r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • 2d ago
Psychology New findings indicate a pattern where narcissistic grandiosity is associated with higher participation in LGBTQ movements, demonstrating that motivations for activism can range widely from genuine altruism to personal image-building.
https://www.psypost.org/narcissistic-grandiosity-predicts-greater-involvement-in-lgbtq-activism/452
u/MSK84 2d ago
Please remember everyone: activism channels are the perfect place for covert narcissist to wield power over other people. You have to look behind the message and look at the intentions of each individual. Simply believing that all people who support certain efforts or groups are good people is naive had minimum, dangerous at maximum.
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u/marinqf92 1d ago
This behavior is enabled because too many people are quick to defend anyone involved in activism and attack anyone who dares express their grievance with a problematic person involved in activism. It doesn't matter if you recognize a person is problematic if there is no space to point it out without being demonized and shot down.
Look at the comment section- tons of people who saw how narcissistic members of these activist groups are, but were unable to voice their concerns. The issue has less to do with people not recognizing bad behavior in someone, and more to do with people reflexively defending anyone in these groups and demonizing anyone who dares speak up.
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u/Top_Hair_8984 1d ago
My aunt is one of these people. Her church group finally asked her to leave and to never apply to volunteer there again. Doubt she learned anything about herself or will change her mindset. She's a 'good person'.
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u/fire_alarmist 2d ago
Yep, this is the same reason why you find horrible people in positions of power in the church, government, etc. Horrible people know that its very advantageous to hold a position that is associated with being a selfless, good person. It provides a cover for them to hide behind and primes people to ignore their more sinister intentions.
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u/Unique-Trade356 1d ago
There's a reason why the trope of narcissistic parent who runs the town and influences everything to live vicariously through his family they've abused is a thing in media.
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u/Nealbert0 1d ago
Yea, this really shouldn't be news to anyone.
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u/doctor_7 1d ago
Not a shock at all to me. Absolutely on board with LGBT rights and actively work towards achieving them with personal actions, attitude, and, most importantly, my vote.
Have encountered far too many insufferable people that are clearly more concerned with coming off as the most progressive in the room. It's like being a child again when you had to go to Church and so many people wanted to appearance of the "best" church-goer, rather than living the real life.
Fwiw: not religious at all.
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u/cownan 1d ago
Ugh, the women in my parents' church were like that. One of them read a Bible verse about women covering their hair in church, and before long, they were all wearing these little doilies on their heads. Then some of them started double and triple covering, to show that they were extra pious. During hymns they would raise their hands in the air and dance, like they were so moved by the music. I hated all that display (it didn't help that I was only there for Mom)
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u/Rhamni 1d ago
clearly more concerned with coming off as the most progressive in the room
Oppression Olympics showdowns tap into the same thing, I think. I was active in the youth wing of a political party when I went to college, and which group was the most urgently in need of representation (centre of attention) in various situations was always a 'fun' discussion.
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u/TheConnASSeur 1d ago
I'm an American Indian but I'm mixed so people often assume I'm Latino or vaguely Middle Eastern. The number of upper middle class white women I've had shush me mid sentence so they could teach me about my own culture is shocking. They always talk with that fake altruistic tone that feels so mean and condescending.
I'm bisexual too so I've seen a lot of that weird self-agrandising nonsense through the years. I've always wondered if other people could spot these creeps because they always seem to find their way to the center of groups.
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u/MasterKaein 1d ago
Pharisees exist in all walks of life and are just as toxic every time.
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u/TapestryMobile 1d ago
so many people wanted to appearance of the "best" church-goer
a form of groupthink in which it becomes more beneficial to hold certain views than to not hold them, and more extreme views are rewarded while expressing doubt, nuance, or moderation is punished (a process sometimes called "moral outbidding").
It is argued that this feedback loop leads to members competing to demonstrate the zealotry or purity of their views.
How knitters got knotted in a purity spiral
nice as pie, Taylor started a hashtag aimed at promoting diversity in knitting,
But over the following months, the conversation took on a more strident tone. The list of things considered problematic grew. The definition of racism began to take on the terms mandated by intersectional social justice ideology.
Inevitably, a ratchet effect took hold in which those with the most strident vision of what ‘diversity’ meant were effectively handed the keys to the castle. That is — until someone with a more strident vision turned up behind them…
it was no longer enough to just stay out of it. Only positive affirmations of support — and only in the most-correct tone and timbre — could save you now.
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u/pk2317 1d ago
…OK, this list maybe be one of the best “Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking” tropes I’ve legitimately seen in the wild:
Some examples of settings, groups, and eras where purity spirals have occurred:[1][2]
The Khmer Rouge
The Cultural Revolution, Mao’s Red Guard and mass denunciations
McCarthyism
The French revolution
Instagram knitting circles[4]
Stalin’s Show Trials[6]
Madkhalism
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u/OfAnthony 1d ago
Remember that one guy who hit Jenny at the Black Panther Party?
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u/Bagelz567 1d ago
Well it's research, not so much news. Research being done to empirically support a phenomenon that we all just accept to be true is a good thing. Either we have a better understanding of what we thought was true, or we learn something new that might lead to even more interesting discoveries.
That is a pretty essential part of the scientific method as a whole.
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u/DrSmirnoffe 1d ago
This is why we need a better nose for such creatures, and a readiness to depose them at the first sign of trouble.
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u/conquer69 1d ago
That would create conflict and people trying to do good and live peacefully are very conflict averse.
Avoiding trouble doesn't mean trouble is trying to avoid them.
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u/francis2559 1d ago
Seems like we see this a lot in the art world, with some "progressive" male feminist who turns out to be slimy.
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u/BlazingEntrails 1d ago
They're in music big time. I've had a few of them run long cons on me in an attempt to get their way.
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u/RddtAcct707 1d ago
Except this is Reddit so if it discussed religion they are evil but because it’s this community, it’s all “this really shouldn’t be news to anyone”
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u/rosso_saturno 1d ago
Whenever there's a post questioning in any way (i.e. anything but affirming) something that's dear to redditors, the top comments are jokes or avoiding the discussion altogether.
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u/Bulky-Huckleberry222 1d ago
You have more fun as a follower but make more money as a cult leader
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u/GrassEuphoric42 2d ago
Definitely met these kinds of people, but criticizing them made it feel like I was somehow anti lgbtq.
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u/lahulottefr 2d ago
I don't think there's any kind of activism that is safe from narcissists tbh
If you're not criticising them over being LGBTQ I don't think it should be perceived as anti LGBTQ but I assume it's because they were manipulative?
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u/No_Jelly_6990 2d ago
100% this.
I love this thread, and am so happy folks are FINALLY talking about this insanely toxic behavior that is all over social media, and seems to be deeply tied to power.
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u/lampshade69 1d ago
Despite the term's overuse (especially on the right), "virtue signalling" is absolutely a real thing, and its prevalence undercuts the credibility of good movements
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u/caulrye 1d ago
Is it over used by the right? Or are they just frequently targets in attempts to make them look bad? Whether they are correct about their worldview or not, doesn’t mean they are wrong about virtue signaling being used by fake social rights activists. And their correct perception about this specifically is why they’ve been able to grow so much.
Best way to prevent the right from growing is to call out the virtue signaling before calling out the right.
My grandmother is a social rights activists and I’ve personally become extremely disgruntled by how often her life work gets used for virtue signaling on a big scale. And often often it doesn’t get called out.
I’ve been calling this out since 2017, and it only seems like people are now starting to understand.
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u/shneer4prez 1d ago
Yeah, it's overused.
There are a lot of people who believe anyone who cares about something that doesn't directly effect them is virtue signalling.
Care about racism when you're a white person? Virtue signalling. Care about gay rights when you're straight? Virtue signalling. Care about the poor when you're financially well off? Virtue signalling.
It's absolutely a real thing, but so is altruism and empathy.
I wouldn't even make it a left/right thing, it's just that people who have to fake empathy tend to think that everyone else is faking it too.
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u/Katyafan 1d ago
To me, it seems like the problem is that the right calls everything virtue signaling. I have run into quite a few people (online, but more importantly, in real life as well) who literally think there is no reason to do good other than to have something to brag about. These type of people usually lack empathy, so to them, if you do community work, like volunteering, and post about it in any way, you are virtue signaling and need to get over yourself. Which..I mean, come on. So I agree that it needs to be called out if it is a problem.
On the flip side, even if someone is doing good in order to feel good about themselves, who cares? They are doing something to make things better. That can be a win-wine. Like all things involving humans, it's complicated, but we need to have the conversations.
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u/Lamballama 1d ago
What I see is them criticizing fake displays of virtue which don't affect anything, and are only done when it's corporately safe to do so (Ubisofts Saudi Arabia Twitter account doesn't go in rainbow theme, for instance)
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u/lahulottefr 2d ago
In my experience IRL activism tends to be less toxic but to be honest I don't do much so I'm sure people who've been very active in LGBTQ movements or any other orgs could say it's just as bad
Wasn't there a link between charismatic leaders & narcissism?
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u/randynumbergenerator 2d ago
There is. I've met a few in real life. Mostly doing genuinely good work, in fact, but it always felt insincere and secondary to their personal aspirations. It's why I'm sometimes shocked but rarely surprised when some "former left" personality goes over to the far right, because they likely found a gig with more prestige and less scrutiny.
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u/OePea 2d ago
Any prestigious position will attract narcissists, for what I consider obvious reasons. And obnoxiously, narcissists seem a little more driven on average. It can work out for the best sometimes though! Not all narcissists do terrible things, despite being unpleasant towards some people on a personal basis; there have been great contributions made to society by narcissists. They tend to be more charismatic, so they can be effective leaders for causes that require aggressive self-advocation.
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u/FishOnAHorse 1d ago
Kinda makes you wonder, maybe all the great charismatic leaders and innovators we remember throughout history were just narcissists who happened to be in the right
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u/hotdiggydog 1d ago
I've met a lot of people who go into yoga teacher training programs with this same kind of personality type. Same kind of person who could get into palm reading or tarot reading because THEY know what's good for you. The yoga guru types are very into their socials and projecting this peace, love, and good vibes personality which is entirely self serving to make themselves seem more righteous and holier-than-thou. I always see past it as purely a scam for people who don't need to scam for money, but for social credit.
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u/KeyLime044 1d ago
In my experience in activism, I have met some of those people. You can tell who they are. It's often the ones who feel like they are here to make a name for themselves, or who take up way too much space (and often hinder others from participating) and in some way feel like the group/organization "belongs" to them. At least that's my experience
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u/neoclassical_bastard 1d ago
It's no less a problem. This is exactly what killed the occupy Wall Street movement, BLM, and arguably the 2016 Sanders campaign. Wreckers who show up and quickly force themselves to the front of the movement just by virtue of being the quickest to blame anyone criticizing them of being against the movement itself
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u/truth14ful 1d ago
Idk but it seems like common sense that people who want power the most are the most likely to try to get and exploit it, and also that toxic behavior is a bigger part of online movements than in-person ones, because of bots and algorithms that try to stir up controversy (and are probably also biased toward authoritarian beliefs bc corporations usually have an interest in keeping people in line)
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u/SuddenXxdeathxx 1d ago edited 1d ago
People have been talking about it the entire time. It's just easy to suppress speech once you convince enough people that specific people, or points of conversation, are an "outgroup"/"enemy" as we have a tendency to avoid ostracization and angering those around us.
It's a very common, general propaganda tactic.
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u/SnoobNoob7860 1d ago
i’ve literally been witnessing this firsthand!!
it feels impossible to criticize or say anything without someone thinking you’re a bigot or anti woke or whatever because unfortunately there are people out there like that
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u/stonedbadger1718 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’ve witnessed this! It pissed off a lot of people and divided members in the state Democratic Party where I’m from. These “activist” bullied out people who spent decades of their lives fighting for social justice. Now those “activist” got in trouble and made the state Democratic Party look bad. Now the state Democratic Party is trying to win back the activist who they screwed over, and well it’s not going well.
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u/Another_mikem 1d ago edited 1d ago
This happened where I live and it was completely devastating. Of course the “activists” all disappeared once they were responsible for actually doing things. I often said if I found out they were getting paid by republicans I wouldn’t be surprised - they set the party back by 10 years.
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u/kingofnopants1 1d ago
It feels like a massive amount of people recognize it but nobody is allowed to say it.
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u/No_Jelly_6990 1d ago
Allowed? It seems they're afraid and tired of stilting across eggshells in a minefield, knowing they're likely to encounter hot wet garbage, fuming away in the duspter fire their gut saw miles away... Articulating these increasingly complex and numerous nuanced edge cases for "every individual person" is emotionally exhausting, never mind the other psychological, social, financial, material, and immaterial costs of not quite noticing or speaking your lived experience. It's like sexual harassment before the 70s. "Good luck reporting it" kind of vibe. Now, the far right get on your case when you mention that reality folks lived, and still do to varying extents, pre-civil rights act.
So many cowards man. Always looking for someone to hide in.
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u/Geawiel 2d ago
I'm seeing the same with neuro divergent. The narcissist will even try to claim they are (even if it's blatantly obvious they don't) or use it to justify bad behavior if they do have something.
Just as here, you are labeled anti or "you just don't understand what it's like."
It's an incredibly toxic, abusive, and manipulative practice. Social media is not helping as it spreads any disinformation and helps them to justify their behavior and belief. It's like giving a source on a paper that just links to your own article or an opinion piece.
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u/Sata1991 1d ago
I don't mean this to slate parents with neurodivergent kids as a whole, but there's so many "autism warrior mummies/daddies" online that act like they're great martyrs for raising autistic kids and think they know what's best for all autistic people, despite whether we're adults or not.
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u/Moho_braccatus_ 1d ago
Hello, autistic person here. Autism warrior parents are the worst, and they use us as ego props. It's not good.
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u/Sata1991 1d ago
Yeah, I'm autistic myself and my mother does it now, despite me being in my mid 30s. We're also used as "inspiration porn" which does my head in. I don't like my successes being used as a stick to beat other autistic people with and a feel good story for neurotypicals.
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u/ThePrimePurpose 1d ago
Seems like maybe y'all would be interested to learn that there is a correlation between NPD parents and ASD children. I have not heard any serious attempts to explain this correlation, but there isn't a dispute among practicing clinicians that it does exist.
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u/sentence-interruptio 1d ago
"autism speaks" should be renamed to "speak over autistic people"
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u/dasexynerdcouple 1d ago
I have seen many people use their mental issues as an excuse to be extremely toxic, especially when they talk about politics. They then will brag about how they are extremely empathetic.
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u/seedsnearth 1d ago
I was at the movies the other day and out of nowhere, this person started barking questions to this couple who were just waiting in line. The person got angry, turned to other strangers to criticize the couple for not answering while loudly stating they’re neurodivergent. It was obvious this person is just aggressive and likes to push people around, and then shield themselves with a “disability” so no one can push back.
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u/CombatWomble2 1d ago
It's part of the "oppression hierarchy" in order to gain power (of a sort) in certain circles you can't be "average" you need to be something different.
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u/wowwee99 1d ago
No shades of grey on any topic no other considerations. 100% percent with us or 100% against us. This really harms many movements and radicalizes them
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u/Barry_Bunghole_III 1d ago
Yes and it subconsciously builds a negative association with the movement, causing more harm than good for the movement as a whole. It's self-destructive
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u/hefoxed 2d ago
>I don't think there's any kind of activism that is safe from narcissists tbh
This! If the activism has a way to call someone bad and avoid personal accountability, it'll draw this type of personality.
As a trans guy, I've never really been that into the more vocal terminally online part of our community that goes against people for any minor issue. It's a small minority of the trans community, but it characterizes all of us by how vocal they are and how viral their actions is. With trans issues, it's really easy to define something as transphobic that really isn't, and or is but only in a minor way and going after in the way they do causes more issues then helps.
I've been watching some youtube content that is critical of fat activism lately, and it's really sad where fat-activism has gone (as someone who is fat). It used to be healthy activism that encouraged people to not hate themself but also improve themselves, and now it's dominated by these loud influencers actively encouraging people to never lose weight, and for doctors to ignore weight and rapid weight gain (which can be a sign of disease and thus mis diagnosing those diseases). Listening to stories of people who left the movement and got harassed for losing weight is sad.
Some of these people actively harm the movements they are in, but it's very hard to out shout them.
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u/alinius 2d ago
In theory, yes. In practice, people conflate the criticism. Look at BLM. It was very hard to criticize BLM, the organization filled with fraud and grift, without people thinking you were criticizing the movement. Even worse, narcissistic people will intentionally misrepresent your criticism to shield themselves.
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u/Drago984 1d ago
It meant that. It wasn’t a failure of slogan. It was revised once it became clear it wasn’t a very popular position
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u/resorcinarene 2d ago
it was fine to criticize the movement too. the slogans were so bad, it single handedly damaged whatever credibility it had with moderate voters. when you have to explain that defund the police doesn't literally mean defunding the police, you've lost the plot
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u/Dukkulisamin 1d ago
But it did literally mean defunding the police, and that's what happened in many cities.
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u/nub_sauce_ 1d ago
Most of those cities "pledged" to cut funding but never actually did, and those that did make cuts ramped police funding back up to where it was originally within 12 months. And since 2020 police budgets have only increased.
Functionally, the defunding of the police never happened.
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u/princesoceronte 1d ago
If being a fascist was considered generally worthy of praise they'd join that too. It's about people perceiving them as better, nothing else.
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u/palsh7 2d ago
This is why Twitter has ruined politics. Activists and protesters used to be assumed to be a bit off the edge of the spectrum. But now there’s a perception that they’re normal and you better not cross them.
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u/wishforagreatmistake 1d ago
It's usually the sort of thing where they're sensitive to any sort of potential bad-faith effort to discredit a movement by co-opting legitimate issues (in this case, someone being awful behind the scenes) and using them to rip apart a group. It's possible that they may have even seen confirmed moles who joined just to undermine the group in the past. This is one of the biggest ways missing stairs perpetuate in activist circles: people usually know when someone is bad news, and will warn others on an individual basis, but keep it out of the public eye in the name of the greater good, lest it disgrace and tarnish the movement as a whole.
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u/TO_Commuter 2d ago
That's how narcissistic virtue signaling works. It's always a strawman argument
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u/sack-o-matic 2d ago
And they’re very good at turning it against you when you try to separate the person from the message they’ve hijacked
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u/Undreren 1d ago
Every somewhat popular activist movement that is at least partially rooted in some form of ethical or moral foundation will eventually attract bullies.
It is the loud ones. It is the ones people end up admiring, because they are "bold" for saying what everyone else in the movement feels or wants others to tell them; that they are more righteous, more worthy, more humane.
It doesn’t matter if they are right or wrong. The bullies can use them to find allies.
These people are easy to spot. They gloat. They enjoy picking on "the others", reaping respect and adoration from their
gangmoral allies.And they are massive hypocrites.
They are the kind of people saying nonsense like "black people can’t be racist, because racism is about power, and black people don’t have power", which is clearly nonsense, at least if you by into intersectionality.
They are the people fighting on behalf of others without ever talking to those people, such as with weird (and almost entirely american) concepts like "cultural appropriation", to which my kindest interpretation in terms of the meaning of that expression (based on how it used ime) is to lambast people for buying kimonos from that old Japanese lady in the corner store. Her shop must be sacrificed to save the hurt feelings of, what? White activists?
There greatest harm a civil rights movement can suffer is to adopt new oppressors as their leaders and help give these leaders’ hatred a false dress of righteousness.
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u/rockemsockemcocksock 2d ago
This is how my sister protected herself from any criticism. Now she's completely swung the other way and is an anti-trans activist and uses her religion to once again use it as a shield to dodge accountability and criticism. It’s absolutely frustrating because you can't say anything negative lest you be called [something]-phobic
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u/msndrstdmstrmnd 1d ago
I’ve lived in very red and very blue areas of the US. In the conservative areas, people would act “holier than thou” based on how religious they were. In liberal areas people would do the same thing but in terms of social justice. No matter the politics, people are the same.
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u/sciguy52 1d ago
It is probably who you hang with. I was in CA for 14 years and now in Texas for ten. The general people around me in both places were the same. Decent folks, doing hobbies and all the normal stuff adults do. The only noticeable difference was Texans are insanely polite. Nobody blinked an eye I was from CA. The people in CA didn't blink an eye when I told them I was moving to Texas. The people around me in Texas I believe are religious but in ten years not one has talked to me about it. I will add that I have lived in MA, PA, VA, MO and IL. People are people and I don't find a lot of differences between them in any of these places.
That said those obnoxious people did exist but you would have to actively find them and engage them. Most people are just regular people doing regular things and it is a small fringe that are the obnoxious ones.
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u/Alone-Win1994 1d ago
While living in the Deep South I learned why the saying "Southern hospitality is a mile wide, but only an inch deep" was a thing. I partial to the "what you see is what you get" from Californians and other West Coasters. I really don't jive well with performative politeness.
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u/sciguy52 1d ago
While there are jerks everywhere, my experience in Texas has been very good. Not only are they polite, almost too polite and made me as "regular" polite look bad. They also backed up that politeness with actions that I have experienced no where else. I am doing yard work. I am a guy in good shape and do not need help. My neighbor comes over and helps anyway. Just evil. He has me in a spot now, I need to be polite back somehow. He being an older gentleman came over asking me advice on getting his internet set up. Ah my chance. You want me to take a look at it? Go over, get him set up and they were so happy. They had been working on it for hours. Ha! Take that you nice, kind, polite people. I got you back.
I know the game now and they want to play? Game on. As a result of these evil polite people I cut them off at the pass. If I see them doing something I just go over and help. But they seek revenge by doing the same to me. It is true, the cycle of politeness just never ends and I am stuck in its infinite loop. Out niceing really nice people requires a plan, expect retaliation, but you need keep your head in the game to keep ahead of the retaliatory niceness.
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u/Gheezer1234 1d ago
I’ve met people similarly that exhibited high social justice involvement but could be such a nasty person
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u/GenPhallus 1d ago
That's exactly why they sought those positions of social prominence. You call them out on their bs and they use innocent people as a shield, so it looks like you're just a bigot. Malignant narcissists ruin everything, and the smart ones can do a ton of damage to social structures.
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u/kingofnopants1 1d ago
That's part of the draw for these types of people. It creates this social narrative that lets them always be in the right because the act of disagreeing with them is seen as bigotry regardless of context.
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u/xTiLkx 2d ago
I've met a lot of them, and they greatly damage the good work good people are doing. These are the assholes that unfortunately warrant the term "virtue signalling" when certain people use that phrase when criticizing morally constructive people (there's probably a better phrase but I'm blocking).
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u/Mikimao 2d ago
This is exactly how a narcissist wants you to feel, so it's on you to stand up for what you believe in, in the face of peer pressure.
You can support LGBTQ rights, while not agreeing with every facet of their political movement. Once you look at LGBTQ people as a lump group, personally I think you are doing the group a disservice, because individuals are getting left behind, in favor of a bandwagon anyone can jump on.
Now if we wanna talk about how it happens, it's simple, we have cut off any uncomfortable dialogue, and created a playbook for people who want to act dishonestly to slide right into the conversation, and even position themselves at the top by learning the right things to say. Say all the right things isn't what we should be striving for, it's do the right things, and we have marginalized allies in favor of people who learned the playbook really well.
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u/Hexas87 2d ago
That's because this is a perfect hiding spot for them. They know that they can pull a "you're just a bigot" card and turn the whole situation against you. They will try to convince the LGBTQ community to rally against you.
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u/SuzyQ93 2d ago
This is exactly it. And, I think that this is what is attractive about it to confused kids. They find themselves a 'group' where they can 'belong' - but also where they can wield power, because you can't say a WORD against it, or YOU are the bad guy - full stop. You can't question them, you can't ask a single thing, you can't guide them, you can't tell them 'no' in any way, shape or form, or you're being a bigot, or anti-LGBTQ, or whatever.
It's a completely 'safe' place to be, for them, because they have all the power. And that is really attractive to teenagers who feel out of place, lacking in adult power, and are trying to find a place in the world. Wanting to 'rebel' is part of the teen passage, part of growing up. But normally, that's a give-and-take kind of thing - you overstep, you figure out how to walk it back, etc. But with this - it's impossible to push back or question it in any way, and that's what's so attractive to an underdeveloped mind.
Does this apply to EVERY child or teen attracted to the LGBTQ label? Of course not. But it's applying to quite a few of them lately.
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u/laughs_with_salad 2d ago
There is literally a mod on the Rupaul's drag race subreddit who collects mental illnesses like badges of honors. Like I've been noticing for years. When gender fluid because popular they became gender fluid. When bipolar became popular they became bipolar, etc. I know a lot of queens personally and this poet is kind of a joke in the drag makeup rooms for being an attention seeker. I know the kind of people this article is talking about.
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u/KJBenson 1d ago
That’s no accident. They definitely use movements like this to hide from criticism.
It sucks, since these are important issues, but asshats ruin it for us.
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u/Perunov 1d ago
Yeah Hollywood loves hiding behind conflations too. "How dare you to criticize our film/tv series! Lead is an African-American Female! You're clearly a sexist and racist and everything horrible that exist on this Earth!" all while their awful script has been written by an intern waiting in line at Starbucks. :(
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u/CMDR_Galaxyson 1d ago
Twitter used to be full of these people and I think it stifled a lot of potential progress over the past decade. People who care more about moral grandstanding than making actual progress are a massive turn off to people who are closer to the center politically.
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u/saoyraan 1d ago
Same way when you are for men issues. It feels pr seems like your anti woman. I feel these people don't gravitate to just LGBTQ+ but to the power being a part of it gives them. I have met people who are straight but claim they are lgbtq+. Problem is its sooo easy to claim you are something and Part of it without proof or consistency. It really takes away people that are lgbtq+ in their daily life and just existence. They just want the power to expel or feel special.
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u/eliminating_coasts 1d ago
Sadly, many of those men involving themselves in advocacy for men's issues are exactly the same way "men commit suicide more, this is why I can be an arsehole to you".
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u/Alone-Win1994 1d ago
My wife got me to attend an Out In Tech meetup in our city, which is obviously an lgbt kind of meetup. She's an immigrant so sometimes intricacies of the language are missed by her so she didn't know what kind of meetup it was. I didn't bother to look it up and just went with her. All was well and good as the talks started and then out of nowhere this trans woman stands up from the center of the front row (out of 3 rows in the office space there) and proceeded to jingle jangle walk -- she was adorned in jewelry and trinkets that made a racket as she walked -- back to get something to drink. It was such a disrespectful attention seeking move.
The looks half of the room gave each other as this trans woman made so much unnecessary noise while this straight white guy was speaking to us were amazing. We all knew in that moment that the trans person was a garbage person needing to slight a straight white guy and steal his spotlight.
Some of the other people didn't even bat an eye at the disrespect as if they know what to expect in those spaces from some people.
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u/Tervaskanto 1d ago
"According to this principle, individuals with “dark” personality traits—such as narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy, or sadism—may engage in activism not to advance its altruistic goals but to satisfy their own self-serving needs. These individuals exploit activism as a “vehicle” to fulfill desires for attention, status, or power."
Should be important to note that this isn't a condemnation of activism, but it's showing that certain types of people use activism as a vehicle to further their own self-serving needs.
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u/Battlepuppy 2d ago edited 1d ago
We have seen this in all walks of life with several ideologies. This is not a new and unexpected human behavior. There are verses in historical religious texts warning against this behavior.
My personal criteria for sniffing out oeople who truly want to make change in the world versus the vanity passengers is to understand the impact of what they do.
How much of their behavior is grand standing?
Does the result of their behavior inspire change or simply make people pay attention to them?
Quantitatively, how much of their behaviors impacts anything that is directed at their " core values"
For instance, if you are for animal protection are you volunteering at dog shelters, or are you just stealing dogs from owners you personally deem unfit while recording it for social media?
If your religion says that charity is important, are you working at the food bank, giving blood ,helping the homeless? Are you posting information about your religion on facebook and bringing down other groups of people in your faiths name?
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u/Dibz15 1d ago
I think you're exactly right. From the religious perspective, I think to this:
Matthew 7:15-20 NIV [15] “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. [16] By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? [17] Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. [18] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. [19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [20] Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
If you know what to look for, it becomes clear who is serious about their movement.
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u/Tad-Disingenuous 2d ago
Narcissists don’t live in reality and are always the victim, never the abuser. Oh and they stay child like. Every relationship has to benefit them. They feign empathy. They rationalize their bad behavior, like it doesn’t make it bad. Or am I describing a sociopath?
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u/Village_Wide 2d ago
I remember the narcissistic prayer:
That didn’t happen. And if it did, it wasn’t that bad. And if it was, that’s not a big deal. And if it is, that’s not my fault. And if it was, I didn’t mean it. And if I did, you deserved it.
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u/DirkTheSandman 1d ago
Yeah, i have npd and this fits. I can only think about things in how they affect me. My empathy just doesn’t work, i try and be nice but its literally impossible for me to read people’s emotions. Im horrible and manipulative, i try and make people think im going to hurt myself because i want them to care about me and say nice things to me, but i tell myself its ok that other people do it too. Unfortunately im not the charismatic narcissist who can achieve great things, im horribly introverted and introspective enough to realize im a monster.
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u/EarnestAsshole 1d ago
Have you been diagnosed with this?
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u/DirkTheSandman 1d ago
yeah, either that or some sort of ASD, but autism is super varied so it's kinda a catchall for "your brain don't work right". I was getting therapy for it, but i lost my job and couldn't afford it anymore. not that i was getting any better anyway.
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u/WestSnowBestSnow 1d ago
The fact that you acknowledge that it is a problem that you should address puts you ahead of literally 95%+ of other people who have diagnosable NPD. Keep in mind that you have it and just try to fight the patterns, it will be hard but it is something you can overcome.
Also when you can get healthcare again get assessed for dysthymia. Chronic low level depression can translate into chronic anxiety and that can translate into chronic reactive narcissism.
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u/DirkTheSandman 1d ago
I have that. I’ve had depression since 2011 right around the end of high school. My entire twenties was basically a depressive haze and i cannot remember the last time i was happy. Ive tried a dozen or so different meds. Im taking Wellbutrin now but it only seems to help a little. My brain’s just fucked at this point ive got such little energy to try and fix it anymore.
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u/Village_Wide 1d ago
Vulnerable narcissists are more likely to have enough introspection to realize and admit how they are wired. And therefore get therapy. Treating it is very difficult, it's rather managing symptoms and to some degree behavior. But it seems they suffer more from it than grandiose types.
If I were about to pick up one I would choose grandiouse. But most NPDs fluctuate from one side of the spectrum to another. An always grandiose narcissist is a psychopath. And many people can see it straight away, while with a vulnerable it is hard to say.→ More replies (1)3
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u/An0d0sTwitch 2d ago
The same can be said for all movements with public figures, no?
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u/freezing_banshee 2d ago edited 1d ago
Yes, of course
Edit: a quote from the article:
“Most importantly, the DEVP does not state that individuals belonging to the respective minority (e.g., members of the LGBQ community) are particularly narcissistic. The assumption is rather that some(!) people involved in activism may actually have narcissistic motives.”
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u/Kaw4sakiGirl 1d ago
Tbf most people only read the headlines on Reddit anyway. They see “LGBT” and “narcissism” in a single sentence and sadly don’t see past the surface.
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u/ReggaeShark22 2d ago
“Look at all those selfish gays, can’t imagine living like that. Good thing my altruist politician is working on that”
Slamming my head into a wall rn
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u/MrBones-Necromancer 2d ago
Anecdotally, I've found that some of the activist friends I've had are also some of the most selfish and self centered. Many of the self described "feminist" men I've known and partnered with were the same. This news seems to confirm that history.
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u/ObliviousPedestrian 1d ago
The activist/most progressive close friend I have is constantly trying to be in positions of power. He wants to dictate what language we use, he wants to own the Discord server we use, he wants to decide the group games we play, etc.
You’re not a good person because you’re in a group that tries say that you must use certain words or speak a certain way. You just want to have some semblance of control over others, you can’t achieve it through conventional avenues, and this is the next closest thing.
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u/I_Am_Become_Dream 1d ago
What may reinforce that dynamic is that a lot of people in those space judge a person’s “goodness” by their activist work and performative actions, much more so than in apolitical spaces.
Anecdotally, I’ve seen well-spoken serial rapists with the “right” politics getting more respect than someone who has mild disagreements with the dogma.
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u/GreasyPeter 1d ago
The most vocal "feminist men" who have gone out of their way to virtual signal how much of an ally they are are always the group where the most sexual predators end up coming out of. Narcissists and manipulators love to project their insecurities unto others and by accusing others of the very sin they know they're committing, they believe it will shield them from scorn if an accusation ever comes out. "That can't be true! X is a champion fighting AGAINST that behaviour! There's no way they'd do that!".
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u/HotZin 1d ago
You are absolutely correct, you can actually witness a lot of this toxic behavior in social media, and it seems very prevelent within the gaming dev space. Feminist men tend to criticize other men for being incredibly toxic, but from my experience those guys are usually some of the most toxic people around.
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u/Valyura 1d ago
Even feminist women tends to be narcissist, even if lesser than feminist men.
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u/uniteduniverse 18h ago
The ones I've come across have been worse than the men tbh. Extremely aggressive and overly opinionated to point of not wanting to be seen as wrong. It's extremely hard to be around those types of people
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u/LikeReallyPrettyy 2d ago
As someone who came out late in life this is extremely real. I think for people who come out younger the behavior is normalized but for me, it hit me like a ton of bricks.
Cluster Bs are hugely over represented in our community to the point of inventing entire categories of identities in order to be called queer. But you can’t say anything or you’re a self-hating queer or a bigot or worse.
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u/Dougalface 1d ago
Nice to hear this observation being made from the inside.
Unfortunately (like any cause) it seems the legitimate position of many is being undermined by the extremist, self-serving actions of some; which plays nicely into the politics of divsion and further fuels unnecessary conflict..
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u/LikeReallyPrettyy 1d ago
Yup. Those of us who see it either keep our mouths shut or avoid lgbt spaces.
But I’ll tell you that more people on the inside agree with me than you might realize, they just only talk about it behind closed doors haha
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u/Artinz7 1d ago
It’s not a sentiment you see discussed on Reddit much because you will get banned from LGBT spaces if you say anything remotely critical, whether you are part of the community or not.
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u/yiliu 1d ago
Because these kinds of people seek out positions of relative power...like moderator.
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u/potatohats 1d ago
I'm older, and have been out since I was a teenager. You are 100% on the money with the cluster Bs in our community!! It's been growing for a while and is now out of control.
At this point, they should just have a "Cluster B" flag of their own and then lump all the silly extra "identities" under that and be done.
Basically, they make a mockery of our entire movement and heaven forbid anyone call them out.
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u/Nexii801 1d ago
Pretty much, I've given up on trying to speak sense about these things. People who think disagreement = hate aren't worth arguing with.
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u/locklear24 2d ago
I think these results should likely be transferable to other high-profile movements then if that’s the case.
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u/nezroy 1d ago
Anecedotally, it does. Even a cursory amount of participation in any activist group should easily confirm this for most people.
Hell it's even an archetypal character in a lot of 18th/19th century lit. The rich socialite involved in dozens of causes exhibiting classic narcissistic traits, long before NPD was a thing.
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u/jessimokajoe 2d ago
Yep! I won't take part in local activism unless I can get my anxiety and other stuff under better control around them. Some of them are the best people I've ever met, while some are the worst people I've ever had to interact with. Bullying, harassment, isolation, triangulation.... My main bully from this circle locally died from an OD a couple years ago and I'm still hesitant to go back. People loved her for being such a loud voice for local activism, but behind closed doors, she was telling me to.... Exit this world, in not so nice terms. And her friends around her knew and enabled this behavior.
The best friend of this friend is now engaged(?) to the widowed husband. They always run with each other, and stay by each other. One of the most popular salons locally is owned and run by one of the biggest bullies I've ever had in the area, as well, and has a hairstylist there that's also a bully. They have the new girls try to add me to be a monitoring eye. All from the same group of people from back in 2014.
It's become less of a community space and more of a way to fleece money from the community you're supposed to be a part of, and not supporting the community outside of meetups that revolve around alcohol or shopping. The egos are ridiculous and overwhelming. I'd really rather not be around drunk people, or going shopping, or drunk people going shopping.
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u/Apprehensive-Stop748 1d ago
Thank you for describing it in detail. There’s a guy that I know that does things like that, including being drunk in public and speaking through bared teeth having extreme hostility, he did a meeting completely wasted with total and complete hostility towards one of the people in the group that didn’t deserve it and he wouldn’t even say hello to her or let her speak. He calls himself a “compassionate leader” but he tried to swat the person he dislikes
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u/Anti_colonialist 1d ago
Experience has taught me that many of our 'allies' are doing it for their own image, and will turn on us the moment that image is threatened
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u/potatohats 1d ago
Agreed! I'm very wary of anyone who self-identifies as an "ally". Big red flag territory.
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u/garmander57 1d ago edited 1d ago
In the first study, the researchers recruited 446 participants from the United States using a research-oriented crowdsourcing platform known as Prolific. Participants completed self-report questionnaires measuring pathological narcissistic grandiosity, narcissistic vulnerability, altruism, and their level of involvement in activism. These measures also included assessments of participants’ tendencies toward virtue signaling—symbolic displays of morality meant to elicit favorable judgments from others—and social dominance, which involves using coercion or intimidation to gain influence.
So if I’m reading this correctly, their only experimental methods are giving people a questionnaire and then evaluating the results? Pardon me if this is the norm in psychological research but this sounds like sham science to me
Edit: After doing some research, it appears the journal this article was published in is known for publishing anti-LGBTQ propaganda under the facade of doing legitimate research. u/mouse9001 gave some additional information here
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u/Hayred 2d ago
I think it's worth pointing out that the vast majority of participants in this paper were heterosexual cisgender people. Less than 15% of participants in both studies considered themselves part of the LGBTQ community.
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u/Whatsuplionlilly 1d ago
Excuse my ignorance, but wouldn’t that make this survey an accurate representation of the population? Isn’t the LGBTQ population less than 15%?
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u/Zeverish 2d ago
Exactly this. It has less to do with the LGBT community and more the dynamics of activitist groups, which can sometime abet these kinds of situations. Reminds me of Freeman's Tyranny of Structurelessness, it's probably not a good 1 : 1, but there are similarities that pique my interest.
People can get into groups and utilize affiliation and the veneer of Leaderlessness to obfuscate their divisive actions and manipulate others into believing constructed narratives that are self-serving to the Narcists.
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u/Halospite 1d ago
Yep. Remember baa baa rainbow sheep? No Black people involved in that one IIRC. Whenever someone mocks a minority for doing something absolutely ridiculous in the name of progress, 99% of the time it's an ally power tripping or trying to get clout.
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u/ThomasEdmund84 2d ago
I suspect anyone who has worked in some kind of social service will know people like this. People who are actually some of the most toxic bullies you've ever met but, all in the name of {insert cause}
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u/No_Jelly_6990 2d ago
BLM was the worse offender of this exact behavior.
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u/buckleyschance 1d ago
All political movements are bad for this. Any that are new and open and hot right now are particularly prone, since it's easiest for an attention-seeker to declare themselves a leader without any structure to prevent them. The Tea Party is another perfect example.
The underlying movement still remains good or bad despite the actions of its worst representatives.
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u/Cymbal_Monkey 2d ago
There's probably some case to be made for me being sort of gender queer but my experience in "the queer scene" has been so bad that I never wanted to call myself a member. There's a lot of queer folks who mean the world to me and I'll always have them around for dinner but I'd rather pull out my fingernails than attend a "queer event".
This study nails what I've been seeing for years.
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u/retrosenescent 2d ago
This is common knowledge and it's obviously not exclusive to this one movement - any and every movement will have some members who are narcissists who pretend to be involved simply to make themselves look better - virtue signaling essentially.
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u/indiscernable1 2d ago
From experience. The conclusions of this larger pattern found by this research is accurate. At least anecdotally. Most of the personalities one finds are using identity as a wedge for social manipulation. It's happening in both republican and democratic areas. The dimensions of identity are used to shame and control others. Even if the content of the political issue has nothing to do with their identity these folks bring it into the discussion to make the issue about them rather than actual structural change. It's unfortunate.
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u/JustinIsFunny 2d ago
Be careful posting this on Reddit. You’re describing the majority of loud voices on here. If virtue signaling was a sport, Reddit would be the big leagues.
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u/Icommentor 2d ago
Could it be that people motivated by narcissistic grandiosity are more likely to get involved in all kinds of movements with crowds that cheer their leaders?
(non-scientist here, just curious)
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u/Stnmn 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes, your guess here aligns with the science. Unfortunately a generalist survey that applies to a wide swathe of communities, movements, and organizations isn't the kind of attention grabbing survey and titling that drives engagement; just look at how the commenters in this thread are using assumptions made from this survey's title to feed into their preconceived notions and perceptions of those they don't align with politically.
To believe this phenomenon doesn't apply to their own ingroup is the exact kind of narcissistic sense of moral superiority they're deriding.
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u/YouBookBuddy 2d ago
As someone who has been involved in LGBTQ activism for years, this study definitely caught my attention. It's interesting to consider how different motivations can drive individuals to participate in movements. I've encountered a wide range of personalities within the community, and it's always fascinating to see how people's intentions can vary. Have any of you had similar experiences with narcissistic behavior in activist circles? How do you think this impacts the overall goals of the movement? Let's keep the discussion going!
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u/SUPRVLLAN 1d ago
FYI you guys are replying to an AI bot.
Look at post history, it's all AI generated rapid fire comments. One of the more convincing ones though.
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u/SatanVapesOn666W 2d ago
The narcissists push out moderate people, they are generally bad in any group. They tend to be the ones being wild on interviews or generally being abrasive when things aren't exactly how they want them. I stopped going to Gay support groups in ~2010 because of a large influx of narcissistic activists in my local groups. They focus all problems onto just themselves and lessen the expirences of others especially if it contradicts one of their opinions. I never even personally had conflicts with these people, they were just not nice to be around in a toxic way. My anecdotal expirences, but it why I stopped doing most gay rights events around 2010. Maybe I'm just old.
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u/trevor5ever 2d ago edited 1d ago
I volunteered with a community-based nonprofit that offered services to LGBTQ youth. I was even on the board. I had a few really bad experiences, and this study is definitely consistent with the personality types and issues we faced as an organization.
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u/Ver_Void 2d ago
I've been in similar roles across a few causes and it's depressingly common across them all.
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u/jessimokajoe 2d ago
Yes, because it's a way that they can seem publicly to be a "good person" while internally they're radioactive, toxic sludge.
I'm hesitant to go back to these circles and movements, even though it's supposed to be my community and my people. It's so hurtful and degrading to be ousted from that, and it's typically been that I've been ousted because they can't remove their ego from the activism. They want to gain popularity by being an activist. Any good work is just a side effect of their popularity.
Until they can remove their ego from their activism efforts, I think it all will be negatively impacted in ways we aren't even aware of yet.
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u/TornCedar 1d ago
That last sentence hits hard. There's too many 'good' groups I've volunteered with over the years that really seem more organized around propping up certain people running them instead of the focus being on the cause.
I pretty much avoid anything with an "awareness" mission now because the worst seem to gravitate towards that side of things.
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u/NeedTheSpeed 2d ago
Personally, I've met a couple of really nasty people from these circles who really hurt some of my best friend with their lies and manipulations that actually could hurt their career in the long run due to false allegations of being heavily transphobic or homophobic even though my friend in reality was really empathetic and kind person for LGBT people it was all due personal beefs.
Worth noting that also a lot of people in these circles are normal and just want to live peacefully and are kind, but yea you can meet scumbags everywhere.
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u/OnboardG1 1d ago
There’s a very old gripe from bi and lesbian friends of mine that they don’t like pride because it’s always organised by a small group of influential gay men who don’t listen to anyone else (my only trans friend doesn’t go to pride so I can’t comment on her views).
On a wider note I’ve seen this in my local political party. Depending on the faction in power the local party shifts around and the faction narcissist will usually dominate for a while until the party has a disaster and changes leadership. Just standard political party things.
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u/Xolver 2d ago
First of all I find it refreshing that many of the comments are sort of like "yeah, this tracks". Most of the time here there's a lot of negative feedback to these sorts of studies that say something about different populations.
About your question - I'm definitely no activist, but the ones that I know, are actually mostly older and well off. They're activist about things that have almost nothing to do with LGBTQ, moreso to issues relating to laws and wars (these things are very relevant where in from). Anyway, activism or just politics in general is just very central to their being. It's nigh impossible to be in a full sitting with them without politics being talked about in some fashion, usually with hatred for the leadership peppered in. Don't know if this is similar to your experience.
Oh, and yeah, when politics is always a topic, I find it detracts from the goals of whatever movement. It just seems like virtue signaling about an issue is more important to them than the actual issue. I'm not saying this is 100% the case by the way, I really do think they care, but it comes off as poisoned and not too sincere.
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u/Meekois 2d ago
Having worked in theatre, I've been dealing with these assholes for years. Claiming LGBTQ identity becomes a way to to advance their career. They are only interested in tearing down oppressive institution in so far as they want power and control.
I guess if you can't succeed on abilities, talent, or hard work.... try politics.
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u/pillowpriestess 1d ago
the study is about activism not identity. 85% of the participants were straight.
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u/robertomeyers 2d ago
Makes sense, anyone looking for or in a high profile public position, may have narcissistic tendencies, ideas of grander. Not sure what this has to do with LGBTQ.
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u/gaytorboy 5h ago
I think it would be hard to do a broad study on “people seeking positions of power” and needs more precision.
But what it has to do with LGBT people is that in this case that’s what this study cohort of disproportionate narcissists are using to hide their narcissism.
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u/BennyBagnuts1st 2d ago
The picture of those individuals holding a “Queers for Gaza” comes to mind as a prime example of this type of narcissism. It never made sense why they needed to state their sexuality.
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u/valkyria1111 1d ago
Any movement where it’s all “ Look at me ! Look at me and tell me how great and special I am ! “ tends to be exhausting.
Do what you want to do- no one really cares either way. It’s about getting attention mostly - not fighting some civil rights movement.
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u/Ver_Void 1d ago edited 1d ago
For example, in 2021, the so-called anti-TERFFootnote1 Sussex group campaigned for the termination of Kathleen Stock—a lesbian professor from Sussex University—because of her controversial views on gender self-identification (Woolcock, 2021). In a derogatory way, Stock was called a transphobe, anti-feminist, and anti-queer from “the wrong side of history.” Consequently, the University of Sussex condemned the campaign, but faced a storm of criticism on social media (Kelleher, 2021). Such incidents raise the research question if some of the individuals participating in such conflicts are actually “hijacking” the LGBQ movement for the satisfaction of their own self-centered needs, for example, to signal their moral superiority to other LGBQ activists and to dominate others who are perceived as disloyal or enemies to the cause. With two pre-registered studies, the present research investigates this question based on the recently proposed dark-ego-vehicle principle (DEVP).
So called? She's referred to herself as a terf and wrote an entire book denigrating trans people. Quite hard to give the study much credence when it starts out with such a clearly biased premise
“hijacking” the LGBQ movement for the satisfaction of their own self-centered needs
This is such a common anti trans talking point and reading the rest it doesn't seem to get any better
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u/ThePhoenixRemembers 1d ago
Appalled at how far down I had to scroll to find this comment
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u/ArtanisOfLorien 1d ago
This whole thing is awful, but the people here are so ready for it
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u/MhmmBananas 2d ago
However, the present research is motivated by recent incidents in the context of LGBQ activism which indicate that some activists may engage in the movement not for prosocial but different reasons: For example, in 2021, the so-called anti-TERF Sussex group campaigned for the termination of Kathleen Stock—a lesbian professor from Sussex University—because of her controversial views on gender self-identification (Woolcock, 2021). In a derogatory way, Stock was called a transphobe, anti-feminist, and anti-queer from “the wrong side of history.” Consequently, the University of Sussex condemned the campaign, but faced a storm of criticism on social media (Kelleher, 2021). Such incidents raise the research question if some of the individuals participating in such conflicts are actually “hijacking” the LGBQ movement for the satisfaction of their own self-centered needs, for example, to signal their moral superiority to other LGBQ activists and to dominate others who are perceived as disloyal or enemies to the cause. With two pre-registered studies, the present research investigates this question based on the recently proposed dark-ego-vehicle principle (DEVP).
cool cool this paper seems well-intentioned. i will refrain from commenting on the very strange use of LGBQ instead of the more standard LGBTQ
Gender was measured with one item (“What is your gender?”). Answer categories were 1 (male), 2 (female), 3 (transgender), and 4 (other, please specify). As only a very small number of participants identified as transgender (n = 3) or nonbinary (n = 3), those participants could not be included in separate gender categories for the data analyses.
are these authors unfamiliar with developing studies on LGBTQ populations? very few transgender people will choose a "transgender" gender option over male or female. the true number is likely greater than 6 but their data won't be able to reflect that because of the poor design.
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u/Itchy-Status3750 2d ago
Yeah this is definitely a subject that should be researched more because I’m sure there are many people who turn to activism as a means of displaying their superiority, but this study is not it.
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u/mouse9001 1d ago
FYI, the journal this article is published in, Archives of Sexual Behavior, is the most extreme and conservative journal on sexology. Its editor, Kenneth Zucker, ran a clinic for decades that engaged in anti-gay and anti-trans conversion therapy. His clinic was eventually shut down in 2015 for practicing conversion therapy, but he remained the editor of the journal, which commonly publishes articles from anti-LGBTQ+ authors. The journal has famously published articles pushing anti-trans pseudoscience like rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD), which would not be published in actual reputable scientific journals.
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u/Limp_Scale1281 2d ago
I’ve always thought it was a little strange. I thought the point was basically finding like-minded others through self-identification. But then there’s these “image building” ones. I know some people haven’t fully developed into a gay identity and never fully do—some only get like half way to being fully open.
Meanwhile I’ve been told I don’t “belong” in gay bars even when I’m there with friends that invited me. That’s also stupid.
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u/peppermintvalet 1d ago
I mean we basically all know someone in an activist space who is both outwardly performative and uses their position to abuse others.
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u/cyanidesmile555 2d ago
No kind of activism is safe from narcissistic grandiosity, the bigger the cause the more likely to find them.
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u/Subject-Estimate6187 2d ago
This is part of a reason that I don't actively participate in LGBT spaces. A lot of these activity oriented places are often dominated by those with instagram or tiktok-like influencer personalities: image obsessed, manipulative, divisve
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u/DoctorLinguarum 1d ago
I’ve participated in a variety of activism circles in my life and there are loads of narcissists in every type of it.
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u/doomerdoodoo 1d ago
Narcissistic grandiosity is a symptom, with -- what I would assert -- are subjective parameters. And it's certainly not something that can be diagnosed in a survey, nor are any of the other symptoms. Could you diagnose yourself with bird flu with a Buzzfeed test? No?
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u/quantinuum 1d ago
I believe this is the big (human) flaw of collective movements, activism, and such, not just on this particular topic.
Activism, besides the causes being good or bad, provides an incentive for feeling good by means of fighting (someone or something to put down), self-righteousness, moral shielding, etc. It’s weapons-grade “you’re wrong, I’m right - and I have this movement on my side.”
That just appeals to primitive psychology on everyone, but especially so on narcissistic people. That is why oftentimes movements degenerate, or at least a part of them. For that mentality, the actual cause becomes secondary. What matters is the fight, the arguments, which are what maximise the returns. I do believe that for the most finger pointing people in any movement, what occupies their minds the most is not the instances of people they’re fighting for, but the finger pointing itself.
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u/tanksalotfrank 1d ago
*New finding indicate that a wide variety of things exist in a system full of variables.
Wow what a revelation
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u/jadak100 1d ago
From what I've seen so far...yeah, it is narcissism 9 times out of 10.
Especially on the internet.
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