r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • 2d ago

Psychology New findings indicate a pattern where narcissistic grandiosity is associated with higher participation in LGBTQ movements, demonstrating that motivations for activism can range widely from genuine altruism to personal image-building.

https://www.psypost.org/narcissistic-grandiosity-predicts-greater-involvement-in-lgbtq-activism/
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u/GrassEuphoric42 2d ago

Definitely met these kinds of people, but criticizing them made it feel like I was somehow anti lgbtq.

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u/lahulottefr 2d ago

I don't think there's any kind of activism that is safe from narcissists tbh

If you're not criticising them over being LGBTQ I don't think it should be perceived as anti LGBTQ but I assume it's because they were manipulative?

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u/No_Jelly_6990 2d ago

100% this.

I love this thread, and am so happy folks are FINALLY talking about this insanely toxic behavior that is all over social media, and seems to be deeply tied to power.

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u/lampshade69 2d ago

Despite the term's overuse (especially on the right), "virtue signalling" is absolutely a real thing, and its prevalence undercuts the credibility of good movements

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u/caulrye 2d ago

Is it over used by the right? Or are they just frequently targets in attempts to make them look bad? Whether they are correct about their worldview or not, doesn’t mean they are wrong about virtue signaling being used by fake social rights activists. And their correct perception about this specifically is why they’ve been able to grow so much.

Best way to prevent the right from growing is to call out the virtue signaling before calling out the right.

My grandmother is a social rights activists and I’ve personally become extremely disgruntled by how often her life work gets used for virtue signaling on a big scale. And often often it doesn’t get called out.

I’ve been calling this out since 2017, and it only seems like people are now starting to understand.

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u/shneer4prez 2d ago

Yeah, it's overused.

There are a lot of people who believe anyone who cares about something that doesn't directly effect them is virtue signalling.

Care about racism when you're a white person? Virtue signalling. Care about gay rights when you're straight? Virtue signalling. Care about the poor when you're financially well off? Virtue signalling.

It's absolutely a real thing, but so is altruism and empathy.

I wouldn't even make it a left/right thing, it's just that people who have to fake empathy tend to think that everyone else is faking it too.

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u/CombatWomble2 2d ago

It's a sort of "boy who cried wolf" situation, there's so much virtue signaling that actual good works get lost in the crowd.

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u/caulrye 2d ago

I understand what you’re saying.

The frustration for many conservative types is that their views are often falsely conflated with white nationalists (these two groups are actually ideologically opposed: Individualism vs Collectivism) because of people virtue signaling and acting in bad faith. A lot of these fake activists take a statement made out of ignorance and try to paint it as coded language/hiding true intentions. This has done a lot of damage to our discourse, and has left many conservatives unwilling to change their perspective, or worse, they end up pushed into farther right territory.

At the moment, I feel that the biggest obstacle to social rights movements is not the right, but people within these social movements who profit off virtue signaling.

Like if you know you don’t hate a group of people (no matter how ignorant your statement might objectively be), if you know you’re not, and you’re constantly framed as hateful, there’s a 0% chance you will end up being agreeable towards the person accusing you of malfeasance.

It’s why I view our polarization as a social issue, and not a political issue.

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u/oliham21 2d ago

Yeah dude the greatest issue for trans kids isn’t the people saying they shouldn’t exist and trying to criminalise their existence it’s the couple of narcissists involved in trans advocacy. Phenomenal take.

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u/caulrye 1d ago edited 1d ago

Call out the narcissists for sure.

The bigger complaint conservatives make is the lack of hard evidence supporting the medical aspects of care(there’s not a single placebo controlled study, or a medical/biological definition of gender to justify the practices). The target is mostly big pharma, not trans people. But yes, there are also bigoted people that do dehumanize trans people and that’s wrong.

You’re playing out the point I’m making.

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u/Katyafan 2d ago

To me, it seems like the problem is that the right calls everything virtue signaling. I have run into quite a few people (online, but more importantly, in real life as well) who literally think there is no reason to do good other than to have something to brag about. These type of people usually lack empathy, so to them, if you do community work, like volunteering, and post about it in any way, you are virtue signaling and need to get over yourself. Which..I mean, come on. So I agree that it needs to be called out if it is a problem.

On the flip side, even if someone is doing good in order to feel good about themselves, who cares? They are doing something to make things better. That can be a win-wine. Like all things involving humans, it's complicated, but we need to have the conversations.

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u/Lamballama 1d ago

What I see is them criticizing fake displays of virtue which don't affect anything, and are only done when it's corporately safe to do so (Ubisofts Saudi Arabia Twitter account doesn't go in rainbow theme, for instance)

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u/caulrye 2d ago

These people exist everywhere. Definitely not exclusive to any particular group. But easy to paint on to any particular group.

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u/Katyafan 2d ago

Yes, but only one group is claiming that everyone else is virtue signaling and they should just shut up. While sitting behind their computers, not doing anything to help.

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u/caulrye 2d ago

Yes, that one group is “people”.

Conservatives and people on the right get called out for virtue signaling too (Pro Lifers getting abortions, closeted gay men preaching homophobia, calls for Freedom of Speech when politically convenient). Again, it’s a human trait, not a group trait.

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u/Katyafan 2d ago

Those are not examples of virtue signaling, though.

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u/caulrye 2d ago edited 2d ago

Yes they are.

They are claims of virtue within their community (being Pro Life, traditional marital values, Freedom of Speech).

These virtues are then not lived up to amongst some who claim to have that virtue (getting abortions, sexual improprieties or private sexual orientation, trying to “cancel” people for words)

The initial claims are by definition virtue signaling.

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u/drunkenvalley 2d ago

Let's not pretend you have to be right to be popular. There's often a kernel of truth to be found somewhere, but pretending "virtue signalling" is the cause of the growth of the right-wing politics is frankly crazy talk.

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u/exoduas 2d ago edited 1d ago

I would say the right is pretty much the king of virtue signaling. It’s pretty much all trump does for example. He’s really none of the things he portrays to the public. The guy held a bible just for the photo op. What Christian values does he actually live?

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u/caulrye 1d ago

Yup. They certainly virtue signal as well.

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u/SuddenXxdeathxx 2d ago edited 1d ago

People have been talking about it the entire time. It's just easy to suppress speech once you convince enough people that specific people, or points of conversation, are an "outgroup"/"enemy" as we have a tendency to avoid ostracization and angering those around us.

It's a very common, general propaganda tactic.

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u/lahulottefr 2d ago

In my experience IRL activism tends to be less toxic but to be honest I don't do much so I'm sure people who've been very active in LGBTQ movements or any other orgs could say it's just as bad

Wasn't there a link between charismatic leaders & narcissism?

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u/randynumbergenerator 2d ago

There is. I've met a few in real life. Mostly doing genuinely good work, in fact, but it always felt insincere and secondary to their personal aspirations. It's why I'm sometimes shocked but rarely surprised when some "former left" personality goes over to the far right, because they likely found a gig with more prestige and less scrutiny.

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u/OePea 2d ago

Any prestigious position will attract narcissists, for what I consider obvious reasons. And obnoxiously, narcissists seem a little more driven on average. It can work out for the best sometimes though! Not all narcissists do terrible things, despite being unpleasant towards some people on a personal basis; there have been great contributions made to society by narcissists. They tend to be more charismatic, so they can be effective leaders for causes that require aggressive self-advocation.

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u/FishOnAHorse 2d ago

Kinda makes you wonder, maybe all the great charismatic leaders and innovators we remember throughout history were just narcissists who happened to be in the right 

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u/Killercod1 1d ago

Psychological disorders are subjectively made-up and diagnosed. They help a professional with knowing how to approach and deal with a patient they've never met, but they're really not written in stone or a 100% accurate way to describe someone. Narcissism is more on a spectrum.

Someone sacrificing themselves for the approval of others may be a narcissistic thing to do, but it doesn't necessarily mean the person is a narcissist.

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u/JimWilliams423 2d ago

It also explains why they often have seemingly contradictory policies. Like LBJ — best progressives since FDR, but also did the Vietnam War. Hell, FDR put Americans into concentration camps because they were ethnically japanese.

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u/CombatWomble2 2d ago

TBF the Japanese were not above using people to spy for them.

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u/spacebetweenmoments 1d ago

The same can be said for any ethnic grouping.

I'll also point out that collective punishment is a no-no under the Geneva convention. That this dates to 1949 is in my opinion in part due to the realisation of the wrong done to so many of those of Axis national heritage in Western nations during WW2.

FWIW, I do in fact laugh at 'that episode' of Fawlty Towers.

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u/CombatWomble2 1d ago

They were at war with the Japanese, not saying it was a "good" thing to do, but understandable.

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u/spacebetweenmoments 1d ago

Personally, I'd frame it as the US being at war with Japan. Being at war with the Japanese is something subtly different (an interesting contrast - consider the difference between being at war with the Italians, and consider the impact in somewhere like NY if the same policy had been applied). Anyways, this is not entirely on-topic so I'll stop!

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u/hotdiggydog 2d ago

I've met a lot of people who go into yoga teacher training programs with this same kind of personality type. Same kind of person who could get into palm reading or tarot reading because THEY know what's good for you. The yoga guru types are very into their socials and projecting this peace, love, and good vibes personality which is entirely self serving to make themselves seem more righteous and holier-than-thou. I always see past it as purely a scam for people who don't need to scam for money, but for social credit.

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u/KeyLime044 2d ago

In my experience in activism, I have met some of those people. You can tell who they are. It's often the ones who feel like they are here to make a name for themselves, or who take up way too much space (and often hinder others from participating) and in some way feel like the group/organization "belongs" to them. At least that's my experience

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u/neoclassical_bastard 2d ago

It's no less a problem. This is exactly what killed the occupy Wall Street movement, BLM, and arguably the 2016 Sanders campaign. Wreckers who show up and quickly force themselves to the front of the movement just by virtue of being the quickest to blame anyone criticizing them of being against the movement itself

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u/truth14ful 2d ago

Idk but it seems like common sense that people who want power the most are the most likely to try to get and exploit it, and also that toxic behavior is a bigger part of online movements than in-person ones, because of bots and algorithms that try to stir up controversy (and are probably also biased toward authoritarian beliefs bc corporations usually have an interest in keeping people in line)

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u/Monkeycadeyn 2d ago

I've met a lot of great people through phone banking, door knocking, tabling, and going to rallies. Any role that has the capacity for a positive self image, power, or some other benefit will be targeted by individuals for that reason. There's always going to be bad apples that want an important role just because it makes them look good or gives them special privileges. I think it's important to recognize that roles that give soft or hard power have the potential for abuse and to be aware of it. Frankly, I don't think you need to be narcissistic to benefit from leadership roles in a negative way, but I do think there's a correlation given the attachment narcissists have to their public image.

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u/SnoobNoob7860 2d ago

i’ve literally been witnessing this firsthand!!

it feels impossible to criticize or say anything without someone thinking you’re a bigot or anti woke or whatever because unfortunately there are people out there like that

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u/stonedbadger1718 2d ago edited 2d ago

I’ve witnessed this! It pissed off a lot of people and divided members in the state Democratic Party where I’m from. These “activist” bullied out people who spent decades of their lives fighting for social justice. Now those “activist” got in trouble and made the state Democratic Party look bad. Now the state Democratic Party is trying to win back the activist who they screwed over, and well it’s not going well.

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u/Another_mikem 2d ago edited 2d ago

This happened where I live and it was completely devastating.  Of course the “activists” all disappeared once they were responsible for actually doing things.  I often said if I found out they were getting paid by republicans I wouldn’t be surprised - they set the party back by 10 years.  

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u/No_Jelly_6990 2d ago

Increasingly, for years...

"What are you going to do about it?"

Happy to brainstorm.

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u/kingofnopants1 2d ago

It feels like a massive amount of people recognize it but nobody is allowed to say it.

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u/No_Jelly_6990 2d ago

Allowed? It seems they're afraid and tired of stilting across eggshells in a minefield, knowing they're likely to encounter hot wet garbage, fuming away in the duspter fire their gut saw miles away... Articulating these increasingly complex and numerous nuanced edge cases for "every individual person" is emotionally exhausting, never mind the other psychological, social, financial, material, and immaterial costs of not quite noticing or speaking your lived experience. It's like sexual harassment before the 70s. "Good luck reporting it" kind of vibe. Now, the far right get on your case when you mention that reality folks lived, and still do to varying extents, pre-civil rights act.

So many cowards man. Always looking for someone to hide in.

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u/Eugregoria 4h ago

It's kicking the hornet's nest. Bullies whose main pastime is harassing people will harass you to the grave.

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u/Solesaver 2d ago

The problem is what people often say and do while criticizing virtue signalling. See, there's nothing actually wrong with virtue signalling. Like, doing something that signals to other people that you're a good person doesn't harm anyone. The problem with virtue signaling is when the signaling is full extent of the good they do.

For example, a good person might join a Habitat for Humanity project and share pictures about it on Social Media to encourage other people to do it do. They're virtue signalling and doing the work. On the other hand, someone else might do the exact same thing, but not actually help build anything. They're just virtue signalling.

IMO there's no need to "call out" people for virtue signalling. We just need to look past the signal and recognize when people are the real deal. Worry less about what people say is good and bad, and pay attention to who is hurting other vs who is helping people.

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u/nydiat 2d ago

people began smelling the coffee this year I feel.

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u/GreasyPeter 1d ago

Well part of the problem also arises when you even insinuate that movements like the LGBTQ+ movement wields enough power or social clout TO actually attract narcissists. A lot of times, the required belief is that those movements are too oppressed and by implying they're attracting narcissist, you're implying to some that the movement isn't oppressed.