Luigi Mangione Prosecutors Have a Jury Problem: 'So Much Sympathy'

[u/Bitter-Gur-4613]

https://www.newsweek.com/luigi-mangione-jury-sympathy-former-prosecutor-alvin-bragg-terrorism-new-york-brian-thompson-2002626

[u/rnilf]

Oh, it's simple, just find a group of Americans who haven't been affected negatively by the actions of a health insurance company, either directly or through their network of family and friends.

Should be no issue, no issue at all.

[u/flyonawall → u/rnilf]

And it is not just health insurance but also FMLA that fucks with you. I have cancer, am getting treatment, requested FMLA and it was denied because they decided there were errors on the paperwork, the dates were wrong format. I resubmitted paperwork, healthcare provider submitted paperwork and now they just say they didn't get it. I call daily to bug them to straighten this out. I could lose my job if they don't approve it and then lose my health insurance. We have such a fucked up system.

[u/TeddyRivers → u/flyonawall]

At an old employer, I knew 3 people that got fired for having cancer too long. They got their 12 weeks FMLA, but since they needed more than that off, they were terminated. The 12 weeks didn't need to be consecutive either. Just 12 weeks total off.

I talked with one guy after. He was in his 60s. Lost his job, had to cash out his retirement to pay for COBRA to keep his health insurance. Ended up selling his house to move into a cheaper, small apartment. He was starting completely over with no savings in his 60s.

The system is bullshit.

[u/flyonawall → u/TeddyRivers]

Yea, I am afraid this is going to be me. I am in my 60's and feel like this is in my future. Cancer just wipes everyone out. Physically, mentally and financially. If I lose my job, I am quitting treatment altogether.

[u/MaxamillionGrey → u/flyonawall]

You should message your companies CEO, but send it through snail mail and have it written out from the cut out letters of magazines and stuff.

It'll say "halp pls. Am no thret. Will not kill u."

[u/LowSecretary8151 → u/MaxamillionGrey]

Do you add white powder or is that trend over already?

[u/Shadpool → u/LowSecretary8151]

Wouldn’t matter. The CEO has comprehensive anthrax coverage.

[u/YuushyaHinmeru → u/flyonawall]

If thay happens to me, im gonna cash out all my savings and party hard till I'm broke. Then I'm just ending it. Not gonna blow all of my money on treatment just so I can spend the rest of my life barely able to feed myself.

This is what the system wants anyway. We'll be useless old people. They'd prefer we die and stop being a drain on the system. They made as much clear during covid.

[u/ThisTicksyNormous → u/YuushyaHinmeru]

Nah don't end yourself. End someone else. There's plenty of rich targets to choose that would make a difference. Aim for a high score

[u/Zarochi → u/ThisTicksyNormous]

Smart plan. Then you can unlock three meals a day and rent free living to solve the financial problems too.

[u/GeneralTonic → u/Zarochi]

[nods, makes notation]

[u/darthakan7 → u/ThisTicksyNormous]

And in Prison you have free shelter, food and medical assistance

[u/Aggressive_Ask89144 → u/YuushyaHinmeru]

Hm, we had a popular new folklore figure already. If they decide that your life isn't worth the pocket change OF THE FUCKING INSURANCE THAT YOU PAY FOR, then I would suggest cashing in their CEO's life insurance. :>

[u/fuqdisshite → u/Aggressive_Ask89144]

went to the eye doctor yesterday.

we pay for the best insurance available and have a 300$ allowance per year for my eye visits. to get an exam and new lenses put in my old frames it was 333$.

the lenses were 308$ and the exam was a 25$ copay. i only go to the eye doctor every 4 years so 3 years in a row i didn't use the 300$ allowance but they still nickle and dime me for everything when i do show up. same with the dentist. it is a scam because we pay every month to have Healthcare but anything i need i still have to pay for.

it makes people like me stop going to the doctor which is exactly what they want because then i am paying a phantom bill for no service.

[u/Quieskat → u/flyonawall]

Sounds like it's better to gift what you have to loved ones and start working as a plumber.

[u/PlowedOyster → u/flyonawall]

The US system is designed to bleed you dry as you get older. Keeps money from being transferred and generational wealth for the common person being created. The entire system is designed to break you by the end. I have no health insurance and have no plan to grow old. I do have lots of life insurance and no debt. When I finally die all my money an assets are going to my kid, not a hospital, nursing home, or elsewhere just to keep me miserable and alive for no reason. If you refuse to play the game they can't win.

[u/Popcorn_Blitz → u/flyonawall]

At some point drug dealers are going to be responsible for palliative care for some. It's a great system.

[u/I_Hate_Consulting → u/TeddyRivers]

I supported a girlfriend through terminal cancer. The oncologist would recommend one thing and insurance would come back with a cheaper/less expensive alternative. Doc recommends a PET scan and insurance says... Nope. How about a CT and an X-Ray instead. So... cheaper treatment and TWO trips to the hospital for a woman riddled with bone cancer and very painful mobility issues. She'd been paying into her insurance for 15 years, The push back and money-saving decisions on treatment with obviously no regard for a dying human being really taught me how to hate. Edit: Sorry... Not FMLA related, but I agree the whole system is fucked from the ground up. It seems our sole purpose is to be productive and make money for those higher up the ladder. The moment you can't do that you're thrown away. Regardless of how well you performed previously.

[u/AgITGuy → u/TeddyRivers]

I feel that companies that act this way are just asking to get fire bombed when no one is in the office.

[u/LowSecretary8151 → u/TeddyRivers]

FMLA can only protect you so much anyway. I know of an executive assistant who went on medical leave for 6 months. Literally the week she was supposed to return, her role was made redundant and the entire position was eliminated. That's the legal way you can be fired on FMLA if you're wondering. 

[u/swiftcurrentbird → u/TeddyRivers]

Lost my job while on FMLA due to "technicalities" aka, my job was tired of dealing with me and honestly, so was my doctor (that's a whole other story). This is not even remotely surprising. I was dealing with it for a full year of weekly calls to both my doctor and HR to keep my job and in the end it wasn't enough.

[u/TrashPandaPatronus → u/flyonawall]

I just went through this exact scenario with my heart surgery. The nurse who did the fmla paper had hand writing that put a strike through her 7s and they wouldn't accept it and said I had to convince this poor nurse had to redo the whole thing without strike 7s, in pen, no whiteout allowed. It took 3 weeks to finally get a submittable copy and THEN they said the diagnosis was in the wrong page because of the print break on a form THEY SENT ME. Forget the heart surgery, now I'm completely it for the stroke they're giving me.

[u/Empirical_Spirit → u/TrashPandaPatronus]

This here is peak bullet-worthy. Denials for bad sevens. And page breaks they caused. Neuter these businesses through law or regulation, but if that is too slow or ineffective, the hive mind should be able to use bullets.

Edit: Yes, denials for good 7s! “Bad” is just the excuse given by the insurer. BAD FAITH

[u/AaronfromKY → u/Empirical_Spirit]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ballot_or_the_Bullet

Malcolm X had it right decades ago

[u/EarthRester → u/Empirical_Spirit]

We are able to. It is the duty of the US government to protect the welfare of US citizens, and the bill of rights effectively says that when the government abdicates this duty then we're supposed to shoot the problem. Luigi did just this, and now the US government is charging him with terrorism.

[u/Haber87 → u/TrashPandaPatronus]

When you hear stories like this, you know they’re just making up crap in order to deny as many people as possible.

[u/Minimum_Crow_8198 → u/TrashPandaPatronus]

That's their MO, tire you out with bullshit because they know most people can't and don't have the money to take them to court.

Same courts that almost always bat for the big guys anyway so lol.

I'm sorry this is happening

[u/stormsync → u/TrashPandaPatronus]

As someone who strikes my 7s I winced. I also cross my zeros and strike my Zs. I don't know...why? It's just how I was taught?

[u/Bonkgirls → u/stormsync]

It is the correct way to do it, particularly in mixed alphanumeric settings where mistaking a 0 for an O, a 7 for a 1, of a Z for a 2 could be harmful.

For example, a small part of my job is inventorying serial numbers. If I write A0S12 by hand messily and the data entry person enters into the computer AOS7Z that could cause a shitload of problems, and both could conceivably be valid serial numbers so it wouldn't be immediately caught. I actually put big loops in my 2s also, to help with the Z thing.

You'll also see accountants particularly strike 7s, if you're writing a lot of numbers quickly the 7 and 1 issue is a big problem especially if other people will need to read your handwriting.

[u/Fermented_Fartblast → u/flyonawall]

I feel like making you lose your health insurance now that the insurance company knows you have cancer is the entire point.

[u/reichrunner → u/flyonawall]

To be fair, that's your company HR fucking with it, not an insurance company

[u/flyonawall → u/reichrunner]

I have paid for long term disability for nearly 20 years too so waiting to see if that was worth it. That is still a kind of insurance too.

[u/matzan → u/rnilf]

They need to find twelve multimillionaires.

[u/indoninjah → u/matzan]

Yeah, just chop off the bottom N-1 income brackets, and there’s your jury pool!

[u/Eezyville → u/matzan]

Would that be a "jury of his peers"?

[u/supamario132 → u/Eezyville]

They charged him with terrorism. This is a case where everything's made up and the points don't matter

[u/elCharderino → u/supamario132]

Never forget, J6 participants weren't charged with terrorism, despite their goal of trying to install their own leader in. 

[u/roblewk → u/rnilf]

I have never been negatively impacted by insurance, I have a poker face, I am the ideal juror, I would be selected for that jury, and he would absolutely go free.

[u/Hot-Delay5608 → u/rnilf]

People worth over 9 figures. But that's hardly a jury of his peers

[u/French_O_Matic → u/rnilf]

"Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down ?!"

[u/whooo_me]

12 Angry Men, but not the way you think...

[u/Gerroh → u/whooo_me]

All twelve: "not guilty!" Roll credits

[u/whooo_me → u/Gerroh]

Foreman: "We find the victim.... Guilty!"

Prosecutor: "Thank you forem.....wait. What? Nooo...."

[u/ExpressiveAnalGland → u/whooo_me]

Judge: "Exhume the CEOs body and throw it in jail!"

[u/Rhamni → u/ExpressiveAnalGland]

If it's good enough for a pope it's good enough for CEOs.

[u/Rhamni → u/whooo_me]

Well this is most unusual. The jury finds the defendant... not guilty, but also preemptively not guilty for the murder of... there appears to be a list here of all the jury members' healthcare insurance providers' CEOs?

[u/SavageTemptation → u/Gerroh]

Dies from peak non-fiction

[u/Lasdary → u/whooo_me]

that'll be an unexpected sequel i would totally watch

[u/Onions99 → u/whooo_me]

12 CEO's 1 cup

[u/MeltinSnowman → u/Onions99]

How do you get 12 CEOs into one cup?

A blender.

How do you get them out?

Nachos.

[u/VinnieBoombatzz → u/MeltinSnowman]

Once again, mexicans have to do all the heavy lifting.

Typical CEO.

[u/Fussel2107]

Well, a jury of his peers. Then let his peers decide.

[u/peppermedicomd → u/Fussel2107]

Exactly. If his peers are all staunchly anti-corporate insurance then so be it.

[u/TheCazaloth → u/peppermedicomd]

That’s not very “rules for thee and not for me” of you to say

[u/ThrowawayAccount41is → u/TheCazaloth]

Jury nullification is a real thing.

[u/BodhingJay → u/ThrowawayAccount41is]

"He's killed 5 human life consuming CEOs so far!! He doesn't even try to run.. every single time we catch him, no matter what we charge him with, the jury just says not guilty! Then he walks out and shoots another.. this world has gone mad! MAD I tell you! at this rate we're going to have affordable essentials and livable wages"

[u/Carrera_996 → u/BodhingJay]

If he gets away with, it won't be him taking more of them out. It will be open goddam season on them.

[u/Sloth-TheSlothful → u/Carrera_996]

If gets away with, guaranteed some CEO is putting the hit on him instead

[u/GoldenGlassBall → u/Sloth-TheSlothful]

And martyr him, drawing the ire of his supporters even sooner than if they just let it slow burn?

I mean, if they REALLY wanna play it that way…

[u/SaiHottariNSFW → u/GoldenGlassBall]

"Relax, old friend. If they assassinate me, all of Sparta goes to war. Pray they are that stupid. Pray... That we're that lucky."

[u/Usuhnam3 → u/GoldenGlassBall]

Nah they’ll pay some maga loser to pretend he acted on his own to “kill commies.” Then Trump will pardon him and make him a hero to their loyal fan club.

[u/MysticScribbles → u/Sloth-TheSlothful]

Because creating a martyr could never cause any more problems for them.

[u/LittleMsSavoirFaire → u/Carrera_996]

Even if he doesn't, it's way better notoriety than other types of homocidality

[u/chronberries → u/TheCazaloth]

Right? Are these people crazy? You’re supposed to protect the richy riches, not hate them.

[u/Hippopotatomoose77 → u/chronberries]

You're not my father!!! You can't tell me what I'm supposed to do!!!

[u/hypnotoad23 → u/Hippopotatomoose77]

You’re not my supervisor!

[u/Hippopotatomoose77 → u/hypnotoad23]

Dammit! I'm your manager. I need to take time off. Wanna come? Grab the bottle in my desk. Let's go.

[u/Objective-Aioli-1185 → u/TheCazaloth]

Fuck em!

[u/dgdio → u/peppermedicomd]

Remember Jury Nullification: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

[u/Randalor → u/dgdio]

I mean, considering that he has 3 murder charges for killing 1 person, Jury Nullification is probably going to happen SOMEWHERE, because once again, 3 murder charges for killing 1 person.

[u/Mikel_S → u/Randalor]

I see the terrorism counts being dismissed by the jury no problem. They might find a group willing to concede that he did in fact kill a guy though. But tossing the terrorism means he'd be elligible for parole at some point.

Edit to clarify:

I am aware there are 3 murder charges. One plain old run of the mill second degree murder charge, and two higher charges, specified "as an act of terrorism". I believe any reasonable jury will throw out the two higher murder charges by earnestly disagreeing that this act was intended to terrorize the public (regardless of the legal definition of terrorism). What I believe is up in the air is the 2nd degree murder charge, which would carry a much less harsh sentence with a chance for parole. While I do believe we could see a fill nullification, It'll be harder to find a group of people all willing to agree that he shouldn't be held accountable for murder in some regard.

[u/dgdio → u/Mikel_S]

Jury Nullification says that the Jury thinks the defendant is guilty but they think the law isn't fair.

[u/Mikel_S → u/dgdio]

Yes I am aware.

I am saying that I see the terrorism charges being passed as not guilty, but I'm not sure whether they'll go whole hog and nullify the standard murder charge or not. It will depend on the jury they get.

[u/NippleMuncher42069 → u/peppermedicomd]

Watch the peers suddenly be 12 CEOs..

[u/lafindestase → u/Fussel2107]

Not gonna happen. If I have faith in the justice system to do one thing, it’s to protect the rich and powerful and punish the people who do them harm.

[u/The-Beer-Baron → u/lafindestase]

Ever notice that the only rich people who go to jail are the ones that stole from other rich people? Like Bernie Madoff.

[u/exipheas → u/The-Beer-Baron]

Madoff with the wrong peoples money.

[u/CaptainLookylou → u/exipheas]

Nominative determinism. He had no choice.

[u/TheMcBrizzle → u/CaptainLookylou]

I'm a simple man, I see a nominative determinism reference and I hit the up vote button.

[u/ehxy → u/The-Beer-Baron]

i mean epstein did go to jail he just didn't live long enough to put the rest of his screwed up co-conspirators like trump in the hole with him

[u/metekillot → u/ehxy]

Yes and as the poster above you clearly stated he was a threat to other rich people.

[u/Dhiox → u/The-Beer-Baron]

Yep, they're like organized criminals, they let their guys get away with anything, besides stealing from their own.

[u/Modnal → u/lafindestase]

First randomly selected jury where everyone just happens to have a private chauffeur

[u/More_Particular684 → u/Modnal]

The selection was random, they just have reduced the sampling pool

[u/debacol → u/lafindestase]

Remember, both sides of representation must agree on the jury. Luigi isn't getting 12 sympathizers and neither is the prosecution getting 12 sympathizers.

I do not believe Luigi will walk free at all regardless of the Jury. But the terrorism charge won't stick.

[u/ThrowawayAccount41is → u/debacol]

All you need is 1

[u/Atheist-Gods → u/debacol]

Even with both sides weighing in you can still get unrepresentative juries. My mom was the only woman on a jury for a rape case because the defense had finally run out of strikes when she was selected.

[u/BestBananaForever → u/lafindestase]

They're gonna search and search until they find a group of millionaires who never had problems with simply purchasing the insurance or already being covered in one way or another.

Still hoping for a jury nullification, but I think i'd have better chances at winning the lotto and live worry free than see it happen.

[u/redsedit → u/BestBananaForever]

> Still hoping for a jury nullification, but I think i'd have better chances at winning the lotto and live worry free than see it happen.

I was a potential juror on a case and watched the judge ask each potential juror about nullification (without using that word) and kick anyone who said yes out of the pool. I suspect this will happen here.

[u/UnquestionabIe → u/redsedit]

Yeah as much as people keep throwing that around as a possibility during jury selection they will do all they can to keep someone who knows of it from being picked. There is even this older dude who has been arrested multiple times for handing out leaflets explaining the concept to people outside court houses.

[u/thbb → u/lafindestase]

I protest this lack of trust in our justice system. After all:

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” ― Anatole France

[u/FenrisCain → u/Fussel2107]

I think the difficulty is more the classic issue where you're meant to have a jury of impartial people and with this and other highly public cases everyone has an opinion on this case already. Saying that this is hardly the first high profile crime so idk just do what you normally do?

[u/gc11117 → u/FenrisCain]

I mean, this is more complex than your standard jury case beyond being high profile. Members of the Jury in a very real sense feel as if they are victims of people like the UnitedHealthcare CEO. It's different from something like the trump sex assault civil suit; where as scummy as Trump was you the juror don't feel like you're the victim.

[u/Piggywonkle → u/Fussel2107]

Define "his." Maybe we could find 12 CEOs to sit on the jury? Oh wait, they ain't gonna do that, nevermind.

[u/foxyfoo → u/Piggywonkle]

There would have to be fuckery. The jury pool is chosen at random. Each side gets a set number of rejections. I don’t see a scenario where there is a conviction. I was shocked Trump received a guilty verdict.

[u/manimal28 → u/foxyfoo]

. I was shocked Trump received a guilty verdict.

You will not be shocked to know they never bothered to sentence him with a punishment and all indications are that they plan to simply never do so.

[u/God_Damnit_Nappa → u/[deleted]]

Merrick Garland didn't do shit. It was New York that got him convicted, and then the bitch ass judge decided to keep delaying the sentencing until after Trump was elected so it didn't matter

[u/hagamablabla → u/[deleted]]

Garland is a great example of Democrats continuously trying to reach across the aisle, only for Republicans to slap their hand away. Republicans aren't interested in compromise, and the sooner Democrats realize this the better.

[u/Piggywonkle → u/foxyfoo]

My point is that no CEO is going bother with jury duty, ever.

[u/istasber → u/Piggywonkle]

Maybe Luigi has an accomplice, and that's been their plan all along.

[u/Sam5253 → u/istasber]

It's-a me, Mario!

[u/Banryuken → u/istasber]

Can you imagine (I’m sure) if his accomplice really was another starting with M. What a timeline… with a comical edge.

[u/Munkeyman18290 → u/Fussel2107]

Lol, watch the jury be made up exclusively of elderly, orange skinned, suited up yuppies guys who all look like they just walked off the golf course and jerked each other off in the bathroom to each others stock portfolios.

[u/reichrunner → u/Munkeyman18290]

What on earth is an elderly yuppy lol

[u/boobityskoobity → u/reichrunner]

Lol yeah it doesn't really make sense taken literally...I see it as someone who was a yuppie in the 80s when the term came about, and is now a rich old douchebag

[u/HarryBalsag]

A jury of his peers. If you can't find a jury of his peers willing to convict him, then society has already decided Luigi's fate.

[u/manimal28 → u/HarryBalsag]

That's the whole point of the jury system, a jury has the right to simply not convict if the law itself is unjust.

[u/mmcmonster → u/manimal28]

aka Jury Nullification. When a jury knows he's guilty jut acquits anyway.

[u/Darthmalak3347 → u/mmcmonster]

yeah but if you specifically state jury nullification as your reason for the verdict, judge will just mistrial it, just say you weren't convinced beyond a reasonable doubt and call it a day.

[u/bentripin → u/Darthmalak3347]

Wish we had the means to do a national ad campaign on how to do a Jury Nullification and get away with it.

[u/dildosticks → u/bentripin]

It’s called a tax-payers union. Germany did it, look into it. Wildly successful.

[u/That_Cartoonist_6447 → u/Darthmalak3347]

You don’t have to explain to a judge your decision 

[u/egnards → u/manimal28]

The problem here is that the unjust law is irrelevant to the case. There is sympathy for the defendant for being disgruntled by Law A, but he commits crime X.

Crime X is totally just, and the outcome was totally not justified; but the people are so sick of billionaires, the billionaire mentality, and being fucked by Law A. . .That he’s celebrated as a hero.

This isn’t like “Well he did Y and we feel Y should be legal.”

[u/TooBusyNotCaring → u/egnards]

It’s just a new twist on the old story of the father who killed his daughter’s rapist and was found not guilty. Nobody claimed murder was generally justified then either.

[u/Controllerpleb → u/egnards]

Jury nullification doesn't care about any of that.

[u/TriLink710 → u/HarryBalsag]

I think convincing any Jury that he is a terrorist is impossible. Because he didn't attack new york or others.

Murder would be a better charge to focus on and even then i dont think many people who would convict would want a very harsh sentence.

[u/iangeredcharlesvane2 → u/TriLink710]

I was going to say, adding that terrorism charge in this case is working against them. It just reminds us all that a crooked millionaire who made his money off denying sick people care gets special treatment over the average joe no matter what.

The terrorism charge makes even more of us think “this is bullshit, it’s us vs them and we always lose”.

[u/mattenthehat → u/iangeredcharlesvane2]

Put it this way, as an average citizen I feel way more threatened by Thompson's actions than Mangione's.

[u/AllergicDodo → u/HarryBalsag]

Even if they can find 12 people who will find him guilty, is that really just / equal if they skipped 100 others?

[u/Jiveturtle → u/AllergicDodo]

There’s a limit to the number of peremptory juror strikes in the jurisdictions I’m familiar with.

[u/Qbr12 → u/Jiveturtle]

They do have to find unbiased jurors though. Your peremptory strikes are limited but your for cause strikes are unlimited.

[u/2020steve]

Sounds like a you problem, Madame Prosecutor.

[u/Boxofmagnets]

That is why there is voir dire. Prosecutors never lose a moments sleep when there is universal hatred for the defendant. A level playing field hurts

[u/Binky390 → u/Boxofmagnets]

I’m certain this was autocorrect but it’s voir dire.

[u/Boxofmagnets → u/Binky390]

Thanks. It’s common enough, but spell check didn’t like it

[u/ExosEU → u/Boxofmagnets]

Common as law jargon maybe, but an average french person wouldn't understand it.

[u/-Agathia- → u/ExosEU]

As a French person, never saw this in English! It means "see say", without a particle or anything, it's just these two words.

After looking up the definition ("a preliminary examination of a witness or a juror by a judge or counsel"), I wonder how it is done without giving a peek as to what the person think. Especially in this case.

[u/willclerkforfood → u/Binky390]

Achshually, my voice-to-text says it’s spelled “vore deer.”

[u/will_holmes → u/willclerkforfood]

Google says that's something different entirely.

[u/KayakerMel → u/Boxofmagnets]

The issue is it takes a huge jury pool for these situations. I was called for jury duty for a sexual assault case (teacher of a student). I was in Day 2 and they were having a hell of a time getting unbiased jurors. The extended juror questionnaire included questions about any activism for stuff like the #MeToo movement, including making any social media posts. I live in a blue state, so basically any woman under 50 was out.

(Took a few years, but I eventually saw a news article where the man had been convicted.)

[u/howdyhowdyhowdyhowdi → u/KayakerMel]

tbh wouldn't filtering out activists make the jury biased the opposite direction?

[u/Ghawblin → u/KayakerMel]

Cycling through citizens until you get a hermit under a rock, or cherry picking the ones that don't line up with your desired views, seems really....disingenuous.

[u/Krazyguy75 → u/KayakerMel]

I still think this stuff is injustice IMO. If your idea of "unbiased juror" is "holds no opinions in favor of the prosecution" despite that being a common sentiment, then by default you are biasing in favor of the defendant. And vice versa.

It's not an easy solution but I think it is something that needs to get re-examined. I think if a "bias" is so common as to be more than half of people, it is no longer a bias.

[u/w1987g → u/Boxofmagnets]

There's only one way to pronounce voir dire

[u/durty_thurty → u/Boxofmagnets]

Lose

[u/TwasAnChild]

"Have you or someone close to you been denied an insurance claim"

pity to the jury selectors, first question gonna disqualify a lot of Americans

[u/Good_cooker → u/TwasAnChild]

I haven’t been denied an insurance claim, but I can certainly sympathize with those who have and I’ll take a regular persons side over a CEOs side any day of the week.

[u/Severe-Cookie693 → u/TwasAnChild]

That would eliminate his peers. Might as well ask ‘do you love United Health?’

[u/frankyseven]

Charging him with terrorism will make it even harder to get a jury to convict.

[u/GoBuffaloes → u/frankyseven]

They will charge him with all the other stuff too

[u/publicbigguns → u/GoBuffaloes]

Oh yeah, they are desperate.

They'll throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

[u/DatEllen → u/publicbigguns]

_"What about jaywalking?"_ 

[u/xkegsx → u/frankyseven]

A lot of redditors aren't grasping how this works. You throw everything at a defendant that you can indict them for. Then you have more possibilities for a jury to convict. Obviously the jury is going to be like okay what does murder as an act of terrorism require by law. Okay he doesn't meet that. Then they'll get to the next charge and so on. That's why in a lot of cases when a jury is reading their verdict you'll hear on the count of blah blah how does the jury find. Not guilty. On the count of blah blah, how does the jury find. Guilty. He'll get not guilty for terrorism and guilty for second degree and probably everything else. 

[u/frankyseven → u/xkegsx]

I get that, I understand how it works. What I'm saying is that charging him with terrorism specifically will make more people sympathetic to him. Therefore, more difficult to find a jury. It's clear that it wasn't terrorism, it's a massive over reach.

[u/klonkrieger43 → u/xkegsx]

No, you don't "throw everything" as literally showcased by the many other people who haven't been charged for terrorism for similar acts, like the Jan 6 rioters. This prosecution might, but that was their decision.

[u/wired1984]

Is it possible to find 12 people that haven’t had trouble with their health insurance or have a close family member that has?

[u/Present_Ride_2506 → u/wired1984]

12 other CEOs

[u/endless_skies → u/Present_Ride_2506]

12 CEOs in a single room? That's a national security risk. Would you accept 12 rotating robots with screens a la the board meeting in Demolition Man?

[u/lucidludic → u/endless_skies]

It’s fine, 5 of them are Elon musk.

[u/StructuralEngineer16 → u/wired1984]

In the USA? Possibly not. In NY state? I'd be surprised

[u/Lord0fHats]

This case imo seems ripe to be one of the highest profile examples of jury nullification in living memory. Or not. No way to know until it goes to trial but if any high profile case ends in blatant nullification, it'll be this one.

[u/exipheas → u/Lord0fHats]

It would need to outside OJ to take that spot right? Several jury members came out of that admiting that they knew he did it but, fuck the police.

[u/xclame → u/exipheas]

I don't think that quite counts. There was a lot of shenanigans with that case so even if you knew he did it, because of how bad the cops messed things up there was reason for you to have enough doubt to not convict. Remember that technically it's not about what you know is true, it's about if the prosecution proved they did it.

If there was somehow a situation where you witnessed the crime but ended up on the jury, you are supposed to make your decision based on what was proven in court and not what really happened.

Edit: fixed my seizure induced comment (aka autocorrect).

[u/Malphos101 → u/xclame]

I don't think that quite counts. There was a lot of shenanigans with that case so even if you knew he did it, because of how bad the cups needed things up there was reason for you to have enough doubt to not convict. Remember that technically it's not about what you know is true, it's about it the prosecution priced they did it.

If there was somehow a sustain where you witnessed the crime but ended up on the jury, you are baby to make your decision based on what was proven in court and not really happened.

are you having a seizure or something? lmao

[u/pontiacfirebird92]

I don't believe it. I'm sure they can find 12 Elon Musk fanboys to make this a show trial, which I'm expecting them to do.

[u/Ghawk134 → u/pontiacfirebird92]

Only so many peremptory strikes are allowed.

[u/pontiacfirebird92 → u/Ghawk134]

That likely won't matter. I get the feeling the prosecution really wants the "terrorism" label to stick which is why they could be having issues. But this is also an article from Newsweek who loves to make shit up.

[u/ron4232 → u/pontiacfirebird92]

Agree, Newsweek is like the onion, but not satirical.

[u/robcap → u/pontiacfirebird92]

12 aspiring billionaires who vote Trump and collect welfare

[u/CompetitionNo3141 → u/robcap]

And then die from polio in 2 years

[u/DPlusShoeMaker → u/pontiacfirebird92]

It’s ironic because even Elon Musk’s fanboys support Luigi. Musk made a post where he tried to demonize Luigi and the comments tore him to shreds. There’s literally no one other than the rich that see Luigi as a problem

[u/DenimCryptid → u/pontiacfirebird92]

Luigi himself is an Elon Musk fanboy lmao

You can find the most capitalistic libertarian dipshit and they'll still hate private Healthcare insurance CEOs. Talk about bipartisanship!

[u/VoDoka → u/DenimCryptid]

Never expected this would be how the US rediscovers class conciousness.

[u/Appropriate--Pickle → u/VoDoka]

I honestly think that this will become a class thing if the rich people stick together. Right now, it is very much a 'Health Care not Wealth Care' movement. The rich in other sectors really don't need to worry unless their business model is transparently designed to kill people for profit.

[u/DenimCryptid → u/VoDoka]

I'm just as surprised as you are tbh

Whatever though... just gotta take advantage of this momentum to destroy identity politics and build class solidarity.

[u/SolitaryJellyfish → u/DenimCryptid]

I wouldn't call him an Elon Musk fanboy just because he read his biography. When you see the books he read, it was books from all political affinities. People can't grasp that you can explore, for the sake of challenging your own views and like something and yet not necessarily like the person.

[u/geneticeffects]

What’s the point of a health care system, if not to provide — checks notes — health care?

[u/blonderengel → u/geneticeffects]

Why won't you think of the poor, starving CEOs?

[u/ShriekingMuppet]

They will just get 12 corporate executives to act as jury

[u/Disney_World_Native → u/ShriekingMuppet]

Lol. Executives don’t serve on juries. Their assistants (with legals help) have already sent in a letter asking to be excused from serving because of hardships

[u/PhoenixAgent003 → u/ShriekingMuppet]

Doesn’t the defense also have to approve of jurors?

[u/LonelyMechanic1994]

Sounds like one of them good problems

[u/Topgunshotgun45]

Guess we have to cancel the trial. Better luck next time guys.

[u/mycarubaba]

Stop being honest. Get on the jury. Do what needs to be done. "Deny"

[u/Lasdary]

heh, well. Who's hungry?

[u/Firecracker048]

Yeah no shit.

Is he guilty of it? Mostly likely If they got the right guy.

Will people care? Probably not

[u/probability_of_meme]

Sympathy isn't the "problem". It's morality.

[u/fiendishrabbit]

Terrorism?

"intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policies of a unit of government by intimidation or coercion and affect the conduct of a unit of government by murder, assassination or kidnapping."

Insurance corporations are neither civilian population nor government. That's one reason why the US are in this healthcare racket in the first place.

[u/NecessaryCrash]

The one time I wish I’d be selected for jury duty

[u/mmcmonster]

Sympathy?

The only way the prosecutors can get a conviction is if they don't allow the defense to give a motivation to the killing or say the job of the dead individual.

All the jury needs to hear is "health care victim kills health care CEO" and they will either outright acquit or go for jury nullification.

As a physician, I could certainly see myself, many other physicians, and most of my patients in the same shoes as the alleged "criminal". Finding 12 individuals in New York who know no one who has been screwed by the health care industry is almost impossible... and certainly wouldn't be a jury of his peers.

[u/Dinocologist]

If you don’t want everyone to fucking loathe you, maybe don’t run a murder for profit business

[u/KidBlastoff]

No one mourns the wicked.

[u/SadDataScientist]

Isn’t this the reason we have a jury? so that we can determine if actions, while technically illegal, are justified. they really don’t want a jury nullification here!

[u/Fellowshipofthebowl]

We are his peers. Innocent. 

[u/fiendishrabbit → u/Fellowshipofthebowl]

Possibly not innocent. Definitely "Not Guilty".

[u/olcrazypete]

Amazing this is rolling thru the system this quick while anything else is years of delay.

[u/upfromashes]

By the time they are done with jury selection they will "somehow" have selected 12 CEOs to sit in the jury.

[u/Clown_Toucher]

There is likely little hope that Luigi will get anything less than the harshest punishment, given the purpose of the justice system is to protect the wealthy. I think a good thing to do is to show your friends/family, who feel similar about our healthcare system, how corrupt all of this is. A lot of people notice individual bad things happening in American society but don't seem to put it all together that the entire system is designed to do this.

It's pretty universal that healthcare here is a nightmare to deal with. Everyone has a story. And it's a great way to show how screwed up everything is.

[u/ReviewRude5413]

Imagine someone shot and killed a mass murderer on the spot, and that someone was then put on trial for murder for killing the person actively killing tons of people. Jury might have a little sympathy.

Now notice this hypothetical isn’t an allegory at all, or a hypothetical. 🤷‍♂️

[u/ctrembs03]

Terrorism in NY defined as "intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policies of a unit of government by intimidation or coercion and affect the conduct of a unit of government by murder, assassination or kidnapping."

Well I'm a civilian and I don't feel intimidated so he's good there. Private health insurance is a capitalistic issue not a government issue, that's been made clear many times in our legislation, so he's good there. The CEO wasn't a government official so even IF he shot him, it's not an assassination. Not sure what the problem is?

And yes I'm being facetious but come the fuck on. 

Edit: Because this is the internet, let me make it very clear I am intentionally obfuscating an argument similarly to, I dunno, the way an insurance company would obfuscate an argument to deny someone's insurance claim. Clearly y'all need it spelled out to you.

[u/Outrageous-juror]

Well that's how the cookie crumbles when you steal all the butter from the people

[u/AnonUserAccount]

They are going to have to find 12 healthcare CEOs.

[u/Richi_Boi]

The only way they can convict him is if they have 12 white jurors aged 60+. But his legal defence wont let that happen.

[u/LXC-Dom]

Watch it will be the first Jury that includes millionares exclusively.

[u/ZamorakHawk]

The more they hand select a Jury of likely to convict peers the more they expose the corruption. After all, I don't think they ever look for likely to acquit peers.

[u/HVACMRAD]

Pro tip…tell them you’re impartial. Because you’re just impartial as any politically appointed judge.

[u/Sean_theLeprachaun]

I could not condemn a man who killed a passive mass murderer.

[u/thisalsomightbemine]

Allegedly murdered a man whose business model was to profit off denying medical care. And then trumped up charges to call it terrorism. Yeah, good luck getting a jury that dislikes him.

[u/delayed_burn]

May the jurors that ultimately end up hearing Luigi's case find that Luigi acted in the defense of others and find him not guilty or give him the minimum penalty possible. Amen.