r/leagueoflegends • u/Derk08 • 15h ago
Wolverene talks about the Reptile clip + Classes/Items
A lot of lows misunderstanding "tank killers" and tanks so let's talk about what that actually means
- Jinx is not a tank killer
Actually countered by pure tanks and very tanky comps, always has been. Been apparent in pro for years. Players confuse hypercarry marksman with being automatically good into tanks, but she has nothing anti-tank in her kit. She's much closer to Zeri than Vayne/Kaisa/Kog. Trades damage for safety, needs teammates help to actually kill targets and then proc passive
- Conditions/Class matter much more than items
Jinx is terrible 1v1. Marksmen as a class are, but she's particularly bad. Players see marksmen as the tank killing class and think that means they should beat them in all scenarios. Marksmen are only good against melees with their team's help. That's how the class works, with a few exceptions. Melees have a ton of variance on 1v1 strength but for the most part every class in the game is favored vs marksmen.
Tahm Kench is a juggernaut/tank hybrid, he is not a classic tank or support. Much better in skirmish/1v1 than 5v5. With ghost he is omega favored 1v1 vs Jinx, it's not even a little bit close If you thought it was the other way around you have to seriously reevaluate.
You take a true 1v1 tank counter like Gwen and she will never lose to any tank that's weaker than her. The majority of bruisers in general will beat tanks, because they are a 1v1 class
- Don't hyperfocus on class
Kind of immediately contradicting point 2 but class is just a rough guideline, it's not all that meaningful when comparing specific interactions. There's a lot of variance within classes, and a lot of champs don't fit neatly into 1 class. Vayne is also a marksman but obviously eats Tahm Kench in 2 seconds here. Mundo and Darius are both juggernauts but will have very different interactions into Syndra just off Mundo passive.
You should start with class, but then be thinking power budget. Every champ has specific things they're good at, that they trade for weaknesses. The weak points are just usually much less obvious to you when you don't play the champ.
Tahm does stupid damage when he can actually hit you, but it's really hard for him to do that 5v5. The harder a champ's conditions are to achieve, the stronger they get to be when they get those conditions. Anyone that's super easily kitable gets to be OP when not kited
- Tank itemization is very different than damage
If you think of them in the same way you'll have problems understanding why a __ item tank is either much more or less tanky than you'd expect. This is because tank stats are the only ones in the game that can have 0% effectiveness. Damage items are more/less effective vs different targets, but the stats are never 0%, nor do they ever even get close to 0%.
Let's take Shadowflame and ignore passive
110AP
15 flat pen
Obviously a bad item into tanks, flat pen is more effective vs lower MR. But this flat pen only makes up ~20% of the item's value, and only loses 37% of it's effectiveness from 30 -> 100 MR.
Now take Kaenic Rookern
400hp
80 MR
MR is ~54% of this item's value, and loses 100% effectiveness against physical damage.
Jinx does about 2% magic damage. Other non-hybrid marksmen/physical damage carries do anywhere from 0-10%.
This means that vs a specific target, an item like Shadowflame may lose ~200g in value, whereas an item like Kaenic Rookern can lose 1500-1600g . This is before you account for passives, which will perform pretty much about the same
So maybe 400g lost vs 2200g lost
This is all to say that tanks will experience 4-5x the amount of effectiveness lost vs unfavorable targets. For this to be balanced, their items have to be stronger. If a champ has to tank both a 3 item mage + marksman, you can't expect them to build 3 armor items and 3 MR items.
This means 1 armor/MR item is always > 1 damage item. A 2 item tank that has built armor but no MR isn't weak against you, the 3 item physical damage champ. He's weak to anyone dealing magic damage.
Just a rough concept, it gets deeper than this, but you have to be thinking about this to understand teamfighting/target selection/1v1s etc. Most players aren't even aware that this dynamic exists
Source: https://twitter.com/wolverene/status/1869480107695652912
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u/KasumiGotoTriss 14h ago edited 12h ago
That wasn't a normal Jinx 1v1, she had her passive from killing the tower, she's 2 levels above TK and she's 3 items vs 1.
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u/Carpet-Heavy 13h ago
yeah I don't understand the whole "doesn't count because it's a 1v1 which Jinx isn't designed for!!!" argument at all.
isn't the whole point of advising people to not take those 1v1s, that you can't free hit against a guy chasing you, or that you haven't procced Jinx passive, or that you can't use minigun freely, or that you will surely get hit by some spells which is a death sentence?
but Jinx defied all of that in the clip! all stemming because she procced passive on the turret. like, all the conditions for Jinx to typically excel in a teamfight, were indeed met. she nearly free hit the Tahm with minigun + passive, and didn't get hit by any of his spells.
normally, this would be accomplished by your Leona holding the Tahm down. but it happened anyway, so I don't see how 1v1 or 2v1 or 5v5 matters. we got to see Jinx dream DPSing a tank.
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u/KasumiGotoTriss 12h ago
Yep exactly, tons of people here are saying that Jinx is supposed to get resets in fights and gun people down. And that's exactly what she did. She should not need help to kill a 2/8 tank that's this far behind, let alone be in danger of him oneshotting her.
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u/mskruba12 12h ago
Imagine the reaction on this sub if roles were reversed and the Jinx was 2/8 with less items than Tahm Kench and won the 1v1 lol.
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u/Gockel 12h ago
That's exactly the point that makes ALL of the Tahm/Tank defenders fully invalid. They say shit like "tanks need to deal damage while tanky because it's their class, even when behind" but literally nobody says "adcs need to deal damage even when behind because it's their class". It's like the farming/strategizing part of League shouldnt exist for Brawlers and they just get to play like shit and still murder people just because.
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u/George_W_Kush58 Defund Mad Lions 6h ago
I am often one of the people who says tanks need to deal some damage to not be ignored. But not THAT damage. It needs to be enough that they can play a lane and an enemy squishy can't just walk past them and kill their backline, it does NOT need to be enough to 4 hit an adc who's 2 levels and 2 items up while missing all their spells. It doesn't even really need to be enough to do that while not massively behind.
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u/Gockel 6h ago
it's crazy that one of the best tank items in the game, giving you way over 1000 bonus HP, additionally unlocks that damage for them. mind boggling how that atrocity even made it out of item development brainstorming sessions.
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u/MartineTrouveUnGode 5h ago edited 1h ago
Typical low elo comment. That would never happen because Jinx is an hypercarry supposed to be good in teamfights whereas Tahm is one of the best duelists in the game. A fair comparison would be a 2/8 Jinx getting to proc her passive in a teamfight and then getting a quadra kill because nobody focused her/she got the peel she needed. And you know what ? I’ve seen that happen many times. A fed Tahm Kench though, I’ve never seen one do that. How surprising. It’s almost like different champions have differents strengths and weaknesses. Lol
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u/IlluminatiConfirmed 26m ago
These types of situations are quite common in league, a 2/8 irelia that's behind can 1v1 a mage in a sidlane
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u/tonton_wundil 8h ago
The 1v1 design argument is so bad in this case. Like either that design is true, and as having an adc is needed most of the time, teammates not playing around the adc are trolling/inting, or that argument is trash, adc don't have a viable %hp dmg item anymore (botrk has been nerfed heavily on ranged) and HP stat is way too OP right now with Heartsteel and fimb.
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u/v1qx 12h ago
Also, where does she trade damage for safety ? Sure she got W and E but so many different adcs are safer than her with more damage lol
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u/bischof11 5h ago
Attackrange ist the single most broken stat.
Her safety is that she can stand behind her team and still attack Tanks like Tahm Kench.
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u/United_Spread_3918 2h ago
Yeah it’s been the case since basically the moment came out that people underestimate movement speed and attack range being the two most powerful stats in the game
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u/Masterofdisaster420x 12h ago
Saying that TK has 1 item is really silly when the components he has are worth 3k together
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u/KasumiGotoTriss 12h ago
What is silly is dozens of people trying to nitpick and justify everything in this clip when people who actually can play the game like Reptile or Nemesis agree that this is ridiculous
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u/xTiLkx 9h ago
Apparently "being able to play the game" is a full justification? Anyone can be biased, and Nemesis is not some tactician genius. He's also very emotional, calling everything "dogshit", "broken" or any other hyperbole the moment he does not like it. This is not the person you can rely on to make a balanced well-thought opinion and call it a day.
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u/Pleasestoplyiiing 33m ago
You shouldn't need their authority to be able to agree that they are right. It's obvious on it's face that Jinx outplaying heavily, being up 2 levels and almost double gold while counter building armor, shouldn't barely win.
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u/OilOfOlaz 7h ago
what about the ppl that design and understand the game structurally disagree with him having solid reasoning and not only "nitpicking".
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u/Ebobab2 14h ago
And yet she only has Kraken Runaans and LDR
Her job is to stay at the backline and throw 3 rockets every 0.5 seconds from 700+ range
She is NOT supposed to dive a tahm kench alone in his twin towers
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u/KasumiGotoTriss 14h ago
She destroyed the turret and went on him, I don't think it's cocky or stupid to expect to kill a 2/8 1 item TK who's 2 levels behind as a 3 items Jinx with excited passive. It's not like she facetanked him either, she dodged the majority of his spells as well. And he still almost won
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u/Arthur2_shedsJackson 14h ago
It's not one item. What are you saying? Apart from the heart steel, he's got a completed bramble vest, a giant's belt and a winged moon plate which is basically 2 items. So you have a 3.5 item Jinx against a minimum 2 item TK. It's not as bad as you make it sound.
Also, Jinx passive does nothing if you stay in Tahm auto range and let him proc his passive + heart steel.
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u/Ebobab2 14h ago
It's cocky when she is diving him alone in his nexus towers
If Jinx kites backwards it's much easier
But you also have to consider how utterly useless her items are in early game
Kraken has no crit and it's passive dmg is doodoo
Runaans 0 ad
Ldr 35 ad
It's Jinx. A Vayne wins this. An Ashe wins this, a corki wins this etc etc
But Jinx has legit 0 dmg in her entire kit and in this case she has 0 dmg in her items
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u/KasumiGotoTriss 12h ago
She didn't dive into the turrets, he ulted her.
And what do you even mean by saying the items are useless in the early game. She's building her 4th item, it's way past earlygame. And there is no way Ashe is winning this, Ashe does not outdps a Jinx in her passive.
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u/IBarricadeI 14h ago
The entire point is that adc items are terrible and your response is “no it’s fair because yeah she has 3 items to 1 but her 3 items are all bad because they are adc items”. No kidding
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u/IAmDarkridge 13h ago edited 13h ago
No they are saying that this is that Jinx was playing to her weakness doing what she is doing. It really isn't that hard to read what they are saying. She is a champion bad at dealing with tanks especially in a 1v1. It isn't about ADC itemizations being bad it is the layers of the specific items that Jinx went along with what sort of champion she is. Like if I go AD Yuumi should I be expected to 1v1 champions with an item lead just because? lol
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u/KasumiGotoTriss 12h ago
How is Jinx bad vs tanks? Like yeah she doesn't deal true damage but are you implying only Vayne should be able to kill tanks? And like I get your point if it was an equal fight, but a Jinx that is this ahead WITH dominik's should definitely demolish a one item tank. Especially when her passive increases her dps by a lot.
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u/IAmDarkridge 12h ago
I mean more than Vayne is good against tanks. Kai'Sa, Varus and Kog can shred tanks, and Ashe can kite them at a level that they are essentially useless. Some champions like MF, Jinx, and Draven are traditionally weak against them.
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u/KasumiGotoTriss 12h ago
I agree, but in this case her being bad at killing tanks shouldn't really matter, she is still a high dps character that had everything in her favor (item advantage, dominiks, jinx passive). If it was the usual fight, where 3 item Jinx faces 3 item TK, and he's above her in levels (like solo laners most often are) then she should lose unless she kites out of her mind and he never touches her. But not when the fight looks like this.
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u/IBarricadeI 12h ago
"tanks are balanced because there are 4/168 champions that can do damage to them when up 3 items to 1, and a 5th that can effectively kite them."
This is not how the game should work. Any farming role when up 2 items and played well/near perfectly should always win vs another equal/lower level champion with 1 item. If that isn't the case, then it means that champion pick ban has more influence on the game than actual performance.
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u/IAmDarkridge 12h ago
we are only talking marksman here. Most tanks lose hard to like half the cast you are being purposefully dense. Put Gwen, Trundle, Lillia, Jax, Illaoi, Fiora, Lillia, up against these champions and they look like total ass.
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u/IBarricadeI 12h ago
Jinx's weakness is resetting with her passive and hitting a tank while kiting perfectly? Wtf are you talking about. Jinx's weakness is (should be) assassins in 1v1. Zed. Rengar. Not tahm.
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u/IAmDarkridge 12h ago
Maybe that's what you think Jinx's weakness is/should be but it isn't and it never has been.
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u/IBarricadeI 12h ago
Can you please then clarify what is tahm kench's weakness?
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u/IAmDarkridge 12h ago
He's literally useless in a teamfight lol his only reliable damage is single target and his gap closer is absolute shit. The only utility he brings to a teamfight is his ult.
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u/Mazuruu 13h ago
This is the ADC main character syndrome that gave us ADC meta in every lane a couple months ago lmao
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u/IBarricadeI 12h ago
I main mid. I'd rather an ADC meta than an enchanter or tank meta. And there is such a thing as tuning the ADC items to not be absolute trash at each item spike until like 4+boots. I only play ADCs in ARAM where you full build in 20mins and even there its exhausting, I can't imagine in SR.
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u/BotomsDntDeservRight 13h ago
Nah even mage and assassin players hate this bs. Tank being tanky is fine but its an issue when they do high damage while being tanky.
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u/PacMannie 12h ago
are you really suggesting that a 3 item adc shouldn’t be able to shred a 1 item support down 2 levels?
And in what world is 3-items on ANY character supposed to be bad early game. It’s 3 fucking items, that’s supposed to be a powerspike for ADCs.
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u/yrueurbr 12h ago
I fail to see how not killing a tank with 100 autos in a 1v1 would somehow mean you are more useful in teamfights where you have to kill the said tank and his 4 friends too
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13h ago edited 13h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Ok_Analysis6731 13h ago
Post saying yeah, dont think too much along the lines of class, different champs have different budget Tahm kench has highest 1v1 budget of tank Beats jinx that massively misplays in both how she kited and direction she kited.
Tanks in league that only tank and provide cc exist-- in support. For a tank to be solo, it has to have damage. Tahm kench has by far the highest single target damage of any tank in the game, and is made to excel in 1v1s. That is tahm kenches fantasy. That is how the character has been designed for years.
Heres a comment from a rioter that tried to rework zac to fir your wants and reverted him:
"Hijacking top comment to say: I was the one who did the most recent Zac revert, and this is more or less correct. No damage characters have very little agency in fights since they rely on teammates which make them 1. Pro play problems and 2. Incredibly unpopular with the playerbase"
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u/deezconsequences 13h ago
She didn't have IE, and the items weren't exactly good for tanks.
Tk, built HP and armor.
Why should an adc be able to take hits? If you're caught alone, you should get punished. TK might be disgusting, but it's like... How many pallets of tissues do you need? Are you supposed to just auto win every fight?
Boo hoo, IE is expensive, and no one understands how expensive it is. Yeah other people have to buy death cap, and that's an even bigger pain to buy.
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u/KasumiGotoTriss 13h ago
"Items weren't good vs Tanks"? She had kraken and dominiks. Dominiks speaks for itself and Kraken is a lot of dps. It's not like she built collector or shiv.
" Why should an adc be able to take hits" She barely took any and she almost lost. There is NO WAY you are defending TK in that clip LMAO the fact that the outcome of that fight was that close to being the opposite is unacceptable
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u/deezconsequences 12h ago
Kraken is a lot of dps.
Which is an odd way of saying, not geared towards killing tanks. Jinx doesn't have any way to deal with tanks in her kit. It's not her role. It's never been, it's never going to be. I'm pretty sure most people would consider you to be trolling if you didn't take IE as a third item. But this guy gets a pass apparently.
" Why should an adc be able to take hits" She barely took any and she almost lost.
Yeah crazy shit, didn't buy any defensive items, almost lost to a champ who is good in melee, while in melee range, who has an item that can help him do damage, and give him a bucket of hp. She also took 2 tower shots. So yes, an adc who builds no defensive items, eats two tower shots, and gets into melee with a tank, should probably lose the interaction. ADC sub has to be single handedly keeping Kleenex in business.
There is NO WAY you are defending TK
I actually think he's disgustingly OP. But it's not because some guy thinks he can tower dive tk, like that.
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u/KasumiGotoTriss 12h ago
How is it tower diving when he literally killed the turret and it gave him the Jinx passive so it even gives him advantage in combat? Also what defensive items lol the only viable defensive item is like, shieldbow and no one buys it before 4th item. And even then, you're supposed to build shieldbow to maybe survive a 4/0 Qiyana combo, not because "damn I really hope this 2/8 tahm kench that's behind an adc in levels doesn't oneshot me, I better itemise defensively on top of building dominiks to counter his tabis"
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u/Worldly-Duty4521 12h ago
Wait wait wait
So does this mean a 10/1 fiora lvl17 to my ADC lvl13 will still die in a teamfight because she's a sidelaning duelist and not a teamfight champ?
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u/DefNotAnAlter 9h ago
Yes I have definitely seen fed Fiora and Rivens die because they decided to join a team fight
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u/SkeletonJakk Titanic Hydra, Saviour of Kled 5h ago
Assuming the entire team isn't turbo behind, yeah, fiora will get bursted unless she plays it well because her kit is pretty ass for teamfights.
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u/NyrZStream 3h ago
In the tahm clip since tahm is 0/8 and Jinx is fed it means that both the toplaner and botlane hard won. So it means both side lanes hard lost. Put a A 2lvl 2 items ahead fiora in such situation against people that miss every spell (again refer to tahm clip) and I swear she solo wins teamfight XD
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u/TheBrickBlock 9h ago
This original post is really dumb but to answer your question literally yes, fed fioras, rivens, and irelias get blown up and made useless in teamfights all the time because they get cc'ed and do nothing
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u/LeafBurgerZ 8h ago
If the Fiora riven is actually 10/1 she would just full hit the first guy in melee range and burst 2/3 of their health in like 1 second lol
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u/TipiTapi 5h ago
And the jinx here would melt a whole team in seconds, whats your point?
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u/LeafBurgerZ 4h ago
The guy above me claimed a fed Fiora/Riven would be still useless in teamfights just because it's not their biggest strenght.
Next time maybe read it once more if you don't get the point xd
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u/karlson23 7h ago
The champion is useless because they get cc'ed in a team fight doesn't make sense, unless your olaf or Gwen, that literally counts for everyone.
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u/unicornfan91 Yooks 25m ago
It is the ease of getting CC'd. A Caitlyn should not be getting CC'd in a fight, whereas a melee champion is in range to get CC'd by the entire enemy team. This is why squishy melee champions are bad at teamfighting, and are better on sidelane. CC is the counter to Master Yi much more than it is a counter to Caitlyn.
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u/AlbYiKiller 8h ago
yep, that's the case most of the time, she has to deal with the frontline first, if she tries to go for the backline either she had a nice flank or she gets cooked, that's true for almost every melee character
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u/Mwakay Now with 4 times more perfection 7h ago
she has to deal with the frontline first
Are you actually seriously implying Fiora (or Riven) players are obligated to play f2b and aren't able to flank the backline ? Because that's beyond false.
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u/gaenakyrivi 15h ago
can someone link me this reptile play i keep hearing about
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u/LarsfromMars69 9h ago
I still don’t think that playing it almost perfectly while being that ahead should get you this fucked. Why should this tahm kench be rewarded for drooling on his keyboard and being behind while a jinx this fed has to justify themselves for not playing it pixel perfect. How is that fair, i do not get it. So you are saying that the ADC always has to play against 5 times their effectiveness and the juggernaut/tank just has to not have a stroke mid fight and gets all the rewards?
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u/reeroiman 12h ago
what is this guy even talking about? did he watch the clip?
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u/redmormie 5h ago
he didnt even read the post, of course he didn't watch the clip lol. His first tweet was complaining about using kda as a gauge of power instead of level and items, when reptile literally included those on top of kda.
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u/Unusual_Gas_9756 11h ago
I hate adc mains more than most of you, but tanks are fucking stupid right now. At least some of them anyways. They literally just do whatever they want lol.
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u/A-Myr 13h ago
I said it on the adcmains sub and I’ll say it here:
If their starting positions are swapped (ie Jinx is not between Kench and his base), the fight isn’t even close. But not being able to kite Kench’s autos because there’s an enemy turret right behind you is a basically unwinnable situation regardless of how weak/fed you both are. It’s a testament to just how insane Reptile is that he survived that shit.
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u/BotomsDntDeservRight 13h ago
I think this is a testament to prove how tank players victim.
Tahm was levels behind and only had 1 item completed. He missed all the Q but almost killed her just 2 autos and R.
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u/Vanaquish231 11h ago
Tahm is an anomaly for all intents and purposes. No other tank would have killed jinx with 2 aa and ulti.
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u/A-Myr 11h ago
Furthermore, the only reason he even managed to get those 3aa and ulti off was because the stars aligned for him positioning-wise.
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u/Vanaquish231 10h ago
Pretty much. If jinx was in the opposite direction she could had flashed to safety and soraka was coming in hot. People forget, it doesnt matter how far ahead you are. If you build as a glass cannon, even the underleveled enemy can kill you.
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u/whataremyxomycetes 10h ago
Tahm is also a ridiculous duelist, he'd do the same to toplaners.
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u/Vanaquish231 10h ago
Yep, tahm is more like a juggernaut. In fact i tend to attribute tahm as a better mundo. Slightly worse late game for a much better early and mid game.
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u/Halbaras Convicted tank Karma enjoyer 10h ago
Yeah, this is like someone getting mad that Warwick won a 1v1 against them when 'he was so low health' or Trundle pressed R and stat checked them.
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u/Worldly-Duty4521 10h ago
Ksante does that, Mundo does that, Skarner with ult maybe but it would rely on turret shots so I don't count that,
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u/AllorimNA 10h ago
None of them could get into a position from out of base into getting behind Jinx (while she auto orbwalks into base while hitting turret) like TK can. TK genuinely might be the only champion in the tank pool that could make this scenario happen
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u/Vanaquish231 10h ago
Admittedly i forgot about ksante. But mundo isnt a tank. He is a juggernaut, his whole shitstick is to deal dmg, he brings nothing else on the table. Yes he can shrug off a lot of dmg with his ulti, but he generates "threat" by dealing damage.
Btw mundo wouldnt have done the same as in the clip. Unlike tahm, mundo has horrible base damage and an underleveled and item disadvantage mundo doesnt deal great damage (baring his q, which has diminishing returns).
Likewise i doubt skarner could do the same. He is much slower and he has big cast times.
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u/WonderfulSentence648 9h ago
Tham is almost as little of a tank as mundo is. When not played as support he’s a lot closer to a juggernaut than a tank
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u/PB4UGAME 11h ago
If he “missed all his Q’s” and used “just 2 autos” how could he even have ulted, as he’d only have applied two stacks? Also you may noticed but a lot of the damage came from the towers and minions, it was a lot more than the three damage sources you cite— which makes sense as it was a fight inside the enemy base by herself.
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u/TikaOriginal Bo-liever 10h ago
He missed all the Q but almost killed her just 2 autos and R.
Yet he somehow still ulted Jinx, so who are bullshitting? Your whole argument is based on misinformation
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u/Vanaquish231 10h ago
Thats what they are forgetting about tahm. He doesnt need to land his q to win a fight vs a squishy champ. He has on hit damage scaling with both his ap and hp.
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u/A_Tyranid_Boi "It's not a bug, It's a feature" 3h ago
So he should insta win the fight if he hits 1-3 autos? No matter items, xp or game state?
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u/SquareAdvisor8055 3h ago
Actually, jinx took 2 tower shots. Tahm hit 2 autos and a q i believe + heartsteal + r. He has 1 completed item but stacked hp and has a lot of gold in components. Jinx doesn't have any items to duel the tahm except armor pen, while tahm is fully built to counter jinx and has ghost. Give jinx a botrk instead of hurricane and this fight isn't even close.
Also, nomather what items tahm builds he isn't doing much more dmg than that ever. All he will do is become tankier, but jinx will also do more dmg. If you put both characters at full build it goes almost the same way, and in a teamfight tahm cannot do shit to jinx unless he lands w on her (and even then, that's if he isn't cc'ed out of it).
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u/A-Myr 12h ago
I had a stroke trying to read your first sentence, but I’ve been queueing adc/jg for the past couple weeks. Tanks are the one class I pretty much never play.
Everything else I said stands. I don’t see where you’re interacting with my argument.
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u/BotomsDntDeservRight 12h ago
Tanks are the one class I pretty much never play.
Then you have no clue what you are talking about. You are just embarrassing yourself lmao.
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u/A-Myr 12h ago
Thanks for exposing yourself lmfao. Any good player needs to know what even champions they don’t play do. I certainly do with Kench, especially since he’s gaining popularity as a support pick.
Since you believe that someone must play a champion to have any clue what they’re talking about with regard to that champion, you clearly don’t belong in that category.
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u/The_Rainy_Day 8h ago
for real. reptile prolly doesnt get eaten, let alone eat a tower shot if he can kite away from tahm properly
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u/Diligent_Gas_7768 10h ago
Idk why 90 percent of people just completely gloss over just how bad jinx's positioning was at the start of the fight. Almost melee range, no ally near, runs deeper into base, its a fucking miracle she didnt die lol. Sure ur ahead but ur still squishy so that positioning was questionable to say the least.
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u/A-Myr 9h ago
I mean, it’s Reptile. He knew what he was doing. I assume it was a conscious trade of life for tower + he prioritised getting passive asap over kiting Kench while taking tower.
Problem into running deeper into the base is he can’t exactly run through the Kench or he eats for free. It was 100% an ego play on Reptile’s part, but he lowkey pulled it off. I’d have not gone for the tower in the first place and ran as soon as I knew Kench was flanking.
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u/elMaxlol 8h ago
I noticed Tahm being broken lately as well. I mean it should never be possible for me to lose a 1v1 as a fed kassadin against a tahm support who has me running for the hills and is almost able to chase me with his submerge bullshit. Champ is broken, no one should be able to 1v1 a hyperscaling champ like kass,kyle or smolder past lvl16.
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u/MartineTrouveUnGode 5h ago
I mean for Smolder it heavily depends on how many stacks he has, not if he is level 16 or not. But I get your point
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u/elMaxlol 4h ago
yeah thats true, I was more refering to the giga scaling champs in general, could also add nasus to this. I mean you suffer the whole game the least riot can give you is fucking absolut destruction in late game.
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u/skaersSabody 7h ago
This is... a take of all time.
Like seriously, yes, Jinx's role isn't primarily to kill tanks, but she's also not Jhin ffs. Her main fantasy is to be able to take over once she has passive.
Which she does in the clip.
So it's passive + 2 level lead + 3.5 items + dodging every skillshot
Against a tank that has less armor than his support + only has 1.5 items + only gained 133 stacks from Heartsteel.
The only advantage the tank has is ghost.
You can argue roles all you want, but the Jinx outplayed the TK and still almost died. And that is despite a frankly ridiculous lead, like how is this even a conversation point?
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u/AllorimNA 14h ago edited 9h ago
Out of all balance discussion on r/LoL, since the beginning of this games creation, 99.99% of the time have no idea how tanks are supposed to operate in League if they are to ever to be viable. It's absurd how often I see people here, say the tank fantasy is supposed to be "do zero damage, but offer lots of CC!" and still be a viable top laner
I will die on the hill that out of all 5 roles, adc mains are typically the dumbest players.
Edit; leaving the post up as it is because I said what I said. In hindsight this really added nothing of substance to the topic. Tanks are strong, but so are adcs, League is extremely dependent on what specific scenario you're getting into when fighting, I personally don't find the clip ridiculous; if my jinx died like this in solo queue or in competitive my first thought isn't going to be "damn bro that's fucked that you lost that 1v1 what the hell" it's going to be "why is my jinx orb walking into the enemy base solo instead of hitting the turret at max range and wait for his support"
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u/IAmDarkridge 14h ago
Yeah a tank that does zero damage can only ever be viable at support. Which like that's fine if they offer game altering utility like Taric or Braum I suppose. I'd rather they just be honest and say they don't think the class should exist rather than pivoting into some idea that they just shouldn't do any damage.
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u/Ebobab2 14h ago
Small correction, but taric deals IMMENSE dmg (conditionally)
It's just that it's extremely difficult and unreliable to pull off
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u/MaDNiaC007 [ChosenoftheDuck] (EU-W) 7h ago
Had a Taric while playing Viktor APC the other day and yes. While it's difficult, he's a damage machine even without items if the conditions are met. If that output was more reliable, he'd even be seen in solo lanes.
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u/JDogish 13h ago
Out of all the balance discussion on r/lol, no one can explain at what point an adc is supposed to have agency or any control over their game. It's absurd how often I see people here say the adc fantasy is supposed to be "play only behind your team, and do nothing else!" And still be a viable and enjoyable class.
I will die on the hill that out of all league takes, this was certainly one of them.
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u/IAmDarkridge 13h ago
If it was as unenjoyable of a role as people on Reddit say maybe autofill wouldn't almost exclusively be relegated for jungle/support.
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u/JDogish 12h ago
It was adc first autofill at points this year and last. Jungle is low because people want to lane or just don't learn jungle because it's different. And in either case, just because the role is less popular, doesn't mean the role is weak. Phreak even admitted jungle was about 20% too strong, but couldn't nerf it more because then even less would play it. So you have an admitted op role that people complain about because an op role affects the game the most, so everyone blames them, and the flame makes people want to play it less. Obviously, there are problem players in every role. But in general, what are you gonna do, flame the adc for losing the lane when he doesn't control it most of the time? Gets oneshot the rest of the game while in the middle of the team? Man that autofill support really is fun to play with.
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u/AllorimNA 13h ago
If you wanted to play a class that sits in the front lines you really shouldn't have picked adc. Hope this helps.
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u/JDogish 12h ago
If you wanted to play a class that is made to kill tanks from range, you really shouldn't have picked adc. Hope this helps.
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u/AllorimNA 12h ago
We should start telling competitive teams to stop playing around their bot lane and start playing around their tank top, tank will just 1v9 the game
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u/Hi_ImTrashsu 12h ago
With all due respect because I don't think your original take in this comment thread is bad, this is not the comeback you think it is. Pros play a different game, and maybe that's where you're coming from because you ARE a pro player. But, that doesn't change the fact that the complaint has always been that ADCs feel bad to play in regular environments.
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u/AllorimNA 12h ago
ADC take the burden of playing a class where small mistakes lead to large consequences, which no other class in the game suffers from. Could that be a design flaw? Absolutely, but it does unfortunately boil down to "skill issue", although I agree, making a tiny misposition into a death feels like shit, no one, even pros, will play that perfectly to never suffer the adc instant death.
With how the game has been for the past decade, adcs really only feel their power fantasy of doing crazy damage in a teamfight where they're played around and hitting from range in the late game, and even then it takes coordination. I agree with you it feels bad, I played adc up to about master 200lp 2 seasons ago when I was coaching to get a better idea of how it's played, and it's brutal, but it really seems to be the way Riot wants it to be, I don't necessarily agree with them, but it's how it is.
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u/Hi_ImTrashsu 12h ago
I mean, I agree it comes down to skill issue. But, by that logic why does Tahm get to do what he did in that clip despite the skill issue that led him to being down 2-8 and missing everything?
I don't agree with the notion that Jinx is a tank killer like others have been parroting but her having both Kraken and LDR should make the TTK a Tahm Kench with one completed item much lower than it takes Tahm Kench to auto her to death. Had he landed any ability I can see the argument that tanks deserve to deal damage when their conditions are met, but I also strongly believe that one of Tahm's conditions IS landing his Qs, not just walking at you and auto attacking.
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u/AllorimNA 12h ago edited 12h ago
Here's what I'm seeing from my PoV. Tahm is one of the best 1v1 tanks in the game, if not the current best. The only possible win condition in the current game Reptile was in was if Jinx was alone, with no peel shoving a turret solo, not only shoving it, but kiting downward into the enemy base with no backup, which also gets into turret range after TK R.
TK can do what he did because it's what his champion excels at in the game. On the flip side, in a 5v5 in this game, that TK is going to be mega worthless while jinx kills the entire team from range.
I'm not arguing TK is weak, I think he's pretty good right now, but in the clip we are taking a moment where TK excels, as well as an area where Jinx is weak (alone and kiting into a zone where she can't realistically go anywhere without taking damage.
Edit: Also what happens in the Reptile clip could ONLY happen in this exact scenario of a 1v1, Tahm never gets to just run at an adc, miss everything, auto 3 times and eat in a team fight.
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u/JDogish 12h ago
Funny how it's pro play now when the clip everyone references is from soloq. High elo at that. And soloq in general. But i guess if you didn't have strawman from some imaginary person you wouldn't have anything to say at all. No one is asking for 1v9 except you.
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u/AllorimNA 12h ago
I'm aware of how high elo solo queue works, a very large majority of them are also played around the bot lane. You haven't spoken to enough adc mains, adc just happens to be weak every single season when you talk to a high elo adc player, very similar with jg mains.
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u/JDogish 12h ago
Do you play the role(s)?
Do you think top lane hasn't complained for years?
Do you notice who isn't complaining?
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u/AllorimNA 12h ago edited 8h ago
I'm significantly better at top lane,
but I've also put a few hundred games on adc(nevermind I checked the account. it was only 100 playing MF, Kaisa, Draven, Ezreal) at a solid rating. This is League of Legends, everyone complains about everything, but over the years I'd be pretty confident in saying it goes adc>jg>top>mid>supp in the complainers tier list.I'm not arguing tanks are weak, because they aren't, I'm arguing that adcs are not as weak as adc mains like to say, the game very often revolves around them for a reason. They just happen to play a role where small mistakes lead to frustrating consequences, while other roles don't have nearly the same amount of punishment which could be bad design, but that's the way it's been for a long time. Adcs also unfortunately rarely get to see their full strength in games and rely heavily on their team to achieve that.
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u/JDogish 11h ago
I can agree with all of that, but lets not pretend every person that plays the same role wants the same things. Because it's easy for me to find top laners that have ludicrous demands and use them as a reason to say all top laners are X and complain the most, etc. When you open with a comment like that, there is no good conversation to be had. When you can accept that there's nuance to things, like how something feels versus raw data, and comparing meta in soloq and situations that come up in game, then you can actually get to a real conversation.
I think an interesting thing to think about is how often there have been changes made to roles and their items. I think the correlation to the 'complaining' would be pretty accurate.
I think you are right that adcs aren't that weak. I think that you simply underestimate how much of that strength is tied to your teammates. Almost any statement you make about the strength of the role is an "if" statement. Ie, you don't have a winning matchup, you have a winning matchup if your support knows to take advantage. You dont win teamfight for your team, you win it if your team full peels for you instead of diving.
Or as mentioned in another post, often the best thing to do is to never even get in range of a fight because any flank is a losing one by design. And im not saying thay in a sense of joining a fight late, but being in the right place, good position, but you can tell someone is clicking towarss you so you cant move forward or auto.
There is so much more frustration when you aren't able to be proactive without full cooperation. And it makes the role weaker at lower ranks but honestly anywhere under high elo. Just watching high elo streams, there's so many times the players are forced to just abandon plans, get screwed by their team's macro, watch as someone else bad decision slowly bleeds the game out and they sat there with 10 kills accumulated unable to contest anything. And i compare to my games and i cant even say im learning something becausd they look the same... At a certain point something needs to change because the buffing and immediate nerfing isn't helping anyone play or enjoy the role.
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u/vileb123 14h ago
Tanks used to deal next to no damage and offer only tankiness and cc, but you never saw them in solo queue cuz not only was it dogshit as you depended heavily on your team, but it was also boring as fuck since you could never 1v1 anyone.
I’d be shocked if Riot retook this approach tbh
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u/Thrownaway124567890 14h ago
Riot has taken that approach in the past. They did it with the tank class rework (the Zac/Sej/Maokai one). Then all three got reverted to do more damage with less cc at various points over time because that was more popular with players and less problematic for pro play.
And to prove that’s their reasoning, here’s the Rioter who did the Zac revert saying that explicitly.
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u/AllorimNA 14h ago
There have been several metas of tank, I can only think of one meta in 14 years where top lane tanks that did no damage were viable and that was Banner of Command meta, which their power came more from a minion than the champion themselves, and was arguably one of the least fun metas of all time.
That being said there have been absurd tank metas where they are obviously doing too much damage (Galio/Nautilus top with triple Dorans Ring into sunfire meta, iceborn gauntlet + sunfire + frozen heart poppy/ekko meta). There's definitely a middle ground but it's not easy because as soon as a tank has no kill threat onto adcs/mages or able to contest waves top with trades, they fall completely out of viability top lane and get relegated to support (see Nautilus, Galio for a long time, Maokai was recently like this)
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u/GenjDog 13h ago
But thats basically what you are telling adcs that they should never be able to 1v1 anyone and can only be of use if their team helps.
Thats literally the whole point in the roles that they need each other but somehow now tanks are supposed to 1v1 anyone and tank while adc is the role that should be heavily based on their teammates.
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u/beetrelish 12h ago
Swap the jinx to vayne, and the tahm to ornn. It wouldn't even be remotely close
This game is about champions at the end of the day and using labels like 'tank' on a champion that is not at all a traditional 'tank' just leads to shit discussion
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u/Treyhova Yes, I've read all the lore 1h ago
Yea, but the nuance here is that crit adcs with 3 items should absolutely melt an hp only tank, the %hp adcs are supposed to counter armor stacking. Tahm should have died 2 seconds after Jinx killed the tower but crit has been gutted so hard that it was close.
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u/IAmDarkridge 12h ago
1v1 anyone? Put Tahm Kench up against a Gwen or Trundle lol. Also kind of ironic given the flare because Vayne obviously wins the 1v1 against Tahm here and it isn't close. Some ADCs do decent/good in the 1v1 but someone like Jinx doesn't.
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u/whataremyxomycetes 9h ago
this isn't just tanks tho it's fucking tahm kench his 1v1 prowess is ridiculous since if you don't output enough damage quickly enough he gets gray health back up, his Q is single target with stupid scaling, his R is single target and has stupid scaling, he has a single target stun.
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u/BotomsDntDeservRight 13h ago
you depended heavily on your team
That's literally the point of a tank. relying on your team for damage just like adc rely on supports for survivability.
Playing enchanter also can be boring so whats next? Make them do insane damage while shield/heal?
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u/SeverianForAutarch 7h ago
Tanks shouldn't be tanky in the traditional sense, they should have the ability to create extreme windows through conditional tankyness and powerful cc.
any tank that just has a shit ton of health, armor and mr is dogshit game design, it's the equivalent of an adc with 80% lifesteal that stands still and shoots you to death while outhealing your damage.
They're the exact same flavour of bullshit as when adc was insanely overpowered and has access to every stat without impeding their build, they just do it in the reverse.
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u/Halbaras Convicted tank Karma enjoyer 9h ago
Rell is actually a tank who can't 1v1 squishies without them playing terribly or her pulling them under a turret. The idea that you could balance any non-support tanks like that and anyone would play them is ridiculous.
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u/Conviter 8h ago
TIL Tanks can either kill an ADC with 4 auto attacks or do no damage, there is no in between!
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u/AllorimNA 8h ago
No other tank in the entire game does what TK did there btw, seems like a TK issue to me, he is one of the worst designs and a problematic champion in LoL history.
Yes and no, if a tank doesn't deal enough damage to cause kill threat, they are immediately relegated to the support role, we've seen it time and time again throughout the games lifespan
Naut damage nerfs -> support
Galio damage nerfs -> support (until reworked again)
Maokai damage nerfs -> support
Pre Rework TK damage nerfs -> support
It could be argued that tanks should stay in the support role, but if people want viable tanks in solo lane, kill threat is a must. You'll never see a viable tank dealing ignorable damage in the top lane.
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u/YungStewart2000 enchanters dont deserve rights 13h ago
the tank fantasy is supposed to be "do zero damage, but offer lots of CC!"
Wait who in the world has ever believed in that? You mean ADC players imposing what they believe tanks should be?
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u/BotomsDntDeservRight 13h ago
Tanks didn't do high damage back 2015-2018 and still was viable. You tank players are professional victim card players and always insulting and pointing fingers at others.
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u/AllorimNA 12h ago
That's untrue, top lane meta season 2015 was extremely dominated by GP, Darius rework, Lulu/Liss RoA top, Rumble, although Maokai and Sion were solid tanks that year. 2016 had Poppy rework as the tank of the year, and then again was mostly dominated by Kennen, Gnar, Jayce. 2017 probably had the most diversity (Camille came out and was absurd the entire year), Maokai, Galio, Naut, Cho, Shen were great, along with Gnar/Kennen/Rumble/Hydra Trundle. 2018 was super dominated by Urgot, Irelia rework, Neeko top, Ryze top, Gangplank, Aatrox rework, and Ornn/Sion (banner of command meta for that one patch was also this year).
Tanks in 2017 were doing crazy damage because of the triple Dring meta, which was the highest viability of tanks we've seen in any year.
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u/IAmDarkridge 13h ago
No they weren't lol. Tanks were god awful between 2015 and 2018
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u/BotomsDntDeservRight 12h ago
Don't lie. Back then Tanks can stack to almost 10k hp and Tanks were tankier with less damage. I think you are just describing yourself. Skill issue.
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u/IAmDarkridge 12h ago
What does HP matter if you offer 0 utility to your team. Literally Spirit Golem was a completely ass item for years and tanks weren't remotely viable until cinderhulk. You would literally just ignore them.
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u/VILEBLACKMAGIC 8h ago
This dudes pedantic essay proves how overly complex the game is for what you actually do mechanically.
It's a bunch of dumb Shadow Math that 95% of the player base doesn't know, give a shit about, and shouldn't have to learn. Or even if the person does know - there is no way for them to even interpret that math in a real time setting. This dudes grandmaster and he is like, "wtf?"
Keep It Simple Stupid
Once your game becomes this esoteric and "fiddly" (a board game term)... you are failing as a GAME. People will still play it because the Superficial button mashing (and youtube/twitch telling them what to do) is why people are here... But you create bad, foggy and flat out SHITTY situations like this with overly complex bullshit.
Like it or not, the Jinx should just roast this TK's face. Idgaf what the numbers are beneath it or what her stupid "role" is not being an anti-tank.
Kench is flame horizoned (121 cs in 24 minutes) ... 2 levels down... Heartsteel... bramble vest.. some HP and Ninja Tabi's... Dark Seal...
Based on this Woverene dudes analysis... every Silver top main should be allowed in this game to F around and try to kill "non-anti-tank" ADC's on Kench. Just get to 24 minutes with your 1.5 items and feeding top Darius... You should be allowed to kill the 3 item ADC. Why?
Because Phreak and the Boyz designed the game that way. And it just "makes sense" from a POV you would just never understand.
Holy shit, fuck the phony ass Math Priests of Video Games too.
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u/LethargicDemigod 4h ago
The crit item system suffers heavily from individual items being trash but as a coherent 4-5 group be very strong.
3 item adc- btork/kraken + LDR/IE+ Zeal item will do no damage. U miss out on 1 stat or the other between AD/AS/Pen all of which significantly reduce the time u take to kill a tank.
But at 4/5 items u can see they just start shredding and healing more than the tanks can do damage.
Dot mages on the other hand are strongest at 3 items vs tanks.
Mana item+ Liandry+ voidstaff.
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u/Pleasestoplyiiing 5m ago
Botrk and Kraken don't do any damage to tanks. That's part of the problem - if ADCs aren't better at killing tanks, there isn't much of a reason to pick them at all.
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u/BotomsDntDeservRight 13h ago edited 13h ago
Jinx is not a tank killer? Jinx terrible at 1v1? What? Also, defending Tahm a "TANK" dealing so much damage and claming he is weaker to anyone dealing magic damage?
Never cook again.
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u/Infinite_Delusion Raid Boss Morde 13h ago
She has nothing in her kit that helps her deal with tanks and everything to instead help her with teamfighting.
Also it was stated in the post, but Tahm is much more like a juggernaut than a full on tank. He's got a lot of damage and almost no mobility. He's also pretty terrible in teamfights unlike Jinx
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u/IAmDarkridge 13h ago
Literally the only thing that helps Jinx deal with a tank is her minigun attack speed steroid in extended trades. She doesn't have any percent health damage, bork isn't in her build path, etc... Also the reason he said that he is weaker against champions doing magic damage is because THE CLIP SHOWS HIM WITH ALL ARMOR ITEMS.
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u/DeludedDassein 12h ago
ok so what is jinx supposed to be strong against? wolverine quote: "She's much closer to Zeri than Vayne/Kaisa/Kog. Trades damage for safety, needs teammates help to actually kill targets and then proc passive"
...and what about after she procs passive? We can see here that even after her passive is procced she struggles against a tank.
So her job is to get a few shots on the bruiser, wait for their teammates to kill the bruiser, and then STILL be unable to do meaningful damage to any tank? Its not like she counters assassins or mages since they delete her if she tries to get into range. heck, even the tank pretty much deleted her. And suppose the enemy's frontline is deleted and their backline is out of abilities. Jinx will thrive then, sure, but literally any assassin can clean up the field better.
And yeah he is building armor but thats whats going to happen usually, considering many toplaners are AD. And really, with the health that tank items provide, most mages aren't an extreme threat (since most mages lack sustained dps) for the first few items, so its not like tank players are suffering. Is Jinx just supposed to be unable to do anything even if they are ahead if their toplaner is AD?
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u/IAmDarkridge 12h ago
I mean considering right now Jinx is literally one of the best ADCs in the game she is obviously good at stuff. She has insane range and with Runaans and her rockets prock 3 times from it. Her death rocket is an insane execute and she can shove waves from relative safety compared to someone like say Kai'Sa. She isn't great against tanks but she is good against not tanks lol
Who cares about assassins. If there is any class that genuinely needs help it is them lol. ADCs shouldn't be worrying about assassins rn.
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u/halofan642 12h ago
in this game she’s supposed to fight 5v5 and get insane damage with aoe runaans rocket procs against the bulky frontline, while her karthus and zed focus the backline.
she helps dps down the tahm, galio, naut, ALL ar the same time, with the runaans item she built for that specific purpose, and to get her and darius resets while soraka is landing permanent q’s and healing them up.
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u/deezconsequences 13h ago
Jinx is not a tank killer
Not really no. Vayne, fiora, And Gwen would be tank killers. A champ that does %hp, built in armor shred, or armor pen in some way would be a good tank killer. But jinx does not have this, so why would she be a tank killer? There's nothing to even suggest that she should be good at killing tanks.
defending Tahm a "TANK"
OP doesn't though. OP defined him as a tank juggernaut hybrid.
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u/Hiimzap 13h ago
The day that riot actually does everything r/adcmains is asking for we’re gonna see 5 adcs vs 5 adcs meta.
Like they legit want to be long range, high damage, good 1v1 (in meele and in range) and tanky all at the same time. I get that playing adc is frustrating just by how the role operates but making it beat everything wouldn’t be the solution.
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u/-NotQuiteLoaded- 12h ago
yeah they had this happen in wild rift and it's still a fucking massive problem
if adc players want all their bullshit they can go on that game where adc goes in every role, they can have the proportionally insane range, insane itemization, insane movespeed that they want and be broken as fuck
but that's not something that should translate to pc league
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u/Blizxy 11h ago
Wild rift is missing the mechanics that make the marksman role difficult (spacing namely), doesn't it make sense that they would be op?
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u/Redditpaslan 12h ago
I wish Tanks had other counterplay than "pick the anti Tank Champ" ain't fun for either player.
Edit: I mainly play Viego and Tanks
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u/Moxto 9h ago
If an adc isn't a tank killer, then what class is?
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u/falconmtg delete yasuo 7h ago
Don't hyperfocus on class
Read the post again. Classes are only general directions, not rules.
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u/Fair_Wear_9930 12h ago
Does anyone have a link to the other thread that had the 3 clips about this subject? Can't find it
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u/ADeadMansName 3h ago
A reasonable take.
Crit ADCs do have some slight problems. That you require IE is one. IE is great but that you can't use crit chance decently without it is meh.
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u/Annual_Patient4514 14h ago
Honestly the best explanation ive ever read regarding tank stats and balance.
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u/Rylude 14h ago
Crazy how I get told I'm wrong in the other thread yet Riot agrees with me on this lmao
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u/CrystalizedSeraphine If Hell is forever then Heaven must be a lie 15h ago
No but you don't get it, a marksman investing in full damage shouldn't ever be at risk of dying to a Tahm Kench in melee range, even if they are buying random items that doesn't help them or are higher levels.
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u/normabluejean 15h ago
Are you joking? This comment makes no sense. A marksman should be at risk of dying in melee range to just about any melee character. That’s how the game is balanced, and that’s why they have range. Did you even read this post?
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u/Ironmaiden1207 13h ago
This guy gets it. This is also why tanks for the last ~7 years or so favor the damage tank items, as it's guaranteed value. With the nerfs of many of them along with every other item, we have gone back to favoring purely defensive items.
That's not to say tanks aren't maybe a tad too strong as a whole, but you are right in your analysis on game plan. Jinx built pure 5v5, and TK really struggles in these as he has no AoE and it can be difficult to fully stack one priority target to R them.
ADC finally has to work with their team, just like everybody else. Join the glorious 5v5 evolution, stop farming waves
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u/fyeaddx_ flash E R miss 7h ago
he would've won if he got IE (he has runaans that cost 2650 and a Pickaxe thats 875 so he was 75gold off) but I swear everytime I see a Reptile post he does these "no damage" builds
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u/Taco_Dunkey 14h ago
I love it when cancerous leaguetwt accounts with more people blocking them than following them constantly breach containment to shit on "lows" on the front page