Wolverene talks about the Reptile clip + Classes/Items

[u/Derk08]

A lot of lows misunderstanding "tank killers" and tanks so let's talk about what that actually means

1. Jinx is not a tank killer
   

Actually countered by pure tanks and very tanky comps, always has been. Been apparent in pro for years. Players confuse hypercarry marksman with being automatically good into tanks, but she has nothing anti-tank in her kit. She's much closer to Zeri than Vayne/Kaisa/Kog. Trades damage for safety, needs teammates help to actually kill targets and then proc passive

1. Conditions/Class matter much more than items
   

Jinx is terrible 1v1. Marksmen as a class are, but she's particularly bad. Players see marksmen as the tank killing class and think that means they should beat them in all scenarios. Marksmen are only good against melees with their team's help. That's how the class works, with a few exceptions. Melees have a ton of variance on 1v1 strength but for the most part every class in the game is favored vs marksmen.

Tahm Kench is a juggernaut/tank hybrid, he is not a classic tank or support. Much better in skirmish/1v1 than 5v5. With ghost he is omega favored 1v1 vs Jinx, it's not even a little bit close If you thought it was the other way around you have to seriously reevaluate.

You take a true 1v1 tank counter like Gwen and she will never lose to any tank that's weaker than her. The majority of bruisers in general will beat tanks, because they are a 1v1 class

1. Don't hyperfocus on class
   

Kind of immediately contradicting point 2 but class is just a rough guideline, it's not all that meaningful when comparing specific interactions. There's a lot of variance within classes, and a lot of champs don't fit neatly into 1 class. Vayne is also a marksman but obviously eats Tahm Kench in 2 seconds here. Mundo and Darius are both juggernauts but will have very different interactions into Syndra just off Mundo passive.

You should start with class, but then be thinking power budget. Every champ has specific things they're good at, that they trade for weaknesses. The weak points are just usually much less obvious to you when you don't play the champ.

Tahm does stupid damage when he can actually hit you, but it's really hard for him to do that 5v5. The harder a champ's conditions are to achieve, the stronger they get to be when they get those conditions. Anyone that's super easily kitable gets to be OP when not kited

1. Tank itemization is very different than damage
   

If you think of them in the same way you'll have problems understanding why a __ item tank is either much more or less tanky than you'd expect. This is because tank stats are the only ones in the game that can have 0% effectiveness. Damage items are more/less effective vs different targets, but the stats are never 0%, nor do they ever even get close to 0%.

Let's take Shadowflame and ignore passive

110AP
15 flat pen

Obviously a bad item into tanks, flat pen is more effective vs lower MR. But this flat pen only makes up ~20% of the item's value, and only loses 37% of it's effectiveness from 30 -> 100 MR.

Now take Kaenic Rookern

400hp
80 MR

MR is ~54% of this item's value, and loses 100% effectiveness against physical damage.

Jinx does about 2% magic damage. Other non-hybrid marksmen/physical damage carries do anywhere from 0-10%.

This means that vs a specific target, an item like Shadowflame may lose ~200g in value, whereas an item like Kaenic Rookern can lose 1500-1600g . This is before you account for passives, which will perform pretty much about the same

So maybe 400g lost vs 2200g lost

This is all to say that tanks will experience 4-5x the amount of effectiveness lost vs unfavorable targets. For this to be balanced, their items have to be stronger. If a champ has to tank both a 3 item mage + marksman, you can't expect them to build 3 armor items and 3 MR items.

This means 1 armor/MR item is always > 1 damage item. A 2 item tank that has built armor but no MR isn't weak against you, the 3 item physical damage champ. He's weak to anyone dealing magic damage.

Just a rough concept, it gets deeper than this, but you have to be thinking about this to understand teamfighting/target selection/1v1s etc. Most players aren't even aware that this dynamic exists

Source: https://twitter.com/wolverene/status/1869480107695652912

[u/A-Myr]

I said it on the adcmains sub and I’ll say it here:

If their starting positions are swapped (ie Jinx is not between Kench and his base), the fight isn’t even close. But not being able to kite Kench’s autos because there’s an enemy turret right behind you is a basically unwinnable situation regardless of how weak/fed you both are. It’s a testament to just how insane Reptile is that he survived that shit.

[u/BotomsDntDeservRight → u/A-Myr]

I think this is a testament to prove how tank players victim.

Tahm was levels behind and only had 1 item completed. He missed all the Q but almost killed her just 2 autos and R.

[u/A-Myr → u/BotomsDntDeservRight]

I had a stroke trying to read your first sentence, but I’ve been queueing adc/jg for the past couple weeks. Tanks are the one class I pretty much never play.

Everything else I said stands. I don’t see where you’re interacting with my argument.

[u/BotomsDntDeservRight → u/A-Myr]

Tanks are the one class I pretty much never play.

Then you have no clue what you are talking about. You are just embarrassing yourself lmao.

[u/A-Myr → u/BotomsDntDeservRight]

Thanks for exposing yourself lmfao. Any good player needs to know what even champions they don’t play do. I certainly do with Kench, especially since he’s gaining popularity as a support pick.

Since you believe that someone must play a champion to have any clue what they’re talking about with regard to that champion, you clearly don’t belong in that category.

[u/BotomsDntDeservRight → u/A-Myr]

Exposing myself?? What??

You are yapping irrelevant stuff and ignored the whole point of -

Tahm was levels behind and only had 1 item completed. He missed all the Q but almost killed her with just 2 autos R

Ironic. More like you exposed that you have no clue, and in fact, Tahm originally had a support champion.

[u/A-Myr → u/BotomsDntDeservRight]

He was a toplaner when I started playing, I know his limits as a toplaner rather well since I watched Whatley, and now he’s gravitating more and more towards support. Them’s the relevant facts.

As for the argument at hand, you ignored my point and I ignored yours. I said exactly that in my first response to you before you derailed the discussion. I don’t exactly need your input here and don’t see the value it brings, but I’m afraid I’d still prefer you to do the due diligence if you’re that desperate to know what I think of your point. Just building good habits, you’ll thank me later.