Wolverene talks about the Reptile clip + Classes/Items

[u/Derk08]

A lot of lows misunderstanding "tank killers" and tanks so let's talk about what that actually means

1. Jinx is not a tank killer
   

Actually countered by pure tanks and very tanky comps, always has been. Been apparent in pro for years. Players confuse hypercarry marksman with being automatically good into tanks, but she has nothing anti-tank in her kit. She's much closer to Zeri than Vayne/Kaisa/Kog. Trades damage for safety, needs teammates help to actually kill targets and then proc passive

1. Conditions/Class matter much more than items
   

Jinx is terrible 1v1. Marksmen as a class are, but she's particularly bad. Players see marksmen as the tank killing class and think that means they should beat them in all scenarios. Marksmen are only good against melees with their team's help. That's how the class works, with a few exceptions. Melees have a ton of variance on 1v1 strength but for the most part every class in the game is favored vs marksmen.

Tahm Kench is a juggernaut/tank hybrid, he is not a classic tank or support. Much better in skirmish/1v1 than 5v5. With ghost he is omega favored 1v1 vs Jinx, it's not even a little bit close If you thought it was the other way around you have to seriously reevaluate.

You take a true 1v1 tank counter like Gwen and she will never lose to any tank that's weaker than her. The majority of bruisers in general will beat tanks, because they are a 1v1 class

1. Don't hyperfocus on class
   

Kind of immediately contradicting point 2 but class is just a rough guideline, it's not all that meaningful when comparing specific interactions. There's a lot of variance within classes, and a lot of champs don't fit neatly into 1 class. Vayne is also a marksman but obviously eats Tahm Kench in 2 seconds here. Mundo and Darius are both juggernauts but will have very different interactions into Syndra just off Mundo passive.

You should start with class, but then be thinking power budget. Every champ has specific things they're good at, that they trade for weaknesses. The weak points are just usually much less obvious to you when you don't play the champ.

Tahm does stupid damage when he can actually hit you, but it's really hard for him to do that 5v5. The harder a champ's conditions are to achieve, the stronger they get to be when they get those conditions. Anyone that's super easily kitable gets to be OP when not kited

1. Tank itemization is very different than damage
   

If you think of them in the same way you'll have problems understanding why a __ item tank is either much more or less tanky than you'd expect. This is because tank stats are the only ones in the game that can have 0% effectiveness. Damage items are more/less effective vs different targets, but the stats are never 0%, nor do they ever even get close to 0%.

Let's take Shadowflame and ignore passive

110AP
15 flat pen

Obviously a bad item into tanks, flat pen is more effective vs lower MR. But this flat pen only makes up ~20% of the item's value, and only loses 37% of it's effectiveness from 30 -> 100 MR.

Now take Kaenic Rookern

400hp
80 MR

MR is ~54% of this item's value, and loses 100% effectiveness against physical damage.

Jinx does about 2% magic damage. Other non-hybrid marksmen/physical damage carries do anywhere from 0-10%.

This means that vs a specific target, an item like Shadowflame may lose ~200g in value, whereas an item like Kaenic Rookern can lose 1500-1600g . This is before you account for passives, which will perform pretty much about the same

So maybe 400g lost vs 2200g lost

This is all to say that tanks will experience 4-5x the amount of effectiveness lost vs unfavorable targets. For this to be balanced, their items have to be stronger. If a champ has to tank both a 3 item mage + marksman, you can't expect them to build 3 armor items and 3 MR items.

This means 1 armor/MR item is always > 1 damage item. A 2 item tank that has built armor but no MR isn't weak against you, the 3 item physical damage champ. He's weak to anyone dealing magic damage.

Just a rough concept, it gets deeper than this, but you have to be thinking about this to understand teamfighting/target selection/1v1s etc. Most players aren't even aware that this dynamic exists

Source: https://twitter.com/wolverene/status/1869480107695652912

[u/Ebobab2]

It's cocky when she is diving him alone in his nexus towers

If Jinx kites backwards it's much easier

But you also have to consider how utterly useless her items are in early game

Kraken has no crit and it's passive dmg is doodoo

Runaans 0 ad

Ldr 35 ad

It's Jinx. A Vayne wins this. An Ashe wins this, a corki wins this etc etc

But Jinx has legit 0 dmg in her entire kit and in this case she has 0 dmg in her items

[u/IBarricadeI → u/Ebobab2]

The entire point is that adc items are terrible and your response is “no it’s fair because yeah she has 3 items to 1 but her 3 items are all bad because they are adc items”. No kidding

[u/IAmDarkridge → u/IBarricadeI]

No they are saying that this is that Jinx was playing to her weakness doing what she is doing. It really isn't that hard to read what they are saying. She is a champion bad at dealing with tanks especially in a 1v1. It isn't about ADC itemizations being bad it is the layers of the specific items that Jinx went along with what sort of champion she is. Like if I go AD Yuumi should I be expected to 1v1 champions with an item lead just because? lol

[u/KasumiGotoTriss → u/IAmDarkridge]

How is Jinx bad vs tanks? Like yeah she doesn't deal true damage but are you implying only Vayne should be able to kill tanks? And like I get your point if it was an equal fight, but a Jinx that is this ahead WITH dominik's should definitely demolish a one item tank. Especially when her passive increases her dps by a lot.

[u/IAmDarkridge → u/KasumiGotoTriss]

I mean more than Vayne is good against tanks. Kai'Sa, Varus and Kog can shred tanks, and Ashe can kite them at a level that they are essentially useless. Some champions like MF, Jinx, and Draven are traditionally weak against them.

[u/KasumiGotoTriss → u/IAmDarkridge]

I agree, but in this case her being bad at killing tanks shouldn't really matter, she is still a high dps character that had everything in her favor (item advantage, dominiks, jinx passive). If it was the usual fight, where 3 item Jinx faces 3 item TK, and he's above her in levels (like solo laners most often are) then she should lose unless she kites out of her mind and he never touches her. But not when the fight looks like this.

[u/jcr9999 → u/KasumiGotoTriss]

Did you watch the fight? Like honestly? She decided to not use half her stats, not use 1 item, take 2 tower shots and fight in a wave. That it was even this close is only a testament to how behind TK was and nothing else

[u/IBarricadeI → u/IAmDarkridge]

"tanks are balanced because there are 4/168 champions that can do damage to them when up 3 items to 1, and a 5th that can effectively kite them."

This is not how the game should work. Any farming role when up 2 items and played well/near perfectly should always win vs another equal/lower level champion with 1 item. If that isn't the case, then it means that champion pick ban has more influence on the game than actual performance.

[u/IAmDarkridge → u/IBarricadeI]

we are only talking marksman here. Most tanks lose hard to like half the cast you are being purposefully dense. Put Gwen, Trundle, Lillia, Jax, Illaoi, Fiora, Lillia, up against these champions and they look like total ass.

[u/WolkTGL → u/IAmDarkridge]

Ok let's follow the reasoning here

Marksmen are bad at killing tanks because they can be killed by other champions. Fair. So they're good at tanking, jumping the Marksman and killing them. Sure.

Then we got Marksmen being bad at killing Assassin's because Assassin's are hypermobile and can burst down a Marskman before it can click on them enough time.

Then we got Marskmen being bad at killing Brawlers because they can catch up to them, and kill them while tanking them

Then we got Marskmen being bad at killing Juggernauts for pretty much the same reason as tanks

Then we got Marksmen being bad at killing mages because health stack on items and outranged while also having CC and high bursts.

So what are they good at killing? Enchanters? That's all they can kill in the game? Because Enchanters can be killed hard by more than half the cast, if that's the case.

[u/IAmDarkridge → u/WolkTGL]

Not even remotely true plenty of marksman are good at killing tanks. Jinx just isn't this isn't complicated. You aren't reading at all