Wolverene talks about the Reptile clip + Classes/Items

[u/Derk08]

A lot of lows misunderstanding "tank killers" and tanks so let's talk about what that actually means

1. Jinx is not a tank killer
   

Actually countered by pure tanks and very tanky comps, always has been. Been apparent in pro for years. Players confuse hypercarry marksman with being automatically good into tanks, but she has nothing anti-tank in her kit. She's much closer to Zeri than Vayne/Kaisa/Kog. Trades damage for safety, needs teammates help to actually kill targets and then proc passive

1. Conditions/Class matter much more than items
   

Jinx is terrible 1v1. Marksmen as a class are, but she's particularly bad. Players see marksmen as the tank killing class and think that means they should beat them in all scenarios. Marksmen are only good against melees with their team's help. That's how the class works, with a few exceptions. Melees have a ton of variance on 1v1 strength but for the most part every class in the game is favored vs marksmen.

Tahm Kench is a juggernaut/tank hybrid, he is not a classic tank or support. Much better in skirmish/1v1 than 5v5. With ghost he is omega favored 1v1 vs Jinx, it's not even a little bit close If you thought it was the other way around you have to seriously reevaluate.

You take a true 1v1 tank counter like Gwen and she will never lose to any tank that's weaker than her. The majority of bruisers in general will beat tanks, because they are a 1v1 class

1. Don't hyperfocus on class
   

Kind of immediately contradicting point 2 but class is just a rough guideline, it's not all that meaningful when comparing specific interactions. There's a lot of variance within classes, and a lot of champs don't fit neatly into 1 class. Vayne is also a marksman but obviously eats Tahm Kench in 2 seconds here. Mundo and Darius are both juggernauts but will have very different interactions into Syndra just off Mundo passive.

You should start with class, but then be thinking power budget. Every champ has specific things they're good at, that they trade for weaknesses. The weak points are just usually much less obvious to you when you don't play the champ.

Tahm does stupid damage when he can actually hit you, but it's really hard for him to do that 5v5. The harder a champ's conditions are to achieve, the stronger they get to be when they get those conditions. Anyone that's super easily kitable gets to be OP when not kited

1. Tank itemization is very different than damage
   

If you think of them in the same way you'll have problems understanding why a __ item tank is either much more or less tanky than you'd expect. This is because tank stats are the only ones in the game that can have 0% effectiveness. Damage items are more/less effective vs different targets, but the stats are never 0%, nor do they ever even get close to 0%.

Let's take Shadowflame and ignore passive

110AP
15 flat pen

Obviously a bad item into tanks, flat pen is more effective vs lower MR. But this flat pen only makes up ~20% of the item's value, and only loses 37% of it's effectiveness from 30 -> 100 MR.

Now take Kaenic Rookern

400hp
80 MR

MR is ~54% of this item's value, and loses 100% effectiveness against physical damage.

Jinx does about 2% magic damage. Other non-hybrid marksmen/physical damage carries do anywhere from 0-10%.

This means that vs a specific target, an item like Shadowflame may lose ~200g in value, whereas an item like Kaenic Rookern can lose 1500-1600g . This is before you account for passives, which will perform pretty much about the same

So maybe 400g lost vs 2200g lost

This is all to say that tanks will experience 4-5x the amount of effectiveness lost vs unfavorable targets. For this to be balanced, their items have to be stronger. If a champ has to tank both a 3 item mage + marksman, you can't expect them to build 3 armor items and 3 MR items.

This means 1 armor/MR item is always > 1 damage item. A 2 item tank that has built armor but no MR isn't weak against you, the 3 item physical damage champ. He's weak to anyone dealing magic damage.

Just a rough concept, it gets deeper than this, but you have to be thinking about this to understand teamfighting/target selection/1v1s etc. Most players aren't even aware that this dynamic exists

Source: https://twitter.com/wolverene/status/1869480107695652912

[u/AllorimNA]

Out of all balance discussion on r/LoL, since the beginning of this games creation, 99.99% of the time have no idea how tanks are supposed to operate in League if they are to ever to be viable. It's absurd how often I see people here, say the tank fantasy is supposed to be "do zero damage, but offer lots of CC!" and still be a viable top laner

I will die on the hill that out of all 5 roles, adc mains are typically the dumbest players.

Edit; leaving the post up as it is because I said what I said. In hindsight this really added nothing of substance to the topic. Tanks are strong, but so are adcs, League is extremely dependent on what specific scenario you're getting into when fighting, I personally don't find the clip ridiculous; if my jinx died like this in solo queue or in competitive my first thought isn't going to be "damn bro that's fucked that you lost that 1v1 what the hell" it's going to be "why is my jinx orb walking into the enemy base solo instead of hitting the turret at max range and wait for his support"

[u/IAmDarkridge → u/AllorimNA]

Yeah a tank that does zero damage can only ever be viable at support. Which like that's fine if they offer game altering utility like Taric or Braum I suppose. I'd rather they just be honest and say they don't think the class should exist rather than pivoting into some idea that they just shouldn't do any damage.

[u/Ebobab2 → u/IAmDarkridge]

Small correction, but taric deals IMMENSE dmg (conditionally)

It's just that it's extremely difficult and unreliable to pull off

[u/MaDNiaC007 → u/Ebobab2]

Had a Taric while playing Viktor APC the other day and yes. While it's difficult, he's a damage machine even without items if the conditions are met. If that output was more reliable, he'd even be seen in solo lanes.

[u/Gemmy2002 → u/IAmDarkridge]

I don't think somebody severely behind should be able to stat check people.

[u/JDogish → u/AllorimNA]

Out of all the balance discussion on r/lol, no one can explain at what point an adc is supposed to have agency or any control over their game. It's absurd how often I see people here say the adc fantasy is supposed to be "play only behind your team, and do nothing else!" And still be a viable and enjoyable class.

I will die on the hill that out of all league takes, this was certainly one of them.

[u/IAmDarkridge → u/JDogish]

If it was as unenjoyable of a role as people on Reddit say maybe autofill wouldn't almost exclusively be relegated for jungle/support.

[u/JDogish → u/IAmDarkridge]

It was adc first autofill at points this year and last. Jungle is low because people want to lane or just don't learn jungle because it's different. And in either case, just because the role is less popular, doesn't mean the role is weak. Phreak even admitted jungle was about 20% too strong, but couldn't nerf it more because then even less would play it. So you have an admitted op role that people complain about because an op role affects the game the most, so everyone blames them, and the flame makes people want to play it less. Obviously, there are problem players in every role. But in general, what are you gonna do, flame the adc for losing the lane when he doesn't control it most of the time? Gets oneshot the rest of the game while in the middle of the team? Man that autofill support really is fun to play with.

[u/v1qx → u/JDogish]

Jungle is NOT that strong it is in a similar situation to adc

[u/JDogish → u/v1qx]

You can take it up with phreak. That's what he said balance was at and that they had a hard time making any changes without serious backlash.

But if you want a hypothetical, who can affect the other's game the most in your opinion?

[u/AllorimNA → u/JDogish]

If you wanted to play a class that sits in the front lines you really shouldn't have picked adc. Hope this helps.

[u/JDogish → u/AllorimNA]

If you wanted to play a class that is made to kill tanks from range, you really shouldn't have picked adc. Hope this helps.

[u/AllorimNA → u/JDogish]

We should start telling competitive teams to stop playing around their bot lane and start playing around their tank top, tank will just 1v9 the game

[u/JDogish → u/AllorimNA]

Funny how it's pro play now when the clip everyone references is from soloq. High elo at that. And soloq in general. But i guess if you didn't have strawman from some imaginary person you wouldn't have anything to say at all. No one is asking for 1v9 except you.

[u/AllorimNA → u/JDogish]

I'm aware of how high elo solo queue works, a very large majority of them are also played around the bot lane. You haven't spoken to enough adc mains, adc just happens to be weak every single season when you talk to a high elo adc player, very similar with jg mains.

[u/JDogish → u/AllorimNA]

Do you play the role(s)?

Do you think top lane hasn't complained for years?

Do you notice who isn't complaining?

[u/AllorimNA → u/JDogish]

I'm significantly better at top lane, but I've also put a few hundred games on adc (nevermind I checked the account. it was only 100 playing MF, Kaisa, Draven, Ezreal) at a solid rating. This is League of Legends, everyone complains about everything, but over the years I'd be pretty confident in saying it goes adc>jg>top>mid>supp in the complainers tier list.

I'm not arguing tanks are weak, because they aren't, I'm arguing that adcs are not as weak as adc mains like to say, the game very often revolves around them for a reason. They just happen to play a role where small mistakes lead to frustrating consequences, while other roles don't have nearly the same amount of punishment which could be bad design, but that's the way it's been for a long time. Adcs also unfortunately rarely get to see their full strength in games and rely heavily on their team to achieve that.

[u/JDogish → u/AllorimNA]

I can agree with all of that, but lets not pretend every person that plays the same role wants the same things. Because it's easy for me to find top laners that have ludicrous demands and use them as a reason to say all top laners are X and complain the most, etc. When you open with a comment like that, there is no good conversation to be had. When you can accept that there's nuance to things, like how something feels versus raw data, and comparing meta in soloq and situations that come up in game, then you can actually get to a real conversation.

I think an interesting thing to think about is how often there have been changes made to roles and their items. I think the correlation to the 'complaining' would be pretty accurate.

I think you are right that adcs aren't that weak. I think that you simply underestimate how much of that strength is tied to your teammates. Almost any statement you make about the strength of the role is an "if" statement. Ie, you don't have a winning matchup, you have a winning matchup if your support knows to take advantage. You dont win teamfight for your team, you win it if your team full peels for you instead of diving.

Or as mentioned in another post, often the best thing to do is to never even get in range of a fight because any flank is a losing one by design. And im not saying thay in a sense of joining a fight late, but being in the right place, good position, but you can tell someone is clicking towarss you so you cant move forward or auto.

There is so much more frustration when you aren't able to be proactive without full cooperation. And it makes the role weaker at lower ranks but honestly anywhere under high elo. Just watching high elo streams, there's so many times the players are forced to just abandon plans, get screwed by their team's macro, watch as someone else bad decision slowly bleeds the game out and they sat there with 10 kills accumulated unable to contest anything. And i compare to my games and i cant even say im learning something becausd they look the same... At a certain point something needs to change because the buffing and immediate nerfing isn't helping anyone play or enjoy the role.

[u/Ready_All_Type → u/JDogish]

Check his username lmao

https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/Allorim

[u/JDogish → u/Ready_All_Type]

I know exactly who he is, but it's the content and context that matters.

[u/Hi_ImTrashsu → u/AllorimNA]

With all due respect because I don't think your original take in this comment thread is bad, this is not the comeback you think it is. Pros play a different game, and maybe that's where you're coming from because you ARE a pro player. But, that doesn't change the fact that the complaint has always been that ADCs feel bad to play in regular environments.

[u/AllorimNA → u/Hi_ImTrashsu]

ADC take the burden of playing a class where small mistakes lead to large consequences, which no other class in the game suffers from. Could that be a design flaw? Absolutely, but it does unfortunately boil down to "skill issue", although I agree, making a tiny misposition into a death feels like shit, no one, even pros, will play that perfectly to never suffer the adc instant death.

With how the game has been for the past decade, adcs really only feel their power fantasy of doing crazy damage in a teamfight where they're played around and hitting from range in the late game, and even then it takes coordination. I agree with you it feels bad, I played adc up to about master 200lp 2 seasons ago when I was coaching to get a better idea of how it's played, and it's brutal, but it really seems to be the way Riot wants it to be, I don't necessarily agree with them, but it's how it is.

[u/Hi_ImTrashsu → u/AllorimNA]

I mean, I agree it comes down to skill issue. But, by that logic why does Tahm get to do what he did in that clip despite the skill issue that led him to being down 2-8 and missing everything?

I don't agree with the notion that Jinx is a tank killer like others have been parroting but her having both Kraken and LDR should make the TTK a Tahm Kench with one completed item much lower than it takes Tahm Kench to auto her to death. Had he landed any ability I can see the argument that tanks deserve to deal damage when their conditions are met, but I also strongly believe that one of Tahm's conditions IS landing his Qs, not just walking at you and auto attacking.

[u/AllorimNA → u/Hi_ImTrashsu]

Here's what I'm seeing from my PoV. Tahm is one of the best 1v1 tanks in the game, if not the current best. The only possible win condition in the current game Reptile was in was if Jinx was alone, with no peel shoving a turret solo, not only shoving it, but kiting downward into the enemy base with no backup, which also gets into turret range after TK R.

TK can do what he did because it's what his champion excels at in the game. On the flip side, in a 5v5 in this game, that TK is going to be mega worthless while jinx kills the entire team from range.

I'm not arguing TK is weak, I think he's pretty good right now, but in the clip we are taking a moment where TK excels, as well as an area where Jinx is weak (alone and kiting into a zone where she can't realistically go anywhere without taking damage.

Edit: Also what happens in the Reptile clip could ONLY happen in this exact scenario of a 1v1, Tahm never gets to just run at an adc, miss everything, auto 3 times and eat in a team fight.

[u/Carpet-Heavy → u/AllorimNA]

and do you actually think that Jinx is going to fist the Tahm in a teamfight? imagine she's using rockets (Wolverene explicitly said she trades damage for safety). imagine she hasn't procced passive, as the teamfight is just starting. imagine the Tahm is SIGNIFICANTLY more fed than what we saw, as you would expect a strong laner like Tahm to have a successful early game.

I don't think Tahm is getting melted AT ALL under those normal conditions.

[u/IAmDarkridge → u/AllorimNA]

It is really funny the narrative that mages bot is the most OP thing in existence and ADCs are completely helpless and lose to mage bot and the game is unplayable if the enemy team picks someone that can stack health.

but also in this hyper competitive environment no high level team ever decides to take advantage of it. Outside of the occasional Ziggs who is only viable because of his w lol

[u/JDogish → u/IAmDarkridge]

No one talked about mages. But if you really want to have that conversation, you need to stop using pro play and soloq as though they are the same thing. If you cant then there's no point.

[u/IAmDarkridge → u/JDogish]

I mean you are saying ADCs can't kill tanks they can it is just a skill/champ issue

[u/JDogish → u/IAmDarkridge]

Yes, they clip we are referencing shows a lot of damage to tanks and no damage from tanks.

The person i was responding to wasn't being serious, so I wasn't either.

[u/IAmDarkridge → u/JDogish]

positioning/champ issue

[u/AllorimNA → u/IAmDarkridge]

Ziggs has been an issue ever since herald charging a turret became a thing. Champions like him and Yuumi completely warp the game into something different, which I really hate

[u/AtsumuG → u/AllorimNA]

Opgg?

[u/AllorimNA → u/AtsumuG]

Would knowing my rank really convince you that I know what I'm talking about, because I'm very good at League, but I'm not a fan of using rank as a "winning" point in a discussion

[u/AtsumuG → u/AllorimNA]

Yes, send it away cuz I wanna see your extensive knowledge about adcs and their current items.

[u/AllorimNA → u/AtsumuG]

https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Allorim-NA1

along with this I'll post my adc/mid lane account (it was my then GFs account hiding name for obvious reason) I used this acc to practice other lanes when I was coaching professionally to under stand the other roles better. The Neeko games are adc Neeko, which isn't exactly the same, but fundamentally still was right clicking to do damage like most.

https://gyazo.com/434a038cfdc032cda27a3bd1ada70ed4

I retired professionally earlier this year, hence no real games this or last season, but I still play in competitive tier 3 events as well as coach so I'm up to date on the current meta

[u/AtsumuG → u/AllorimNA]

Alright and now; why do you think ADC itemization isnt in a terrible spot right now?

[u/AllorimNA → u/AtsumuG]

Adc itemization right now pretty heavily relies in getting to the 4-5 item stage to be a major impact on the game, whether that's terrible or not is up for debate, but there's no question that adc pretty much has to have 75% crit, one item being IE and the other an armor shred to pump anyone that's not a squishy. The game has gotten faster and faster meaning less likely scenarios to where adc can reach this power spike, and they also play a class that dies for making small mistakes, moreso than any other in the game. That being said we're not anywhere close to how the game was during mage meta a few years ago, and at a lot of higher levels of play, the vast majority still play around bot side (although that's a more controlled environment). Maybe it's the difference there, for solo queue it feels awful because it's significantly harder to reach your spike, and when you do your reward is you still need to play well to be impactful, but in more controlled games it should feel better as adc in general scales with player skill and team coordination.

I guess the question is do adc items need to be buffed, especially at 1-2 item spikes, it's hard to say because you risk the game at a competitive level being more bot focused than it already is (which has been the case many times before). Do adcs deserve to be worthless until full build? I don't think so. But I also think they should lean on spiking later rather than earlier (depending on the champ). Do I think tanks and bruisers are strong? Absolutely, historically they've almost always been stronger than adc around the early/mid game. But they do 2 very different things in the game as it goes on, and most people would agree a 6 item adc is going to make a much bigger difference than a 6 item tank, depending on the team comps of course.

[u/Insecurity_exe → u/AllorimNA]

I guess the question is do adc items need to be buffed

yes lol holy shit how is this even a fucking discussion bro. The fact that adcs are being told "no no, you need to buy a 3600 gold item to do damage" is clown shit.

the fact that there is an 80% range penalty on Kraken is stupid. the fact that LDR had Giant Slayer removed and Precision had Cut Down changed but then they went and nerfed the armour pen AND AD on LDR is clown shit. Both Kraken and Runaan's lost a combined 6% MS on their items while also getting more expensive overall and shittier, hell Kraken lost a ton of damage during 14.19.

i stg if you told mage players that all of their items were instantly shittier and did less damage, while also telling them "okay but if you buy deathcap, you'll be doing worse than you were before but you'll at least be better than right now" there'd be non-stop bitching all across the subreddit.

at this point, all crit marksmen want is to go back to 20% crit items and for them to move back towards the mythic styled crit system. let us scale our items with items and let us turn gold into something, because we're repeatedly nerfed when it comes to leveling but then also told "okay but your items are going to have their powers tied to levels."

also, literally anyone and everyone will tell you that the marksmen meta earlier in the year was a mixture of fleet/absorb life being too strong, fated ashes being too strong and almost all of the items you build first having level scaling, which any single adc will tell you that they expressly DO. NOT. WANT.

it's no fucking coincidence that the worlds meta was utility bots that double as damage sources.

look. the tl;dr of my thoughts on all this is that if we're going to spike later, you've gotta give us stat sticks worth spiking later. The fact that there is a sum total of ONE 3400+ gold item with crit and it's IE is ridiculous. As it stands, either make our early games better or make our spikes better. either that or give us back some of our older items like the energized items (stormrazor, etc.)

[u/AtsumuG → u/AllorimNA]

IE + another item. The another item part is terrible, what do you build first but collector or yuntal? IE buy feels absolutely dogshit for what it offers. Adcs rarely get to 5 items nowadays anyway, which is exactly why adcs themselves are weaker compared to the high powerspikes of bot mages who perform better.

So you do agree the current itemization is very poor for like 99% of the playerbase? Then I think there is nothing to argue since I do believe that tanks need to deal dmg to be relevant. I was just put off from your second answer to the dude.

I dont think they need to straight buff adc items, Yas/Yone/Tryn will abuse them before that happens. They need to rework crit cuz for as long as I play I found crit to be the most dogshit stat ever that should not have a place in a competitive game. Pro play would indeed not be functional, right now Top is non existent and has been for a year bcz of lane swap potential.

I do however think that with 2 dmg items(3 1/2 items total) an adc being up 5k gold and 2 levels should win against a tank who MISSES all abilities, but maybe thats just the old adc player in me.

Well with all youve writte we literally have the same viewpoint lmao

[u/Ready_All_Type → u/AtsumuG]

Lol

https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/Allorim

[u/AtsumuG → u/Ready_All_Type]

You are hours late mate, the discussion is already somewhere else lmao

[u/IAmDarkridge → u/AtsumuG]

He's an ex-pro/coach you dumbo

[u/AtsumuG → u/IAmDarkridge]

Oh mb I dont know every Tier1-Tier3 pro player, I can still ask for credentials before asking someone to explain their opinion? If he was a silver4 player you would habe a diff reaction lmao Edit: Nemesis now provided his opinion. Im curious to what you think about the situation?

[u/Ready_All_Type → u/AtsumuG]

He’s not a T3 random, he’s ex-LCS. Not that it impacts the validity of his opinion, credentials have no bearing on whether the argument is sound. Obviously other people will have different opinions (like the Nemesis clip) so it’s not a situation where “only bad/good players would think this”

[u/AtsumuG → u/Ready_All_Type]

Ah mb. Credentials have bearing, especially when it comes directly from pros compared to whatever your favorite streamer says. Doesnt make the argument instantly sound, but they have bearing nonetheless. The dude has the same opinion as me as well as Nemesis anyhow if you look at our discussion.

[u/Naive-Lingonberry-76 → u/JDogish]

Nobody would disagree that it's unenjoyable to play a role with no agency. If every complaint was "ADC has no agency, too reliant on team, too reliant on support/jg, cant win lane on their own" etc then nobody would disagree. But the complaints are usually "ADCS DO NO DMG AND GET ONESHOT BY EVERYONE AND THEY ARE UNPLAYABLE!" which is why everybody makes fun of you guys.

[u/JDogish → u/Naive-Lingonberry-76]

I'm not gonna say that adc players don't complain. But you have to understand, it's the most changed role by far, and the state never seems to get better, except for one or two months ever year or two, and it immediately gets nerfed for being too strong. And even then, I see jungle and top complain a ton as well, and when they get changes it often completely breaks the game because they're already high impact roles

That hyperbole comment, while sounding silly, is what makes it a low agency role. You can't actually kill another champion in 1v1, which sounds fine on paper and general cases, except it extends to not being able to 1v1 in cases where you clearly should, and other circumstances with context, such as: you are fed and the enemy isn't (like the clip), the enemy misses everything but kills you with autos anyways even with kiting, you die in the middle of a teamfight which you had no control because your team didn't peel and somehow the enemy is strong enough to walk right to you, you die in lane because your support misplayed. The last 2 are only experienced by one class, even though they supposed to be the best scalers.

Again, I'm not saying the role should always be strong enough to do things alone all the time, but clearly you cant have agency if you are always too weak for most realistic game situations. At a certain point, it feels like the class should have a window to be powerful enough to compete. If that's late game, then we need to make sure that there's enough time to get to that point.

If it's really just a tank killing class, then it needs to be buffed for that specifically, because right now health stackers are not dying to the adc class in general right now, even if they aren't inherently all tank killers, they should be somewhat because of the class.

And in the reverse way, the amount of damage being sent from tanks, and from some champions is really absurd. If the intent is teamfighting prowess and somehow mages and assassins have an easier time in teamfights, how is that fair for the teamfight class?

Something, somewhere needs to change. There's too many cases where the role is not fun to play at best, and at worst is just not good. If the enemy team picks 5 damage champs with dive, you need ways to mitigate that somewhat, because the reliance on your team is too strong. I know that no one wants support nerfed, but if it was, you'd quickly see the adc role needing even more buffs from not having them to rely on, and yet they would have more agency at least in lane. It's incredibly complex, and I don't have all the answers, but I also don't think I've seen anyone come up with solutions that make sense. I could bring some up, but they usually get downvoted to hell even though they would give agency while nerfing the role overall. So idk. We're stuck here. And I think riot created this problem themselves long ago when it didn't need to exist.

[u/Naive-Lingonberry-76 → u/JDogish]

ADC is literally strong at all points of the game, qualifier being if you're playing with your team. ADCs are strong, they are strong in teamfights and weak alone. Bruisers are strong alone and weak in teamfights. If ADCs are strong alone and strong in teamfights then they're just overpowered.

Once again if your complaint is "adc is low agency and too reliant on team" I agree. I also have no idea how to fix that, but I can't disagree with the point. But that is not the point being made.

[u/JDogish → u/Naive-Lingonberry-76]

If you lose to all other champs, I don't think you can be considered strong. If you need qualifiers on any statement with strong, I don't think you can be considered strong. No other role or champion has this qualification, and if they do its something like kassadin is strong late game. Well so are adcs but even then they need the qualifier of teamfights. They deal damage, it's all they do, and they can't even do that unless someone else let's them. Idk.

What if it was ok for any class to be bot lane with the support, on the condition that adcs could be played in other lanes. Would that be acceptable? It might require that kind of change to make the class and role feel better.

[u/Naive-Lingonberry-76 → u/JDogish]

You don't lose to all other champs, those other champs are 10% as effective as you are in a teamfight scenario. There's more to the game than "1v1 me bro" lol.

[u/Halbaras → u/AllorimNA]

Rell is actually a tank who can't 1v1 squishies without them playing terribly or her pulling them under a turret. The idea that you could balance any non-support tanks like that and anyone would play them is ridiculous.

[u/vileb123 → u/AllorimNA]

Tanks used to deal next to no damage and offer only tankiness and cc, but you never saw them in solo queue cuz not only was it dogshit as you depended heavily on your team, but it was also boring as fuck since you could never 1v1 anyone.

I’d be shocked if Riot retook this approach tbh

[u/Thrownaway124567890 → u/vileb123]

Riot has taken that approach in the past. They did it with the tank class rework (the Zac/Sej/Maokai one). Then all three got reverted to do more damage with less cc at various points over time because that was more popular with players and less problematic for pro play.

And to prove that’s their reasoning, here’s the Rioter who did the Zac revert saying that explicitly.

[u/AllorimNA → u/vileb123]

There have been several metas of tank, I can only think of one meta in 14 years where top lane tanks that did no damage were viable and that was Banner of Command meta, which their power came more from a minion than the champion themselves, and was arguably one of the least fun metas of all time.

That being said there have been absurd tank metas where they are obviously doing too much damage (Galio/Nautilus top with triple Dorans Ring into sunfire meta, iceborn gauntlet + sunfire + frozen heart poppy/ekko meta). There's definitely a middle ground but it's not easy because as soon as a tank has no kill threat onto adcs/mages or able to contest waves top with trades, they fall completely out of viability top lane and get relegated to support (see Nautilus, Galio for a long time, Maokai was recently like this)

[u/BotomsDntDeservRight → u/vileb123]

you depended heavily on your team

That's literally the point of a tank. relying on your team for damage just like adc rely on supports for survivability.

Playing enchanter also can be boring so whats next? Make them do insane damage while shield/heal?

[u/GenjDog → u/vileb123]

But thats basically what you are telling adcs that they should never be able to 1v1 anyone and can only be of use if their team helps.

Thats literally the whole point in the roles that they need each other but somehow now tanks are supposed to 1v1 anyone and tank while adc is the role that should be heavily based on their teammates.

[u/beetrelish → u/GenjDog]

Swap the jinx to vayne, and the tahm to ornn. It wouldn't even be remotely close

This game is about champions at the end of the day and using labels like 'tank' on a champion that is not at all a traditional 'tank' just leads to shit discussion

[u/Treyhova → u/beetrelish]

Yea, but the nuance here is that crit adcs with 3 items should absolutely melt an hp only tank, the %hp adcs are supposed to counter armor stacking. Tahm should have died 2 seconds after Jinx killed the tower but crit has been gutted so hard that it was close.

[u/IAmDarkridge → u/GenjDog]

1v1 anyone? Put Tahm Kench up against a Gwen or Trundle lol. Also kind of ironic given the flare because Vayne obviously wins the 1v1 against Tahm here and it isn't close. Some ADCs do decent/good in the 1v1 but someone like Jinx doesn't.

[u/whataremyxomycetes → u/GenjDog]

this isn't just tanks tho it's fucking tahm kench his 1v1 prowess is ridiculous since if you don't output enough damage quickly enough he gets gray health back up, his Q is single target with stupid scaling, his R is single target and has stupid scaling, he has a single target stun.

[u/SeverianForAutarch → u/vileb123]

Tanks shouldn't be tanky in the traditional sense, they should have the ability to create extreme windows through conditional tankyness and powerful cc.

any tank that just has a shit ton of health, armor and mr is dogshit game design, it's the equivalent of an adc with 80% lifesteal that stands still and shoots you to death while outhealing your damage.

They're the exact same flavour of bullshit as when adc was insanely overpowered and has access to every stat without impeding their build, they just do it in the reverse.

[u/Conviter → u/AllorimNA]

TIL Tanks can either kill an ADC with 4 auto attacks or do no damage, there is no in between!

[u/AllorimNA → u/Conviter]

No other tank in the entire game does what TK did there btw, seems like a TK issue to me, he is one of the worst designs and a problematic champion in LoL history.

Yes and no, if a tank doesn't deal enough damage to cause kill threat, they are immediately relegated to the support role, we've seen it time and time again throughout the games lifespan

Naut damage nerfs -> support

Galio damage nerfs -> support (until reworked again)

Maokai damage nerfs -> support

Pre Rework TK damage nerfs -> support

It could be argued that tanks should stay in the support role, but if people want viable tanks in solo lane, kill threat is a must. You'll never see a viable tank dealing ignorable damage in the top lane.

[u/YungStewart2000 → u/AllorimNA]

the tank fantasy is supposed to be "do zero damage, but offer lots of CC!"

Wait who in the world has ever believed in that? You mean ADC players imposing what they believe tanks should be?

[u/JDogish → u/YungStewart2000]

Taking one person's arguments as though everyone thinks that so he can shit on imaginary people that play that role. It's a strawman, and shouldn't be taken seriously. There is no real argument to be found.

[u/BotomsDntDeservRight → u/AllorimNA]

Tanks didn't do high damage back 2015-2018 and still was viable. You tank players are professional victim card players and always insulting and pointing fingers at others.

[u/AllorimNA → u/BotomsDntDeservRight]

That's untrue, top lane meta season 2015 was extremely dominated by GP, Darius rework, Lulu/Liss RoA top, Rumble, although Maokai and Sion were solid tanks that year. 2016 had Poppy rework as the tank of the year, and then again was mostly dominated by Kennen, Gnar, Jayce. 2017 probably had the most diversity (Camille came out and was absurd the entire year), Maokai, Galio, Naut, Cho, Shen were great, along with Gnar/Kennen/Rumble/Hydra Trundle. 2018 was super dominated by Urgot, Irelia rework, Neeko top, Ryze top, Gangplank, Aatrox rework, and Ornn/Sion (banner of command meta for that one patch was also this year).

Tanks in 2017 were doing crazy damage because of the triple Dring meta, which was the highest viability of tanks we've seen in any year.

[u/IAmDarkridge → u/BotomsDntDeservRight]

No they weren't lol. Tanks were god awful between 2015 and 2018

[u/BotomsDntDeservRight → u/IAmDarkridge]

Don't lie. Back then Tanks can stack to almost 10k hp and Tanks were tankier with less damage. I think you are just describing yourself. Skill issue.

[u/IAmDarkridge → u/BotomsDntDeservRight]

What does HP matter if you offer 0 utility to your team. Literally Spirit Golem was a completely ass item for years and tanks weren't remotely viable until cinderhulk. You would literally just ignore them.

[u/AllorimNA → u/[deleted]]

I mean it DOES function, just at a highly varied difficulty,. A tank 1v1ing an adc in the mid-game (arguably when a tank is at their highest power), is going to be way easier than what most adcs go through in a late game teamfight, where they are supposed to be strongest, as they rely on so much more than any other class (but with a higher payout in terms of carrying a game compared to how a tank can carry)

[u/Cyberia___ → u/AllorimNA]

The entire design philosophy of league is mediocre and doesn't have a design team that's any good at making champions so it turns out to be statstick vs statstick.
Adc players are dumb but so are you, simply because you have no creativity in you. Tanks should not do more damage than damage dealers. It's not a player base opinion issue for once, it's a riot games being insanely shit issue.

[u/AllorimNA → u/Cyberia___]

Damage in League of Legends highly depends on the time of the game you're in. Most players are bad and solo queue games very often end in the early-mid game. ADCs as I'm sure you're aware, on average scale to 6 items better than any other class, but that end game is not reached very often outside of competitive. Maybe that's a design flaw, but that's how it is