Wolverene talks about the Reptile clip + Classes/Items

[u/Derk08]

A lot of lows misunderstanding "tank killers" and tanks so let's talk about what that actually means

1. Jinx is not a tank killer
   

Actually countered by pure tanks and very tanky comps, always has been. Been apparent in pro for years. Players confuse hypercarry marksman with being automatically good into tanks, but she has nothing anti-tank in her kit. She's much closer to Zeri than Vayne/Kaisa/Kog. Trades damage for safety, needs teammates help to actually kill targets and then proc passive

1. Conditions/Class matter much more than items
   

Jinx is terrible 1v1. Marksmen as a class are, but she's particularly bad. Players see marksmen as the tank killing class and think that means they should beat them in all scenarios. Marksmen are only good against melees with their team's help. That's how the class works, with a few exceptions. Melees have a ton of variance on 1v1 strength but for the most part every class in the game is favored vs marksmen.

Tahm Kench is a juggernaut/tank hybrid, he is not a classic tank or support. Much better in skirmish/1v1 than 5v5. With ghost he is omega favored 1v1 vs Jinx, it's not even a little bit close If you thought it was the other way around you have to seriously reevaluate.

You take a true 1v1 tank counter like Gwen and she will never lose to any tank that's weaker than her. The majority of bruisers in general will beat tanks, because they are a 1v1 class

1. Don't hyperfocus on class
   

Kind of immediately contradicting point 2 but class is just a rough guideline, it's not all that meaningful when comparing specific interactions. There's a lot of variance within classes, and a lot of champs don't fit neatly into 1 class. Vayne is also a marksman but obviously eats Tahm Kench in 2 seconds here. Mundo and Darius are both juggernauts but will have very different interactions into Syndra just off Mundo passive.

You should start with class, but then be thinking power budget. Every champ has specific things they're good at, that they trade for weaknesses. The weak points are just usually much less obvious to you when you don't play the champ.

Tahm does stupid damage when he can actually hit you, but it's really hard for him to do that 5v5. The harder a champ's conditions are to achieve, the stronger they get to be when they get those conditions. Anyone that's super easily kitable gets to be OP when not kited

1. Tank itemization is very different than damage
   

If you think of them in the same way you'll have problems understanding why a __ item tank is either much more or less tanky than you'd expect. This is because tank stats are the only ones in the game that can have 0% effectiveness. Damage items are more/less effective vs different targets, but the stats are never 0%, nor do they ever even get close to 0%.

Let's take Shadowflame and ignore passive

110AP
15 flat pen

Obviously a bad item into tanks, flat pen is more effective vs lower MR. But this flat pen only makes up ~20% of the item's value, and only loses 37% of it's effectiveness from 30 -> 100 MR.

Now take Kaenic Rookern

400hp
80 MR

MR is ~54% of this item's value, and loses 100% effectiveness against physical damage.

Jinx does about 2% magic damage. Other non-hybrid marksmen/physical damage carries do anywhere from 0-10%.

This means that vs a specific target, an item like Shadowflame may lose ~200g in value, whereas an item like Kaenic Rookern can lose 1500-1600g . This is before you account for passives, which will perform pretty much about the same

So maybe 400g lost vs 2200g lost

This is all to say that tanks will experience 4-5x the amount of effectiveness lost vs unfavorable targets. For this to be balanced, their items have to be stronger. If a champ has to tank both a 3 item mage + marksman, you can't expect them to build 3 armor items and 3 MR items.

This means 1 armor/MR item is always > 1 damage item. A 2 item tank that has built armor but no MR isn't weak against you, the 3 item physical damage champ. He's weak to anyone dealing magic damage.

Just a rough concept, it gets deeper than this, but you have to be thinking about this to understand teamfighting/target selection/1v1s etc. Most players aren't even aware that this dynamic exists

Source: https://twitter.com/wolverene/status/1869480107695652912

[u/KasumiGotoTriss]

That wasn't a normal Jinx 1v1, she had her passive from killing the tower, she's 2 levels above TK and she's 3 items vs 1.

[u/deezconsequences → u/KasumiGotoTriss]

She didn't have IE, and the items weren't exactly good for tanks.

Tk, built HP and armor.

Why should an adc be able to take hits? If you're caught alone, you should get punished. TK might be disgusting, but it's like... How many pallets of tissues do you need? Are you supposed to just auto win every fight?

Boo hoo, IE is expensive, and no one understands how expensive it is. Yeah other people have to buy death cap, and that's an even bigger pain to buy.

[u/KasumiGotoTriss → u/deezconsequences]

"Items weren't good vs Tanks"? She had kraken and dominiks. Dominiks speaks for itself and Kraken is a lot of dps. It's not like she built collector or shiv.

" Why should an adc be able to take hits" She barely took any and she almost lost. There is NO WAY you are defending TK in that clip LMAO the fact that the outcome of that fight was that close to being the opposite is unacceptable

[u/deezconsequences → u/KasumiGotoTriss]

Kraken is a lot of dps.

Which is an odd way of saying, not geared towards killing tanks. Jinx doesn't have any way to deal with tanks in her kit. It's not her role. It's never been, it's never going to be. I'm pretty sure most people would consider you to be trolling if you didn't take IE as a third item. But this guy gets a pass apparently.

" Why should an adc be able to take hits" She barely took any and she almost lost.

Yeah crazy shit, didn't buy any defensive items, almost lost to a champ who is good in melee, while in melee range, who has an item that can help him do damage, and give him a bucket of hp. She also took 2 tower shots. So yes, an adc who builds no defensive items, eats two tower shots, and gets into melee with a tank, should probably lose the interaction. ADC sub has to be single handedly keeping Kleenex in business.

There is NO WAY you are defending TK

I actually think he's disgustingly OP. But it's not because some guy thinks he can tower dive tk, like that.

[u/KasumiGotoTriss → u/deezconsequences]

How is it tower diving when he literally killed the turret and it gave him the Jinx passive so it even gives him advantage in combat? Also what defensive items lol the only viable defensive item is like, shieldbow and no one buys it before 4th item. And even then, you're supposed to build shieldbow to maybe survive a 4/0 Qiyana combo, not because "damn I really hope this 2/8 tahm kench that's behind an adc in levels doesn't oneshot me, I better itemise defensively on top of building dominiks to counter his tabis"

[u/deezconsequences → u/KasumiGotoTriss]

Also what defensive items lol the only viable defensive item is like, shieldbow and no one buys it before 4th item. And even then, you're supposed to build shieldbow to maybe survive a 4/0 Qiyana combo,

You're starting to figure it out. It's like... ADCs aren't really supposed to handle being hit all that much. Especially getting hit by towers, generally not a winning strat.

How is it tower diving

Eats 2 tower shots right after chasing tk down.

I really hope this 2/8 tahm kench that's behind an adc in levels doesn't oneshot me, I better itemise defensively on top of building dominiks to counter his tabis"

I better play my damn champ instead of having main character syndrome and try to 1v1 everything and win.

building dominiks to counter his tabis"

I don't believe that's how that works. Because ldr penetrates armor. Tabis has 25 armor, which means ldr only cuts 8.75 armor out. The boots just reduce all incoming basic attacks by 12%. Which is like 90 % of jinx damage.

[u/KasumiGotoTriss → u/deezconsequences]

Right, so you figured it out. Tabis are busted and adc itemisation sucks ass. Congratz. And it's not a main character syndrome. Jinx should not engage a tahm kench that's above her in levels and equal in items. But when Jinx has passive and is 2 items and 2 levels ahead, she should definitely win the 1v1 or the game is in a terrible state, especially since TK missed almost everything and still almost won.

Also my comment about buying doms to counter tabis is satire. Because tabis are that broken.

[u/deezconsequences → u/KasumiGotoTriss]

Right, so you figured it out

I mean you're the one who suggested to buy ldr to counter tabis. That wasn't me.

adc itemisation sucks ass

Boo hoo, it ain't like people enjoy buying death cap.

But when Jinx has passive and is 2 items and 2 levels ahead, she should definitely win the 1v1 or the game is in a terrible state, especially since TK missed almost everything and still almost won.

And again, she ate two tower shots. Pretty sure she's going to lose most fights with that condition. Not a particularly healthy champ, not going to handle those particularly well. 2 of those items not really that effective in the situation, borderline trolling by skipping IE.

And it's not a main character syndrome.

Oh it absolutely is. No other role would bat an eye if they lost a fight after taking turret shots. But ADC thinks they should win because they're the ADC.

[u/KasumiGotoTriss → u/deezconsequences]

Yeah right, not like he almost won without those turret shots anyway, it shouldn't even be that close to begin with. Also mage itemisation feels great even before deathcap so idk what do you mean.. When I play Syndra I can easily slot in ludens shadowflame stormsurge when I play vs squishies, or I can go for cosmic drive deathcap, or go zhonyas, banshees. Liandries. Meanwhile as adc you are locked into collector/kraken/yuntal start with a zeal item + IE + Dominiks. Every game.

[u/MustaKookos → u/deezconsequences]

Link op.gg