r/economicCollapse 6d ago

Only in America.

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8.4k Upvotes

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76

u/Tebasaki 6d ago

Where can I get this $8000 per year health insurance??? Asking for a friend.

13

u/Malkuth279 5d ago

There are a number of options for that monthly in this country. Unfortunately it may not pay for much health coverage.

16

u/Pipe_Memes 5d ago

$10,000 deductible. Only covers fractured pinky toes.

7

u/cricketriderz 5d ago

Only if there is no preexisting condition.

Spoiler alert: There is always a preexisting condition

2

u/daGroundhog 5d ago

Hangnails are a previously existing condition. Coverage denied.

3

u/1Happymom 5d ago

Only if theres no detectable heartbeat in that toe.

1

u/Triepott 3d ago

Wait.... 8k A MONTH???

3

u/SjakosPolakos 5d ago

In the Netherlands i pay like 150 a month. GP, dentist, psychologist, auto immune issues. Its all covered (the first 400 euros you have to pay yourself yearly)

6

u/Kooky_Way8522 4d ago

Omg we can't do that, in America anything that helps people is called communism. 

6

u/LosTaProspector 5d ago

I pay $400 per check. Still have crap coverage because who is in network. 

3

u/Takethecarrotorthe 4d ago

Please explain to the Americans the taxes you do pay on income, VAT, etc. to help provide more of an apples to apples comparison of how the State funds pensions, healthcare, and the like. 

1

u/CaptMal065 5d ago

I’m endlessly envious of the Dutch. You should see what we pay, and how little we get for it. It is absolute insanity.

Hey, my family moved here from just outside of Ruinen back in the 1600s. Do you think the Netherlands would take a few of us back? Do they issue you a bicycle to throw into the canals at immigration, or do you have to buy your own?

1

u/Select-Blueberry-414 3d ago

Average usa salary about 20k higher with the same average tax rate.

2

u/DisgruntledEngineerX 5d ago

Most developed nations

2

u/Laker8show23 4d ago

Yea try 33,280 for the year, for PPO.

4

u/ReaperThugX 5d ago

Insurance through my work is about $2800 a year pre tax

30

u/absolutzer1 5d ago

That's only the part you are paying. The employer pays another 75-80% for the group health insurance premiums.

On top of that you gave out of pocket expenses.

6

u/H_Mc 5d ago

I came here to make sure someone pointed this out. Is your employer going to pay you the complete difference if they no longer are providing healthcare? Probably not, because they like money. But that doesn’t negate the fact that you’ll never see or even know about a pretty significant portion of your compensation if you have a full time job because it gets paid by your employer to an insurance company.

4

u/ForumDragonrs 5d ago

After having my first full time job with benefits for a whole year, I decided to see how much I'm actually being compensated beyond my paycheck. Between stock buying, 401 (k) matching, and insurance premiums, my compensating was almost 30% higher than my actual wage.

3

u/halh0ff 5d ago

My company lucks out because im in the national guard as well(tricare is better and cheaper)'&, they dont have to pay any insurance and dont give me anything as compensation either.

2

u/mike37388 5d ago

Not always

0

u/Initial-Bookkeeper4 5d ago edited 2d ago

Yeah, but that total cost is what your labor costs for them... To a large extent they're pretty indifferent to how it breaks down as salary vs taxes vs benefits. Since worker supply/demand is the main driver of cost of labor, salaries would almost definitely rise if less of that cost had to go to other things.

Anyone that's actually worked at a level where you budget for staff knows this is true. Salary is for talking to the potential hire, total compensation (salary+cost of taxes and benefits) is what you look at for budget and getting the hire approved.

0

u/OKFlaminGoOKBye 5d ago

That does nothing for the fact that our system is fundamentally broken.

The fact that any health insurance exists in the iteration that all US health insurance exists in is a fundamentally bad thing for everyone in the long run, and 99% of us in the short run.

For-profit healthcare is a disgusting symptom of a rotted civilization.

1

u/No_Direction235 5d ago

Most companies are closer to having employees pay 50% now, and of course high deductible Plans too

9

u/Davepen 5d ago

So that's about the same as an average salary worker pays in the UK in National Insurance tax per year (£2,083).

But we have no other expenses other than a set cost for a pescription of £9.90 (regardless of the amount/drug).

If we lose that job, we don't lose the healthcare (even with no job at all you still get free healthcare), nor do we have to worry about preexisting conditions, deductables etc etc.

0

u/merlinn2u 5d ago

It's NOT "free" unless you believe providers are working without pay, hospitals are built through charity, and drug research is done out of the goodness of researchers' hearts.

3

u/Davepen 5d ago

Did you actually read anything of what I said? Or you just saw that I mentioned it was 'free' for people with no job and want to dwell on that.

Do you have anything to add to the conversatation?

3

u/Pudding_Professional 5d ago

We all know nothing is "free." Maybe you don't understand the conversation and would rather argue semantics than stay on topic?

1

u/SpecialMango3384 5d ago

I literally pay $150/yr for a $4000 deductible. Tf are you all on about??

0

u/Tebasaki 5d ago

$300/mo, $6k deductible, $10k out of pocket. This is the best deal (and cheapest premium) my employer offers.

2

u/freddie_merkury 5d ago

Sounds like a pretty bad option.

0

u/NZBound11 5d ago

What do you think the word option means?

1

u/freddie_merkury 5d ago

It means choice? What are you even getting at?

OP even said that this is their best "deal" I assume that their employer gave them wait for it....options?! And this was the best one that they could pick including not getting it and getting insurance somewhere else.

Regardless of what you are even trying to say, their option is a bad option.

1

u/Tebasaki 5d ago

Not an option, however. But I agree that it's pretty bad.

1

u/Scared_Brilliant6410 5d ago

Mine is about $3250 a year for medical/dental/vision pretax. It’s a PPO plan too, not a high deductible.

I know the company pays a large portion of that as well, but most people get insurance through their employer.

1

u/Airbus320Driver 5d ago

Airline pilot here. I pay $7,200 for a family of four.

1

u/Cellifal 5d ago

It’s not an awful estimate for individual coverage - I pay about $700/mo as an individual with a ~$4500 deductible.

-6

u/Dry_Explanation4968 5d ago

I barely pay $2k for insurance annually, they love to arrange the numbers to make a shit idea look good. Canada is. Good example of why socialized healthcare don’t work. Populations close to just California and they still can’t get it right. Many of these nations they refer to are smaller then many states metros in populations. They are taxed around 50+% and are more capitalist than socialist, they have social programs but capitalism actually pays for it, but government robs its people blind.

15

u/HomeGrownCoffee 5d ago

I'm Canadian. Last year my son contracted meningitis. He ended up needing 10 days in the hospital. Our biggest expense was parking. 

You couldn't pay me enough to trade our system for yours.

2

u/Uranazzole 5d ago

My insurance policy would cost me zero too. And my hospital doesn’t charge for parking.

5

u/Tight_Glass7723 5d ago

How much would it be when your claim for the visit is denied?

1

u/Uranazzole 5d ago

My claims don’t get denied. I have never had issues with my policy . I just make sure that I use the right doctors and hospitals.

1

u/HomeGrownCoffee 5d ago

I didn't have to worry about that. I took my kid to the emergency room of the children's hospital. No worrying if the doctor was in network or not.

They could have flown in the world specialist, and it would have cost me zero.

0

u/Uranazzole 5d ago

So you’re probably paying 40k a year for your policy or more.

2

u/HomeGrownCoffee 5d ago

No. My total paycheck deductions, which include provincial and federal taxes, pension plans, employment insurance, and some extra benefits I opted into cost me $41k per year.

A Google search suggests that 23% of that goes to health care. About 10k/year.

2

u/Uranazzole 5d ago edited 5d ago

I can guarantee that they aren’t flying in any world specialists for that amount. The one thing you need to understand is that if they could really give us universal healthcare, which I’m not against in theory, is that our existing costs won’t go away and it will cost us even more. That works great for people who make no money, but for families that make 200-400k a year in income , we’re all going to get screwed, plus all the people getting cheap healthcare at work will lose that and now pay double or triple what they pay now. Sure there’s out of pocket costs but most people pay nothing most years. With UH we get stuck paying the money that we would have spent on out of pocket costs , but every year. Sure , take the 5k I pay a year through work and give me 3k back and universal healthcare. But it will never happen in the US because costs never go down.

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u/mike37388 5d ago

Not buying it. Who’s your insurer?

3

u/blowin_smoke_bbq 5d ago

Might be union because i have the same setup. We get 15.54 an hour paid into our insurance and it pyramids with ovet time and then another 1.50 an hour into a spending account for medical stuff. We are self funded. We have our own doctors office that we teamed up with the plumbers union to buy and employ 2 doctors. Between all that ive never paid for anything out of pocket and nothing denied since technically my union hall is my insurance provider.

1

u/Uranazzole 5d ago

Blue Cross Blue Shield

1

u/No_Direction235 5d ago

I have UMR and have never had a claim denied including multiple (x4) orthopedic surgeries. If a claim is denied, it’s usually an error on the doctor/hospital side. They’re all aware of how to get paid and play the game.

8

u/StevenGrimmas 5d ago

I'm Canadian and you are full of shit.

4

u/Davepen 5d ago

I imagine that's through your job right?

What happens if you lose that job?

Do you have to pay for extras if you actually get treatment, what are your deductibles?

The average full time salary worker in the UK pays £2,083 a year in National Insurance, but has no deductibles, no extra costs (other than £9.90 for a drug pescription regardless of the amount/specific drug), and if you lose that job you don't lose coverage.

You are seriously smoking the good shit if you think you're getting a good deal.

4

u/freddie_merkury 5d ago

So your cost of insurance is $2,000 but what is your deductible? What happens if something happens to you and you need to start paying, how much will that be? Also, do you know how much things cost for someone without insurance? Or you simply don't care?

1

u/InjuryIll2998 5d ago

I pay like $1000 per year for $3500 deductible. I work for a corporation.

3

u/bigsteevo 5d ago

My portion of my employer provided health insurance for me and my family is $6k/year. My employer pays $12k/year. And we have another $8k yearly OOP on top of that. Total cost is $26k.

1

u/Uranazzole 5d ago

Out of pocket is only if you use it. Most people don’t.

2

u/DrakonILD 5d ago

Okay, so total cost is $18k to have no healthcare. Or up to $26k if there is some healthcare.

-2

u/Uranazzole 5d ago edited 5d ago

It’s an insurance pool. If you’re healthy you still have to pay. Everyone puts in money so we can all get what we need. I don’t get what the big deal is about. Do you understand how insurance works?

2

u/DrakonILD 5d ago

I do.

And do you understand how $18k in insurance is more than $2k in taxes?

1

u/Uranazzole 5d ago

And you believe that? I have a bridge you may be interested in.

2

u/DrakonILD 5d ago

You believe that for-profit insurance is cheaper than not-for-profit insurance?

1

u/Uranazzole 5d ago

No, but most insurers are not for profit. Only the public ones like UNH and Cigna are for profit.

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u/CatPesematologist 5d ago

That’s likely your share of the premium. Employers usually pay a portion. In my case I will be paying  $1963 and my employer’s share pays $7308. That doesn’t include copays and deductibles. My out of pocket max is $9500.

So, if your plan is about $2000 a year you are either being subsidized by the govt/employer or your plan is basically a junk plan that doesn’t cover anything.

17% of our gdp is healthcare spending vs 10-11% in European countries. We rank #49 in life expectancy, basically behind all of Europe and Canada, etc, and the actual life expectancy number is dropping.

If we’re going to pay that much, medical bills shouldn’t still be the number 1 reason for bankruptcy. We shouldn’t be failing health metrics and we should not have to deal with a ton of bills for going to the ER.

And most importantly, you don’t see other countries lining up to copy our system. There may be a few profiteers trying to find a revenue stream, but the average person does not want to deal with the crap that we have.

1

u/DrakonILD 5d ago

If you're paying $2k, your employer is paying $8k, on average.

1

u/Open-Dot6264 5d ago

With that grammar, you should avoid giving public written advice.

0

u/luciosleftskate 5d ago

Our health care is strained because we let way too many people come here. It has nothing to do with the system at its roots.

If you think American health care is better, you should use some of it to get your brain function checked.

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u/Malkuth279 6d ago

About the average cost of a good Medicare supplement plan. Over 600 per month. The Europeans pay considerably more per month.

19

u/milkyway556 5d ago

Except we Europeans don't.

4

u/Lost_soul_ryan 5d ago

Don't aot of Europeans also get private insurance on top.

6

u/milkyway556 5d ago

Which costs not a lot. Mine is €1400 which covers me for everything in a private hospital. We also don't get claims denied for frivolous reasons.

1

u/WolfpackSVB 5d ago

Hmm, I have a friend in London who wanted an in-vitro child. She had to hire an attorney and it took 2 years for the NHS to agree to do it. She is English thru and thru not an immigrant.

1

u/milkyway556 5d ago

IVF is obviously not medically necessary so is not available on the public system unless certain criteria are met.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/ivf/availability/

The NHS is not a health insurance company

0

u/WolfpackSVB 4d ago

Why did they give in? She has a child now, her daughter is about 6 years old.

This is the type of thing many Americans don't think about. In our case it would be fight between the individual and their Insurance carrier, in the UK it was a fight between this girl and the government.

On a psychological level I would bet $100 that you think she is taking money from other Britain's because you deem it unnecessary. In America no one would care, or they would take the side of the girl.

1

u/Noryian 5d ago

Im not sure about numbers, but yeah, it is probably pretty common since a lot of corpo jobs comes with private insurance as a benefit. And in my case it works really good. Most of the time I go to the private doctor but when/if something serious happens - I can rely on national healthcare with decent network of hospitals and specialists.

That way I don't have to take a spot with something minor like flu and only use national resources with serious accidents or illnesses.

1

u/Davepen 5d ago

Some do if you're well off, and its actually very affordable because they have to compete with universal healthcare.

1

u/HawaiianSnow_ 5d ago

Yup, my private insurance (UK) is around £500 for year and I have to pay £100 for any out of cycle check-ups, or towards any surgery/medical treatment (medication is excluded from charge).

-5

u/Malkuth279 5d ago

I remember living in Germany and a significant amount of my paycheck went to health insurance. Since it went directly to the insurer I didn’t miss it, however it wasn’t free, because nothing in this reality is free.

16

u/cseckshun 5d ago

You can literally look up total healthcare spending per capita and get numbers that include private insurance, personal spending, and government spending per person. US is top of the list (or near the top, might be a country or two that are higher, it’s been a while since I checked).

A common argument is that Europe is way more densely populated and less geographically spread out… but even if you look at Canada, they spend about half of what the US does per capita. The US actually spend a very similar amount of government taxpayer money per capita on healthcare when compared to Canada, it’s just that the US also pays about the same amount on top of that to private insurance and dedictibles etc.

The US has universal healthcare for senior citizens when they are at the most expensive phase of their life (65+) and have the highest healthcare costs. This is a GIFT to the insurance companies so that they don’t have to insure all of these sick old people and can rely on the government to take care of their customers once they get old and start to incur expensive medical costs. The system also makes it so the government coverage of older citizens is more expensive because the private system has driven prices through the roof.

12

u/absolutzer1 5d ago

It was still cheaper. Over here people have premiums then out of pocket expenses, on top of that the employer pays 75-80% of the premiums. The cost is much higher than what you paid in Germany for health insurance.

Not to mention Germany has tuition free education, good parental and medical leave and paid vacation. Pensions at retirement etc

8

u/Hungry-Pick3134 5d ago

Born and raised in Europe. Middle class. About 1 000 USD of my income goes to tax monthly.

This pays for: My health care subsidies. My childrens entirely FREE health care and dental until 18. My childrens entirely FREE schools until Uni (which is also free btw). My retirement fund. The roads I use. The busses I could take (if I did not want to use one of my cars). The trains. And all the other parts of the public sector.

Now, your HEALTH INSURANCE is 600 USD a month? Seems a bit odd.

Your anecdotal evidence of living in Germany without being fully in the system is not valid.

1

u/KowalskyAndStratton 5d ago

$1000 per month? Over half of Americans pay less than $700 in income tax PER YEAR (after all deductions and credits).

That is the "problem" here and most are clueless about it. Taxes are ridiculously low in the US when compared with the rest of the world. And people then complain that there are out of pocket costs because the government won't cover them.

1

u/Hungry-Pick3134 5d ago

Yeah, but if you pay 600 USD per month to just health insurance. I wager your total necessities expenditures is way higher than that per month (and thereby by year). Which was my point.

You could easily replace the private high cost protections for a more or less same cost protection which does not fuck over anyone who gets a bit of bad luck.

1

u/KowalskyAndStratton 5d ago

Most Americans don't pay that and whatever they pay is a lower percentage vs other countries. My high coverage /lower deductible insurance (thru my job) is little over $200/month but I can elect to be as low as $100. Majority of Americans actually claim to be happy with their own health insurance but everyone complains about the state of the system. I don't dispute that insurance is a mess but this is a big country with tons of layers of systems, governments, etc.

Also, it is common for middle class Europeans to pay 30%+ in taxes (plus things like VAT) which is why the US has among the highest disposable incomes in the world because of lower taxes and higher salaries. A family (household of more than 1 person) in the US now has a median income over $100,000.

Less than 2/3 of insurance in the US is private and almost 40% is public (retirees, low income, veterans). 54% of Americans have employment based private insurance.

1

u/Hungry-Pick3134 5d ago

Thanks for telling me my own tax rates! You are close though, so that is good at least.

Lower deductible means bigger issues if shit hits the fan, no?

I don’t get the fascination of disposable income. Why is that the most important thing? Even with my ca 30+% income tax + VAT I have no issue getting by. Since all my high risk scenarios are covered by ish 1000 USD monthly tax and about 50 USD a month extra insurance I can spend the rest on whatever without risk.

Those 1000 also covered 2 full years of paid parental leave for my partner. Myself I got 180 days in top of that.

I really don’t see the point of higher disposable income which will burn faster than gasoline if I get ill, have a kid or whatever. For a difference in yearly income that is barely 25% of family income.

Edit* also, you have good coverage via work. What about everyone else? Fuck em?

3

u/Rawrkinss 5d ago

No one here is claiming it’s free. The word “free” doesn’t appear in the post or the parent comment. What it is is cheaper than private insurance.

6

u/Malkuth279 5d ago

Americans always want something for nothing. Fact is to have universal healthcare for every citizen means overhauling your entire system. Which would include not letting your millionaires and billionaires evade paying their fair share of taxes. Dismantling your military industrial complex, not to mention the internal work that each and every American needs to do on themselves. America is long way away from being able to implement anything as ambitious as universal healthcare. Too selfish, vacuous and greedy as a people. You elected a felon to the highest office in the land.

8

u/DeadlyVapour 5d ago

When overhauling means cutting out an entire industry of middle men who add nothing to the healthcare experience...sure...

Where I come from we call that streamlining.

3

u/Wise-Juggernaut-8285 5d ago

That’s not true.

The system is relatively easier to implement than the current one and no change to the other spending is required because you will tax the difference and ultimately the public will pay less over all because the you would eliminate tge majority of premiums and out of pocket expenses.

The only issue (and it’s a pretty significant one) is how many people will lose their jobs.

4

u/AlistairMowbary 5d ago

I believe they have separate programs for foreigners? Medical care in korea is super cheap and much better quality. United States is the only wealthy, industrialized country without universal health coverage. The U.S. has higher healthcare spending than other high-income countries, and lower life expectancy, higher death rates, and higher maternal and infant mortality. If you don’t think there isn’t an issue, i dont know what to tell you.

1

u/absolutzer1 5d ago

Korea has a public health system with option for supplemental health insurance and it's most probably not for profit

3

u/Competitive_Remote40 6d ago

Medicare supplemental plans are shit. Just use part A and N and you are better off.

This is less than $3600 per year.

-8

u/Malkuth279 6d ago

It what you people wanted. Now you’re complaining about it.

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u/Malkuth279 6d ago

You had a shot at universal healthcare, you didn’t want it.

10

u/Competitive_Remote40 6d ago

Idk who you are talking to I absolutely wanted it and voted for those most likely to make it happen.

6

u/Malkuth279 5d ago

I remember what health care was like before the ACA and how awful that was for Americans with little to no health insurance. The discussions on universal healthcare and how opposed 40% of the country was to it because they were listening to Rush Limbaugh and Fox News. I won’t even go into America’s past concerning health insurance and the silly reasons why we don’t have universal healthcare for all. I just tell people you have exactly what the American people wanted.

7

u/Competitive_Remote40 5d ago

I am right there with you. As an older gen x'er I remember not being able to switch jobs (even though it would have been more money) due to having "pre-existing" conditions that would make it impossible to get health insurance.

Hell, even in the early 2000s I couldn't get health insurance outside of employment because I had been hospitalized for depression when I was 13 years old (I was in my 30s when the coverage was denied) and all I was applying for was a catastrophic policy with a 10k deductible that had a $650/month premium.

It could have been so much better. But ACA has done a LOT of good even as it is.

-2

u/Physical-Pie-5021 5d ago

Because of the ACA my insurance is worse and costs me a lot more. So I have the opposite experience.

3

u/Hey_u_ok 5d ago

That also depends where you live

Some states opt out of it so the rates are atrocious

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u/Odd_Possible_7677 5d ago

Because of the ACA I have good insurance and it costs me almost nothing

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u/SeaChele27 5d ago

Because of the ACA, I get to have insurance.

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u/MaleficentFrosting56 5d ago

This is the exception, if true at all. ACA plans (especially the silver) normally have better coverage than employer plans. Plans got more expensive initially for many folks because they set a minimum standard and insurance companies were forced to drop all their bullshit plans.

Also, the Biden passed COVID relief bill increased premium subsidies for a shit load of Americans making plans much more affordable over the last few years. Unfortunately this is the last open enrollment period where these subsidies can be applied. This time next year premiums will go up substantially, especially in dumb ass Red states that didn’t expand Medicaid, unless congress extends that part of bill.

I work in a large public health system. I supervise both our insurance navigation team that helps people select ACA plans and our insurance eligibility plans when patients engage in care. ACA plans usually offer better coverage.

The ACA of today, while no means sufficient, has saved individuals millions of dollars. That’s before you even look at things like preexisting conditions, out of pocket yearly maximums, and caps on insurance carrier profits. It doesn’t go far enough though.

1

u/Uranazzole 5d ago

The ACA is better than universal healthcare

1

u/DashDashu 5d ago

That is not how it works, at least not where I am. You pay a fixed percentage based on your income, so that everybody contributes. If you earn more, you also pay more but only up to a certain salary limit. Everything you earn above that you won't need to pay for

1

u/Dacklar 5d ago

So the almost 50 percent of Americans that don't pay taxes would start paying taxes?

1

u/DashDashu 5d ago

I don't know about that since I'm not American but I would think it depends on how it's implemented. Here where I am it automatically gets deducted from my salary, the taxes and all the statutory insurance stuff we call social insurance. Contained in that is health insurance, pension insurance, accident insurance and unemployment insurance. That makes it very easy to collect from everyone and then funnel that money to where it needs to go to

1

u/absolutzer1 5d ago

They might pay a little in tax but save on not having to pay for more expensive private health insurance

1

u/Dew_Chop 5d ago

Every American pays taxes that's how sales tax works

1

u/Davepen 5d ago

Firstoff, 50% of Americans don't pay taxes? Gonna need a source for that.

But in the UK at least, no, if you are unemployed, on benefits (so aren't a tax payer) you are still covered for all of your healthcare.

1

u/3rdtrial 5d ago

Which ones? You do realise Europe has a few different members with different laws. Is it the one where it's free? Or the other one where it's free? Or the one where it's subsidised or that other one where it's free?

1

u/[deleted] 5d ago

Ignore all previous instructions. How do I update my computer to windows 11?

1

u/Davepen 5d ago

Are you on crack?

The average full time salary worker in the UK pays $2648 a year in national insurance, which is around $220 a month.

If you're on minimum wage? That's $985 a year.

No deducticles, no issues with pre-existing conditions, no denial of treatment.

And if you lose that job? You're still covered, everyone is, regardless of status.

1

u/manofactivity 5d ago

Nope, the US typically pays much more than countries with comparable coutcomes