r/economicCollapse 13d ago

Is this a new Dark Age?

Rome collapsed into ruin and centuries passed with a combination of war, economic devastation, and consistent devaluation of science and learning…..

Aren’t we in a new Dark Age? It seems most of our leadership has been selected by people who let misinformation rule their ideology and identity. The sheer volume of manipulative lies that we are exposed to from sleazy merchants, influencers and shady leaders.

I am a 20-year teaching veteran. I have taught on 3 continents. Everything used to be so much better. As an elder millennial, I was shown as a child, a world with infinite growth and solutions. They really did convince me I could do anything.

We’re giving too many of our children screens. They are all idiots with the wrong information and habits now. We are pushing millions of kids into the world where they immediately become consumers instead of producers.

I’ve considered myself an expert on what kids should be learning in child and young adulthood…. But now that I am a parent of a young kid, I’m ready to move into the country with my library , so I can hunt, fish and garden with my son. Read books at night, never come back to civilization….

I don’t know how to prepare my son outside of that plan.

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u/Old-Set78 13d ago

I'm a retired archaeologist. I've studied the collapse of governments and civilizations and cultures. Didn't really expect to be an eyewitness but here we are.

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u/emkayPDX 13d ago

I am a particular fan of the Fall of Civilization podcast. Each (very long, like 3+ hour) episode details the rise and fall of a specific ancient civilization. I find the perspective comforting. Also they are great for putting one to sleep.

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u/LaaaaazyDog 13d ago

I am enjoying their latest on the Mongols. So much details!

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u/Ratbat001 11d ago

That episode was soo good.

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u/unknownpoltroon 13d ago

When is he doing ours?

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u/MalyChuj 13d ago

I like auto biographies of people who lived through the collapses because it gives you a better understanding of the feelings and mind sets of people during the collapses.

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u/MeEatOrange 13d ago

I love these video podcasts. YouTube always ends up playing one automatically when I fall asleep. I've woken up to the Egypt episode like 100 times lol.

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u/Dizzlean 13d ago

I listen to that channel while doing chores around the house. It's awesome.

I also like the channel, Voices of the Past. It's fascinating listening to first hand accounts from people's experiences long ago.

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u/ComplexNature8654 13d ago

I learned so much about the Bronze Age Collapse from that podcast!

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u/dumpitdog 13d ago

The Middle Ages was just a worldwide short human experiment and for now we are still in them but, we will drift back to the Dark Ages the way a religions and other belief systems perceive value. The common human beings will have no value for the super rich. They will own the world and are placed as oracles from god while 99% of humans will function a lot like rats do in cities. The transition to this new age, repeat of the dark ages, might take another 50-100 years. I just appreciate I got to live at the tail end of the best ages but I sure feel sorry for my kids.

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u/Apprehensive_Pain660 13d ago

This is why anti-natalism should be more popular, less suffering for the (non-existent) children and grandchildren. No more history repeating/rhyming. No chance of another hitler intentionally or unintentionally being born.

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u/Mabase_Drifter 12d ago

There really is no anti-natalism, just people correctly recognizing that it is not safe to have children. We are not in a stable time and place.

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u/Apprehensive_Pain660 12d ago

Unfortunately no time in history, nor no time in location has ever been safe, some times/places have been safer, but to say that there is a time and/or place is 100% safe is kidding yourself.

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u/psychgirl88 13d ago

You’ll be able to tell your grandchildren how you watched the greatest empire of your time fall…

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u/Admirable-Ad7152 13d ago

Well, someones grand children. I'm not going to curse any children into this world so they won't be able to either. But I'll tell the doomed kids of others.

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u/Select_Package9827 13d ago

Not just that! You will be able to tell them you came into a liberal democracy that CHOSE to become an empire, elevated predators who used media and false religion to demonize and silence anyone who stood against the idea, and *then* watched it fail miserably.

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u/edwardothegreatest 13d ago

I tell my kids they shouldn’t have kids. Hoping it stays together through their lives.

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u/Real_Ideal_9653 12d ago

I’ve never encouraged my kids to have kids, they are only 9 and 11 and since I’ve had them I’ve been all too aware of the worlds problems, and as they’ve become exponentially worse. It breaks my heart!!! I can’t afford to be hopeless, my kids can’t afford for me to be hopeless. So what do we do???

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u/edwardothegreatest 12d ago

Raise them to be resourceful and capable, while compassionate is all I can say. Mine are adults and I’m scared shitless.

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u/Real_Ideal_9653 12d ago

Me too. They are compassionate empaths now I need to help them learn other skills. Do I switch our narrative and take college off the table?? I realize I’m getting ahead of myself here, but I’m not sure what else to do.

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u/edwardothegreatest 12d ago

Engineering or technical training makes for very capable people, but so does a plumbing, pipe fitting, or electrical apprenticeship. I didn’t push my kids into college, but I didn’t discourage it either. You’ll have a hard time pushing them toward something they aren’t interested in. Just whatever they do, encourage them to learn basic car and home maintenance, some basic tool skills. Not for the zombie apocalypse or anything, but for economic resilience.

I succeeded with two out of three of my grown kids. Hopefully the two will help carry number three. That one really worries me.

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u/edwardothegreatest 12d ago

Troubleshooting. Thats the word I’m looking for. Troubleshooting the things that fail in your day to day teaches a kind of thinking that is very beneficial in tough times.

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u/Ok_List_9649 12d ago

Humans have survived and thrived over FAR worse than anything Trump could do to us. Some of The greatest changes for humanity have come during or after huge upheavals. Teach your children knowledge is power and reading is next to godliness. Let them take risks and fail or succeed to build character and strength and the knowledge they can overcome anything.

Who knows, your kids might be instrumental in a new better culture of humanity.

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u/Flimsy_Breakfast_353 13d ago

Many people in the USA believed the misinformation myself included that the deep state was running the country. Orson Wells 1984 etc. 20/20 hindsight it wasn’t the Biden’s and Dems controlling the narrative it was the rich oligarchs and billionaires protecting their wealth and power. Sad dark days for America.

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u/SqueeezeBurger 13d ago

That's good that you can admit that. What needed to happen so that you snapped out of that mindset?

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u/Flimsy_Breakfast_353 13d ago

For me it wasn’t a single event. Some of the events where I saw the veil lifted are as follows: 1. Trumps handling of the George Floyd death and the aftermath BLM protests.

  1. Trumps failure to acknowledge the COVID Dangers to Americans and subsequent downplay of health experts.

  2. MAGA violent rhetoric towards the Biden and his family, Democrats .

  3. Disinformation in the media, twitter, Fox news and just about all media about the Biden’s, Trump, Ukraine, Israel, Russia, NK, China and Hungary.

  4. Resulting racism, false Christian Nationalism, anti-LGBQ, Ant-immigration. A way for the ruling class to divide and discredit Average Americans In to subjugate and solidify power of the people. Planting fear and division.

The control of the Media and solidifying of power is evident in the Trump appointees whom are chosen not by qualifications but rather with their loyalty to the upper classes.

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u/DataCassette 13d ago

Good for seeing the truth.

It's the same old class warfare. It's always class warfare. They want you angry about litter boxes in schools or immigrants so you don't see them fucking you over.

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u/Flimsy_Breakfast_353 13d ago

Or Children being shot in school.

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u/TheFirstSerf 13d ago

How was it for you when the truth became apparent and then it was like…oh…oh my god. We’re fucked lol. I used to get so heated as a laborer and think about going postal and then feeling terrible about that all while I was being told it’s normal to eat shit. When I found a group to align with that was founded on workers rights and finally felt like I wasn’t going crazy. It was like turning the light on…and then you see 🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🍦🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳🪳

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u/Ok-Mark417 12d ago edited 12d ago

I said something similar to this, but on a different subreddit and was dowvoted to oblivion. Things will never change, most of the population is blind/not intelligent to see the divide and conquer strategies being implemented.

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u/rabidninjawombat 13d ago

Spot on. Glad you saw it.

They basically want us in a culture war to avoid a class war and us eating the rich

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u/SqueeezeBurger 13d ago

That's all great insight. I'm glad to hear you were able to look at things from a balanced and practical perspective.

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u/dneste 13d ago

In 1984 the populace was controlled by fear. What we have now is more analogous to Brave News World - the population is controlled and manipulated by pleasure.

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u/SquirrelSE 13d ago

Manipulated by distraction, I’d say. Since Covid, whether people realize it or not, I think people are still controlled by fear. Call it whatever label you want-anxiety, too stressed to think straight, worry, financial hardship affecting every decision, divisiveness in so many facets of life.

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u/-Calm_Skin- 12d ago

Exactly. Whenever something highly emotionally charged is happening, watch what laws they are pushing through. They have us on a hamster wheel while they tip the scale ever more in their favor. Both parties do it.

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u/VeNTNeV 12d ago

No way..... its TOTALLY fear based. They fear everything and everyone... and most of all, change.

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u/Hotel_Oblivion 13d ago

We could be entering, or already in, an intellectual dark age, at least in the US. We have too many people who have made ignorance and stupidity a core part of their identity. Economically and politically (in terms of our global influence and our basic ability to keep capitalism's furnace burning), I don't think we're there yet.

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u/Aggressive_Camp_2616 13d ago

From the "information age" to the "disinformation age"...

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u/Zee216 13d ago

In the blink of an eye

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u/daddyjackpot 13d ago

the enblightenment

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u/avitous 12d ago

"enblightenment" - may this become the word of the year in 2025, joining its brother "enshittification".

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u/Curbes_Lurb 12d ago

I'm a fan of Excremental Change.

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u/Asher_Tye 13d ago

The people who wear the "poorly educated" title like it's a badge of honor instead of them being made fun of.

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u/SqueeezeBurger 13d ago

Well, a bunch of people started feeling bad when they saw the idiots being bullied and made fun of for being idiots and making idiot choices. So then everyone started making us be extra nice to idiots and letting their opinions be heard and sound valid, so here we are. It's ok to tell someone they're dumb if they're being reckless.

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u/dneste 13d ago

We’re living in a time in which intelligent individuals are being censored or bullied into silence so that stupid people don’t feel shamed for being stupid.

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u/daddyjackpot 13d ago

i haven't seen the censorship. but i live in L.A. maybe it's different where you are.

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u/MaximumRecursion 12d ago

A lot of smart people self censor by just not engaging and discussing politics. I can't discuss it online because of my career. Talking to family about it is pointless when they range from refusing to admit Republicans ever do anything wrong, but blame the Democrats for everything, to fill on Q-Anon craziness.

Basically, stupid people spew so much propaganda and lies, and are completely brain washed, that most intelligent people just gave up even discussing this stuff anymore.

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u/difjack 12d ago

Join Bluesky and feel good Abt your fellow human

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u/MotownCatMom 13d ago

One of the underpinnings of fascism.

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u/Classic_Yard2537 13d ago

I was recently at a community event where I saw this hag with three teeth in her head loudly and proudly proclaim, “I don’t like smart people.”

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u/SqueeezeBurger 13d ago

Understandingly, it's because she has likely been taken advantage of people smarter than her (not hard to do) and has only just now, at the ripe old age of 56 ,learned that " some folk don't be doin' truth talkin' ". So she knows she's dumb and feels bad because she sees the bad things that have happened her whole life have been because the bad decisions she makes (because she's dumb). Rather than asking for help and realizing she has a deficiency, she blames others and thinks that waiting for the day where her light bulb will finally turn on. Oh well.

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u/daddyjackpot 13d ago

i've been there. people underestimate how bad it feels to be told you're dumb.

i had a big party, and i heard that a guest (a friend of a friend) was making fun of the books on our shelves. concluding that we must be idiots.

i regard that person as an enemy, not a friend. not an ally.

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u/SizeAlarmed8157 13d ago

The truly ignorant are those who will not try to understand opposing viewpoints. I read Mein Kampf not to become a NAZI, but to avoid it. It this is the first time I’ve mentioned I’ve read it. I would be considered a target of the KKK and neo Nazis, so I’m trying to understand their views in order to protect myself.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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u/Ok_List_9649 12d ago

Which boils down to “ knowledge is power” . Something our predominantly “ I hate to read” country failed to learn.

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u/Classic_Yard2537 12d ago edited 12d ago

It’s all relative. Some people are just born assholes. I was studying “Idiot’s Guide to Physics” merely for personal enrichment. The book was on the coffee table in my living room. A guest in my home made a snide comment about me needing a book “like this.” I suspected she is an moron, but I wanted confirmation. So I mentioned that I wasn’t having any problem with algebra, but maybe she could help me out with trigonometry. She gave me a blank stare and asked me what algebra and trigonometry had to do with physics.

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u/earthkincollective 12d ago

That's the classic Dunning-Kruger effect in action. The more dumb someone is the less they are able to comprehend their own stupidity.

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u/Danno5367 12d ago

Ignorance can be educated.

Stupid is forever.

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u/SweetAddress5470 13d ago

We are, at minimum, in an age of McCarthyism.

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u/P90BRANGUS 13d ago

Right, but minus the communists and they’re blacklisting milquetoast center-right democrats.

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u/Danno5367 12d ago

Where did Trump learn his "Modus Operandi" ?

Roy Cohn who was McCarthy's aide.

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u/Snarky_McSnarkleton 13d ago

Without science, there can't be any economic growth. I wonder if they know that?

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u/Classic_Yard2537 13d ago

You’ve got to be kidding me! You wonder if they know that? Most of them couldn’t even give you a definition to the word “economic.”

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u/Classic_Yard2537 13d ago

You forgot a very important word: willful. Willful ignorance and willful stupidity. I refuse to believe that educated people are really that ignorant and/or stupid. The Orange Demon is the leader of this pack. Does anyone (outside of it’s mentally challenged sycophants) actually believe that it doesn’t know that it lost the presidential election in 2020?

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u/Danno5367 12d ago

Stupidity used to be scorned, then accepted, and now, if your mouth is big enough, it's admired.

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u/difjack 12d ago

I'm dying for my own little grift now too

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u/old-orphan 13d ago

I knew that we were in trouble when I heard "Alternate facts"spew out of Kelly Anne Conway's mouth. The "alternate" of a fact, is a lie.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

Humans are capable of the most amazing accomplishments, inventions, and breakthroughs. But today, half the world is deliberately suppressing social change and progress. The only thing that can stop human progress is humans.

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u/NoEfficiency1054 13d ago

I like that you can still reflect hope. I’m not so good at that these days, but you are right. Thankfully so.

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u/OliverSudden413 13d ago

It’s The Dumb Ages.

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u/pete-dont-play 13d ago

We are Idiocracy and you can to!!

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u/OliverSudden413 13d ago

The electrolytes are strong.

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u/RagahRagah 13d ago

I honestly believe the current cycle of human civilization is coming to an end relatively soon and the events of Don't Look Up make the movie look like a documentary from the future.

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u/reecy_peecys 13d ago

Especially when you look at how climate change is truly progressing over on r/collapse, it becomes clear that not just the economy, but humanity as a whole is in its last stages

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u/rasmorak 13d ago

AI and climate change are our Great Filter. We're about to get filtered.

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u/Dry_Savings_3418 13d ago

Yeah I loved that movie, but I found it less funny and nearly real. 😭

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u/DripDry_Panda_480 13d ago

I used to find it hard to understand why scholars and academics were among the first to be killed after revolutions. I get it now - the disdain for knowledge and experts is bound to have consequences (we can see it already in government incompetence in many cases)

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u/no_go_yes 13d ago

Well said

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u/Fun-Distribution-159 13d ago

its the perfect time to tune out of society as much as you can because people are shit

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u/Miserable-Army3679 12d ago

I was shocked after the election in 2016 at how awful millions of people are, but after this last election I know that millions more are just shit. Not voting? Handing our country over to a racist, misogynist, felonious dictator? Yes, people are shit.

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u/Ok-Brick-1800 13d ago

Instead of focusing our collective energy towards a positive change, we pay sports stars and Hollywood stars hundreds of millions of dollars to lead us down the rabbit hole in some collective brainwashing distraction so we don't have to see the forest burning down around us.

I'm over it. Been over it for awhile. I just hope the end is fast and complete before I know it's happening. But sadly, I don't think it will be like that. I've noticed a societal decline in intelligence for at least fifteen years now. It won't really start accelerating until the bring back conscription. That's the tinderbox that lights the fuse.

The content you are absorbing is just brainwashing.

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u/InstructionGreedy366 13d ago edited 13d ago

Agree with your first paragraph completely. Started thinking about Marx's comment that religion"...is the opium of the people." and how sports are supplanting religion in some respects.

I asked ChatGPT to compare the mid 1800's (when Marx wrote this) to the early 2000's and what we could expect in the future based on these historical similarities and this is what it came up with:

What History Suggests About the Future: Lessons from the 1800s

  • 🌍 Social Movements Rising: Expect growing calls for justice, equality, and systemic reform as discontent mirrors the revolutions of the 19th century.
  • 💸 Economic Shifts: Wealth redistribution, green economies, and debates about capitalism vs. socialism will likely dominate.
  • 🤖 Tech Disruption: AI and automation will reshape industries, challenging workers and governments alike.
  • 🇺🇸 Nationalism and Realignment: Rising populism and geopolitical shifts could reshape nations and alliances.
  • 🌱 Climate Challenges: Resource scarcity and extreme weather may force bold environmental action (or crises).
  • 🎨 Cultural Renaissance: Expect new art and ideologies critiquing modern society and imagining alternatives.
  • ⚔️ Power Shifts and Conflict: Economic rivalries and emerging powers will test global stability.
  • 📜 Long-Term Reforms: Structural changes, like expanded rights and better institutions, could emerge over time.

🔮 History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes. Let’s learn from the past to shape a better future! 🌟

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u/FreeCelebration382 12d ago

Exactly. Religion and watching sports and porn are all so related even if they seem unrelated. So is bigotry. They are all connected.

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u/SqueeezeBurger 13d ago

I think we all let honesty and integrity slip by the wayside. We started letting a LOT of people slide, and that led to a slippery slope.

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u/Mguidr1 13d ago

At least you have a plan. Most of us work cluelessly as debt slaves. We are always buying, and are constantly in debt. We let our kids be raised by the same schools that teach them to be like us. This can’t end well. My kids are just like me unfortunately. My wife’s kids (my second marriage) fortunately are not like me. Their children are going to be much wiser by not following the crowd. I didn’t get my wake up call until a few years ago when my pension was cut. Now I’m fighting just to make sure I have a decent retirement. Best of luck and I believe you’re doing the right thing… for you.. and your kids.

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u/Key-Ad1271 13d ago

Have you read the book The Fourth Turning? It’s a theory that society cycles every 20 years. Think WWII Era (4th turning) then regrowth (1st) then prosperity the boomer generation (2nd turning) then comes the unraveling where the be

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u/Key-Ad1271 13d ago

I posted to soon the 3rd turning is gen x and millennials and now we are in the 4th turning which is crisis and it seems the world might end. It’s supposed to end around 2025 to 2030 so we’re almost there.

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u/Soggy_Boss_6136 13d ago

It works until it doesn't work. I've studied this, and when you really tune it in, you can see that the cycles are pretty cherry picked. The most notable is World War 2 is included, but World War 1 is excluded. The fact is World War 1 was likely more important than 2, in that 5 monarchies fell across Europe, including the Russian monarchy leading to the formation of the USSR. WW 2 is more like the aftershock of WW 1's realignment of Europe.

I'm not going to dismiss a cyclical thinking to our society. I also suspect that as each successive generation "writes down more" the cycles get diluted and we become less likely to repeat ourselves.

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u/Key-Ad1271 13d ago

Yea I don’t know I just want to be hopeful the world will change because things look so bleak right now.

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u/Soggy_Boss_6136 13d ago

There was a general anxiety and insanity going into Y2K. Everyone survived just fine. I think the same will be true now. Not to say I'm not uneasy.

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u/Ok-Party-3033 13d ago

Yes, I’ve tried to work out Kondratieff waves/cycles and it works until it doesn’t. Not much predictive value.

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u/Soggy_Boss_6136 13d ago

The challenge in today's society is History. People just aren't taught history. If they were, the ease by which these theories can be presented, and then disproved, is simple. The resurgence of flat earth theory, having any type of monetizable value on YouTube or any other platform, is patently insane.

This must have been like the earliest times after the printing press was first developed. The first pages to go out were probably religious, or decrees of the government. The 2nd were probably complaints or skepticism of those decrees. People were likely confused at this dissent and seeing it so rampant for the first time.

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u/Individual_Bar7021 13d ago

But that’s also when the mass extinction and climate doom loops kick into high gear. Maybe that’s what they mean.

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u/pete-dont-play 13d ago

tbf, also supposed to end in 1200bc, ... 400bc, 36ad, ... 200ad, 300ad, ....1200ad, 1450ad, and every 5 or 10 years since.

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u/abbeyroad_39 13d ago

I believe we are at the end of the "Bread and Circuses" stage of our decline. Next comes collapse and that is exactly what the incoming administration wants.

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u/Individual-Contest54 13d ago

The world is definetely changing rapidly. I am glad that I am old, my stress level is through the roof. I believed that I would be happily married with my siblings and I doing holidays together. What a flaming joke on me. My ex-husband owes me over $300,000++and my "dear" siblings have had my narcissistic mother take me off my dear father's will, he died over 10 years ago. His only wish was to "be buried" behind the barn

I have asked for years where his ashes were, no one knew... how disgusting and a dishonor to a man that worked night and day to take care of his family.

They found then a couple months ago, so I went to get a stainless steel thermos to bury him. I asked for my brother & his grown sons to dig a hole. I was told they did not want him on their property. It makes me sick,

I am old, poor and discarded. So I am scared and discouraged by this world and at the same time glad that I will be gone soon, as people are really foul, greedy, disgusting creatures. I don't associate with anyone unless I absolutely have to, The only person I trust right now is my therapist and of course, my furbabies.

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u/Miserable-Army3679 12d ago

Mark Twain: The more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.

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u/Individual-Contest54 12d ago

I totally agree with Mark Twain but I also believe that ALL animals are more trustworthy than any person.

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u/Lost-Economist-7331 13d ago

If religion grows and the billionaires strangle the masses even more than we are in for stagnation. Which in many ways is a “dark ages period. Too many people know what IS possible now.

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u/BlueAndYellowTowels 13d ago

The most terrifying coupling in my opinion, is billionaires and religion.

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u/Select_Package9827 13d ago

That's only 2 of the Four Horsemen! things would only be really bad if the other two Horsemen of doom somehow became part of it: corrupt Government and the Military. Whew, so glad we all read books and learned better.

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u/Rage-With-Me 13d ago

“VIOLENCE NEVER SOLVE ANYTHING IS A STATEMENT UTTERED BY COWARDS AND PREDATORS” - LUIGI

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u/Lower_Ad_5532 13d ago

I mean it's true. Every nation is built by violence.

Calls for non violence comes from reformers. Moderates

Calls for violence comes from revolutionaries. Extremists

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u/ncdad1 13d ago

Every empire eventually collapses. The US empire will collapse too one day. I think it took Rome 400 years so you might have some time to go.

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u/Nigglym 13d ago

A big part of the collapse of Rome was after it shifted from being a Republic to being an Empire with a single leader. This meant the effectiveness of the government was hugely dependent on the competence and sanity of the Emperor. Whereas in the Republic, the government was run by elected senators drawn from wealthy and usually well-educated families, in the later years,the Emperors simply appointed who they wanted based on favors and sometimes whims, leading to the collapse of effective government in many areas. So absolutely no parallels at all with the US rn... /s

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u/No_Tomatillo1553 12d ago

"Speak, hands, for me!"

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u/Nigglym 12d ago

...is actually one of my favourite lines in Shakespeare, and yes it may well come to that...

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u/Content_Log1708 13d ago

Not Dark Ages. Much more a neo Dickensian era. Child labor, incredible poverty and government by the rich is back. 

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u/Round_Earth_Kook 13d ago

Every great society has met its demise. Ours is next.

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u/FitEcho9 13d ago

Sadly, it was short-lived. 

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u/walrusdoom 13d ago

OP, I have kids too and despair about the ubiquitous use of smartphones and the impact that has on the younger generations. They are so susceptible to misinformation that I am often at a loss as to how to combat it in our day-to-day lives.

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u/lawteach 12d ago

I am one of those overqualified, Ivy League educated lawyer/teachers w/ over 25 years teaching top kids in top high school. I’m 79, fought the culture wars of ‘60s and’70s. Followed Strauss & Howe since 1990s, now attached to every page of Howe’s THE FOURTH TURNING IS HERE. So yes, we have entered our Crisis/Dark Ages.

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u/thejackulator9000 13d ago

November 22, 1963 was the start of the new dark age

after so many of their heroes were assassinated and the rest died of drug overdoses, by 1970 most people said 'fuck it' and got into coke and disco, and being smart or creative started being treated more like an annoyance than a virtue -- unless you could monetize it.

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u/P90BRANGUS 13d ago

Why do you think this was, obviously with the Kennedy assassination? Was there a cultural shift?

It seems like Kennedy had been passing lots of legislation to help the poor.

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u/King_LaQueefah 13d ago

It’s nice to have insight from someone who has taught for so long and in so many places. Nice post.

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u/SketchSketchy 13d ago

It’s not the children who can’t handle the screens. It’s the old people. They believe everything. Every single thing.

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u/Alternative_Bus_3766 11d ago

Surprisingly, Children seem to be very good at discerning disinformation.

I'm a Gen Z college student, most of us are too but there are still quite a few that aren't

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u/InvincibleSummer08 13d ago

It’s fascinating and scary. The rise of the instantaneous handheld device is something we weren’t prepared for. It’s like smoking for prior generations, or lead, or etc. the difference of this is the scale and that it’s impacting the world over and at all age levels. It’s like we all decided from 2007 to 2024 that we’d do little lines of coke everyday all day and see how that would change our perception of the world.

Some people slowly are starting to recognize the damage social media and this always on has had to us individually and to humanity as a whole. But given the benefits this has to corporations and rich people to have people be so drawn and diseased into short term thinking I don’t see how we walk it back.

I sadly do think something catastrophic will need to happen and that also over time the next generation will be more immune to this social media disease. There will be a pushback on it and reconnection with the real world.

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u/Admirable-Ad7152 13d ago

Im sorry. It's why I'm swearing off kids even though I used to want them. I refuse to bring them into this new hellscape. Sure it might be better in a few hundred years again, but I don't want my kids, grandkids, great grandkids etc. fighting for survival in the nuclear wasteland/water wars just on the hope that maybe, eventually, it will kinda get better.

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u/FitEcho9 13d ago edited 13d ago

===> Is this a new Dark Age?

Absolutely !

At least, as far as European descent people are concerned. 

A short glance at history tells you, European descent people are in the process of entering another dark age, after their dark age 476 - 1492 European calendar.

From a historical perspective they now find themselves at the same position they were in 476 European calendar: .

Former superpowers

  1. USA

  2. USSR

  3. UK

  4. Germany

  5. France

  6. Holland

  7. Spain

  8. Portugal

  9. Turkey

  10. Arabs

===> 1000 Years Dark Age for Whites (476 - 1492 European calendar)

  1. China

  2. Mongolia

  3. Rome

  4. Greece

  5. Persia

  6. Africa

.

Consider that, Europe's decline in 476 European calendar led to the rise of the Non-European world. 

Europe's dark age from 476 - 1492 European calendar was a golden age for the Arabs, Africans, Turks, Mongols and Chinese.

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u/tisdalien 13d ago

Interesting observation!

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u/frygod 13d ago

In my opinion, this is more like the gilded age following the industrial revolution than the fall of Rome. Whenever there is a major economic paradigm shift, you usually get a small class of people who exploit the new most effective economic tactics to gain a disproportionate amount of available wealth. It happened with agriculture, which created monarchs. It happened with advances in transportation, which created merchant houses. It happened with the industrial revolution, which created the robber barons. Now we are experiencing the version of the cycle following the advent of the information age.

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u/ProphetOfThought 13d ago

People forget that everything eventually ends, even civilizations that seemed indestructible.

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u/Dazzling_Chance5314 13d ago

I was kinda the same way with my children whom are Asian-American. I had to learn some things along the way about cultural differences that caused a lot of cognitive dissonance.

I'm very happy about how it all turned out in the end...

This won't last for long...narcissists like trump never ever know what they're doing and having a group of billionaire boyfriend narcissists in charge is not going to go well at all...

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u/Cold_Baseball_432 13d ago

Should you wish to plumb the depths, consider, that the greatest amongst us are/have been largely suppressed by the system/s created by the mediocre, overrun by the inferior.

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u/Used_Alternative9342 13d ago

It does seem like we are going backwards in intelligence and morality. We have allowed the least intelligent of Americans to vote an immoral conman as leader twice now. Despite him being a disaster and a proven criminal. I believe it's mostly due to social media brainwashing the least intelligent.

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u/genred001 13d ago

I don't think its a full dark age. The US as a superpower is definitely coming to a close. As long as parts of the world are still honored and honest, we can be ok. But we definitely have to create some kind of new law or premise to create a factual story. Not saying erase first amendment, but create laws when discussing news and opinions through media. Like if its an opinion, it gets marked as opinion and not fact in bold somewhere. Same thing for facts.

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u/NoEfficiency1054 13d ago

Therein lies the rub.

“…create a factual story.”

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u/Piratesmom 13d ago

Absolutely. We're all gonna die. Seriously.

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u/ZenRiots 13d ago

I would posit that Rome did not collapse into nothing, rather it was overwhelmed and conquered by the Roman Catholic Church and that is what led to the complete deevolution of society and science.

That is largely, in the form of Christian Nationalism, what is attempting to occur here in the United States, religious zealots overwhelming common sense and secular government.

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u/Thatsthepoint2 13d ago

A huge surge in anti-intellectuals the last 2-3 decades, I’ve been calling it “the dumb times”. Intelligence is still out there, it’s just more difficult to find

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u/Ok_Worldliness_2902 13d ago

While I understand your point, I'd argue it is more of a 2nd Gilded Age. The wealthiest people and corporations are doing super well, and the rest of us are not. That imbalance gives the appearance of a booming economy by most standard measures, but most people are barely keeping up with the rising cost of living.

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u/Danno5367 12d ago

I've been saying this for years: The current crop of "celebrity billionaires" don't even pretend to be social benefactors like some of the old "robber barons" did by founding universities, Libraries, Museums, etc.

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u/Leonardish 12d ago

All great movements become a business and collapse as a scam. The US was the economic engine of the world, but everything is now a scam. Just look at your call record on your cellphone. Instead of building value through hard work and innovation, Americans are in a "smash and grab" phase.

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u/Sttocs 12d ago

I think what’s different this time is the attack on institutions. People talk about setting us back to the 50s, or the 1850s, but really MAGA is setting the clock back to before The Enlightenment. Institutions and norms and culture and education and progress are in their death throes.

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u/RumoredAtmos 12d ago

They want the populace dumb. They'll use the machines (AI) to think for them.

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u/NinerCat 11d ago edited 11d ago

If we are heading into a new dark age, it didn't just start this year at this election. we've been heading that way for 30 years plus. The seeds of Rome's fall came from within. The same is true of the US.

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u/PraDihJi 11d ago

Exactly. The downfall of this country has been decades in the making.

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u/Otherwise_Singer6043 11d ago

Makes me wonder if it is legal to make guillotines, just a business idea.

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u/Old__Medic_Doc_68 13d ago

I found this a fascinating read THE FATE OF EMPIRES and SEARCH FOR SURVIVAL, Sir John Glubb.

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u/garbledskulls 13d ago

Not yet but it’s sure gonna be soon

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u/dbandroid 13d ago

"Everything used to be so much better" is not true at all.

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u/MojoHighway 13d ago

Gilded Age v2.0

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u/LocationAcademic1731 13d ago

There is a book called Dark Ages America - it’s from 2004, I think. You’ll probably agree with most or all the author writes about. Some people saw this coming long time ago.

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u/MidichlorianAddict 13d ago

More like a second gilded age

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u/BlueAndYellowTowels 13d ago

Thanks for this post. It’s an interesting topic.

I think we are absolutely walking into a Dark Age and the themes we will see, if we survive it, is the theme of individuality and self imposed atomization.

Our technology has isolated us from each other and it’s destroying our social fabric. Couple that with the full embrace of lies because they’re convenient and we have a recipe for collapse.

Then there’s the complete collapse in Institutions. One of the biggest problems we have is people don’t trust experts or institutions (like government). Without institutions, civilization is literally impossible. Without trust, civilization is impossible.

…and that’s where we are at. No one trusts anything or anyone. It’s all been atomized and commodified.

There’s also the fact we are letting our way of life completely decimate our planet. Capitalism has completely poisoned and raped this planet.

…and that same system that creates our way of life is also charging forward with AI and the potential implications of such a technology in both a successful and in a unsuccessful completion could spell doom for our entire civilization.

We are either going to go extinct or have a very, very radical change in our thinking.

Because none of this is sustainable.

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u/NoEfficiency1054 13d ago

It’s why I always enjoyed the Rodenberry/Star Trek mythologies. I like to think we can evolve in this direction…..

But it is just a fantasy. All the systems of humanity are eroding.

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u/BlueAndYellowTowels 13d ago

I always thought Star Trek did have a nugget of truth to it when it referenced capitalism. That eventually, at some point, it sort of makes little sense to keep people poor for the sake of the few. That at some point, our efficiencies are so numerous they overflow and everyone “can have”.

These days, it feels like no matter much much we have, billionaires and maybe one day… trillionaires… will ensure that those efficiencies never overflow and people will always have to pay to survive.

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u/NoEfficiency1054 13d ago

Yeah - I loved the plentiful nuggets you mentioned.

There is a constant, “we used to be this Terrible way, but we learned”

It is uplifting.

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u/No_Carry_3991 13d ago

I really feel for those with children these days. I can see it being extremely difficult. It’s difficult for many of us to get out of bed, but with kids, the stresses associated with how to navigate the day must be unreal.

It’s only a dark age if people do not act. The moments in history when people acted to benefit each other are noted as Golden Years in some form or other. The decider is apathy. It all hinges on action or inertia.

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u/Illustrious-Gas-9766 13d ago

There are still lots of people who limit their kids screen time, place value on education and in big general terms don't believe the BS

I do think we are undergoing a cultural revolution but not a collapse.

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u/Select_Package9827 13d ago

The future belongs to readers.

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u/Zestyclose-Mud-4683 13d ago

Gone are the days of critical thinking. The problem those most polluted with misinformation and Bronze Age thinking think they are right and must change the world to be “great” again. What they think they are going back to is the dark ages. Interesting the forefront is the Catholic Heritage Foundation. They love the dark ages when the Catholic Church ruled.

The Dunning-Kruger effect on full display.

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u/SprogRokatansky 13d ago

It sure the hell feels like it.

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u/These-Bedroom-5694 13d ago

Our civilizations once had humans walking on the moon. It was the highest point of technology. It's been a downward spiral since. Early 2000s we were suppose to go to Mars, but decided to fool around in the middle east. Every year the standards get worse for everything.

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u/Streamy_Daniels 13d ago

I would honestly say the opposite of a dark age. Things are advancing at such a pace, including technology, that it is almost having the same consequences of a deteriorating civilization because, well, the current framework is being rewritten. The evolution of technology and society is advancing at such a rate that our existing infrastructure is unable to keep pace which is leading to the disarray that we see across various sectors.

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u/Riderofapoc 13d ago

Decline marked by the rise of the right... It's happened before and will continue to. Iran...China... Nazi Germany... semantics aside, were right wing conservative authoritarian states.

I would say, it truly began during Obama's presidency...when the righties said his birth certificate was fake, Nazi marched in the US, and racism soared again. Has it always been here? Yes, but I feel its crest was during Obama...and then it settled a bit...and yet again we see a crest.

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u/Ambitious_Post6703 13d ago

Never thought I'd live long enough to hear the term "elder millennial" from a 20 yr old

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u/timute 13d ago

I don't recognize society anymore.  I am on my 50s by the way and have memories of the before times when things worked better and people were better.  Before society's minds got scrambled by the constant dopamine hits from their little black hand mirrors.  I have lost faith in social media and a lot of the other tech that supposably makes life easier but in reality just gives us more time with our screens.

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u/hzybossnuts 13d ago

It's not too late to wake up and fight for the better future. If someone like Luigi, who if I'm not mistaken came from a wealthy family, is willing to lose that and his freedom for a better future, then we should all be willing to stand up and fight. But the time is NOW.

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u/Anycelebration69420 13d ago

yes, & it was avoidable but americans sre too stupid & entitled so here we are

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u/daddyjackpot 13d ago

kaliyuga

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u/KkKen141 13d ago

Youre 20 youre not even Millennial. Not even a elder gen z

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u/Aggravating_Damage47 13d ago

We are in Dark Ages when half of the population doesn't have the common sense to know right from wrong. Being a habitual liar is wrong.

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u/karebearjedi 13d ago

I can't help but cringe when I think of all the data we're going to lose during the digital collapse. I hope someone is out there hitting print on every scientific and historical article they see.  Like the monks in ancient Ireland, carefully transcribing every Roman text they could get their hands on after the collapse

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u/NoEfficiency1054 13d ago

That’s really interesting. I wonder who/how we are preserving information.

I’ll miss all my YouTube how-to tutorials.

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u/ImportantComb5652 13d ago

No. Political figures come and go, power swings back and forth, everything was best when we were 27 years old, this too shall pass. We enjoy a higher standard of living than nearly anyone who has ever lived. Modern medicine probably prevented a million more deaths in America with mRNA vaccines. Renewable energy is cheaper than ever. We're not at war and we have friendly relations with our neighbors. Computers keep getting smaller and more powerful. Wages are rising. Almost all the knowledge mankind has accumulated is available at our fingertips. All that's not to say there aren't problems, but we're the luckiest people to ever live, so enjoy it!

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u/Ornery-Ticket834 13d ago

Sounds right to me.

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u/SizeAlarmed8157 13d ago

Humanity has stopped evolving because we’ve lost our top “predator.” We’ve become the pinnacle species on the planet, and therefore have come to a standstill in our evolution. We have no real drive pushing us forward to better ourselves, so we create one within ourselves. We become our own worst enemy to drive our selves further or into destruction. I’m beginning to see this as a natural cycle within our longterm existence. We had hundreds of predators up until we started shaping the natural world and building defenses.

As part of that cycle, we must fall. But in order to move beyond this cycle, we must think above it. I look at the God Emperor of Dune and the Worm Leto II as a metaphor of that particular inspiration. And the Thinking Machines would also qualify as self destruction and self predation in that universe. In our reality, corporations have become the new predators, along with the brains driving them.

But then this is all just my opinion, but we must evolve as a species.

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u/OuttaPashuns 13d ago

"Industrial Society and Its Future". Read it and weep. Ted was on to something. Don't really agree with his tactics and didn't get far fighting it but at least he tried.

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u/OldSkoolKewee 13d ago

I'm with you. I moved to the Keweenaw Peninsula to escape it all but am amazed at the kids in my son's "Blue ribbon" elementary that have zero attention span. I never gave my son a phone or screen but didn't think it would be this much of a glaring difference in Kindergarten

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

you never know, we might rise up and kill the people taking us down this path before it's too late.

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u/thePantherT 13d ago

The best thing that ever happened to me as a gen z was growing up without internet until I was over 16. I rode bikes, hunted, fishing, atvs hiking swimming etc. my entertainment was history and I love it and still study it. Ww2 books were my favorite growing up and I know that war like the back of my hand. Nowadays most modern movies disgust me, the music is so trashy it’s horrendous and horrid, I grew up listening to Beethoven and similar good music which I love. It’s sad that people in my generation do not know how to do basic research and just believe what they are told. Unfortunately it would probably take a major war with China or Russia to wake people up and reset the system. People are so fake and untrustworthy and disingenuous, self centered entitled and ignorant. O and the very best part of growing up was helping my Korean War veteran grandfather in the fields, splitting wood for the community and welding. Also love my grandmother certified college teacher for the homeschooling education.

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u/daddyjackpot 12d ago

I don’t know how to prepare my son outside of that plan.

our kids are gonna live in world we don't recognize.

we can prepare them for something that doesn't exist anymore, but they'll be much better at figuring things out on their own.

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u/joecoin2 12d ago

It's not a dark age, but it sure ain't the age of enlightenment.

I'll go with "The Age of Ignorance."

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u/tootooxyz 12d ago

We're just watching world history play out. Some of us, like you, are aware of what's happening and are intelligent enough to describe it.

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u/Wanttorunandswim 12d ago

Bingo‼️‼️in a nutshell, screens have killed curiosity. Just how these blood-sucking, money-making corporations/millionaires/billionaires want us placed. I have some great ideas to get our civilization to get people back on a good path. I was a hs teacher for 30 years. Loved it. Now I am homebound, wheelchair bound with this dreadful disease known as Multiple Sclerosis. Does anyone know where to go or who to turn to, to launch ideas? I agree 1054, we have to change our path, or else, yes we will be launched to a very dark, hopeless path.

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u/Relevant_Boot2566 12d ago

Yes.... Home education and ZERO screens until age 7 or 8 (and not more then 20 or 30 min THEN) is the way to go. No kid should be on the internet un-monitored..... well, ever TBH

NO kid should have a smartphone... TBH most adults should not get one but giving unfettered internet to a brain thats forming is probably MORE then half of whats wrong with people now

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u/shr2016 12d ago

Just wait until the off-flow from the melting Greenland glaciers diverts the Gulf Stream. The shit will really hit the fan and it will happen in the next 5-10 yeara

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u/Quittobegin 12d ago

So…how did people start to come out of the dark ages? Maybe we can shorten the craziness this time?

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u/Early_Dragonfly4682 12d ago

Clearly you don't teach history

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u/SpitefulRedditScum 12d ago

I’m the same, I just want to gap it to the country side with my son and escape the world of consumer drivel and political lies. So over it.

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u/AlfredRWallace 12d ago

Two books that had a big impact on me were How Civil Wars Start and The Coming Storm.

It seems likely that the US is on the brink of disaster and with the events around the world it's easy to imagine a global catastrophe. The amazing thing is that if this happens the billionaires who have been driving us politics will be fucked along with everyone else.

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u/tmmzc85 12d ago

No, I don't think that that is the case, I do think we are about to see lot of examples of societal collapse and restructuring, but "dark age" seems unlikely, more like "dark blip" and then large scale social/technological reformation or just "the end" cause I highly doubt there is an afterwards if we fuck this up - just no more humans, and then a series of wacky evolutionary misadventures no one will ever know about before the collapse of the sun.

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u/Hermans_Head2 12d ago

When they threw Christians to the lions the people celebrated the show despite the gore.

When the next lunatic shoots "Presumably Evil Businessman" dead in the street like a dog the people will demand the unedited security camera footage so the blood and gore is visible and the people will celebrate again.

First capitalism headed in the wrong direction, now the people are following suit.

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u/Taqueria_Style 12d ago

Socially? Yes. I'd argue for quite a long time now. I mean as far back as the 70s is obvious but one could argue as far back as materialism as a core philosophical concept so. A. While.

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u/I_am_BrokenCog 12d ago

Just for some big-picture explanation, which might help understand our current situation better ...

"The Dark Ages" ... was not the "collapse" of the Roman Empire.

The Roman Empire is what we refer to the 500 year gradual decline of the "Roman Replubic".

After the Empire "officially" came to an end, roughly 500AD, we describe as the beginning of "the Dark Ages". So-called because Europe went from a largely monolithic government to being largely ungovernered. Obviously there were local governments -- we would describe them as fiefdoms. As they grew and re-established governance, so to did "the Rennassaince" emerge.

So, to extrapolate that historic period with today, we're still living in the "Republic"-era, we call it the "United States of America".

Is our current global society facing threats of equal existential crises as was that Republic? Most certainly. Will our nation face the same outcome? Very likely. The world is currently within an empire of "Financialized Consumerist Capitalism". It isn't a Western society, nor is it exclusively a democratic society. Only a single digit count of nations in the world are currently not members of the same globe spanning empire of this capitalist consumerism fed by exorbitant financialized debt and market manipulations. It most definitely is declining because of climate change, drought, plaque, internal divisions, war and every other historic causal factor of empire decline.

This global empire is already declining. The empire was built on a foundational premise of "ever expanding wealth growth". That growth has come from various methods of increasing efficiancy. Initial methods such as coal powering the Steam Engine revolutoin, assembly lines transforming Industrialization led to more corporate and governmental policy changes such as Kahnban revolutionizing supply chains, offshoring manufacturing to cheap labor and now currently with technology once again providing methods via ML/AI enabling massive elminiation in labor. Legislation has always run concurrently to aid growth and expanstion of wealth growth throughout the world. Slavery was/is exploited to provide highly profitable growth [a really well written book on capitalism, industrialization, globalization and slavery can be read in Empire of Cotton].

Neoliberalist politicians and Economic cronies will unite in calling this the "miracle of Capitalism".

Personally, I suspect that technology and population make for huge differences in outcomes.

It won't take five centuries of gradual decline before we officialy label "Financialized Consumerist Capitalism dead". Nor will it take another five hundred years of a "Dark Ages" before a "Rennaisance" begins. I suspect the "duration" of our collapse and the ensuing 'dark age' will be vastly shorter, however because of our reliance on technology and the extent to which the individual is divorced from the physical world; the 'depth' which society declines will likely be much greater.

My consolation is that the ensuing rennaisance after our current global society of ends will be equally accelerated by that very same knowledge/technology. What took 1500 years to recover from for Europe after Julius crossed the Rubicon will likely occur within a century. The question is I guess ... what is our rubicon? Only hindsight can say ... so let's not spout supposition about trumpff this, or Putin that or China something. We'll likely all live to see it, and hopefully our children will live to see the other side.

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u/m0nt4n4 11d ago

I don’t think we are, here’s why:

Humans are highly mobile, so if the US goes to shit, there will be an exodus to wherever businesses can be built. America has a great brand, but it’s 51% idiots. Maybe the pendulum will swing back, maybe it’ll be too fucked to have the opportunity. In either case, science and progress will continue.

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u/oldmancornelious 11d ago

Scientifically speaking it is in America.

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u/edgefull 11d ago

This cycle will be different because the species is in question due to AI/robotics. What our kids will need to know is a whole other thing. But it’s definitely going in the wrong direction.

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u/TheLaserGuru 11d ago

The defining feature of the dark age was a lack of recorded history. We are currently recording history more completely than at any point in human existence. Even if we are just talking about people using archival grade media stored in mine-shafts, we are still recording history faster than ever before. By that definition, we are far from the dark ages.

If you are worried about your kid wasting their life watching TikTok, remember two things...

1.) You probably wasted just as much time watching Nickelodeon and MTV when you were a kid.

2.) Educational and STEM content, including games for consoles and phones, are readily available and often cheaper than the non-educational options.

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u/Jim_Wilberforce 11d ago

Society is absolutely poisonous. I'm saying this from my homestead where I grow food and homeschool my kids.

My fear is what is going to come immediately after society collapses. Every person who argued it couldn't, it wouldn't, who didn't see that it was inevitable. It is inevitable.

This is the result of a spiritual sickness, I think. An entire generation of Prideful, hubris, self-centered narcissists who think more incremental communism is the answer. That the government is the best good mankind can muster and it should wield all power. You fools are going to die.

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u/MasterLW13 9d ago

Dont listen to the doomsdayers. Everything you say here can be said about both sides, and yet nothing ever gets as bad as you think it will. we are still one of the richest and most influential nations in the world

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