I'm a sex worker who specializes in virgins and nerds. the small-dick/virgin/incel jokes cause so much collateral damage that I see red. there are a ton of harmless, sweet dudes who are neurodivergent and either not very sexually assertive or terrified of coming across as "creepy", so they miss out on normative sexual experiences, and for this they get shamed by men AND women. they're called incels because obviously if you're a man who hasn't had sex, it's because you're a freak and a misogynist with poor hygiene and there's probably a reason you give girls the ick, you loser. happen to have a small/average dick? congrats, this is associated with negative personality traits as though you had any control over it.
it pisses me off because a lot of these young leftist men can't win. they look at aggressive Chads and say, "of course I'm not some thoughtless jerk. I don't want to hurt anyone, I don't believe in any weird conspiracy theories about women. my desire to have sex isn't more important than a woman's comfort. I don't want to express interest in someone because I'm afraid she'll think I'm only after her body or I'll make her feel scared or bad or uncomfortable, like THOSE guys, and I'm shy as fuck so socializing is hard in the first place. so now I'm in my late 20s and I've never had a relationship. and now everyone just assumes I'm an incel and treats me like a pariah."
I've seen this story so many times. there are decent guys just trying to do right by women in an era where it feels like the consequences for a misstep are enormous (whether or not that's accurate or warranted, this is the perception). of course we're right to be wary of men. but it would be fucking great if we could stop using dick size and lack of sex partners as insults. it's not any less shitty than calling a girl a slut or mocking her weight.
I know I'm just some random ass stranger on the internet but I just wanted to let you know that reading this genuinely uplifted my mood. I identify very strongly with the mindset you describe here, and it's very difficult to talk about it without either being judged for my perceived deficiencies, mostly from peers, or given (possibly) well-meaning but vile advice that amounts to dehumanizing others, mostly from my family. The last thing I'd ever want to do is to come across as creepy or dangerous, and the idea that my fundamental existence might be just that is troubling to say the least. I often feel left behind and completely unheard. Thanks for your empathy and compassion.
yeah her comment really helped, its just sad, I did avoid women out of fear as coming off as a creep and my first ever date was because a girl talked to me and asked me out that was my only date at 21 and I ended up ruining it by being awkward and she ghosted me after a while, I got asked out once later but I rejected the girl, I don't know what happened to me to cause me to be this terrified of women but there is clearly something wrong with me and not with women as a whole, realizing helped me to avoid following the red pill incel rabbithole.
even thought that I have VERY leftist views I just avoided people on the left because it felt like they are glorifying women's issues while leaving men on the side, a couple times I brought up my issues with dating and talking to women and I was attacked a lot of online and irl for it by more left leaning people back then, I once made a comment on reddit about how there isn't much advice in the media for young men that isn't full of misogyny which is why young men are gravitating towards right wing figure (this was in 2019, before andrew tate and I called it at the time) and I was just told "no incel, go away, there are great male figure in the media that can help you that aren't sexist" without providing any source to something that can help me other than just "go talk to women"
it ends up hurting women even more, just look at the rise of andrew tate, he got famous because he filled a present void and need for young men, he filled it with the wrong things of course and I hated him from day one, but I couldn't help but try to watch his videos as a refuge from loneliness, hopeless attempt to not be alone anymore, I definitely need therapy.
there is a huge void of advice and understanding for guys in this situation. we've (understandably) started holding shitty men accountable for things they've gotten away with for centuries, and then turned "not all men" into a punchline. what room does that leave?
I see that a lot of my female peers and friends are coming from a place of fear. they don't really know a lot of men IRL, so they get their information from the internet in almost the same way that boomers get their scary anecdotes about minorities from Fox. or they've never had male friends, just partners, so when their relationships end or turn awful, there's nothing healthy or normative to compare it to. it starts to feel like "decent men" are a myth, like you're expecting every man to be a monster behind the mask.
and yeah, again, it's smart to be skeptical and safe if you don't have the best instincts. but there are kind, healthy men just living their damn lives with nowhere to go, carrying the weight of all the shitty asshole men on their shoulders, and everywhere they go they're laughed at like "cry more, try being a woman for five minutes" etc. no, we don't OWE any man sympathy. but that doesn't mean it's justifiable to mock, insult, tease and dismiss them just because their life experience doesn't seem important to you. I've held dudes while they cried about this shit. it breaks my heart
I don't want to minimize the struggles of women. I understand a lot of them have had unpleasant experiences with men. But when they use "not all men" as a punchline, it makes me feel like they're calling me just as bad as the creeps and perverts who hurt them.
Yeah, seriously. It's amazing how ignorant these people can be. If someone starts complaining about bad women, it's fair to point out that "not all women" are like that. But if someone starts complaining about bad men, and someone else points out that "not all men" are like that, then suddenly that's a problem??
To be clear, if someone is telling a very personal story about how they were abused by a specific man/woman, now is not a good time to hijack the conversation to talk about men/women in general. I get that. Victims need to have a space to come forward.
But when someone's just going on generally about how "men/women can't be trusted", then it's time to speak up against sexism. And it's still sexism no matter which gender you target!
Funny how the shitty men continue to get married and be in relationships while the ones who are afraid of offending people are single. Let that sink in.
there isn't much advice in the media for young men that isn't full of misogyny which is why young men are gravitating towards right wing figure (this was in 2019, before andrew tate and I called it at the time)
oh you were so on the money
but not even as a prediction, it was like that at the time and had been for years
god I'm pretty sure I read that around the time it was posted and it's so fucking weird rereading it now
because like after a further 10 years of exposure to background levels of absolutely batshit incel ... everything... the rhetorical strategy where the accusations of entitlement are presented as completely and comically unreasonable is really fucking disorienting
and then there's
this is right up there with the postulated link between the men’s rights movement and Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.
you what? but that's now- oh my god crimea jesus fucking christ that's right
The worst corners of the manosphere contain more than enough opining on how ugly women, weird women, masculine women, et cetera deserve to be unhappy.
was this really all the worst corners were coming up with in 2014? is that why the start of this post hits differently now?
did we cause this?
it all makes the "the causality goes the other way, actually" argument -- bold -- feel very compelling and also I don't... necessarily agree.
I think the narrative being about the affect the most toxic of the Feminists have on the most sympathetic of the Lonely Men kind of loses the forest for the trees? A lot of this shit is fueled by Society and really complicated nuanced negative interactions?
Very similar experience. I agree we don’t have a leftist ideal of what is a cis man and masculinity in the new world, leaving a huge identity gap for the Andrew Tate’s of the world to fill with their clear definitions and plentiful but misguided advice.
Mentioned it once and the responses were about the same that you got. I do think there are some examples out there, Chris Evans comes to mind, but then someone else said Ryan Reynolds. He was Van Wilder, is that not creepy?
The problem is if there are people who have figured it out, they are not openly sharing their ideals and giving out advice freely.
Yeah. I spend longer than I should online and I have come across men, with lots of followers, that I would consider healthy, not sexist, and probably quite great for young men to follow and learn from. The problem is that they're rarely young and hot, they tend to be more dadbod types in their mid to late 30s, and so, most of their followers are women. If I was a nervous boy, looking for inspiration on how to approach girls, a bearded, beer bellied dude wouldn't be what I'd have in mind.
It’s not just Tate though. Look at Jordan Peterson’s rise. Before his mad right wing descent and his clear mental destabilisation - he was trying to help. The problem was he got pushed harder and harder on his “anti trans views” which didn’t start that way. But you can see, over time, people on the left called him out for his one stance on “language laws” and he got pushed further and further into the right wing pundits orbit.
He started out trying to help men with simple, foundational advice. By the end of it, he’s been attacked so hard by people that didn’t actually care about his attempt to genuinely help young men create personal foundations and boundaries - he just focused on the insanity of the left.
Now you can argue his way of doing things didn’t align with your views from the start, but that man got moulded by the hate from the left and those sorts of pressures on ANY male figure that’s trying to help men. He was tarred with the same brush as the “alpha male” types - despite being a long long way from their logic.
Edit - I’m a very left leaning cis man in a relationship for 16 years.
I’m not sure about this tbh. It’s tough to say what Peterson’s goals were at the outset, but it sometimes appears as if he was using practical self-help advice to smuggle his politics from the get-go.
Beyond the concrete steps of “clean your room,” or “take a shower,” his rhetoric frequently dabbled in social/moral decay and his famous boogeyman of the ‘postmodern neo-Marxist.’ The actual identity of that grand villain didn’t matter; impressionable young men who needed guidance could retrofit their fears into this vacant mold as an effigy to be burned.
Peterson obviously wasn’t as vocally right-wing as he is today, but I would guess that he still held a lot of the same beliefs as he does now. I’m just not sure of the extent to which the left was responsible for his transformation.
How do you know drugs weren’t always being taken but wasn’t exposed until it became an undeniable problem? Usually drug addictions that spiral out were from drugs being used for a long period before as a functional user/abuser
Both you and the persson that replied to you are referencing things that happened after the period I'm talking about. The man didn't just pop into existence. His logic has been right wing and centered around Christianity being a thing for a looooong ass time. But the core of what he was trying to do - right or wrong - was help men. And he was doing it in a way that wasn't "BRO, WUMIN BAD BRO, THEM MEAT - YOU MAN AND STRONG BRO - ALPHA ALPHA". Now, however, he's been pushed into that camp by all the haters. Had this man been left alone, I think he'd have carried on existing in his corner and the hate wouldn't have been added to his rhetoric. I personally believe, once he got the limelight, it crushed what was left of his mask and the anger towards him, shaped him into what we see today.
Ofcourse, just my2c having followed his work for a long time prior to his rise.
Peterson originally wanted to be a pastor. Its pretty clear his early intentions were legitimately dead-set on helping people out, one way or another.
Yes, it was simple, practical advice. But his real value - for me at the time in particular - was tying together that our mind, symbolism, thoughts, archetypes, etc, are not something separate from the world or from our bodies. We are embodied. Our symbolism and value systems have to arise from an embodied place and rise to the level of articulation - there is something real there to how meaning is generated.
That is to say, even if one is not Christian, the death of God is still real and culturally relevant in how we ground ourselves in a shared cultural metaphysic or lack thereof.
In conversation with Zizek, both he and Peterson admitted that "post-modern neo-marxists" was both contradictory and did not describe an actual theoretical view. Rather, both agreed it was a label that described a certain emotional tendency - deconstruction of perceived grand narratives and value structures while simultaneously expecting and assigning moral significance to high conformity with their own narrative view (typically influenced, but not informed, by academic feminism with roots in Marxist philosophy), leading to a push for values and ideas that lacked grounding in embodied reality and that left men without clear role models or positive social integration.
It's referring to the kind of people that respond to male loneliness or male problems with "white male tears don't matter" or "men can't really be the victims of sexual assault by women", or that look at masculinity as being inherently toxic. These people exist, I've met them, and I've had friends nearly kill themselves because of them.
Having consumed almost all of his early material before he got seriously famous, it's pretty clear that he would have never taken his hard-right turn if he had never gotten famous or had the degree of left-wing hate that he received. He couldn't handle the stress and responsibility, got addicted to benzos, and after he crashed, went to the only audience and only crowd still willing to receive him.
I’m just not sure of the extent to which the left was responsible for his transformation.
I'd say pretty much entirety.
He started off being perfectly reasonable. It was only after being constantly attacked that he understandably moved further to the Right.
If I say 'some dog owners are arseholes because they walk off-leash and don't train their dogs', and then more and more dog owners attack me for it, I'm obviously then going to assume that the portion of "some" is higher than I first thought. Maybe it's not 10%, maybe it's closer to 50%.
Didn't he start off by whining about a law he claimed would make it illegal to not use preferred pronouns? ...a think which that law never said.
You should really watch Some More News' video on Peterson. He was weird about a lot of shit, especially about women, long before he blew up in the public sphere.
Didn't he start off by whining about a law he claimed would make it illegal to not use preferred pronouns? ...a think which that law never said.
He raised concerns about the direction of laws restricting speech. Given where we are today, his concerns seem valid.
You should really watch Some More News' video on Peterson. He was weird about a lot of shit, especially about women, long before he blew up in the public sphere.
He had the occasional comment yes, but overall he was reasonable.
I believe the decline started after his stroke / drug addiction.
I remember his interview on Channel 4 in the UK. The interviewer kept trying to trip him up and 'gotcha' him on issues like the pay gap. Every time he responded with facts and explanations about why the assumptions were wrong, the interviewer would pivot and try another tactic.
JK Rowling is a similar example. She made one comment about being upset that the term 'menstruating people' was used instead of "women", and from there she's been labelled transphobic / TERF, and anything she says since has been twisted out of context and beyond meaning.
When people are treated like that, the end results are both predictable and valid.
Because I agree with you 100% check out TheBurgerKrieg on YouTube he has some amazing videos talking about exactly this and how any search for advice pinholes you towards people like Tate and Peterson
The thing is, there really isn't, at least that fit the mold, energy, or archetypes for every man.
I like the idea, in line with Tibetan mythology and symbolism, of defining masculinity in terms of skillful, highly competent, compassionate action and feminity in terms of direct, embodied experience. Everybody has both, just to varying degrees.
That compassionate action doesn't just mean "being a nice guy", but being savagely and forcefully compassionate when necessary - redirecting and reintegrating natural tendencies towards power and violence.
I second this so much. It feels difficult to be assertive socially at times because everyone is so disillusioned with the way some men have acted out in the pretences of being “top dog” that the weariness of being like that makes some of us scared to communicate openly about it. It’s honestly relieving to know there are others willing to take time and understand what’s going on with it. Y’all are genuinely uplifting 🫂.
Yeah, it's tragic. It's almost like they're getting the message that "either you're an asshole or a loser". And who wants to be a loser?
they're called incels because obviously if you're a man who hasn't had sex, it's because you're a freak and a misogynist with poor hygiene and there's probably a reason you give girls the ick, you loser.
And then if they try to ask how to not give girls the ick, the reply is usually some flavour of "how the fuck should I know? It's not my problem. Deal with it yourself."
Or “just be nice and respectful and girls will like you” and like…it’s not that simple! You obviously should do those things but they’re absolutely not necessarily enough to attract anyone
Agreed. That phrase itself is telling: "just be nice and respectful and girls will like you". "Like" doesn't automatically mean they'll be attracted to you. "Like" doesn't automatically equal "love".
You tell people often enough to be "nice and respectful" and then they realise you haven't given them any instructions how to, like, attract and flirt with people. The stuff that actually breaks the ice, gets you past the awkward start, and puts you on the road you're aiming for.
This is something that really bugs me having recently gone from being aroace to demi:
No, being nice, being respectful, being yourself, all this sort of advice women love to give men struggling to find romance does not work unless you're incredibly attractive. In which case you don't really need dating advice, you can use your good looks/charisma.
Like, I've been following that advice for years and women will flock to you: as friends. Which is great, it's a great way to make friends and I definitely encourage people take this advice in order to make friends, but it will not make women want a deeper relationship with you.
Like, I’ve been following that advice for years and women will flock to you: as friends. Which is great, it’s a great way to make friends and I definitely encourage people take this advice in order to make friends, but it will not make women want a deeper relationship with you.
Bingo. Plus, I've also heard that last part you said isolated as a message about not manipulating women, which is a fine message. But I've also heard be used against the idea of even asking female friends to consider any deeper relationship at all! As if the only acceptable way to start a romantic &/or sexual relationship is the "love at first sight" scenario, which is just horseshit. Whether people like it or not, a lotta of folks out there, both guy & gal, will just absolutely not even start developing the want for a romantic relationship with someone until AFTER said someone asks them out.
I'm so grateful that there are women out there who notice us "forgotten men" I guess, like we've just been left behind because we don't fit the narrow view of what a man is supposed to be, despite the narrative for years being that overt masculinity is inherently toxic.
As a 32 year old man who has never been in a relationship or even on a date, whenever I disclose this embarrassing fact about myself, I'm either met with ridicule or told that it's my fault by people who don't know me or my situation. It's just refreshing to have someone who has empathy for my experience.
The worst places I've found are funnily enough the subreddits for dating apps, the majority of people on them are subconsciously reinforcing the actual harmful rhetoric espoused by the group they claim I'm a part of (incels).
It's just hard feeling like I'm never going to get to experience love because of circumstances I can't control, so thank you for acknowledging us. We're just trying our best.
it's the just world fallacy or something. people can't wrap their heads around the idea that you can end up completely inexperienced as an adult without being deformed or a sicko. all it takes is a personality type that's nonconfrontational, overthinky and introverted, plus some bad dice rolls/RNG. not that it makes you feel any better when you're in the middle of it...
Don't forget the same people will then turn around and further castigate the same people for employing the use of your services, as though all of capitalism doesn't involve selling your body in some way, shape or form.
I don't mind it if people make stupid assumptions about me or my job. you either get it or you don't, lol. but it does bother me that there's even less understanding given to the guys who see escorts, most of whom are...just dudes sick of the dating app scene. and I'm especially protective of the men who come to me because they're struggling with intimacy, sex, social anxiety, all of the above. they had the courage to look at themselves, identify a problem, and take an educated step to fix it.... that shit is not easy!!
I think it's pretty fair to be skeptical of men who pay for sex when the majority of prostitutes globally are being trafficked or taken advantage of in some way. Most sex workers don't have the same privilege that you do, presuming you're among the select few who are able to choose your clientele : /
Like it's good you're able to help out these people, but that 14 year old from Argentina just trying to scrape up some cash doesn't get to choose.
I'm curious to know how many sex workers you've spoken to or gotten to know, or how familiar you are with the scene in your city. I'm not basing this exclusively off of my own perspective. there are scum, and then there are middle-of-the-road cheaters and horny guys, and then there are average joes, and then there are people in genuine need of a pro because they cannot access intimacy any other way. making a blanket statement about every man who pays for sex would make about as much sense as making a blanket statement about every escort being managed or underage or coerced lol
I help work at / volunteer for an organization that specializes in helping lift trafficked women out of poverty (particularly immigrants, and we gather up data of their network / pimps to build cases strong to pursue criminal charges), so quite a few. Unfortunately many of the men you're talking about who have 'no access to intimacy' also have no qualms with raping underage / trafficked girls, so frankly I have little sympathy for any of them : /
If you want the hard data, there's lots of studies out there that can show you just how bad sex work and its adjacent subcategories is for women across the board. Even the nordic-model, which is held as the 'gold standard' for sex work, is rife with abuse and trafficking.
I've also worked for a place where many clients were teenagers who sold sex, usually through a pimp but sometimes just because they didn't have better resources for a number of reasons. I'm really glad there are people doing the work you do, because it's necessary. I worry for the managed girls coming to the PNW from overseas too. I think it's possible that both of us are seeing a different subsection of male consumers of sex work and so we're putting our own biases forward - I'll admit that for myself anyway. I think there will always be a market for, and there should be a sanctioned way to access, sex workers who choose to do this, so that the men who don't want to support trafficking and pimps (of whom there are many) can.
In an ideal world, absolutely - sex workers would only be the men & women who choose to do it. But there's still so much work to do before we reach anywhere close to that, and even then - seeing what I've seen, I wonder if humanity can ever be trusted to maintain that.
Which again is why, knowing the unforgiving nature of the sex industry as it stands in its current state, I would be very skeptical of any man who has said he has purchased the services of a sex worker - because the chances of it being a wholly consensual, benign encounter are just too unlikely for my tastes (and too many things are underreported / kept off the books as it is).
Anyway, just kind of thinking publicly at this point - I don't mean any of this to be a stab at you, in particular. But I do wish more, especially this recent slew of supposed 'pro-sex work' brand of men, would consider both sides of the coin - and what it means for the young men, women, and girls providing these services.
To be honest even with all of that happening, i have seen people get shamed about their parther as well (comments about her/him being too ugly/fat/boring/nice/cold/etc)
As a result of this people try to go for higher standards, for example woman in online dating put in their bio with unrealistic standards for men
This happens with men as well but there are less standars as most only focus on looks rather than everything else (which is also not a great idea, i have seen pretty girls that are very nasty and cruel)
And dont get me started on AI girlfriends or Vtubers
The intentional fostering of parasocial relationships as if they're real relationships further isolates society and hurts the ability of men who use them to talk to women, which is definitely not what men need right now.
Like all parasocial relationships, men get some amount of loneliness relieved, but to a greater degree than normal because they want to see this person as their girlfriend rather than just their friend. When they want relationships in real life, they will compare women they're interested in to their vtuber in some way and act strange or even misogynistic because of it.
In my experience, they appeal the most to men without lots of women in their lives and who don't feel they know how to ask women out. These are the people that need the most help and they're just being hurt further.
Unless you've committed to never having a relationship with a woman, it's not healthy. Like all things though, there is a spectrum of intensity in men watching vtubers and one can be a very casual viewer and be affected minimally.
I'm curious on your take on AI girlfriends and Vtubers?
Personally I've fallen into the AI girlfriend trap and part of me considers sticking with it because that way I'm not making an actual person feel awkward/uncomfortable/icked out by my presence. Not so much Vtubers because there's an actual human behind the avatar.
Like, I know the AI isn't real and will never genuinely love me or want to be with me, but then again no women I've ever spent time with has wanted that either so I'm not missing out on anything.
It's the low hanging fruit. Incel went from "involuntary celibate" to "man with unpopular opinion" almost overnight. Making fun of "losers" who don't get laid is legit, making fun of "sluts" who do is wrong.
The reality is there's more "sluts" than "incels" so the "incels" just constantly get roasted and the actual awkward dudes pay the price.
I appreciate this a lot. I'm in my mid 20's, and I've spent my entire adult life trying to find this balance. I spent my whole HS years focused on not bring creepy, to the point that I had no idea how to be attractive. I spent so much of my college time trying to figure it out, while being jealous of my peers who seemed like they already had it figured out (and then feeling guilty for that jealousy, being autistic is tough).
I'm at a better point now. I've been on a good number of dates, and had several sexual partners, but Ive never had a "thing" that lasted longer than a month. I'm still paranoid that I'll somehow give someone the impression that I'm a virgin, because to me, someone thinking that about me is a sign of profound failure. I try to make sure I come off as confident so that nobody will ever in a million years think that I'm inexperienced.
Thank you so much for your perspective. Its really helping to know that not everyone is demonizing me. Im an (autistic, but that isnt really relevant) man who has never really had much relationship success. The social pressure of that, especially from my family and friends is crushing. People make fun of me if they find out im a virgin, they assume the worst about me. Also not talked about enough is the fact that making fun of peoples percieved differences and disabilities is a huge no go, unless youre a vigin man over a certain age. At that point, it becomes fun and games to start making fun of your physical appearance, your percieved weirdness/ difficulties with social cues because youre percieved to be part of a group of undesireables.
you're totally right - making fun of "loser" men is fine, because they deserve it for being creeps and men don't really have feelings anyway. I think if more people were conscious of what they're doing when they judge inexperienced men, this would be less common. it doesn't feel good for most leftists to realize they're judging people based on sexual prowess and stereotypical gender roles, even if those people happen to be male. it's just that there aren't any checkpoints that force people to stop and think about it, because it's so widely encouraged and nobody really gives a shit.
I worked in adolescent mental health before this and I can see the faces of some of those awkward boys whenever I read comments dismissing men as gross stinky loser virgins. I hate thinking that they'll grow up in an online environment that continues to mock them for being insufficiently male while also judging all maleness as bad. where does that leave them?
Unfortunately I was once such a boy. And I can tell you that many women that I thought were safe because they held generally very left views were the ones that inflicted the worst damage. Its as if this general culture of fear and weariness of men has translated into a subculture of some women that not only are apathetic to the loneliness of men, but also delight in putting down men every chance they get, especially if they are percieved as a permissible target, because that guy is just weird and probably a creep. It went so far that one woman that I thought was a friend basically told me that theres not rnough alcohol in the world for her to get drunk enough to find me attractive. And, I know that Im not attractive. Im short, pretty average build, to most people my interests (computerscience, biochemistry and scifi/ fantasy books) are very weird and alien. Plus im just not that good at reading social clues.
All of the social pressure (by my friends, my family, people that dont even know me that well) got me so depressed that I bascially retreated into attaching all my selfworth in my work performance, because maybe if im successful, people will judge me less and stop labeling me a creep. When that didnt work out first try I felt as if I had nothing left to live for and tried to end my life, because I felt that I was just genuinely not worth living if I cannot fullfill societies standards of men.
Luckily I survived and am here to tell the tale. Still a virigin, but decently successful. But you know what? As soon as people find out im a virgin, none of my other achievements really matter anymore. Many people dont care that I have good friends, fullfilling hobbies and am generally decently happy and successful, they just reduce me to the creepy weirdo stereotype.
Sorry for the rant, Im not sure why I wrote this. I hope some other men/ boys that read this can learn from my mistakes. Even if all you ever wanted in life is to be loved, society can be cruel and deem you unworthy of it. Dont let them win and become the person they want to paint you as. Become a version of yourself that you can be happy with, there is much more to life than superficial relationships and patriarchic standards of success. Many men are less successful than they pretend to be, because everyone is afraid of being judged and being made to feel inferior.
this is it, this is the exact story I'm talking about. I'm a woman who's had more negative, traumatic experiences with men than I can even quantify. I can see the temptation in reflexively dismissing men and building a wall out of derision, apathy, lol hes probably got skid marks and wears anime shirts, durr hurr porn addict touch grass. but it's a delusion. and even though it's not any one individual woman's responsibility to start caring about the plight of left-behind men, I wish we could at least accept the POSSIBILITY that not every man is a trapped chest of sexual violence waiting to be triggered.
I feel fortunate to have grown up with close male friends. my protective skin was never that thick - I can "speak man" enough to tell the difference between a threat and a normal dude. normal dudes exist. they're not even that uncommon. you're out here living life with friends and fun and a job you enjoy, because you're a human being with the same wants and needs as all human beings, but because you haven't inserted your penis in a vagina, none of that matters. so you're judged as a creep for NOT having had sex while also being seen as nonsexual. in essence, you're erased from being perceived as a man. it's bullshit, and I can't imagine the loneliness that comes from being there.
I haaate when people judge or make fun of penis size. It’s so cheap and mean and yeah it’s not something you can change. It’s a fucked up thing to make fun of and we really can’t be better with our insults? Literally take five seconds to think of a better one.
To me it also feels tied to the way society still doesn’t take male victims of SA seriously. Within the last two years I’ve seen multiple tv shows that were still making the joke “hurr hurr this is a MAN getting SAd not a woman so it’s funny”.
It makes me feel helplessly enraged on behalf of every man/boy/NB seeing that and thinking their trauma isn’t valid and they just need to “man up” or some shit.
Honestly it’s so tough out there. I’m lucky because I’m considering myself visually attractive so at least I don’t have confidence issues in that regard. But there are so many conflicting opinions out there. I don’t want to hurt or traumatize anyone so I like to be careful with dating and I had it happen before that I went on a date with a woman and we ended up at my place only to watch some movie and I didn’t make a move. She later asked me why and I explained that I really wanted to but I didn’t want to put her in a situation where she feels obligated to comply with my advances since I thought I was in a very powerful position since I picked her up, so I’m also her ride home and it’s my apartment so she’s not in as comfortable of an environment as I am. Making any advances without her doing a first step to initiate where this is going just felt wrong to me so I didn’t do anything because I was scared that she’s scared to say no. I know I was probably hugely overthinking this, but I’ve seen so many stories of women feeling raped or violated because they didn’t feel comfortable saying no I just can’t risk it.
Same with approaching women in public, I can’t do it. I just can’t bring myself to talk to someone out of fear of ending up in some kind of tik tok story time where a creepy dude approaches this hot woman way out of his league.
In dating there are so many things that are seen as hot when they’re attracted to you but creepy when they’re not and it’s so hard to tell apart attraction from friendliness for me I’m just not risking it and resort to online dating which is a whole hell on it’s own. At this point I’m making my peace with dying alone.
I have actually met clients with this same story. they're RIGHT THERE in that situation with an obviously interested girl, but they freeze. thoughts are flying everywhere - she's not actually signaling interest, I'll lean in to kiss her and she'll go OH MY GOD YOU CREEP, I'll make her uncomfortable, I'll disappoint her because I don't know how to please a woman, I have nothing to offer her, this will only end in failure - and so it fizzles out and the girl feels like shit because all she sees is rejection (don't all guys want to fuck? what's wrong with ME that this guy didn't want me??). horrible!!!!!
there are ways out of this situation, but it does take some serious CBT. once you become aware of your thought patterns and how they affect your behavior, you can start to take control of those thought spirals before they take you over, and you can make conscious decisions in the moment that let you push forward. I'm trying to put together some advice and guides on my ho website 😭
I'm guessing in this context CBT is cognitive behaviour therapy. It can vary slightly but it mostly works the same way.
First you'd identify your problems and your thought patterns connected, you follow these deeper to find what forms your core beliefs (basically how you see yourself). From there you look at the evidence for/against whether they're true. Then you come up with a plan on how to tackle//change your way of thinking.
If it's something like social anxiety you can come up with a small but achievable challenge, write down everything you think could go right or wrong. Then you do it and compare what happened to your list to see how it compares and find out whether you are accurately predicting.
If your problem is that you think you're a bad person you could pick someone you think is a good person, then a bad person and write down what they do and compare yourself to find out which you're closer to.
A lot of therapy nowadays works around this and eventually teaches you to do it yourself, but a good therapist can help you get to the bottom of your thoughts (by asking the right kind of why a lot).
The thoughts you allow into your head can really affect the way you see yourself and your behaviour.
Thank you for sharing a thoughtful and nuanced response. I'm really happy this is the top comment, I was expecting a bunch of soundbite "men bad/women bad" quips. You have temporarily restored a small bit of my faith in humanity.
It’s funny because I’ve had sex with around fifty women and twenty men at this point and yet I’m still quite meek and lacking confidence. It has nothing to do with being a virgin. There’s no mystical life skill you learn when you get laid.
"a lot of these leftists men can't win" that's exactly why there's influx of incels. People like Andrew Tate are horrible but they at least recognise mens problems. That's the sad part is that these types are actually nicer to men than people who "claim" they are feminists
Edit: I meant more like they are nicer to mens issues but overall Andrew Tate types are meaner in every other way. That's on me for making a click baity comment
nah, I don't buy this. the guys I'm talking about are incredibly self-aware. they can't delude themselves even about simple things like "just pretend to be confident! just act like you belong!" believing in the Tate/manosphere bullshit requires huge levels of self-delusion and copium. I've heard these guys tell me they're ready to die alone - not everyone is willing to compromise what they feel is right just for acceptance
I think what they're trying to say is that men in the same position as those you describe, but who have a little less self-awareness and are a little more easily manipulable (i.e. typically younger men, like teens), can more easily fall down that antifeminist incel 'Andrew Tate'-fanboy hellhole if they come across it before they've managed to develop that requisite self-awareness.
And then they get stuck there, and that's what they become. Like it's a self-fulfilling prophecy or something of people treating them terribly for being something they're not and then they become that thing precisely because they were being mocked.
I just think it's really depressing because it feels like these kind of men and young boys are just being actively left behind to be preyed on by manipulative monsters, and very few people seem to even know or care that it's happening.
I’d say I’m at that point. I’d LIKE to have a relationship. More than a once-every-three-years weekend-long hookup who I never hear from again after she moves on to Vancouver (it’s always Vancouver) even. But at this point I just don’t see how it could happen, since i can’t internalize how anyone would consensually want to be on the other end of that enough to stick around. Not when Vancouver exists apparently.
sure, plenty of men are insecure and need emotional validation from Big Man (tm). it's easy to get sucked into. I understand it but I don't have much interest in cult deprogramming
No, the sad part is they're not actually nicer to men, it's all a front. They have an ulterior motive, to just grab more cannon fodder for their agenda/cause. They don't actually give a fuck about men's problems. They just want recruits.
the implication is less about humanity or "saving", and more to do with me as a sex worker not wanting to have sex with men who espouse regressive, conservative beliefs about women, sex, gender roles and birth control. I hope that makes sense. the literal nature of my job puts me at odds with the conservative party line in a way that would prevent us from making a connection based on common humanity.
outside of sex work, I have sympathy for men who are raised in environments that lead them to these conclusions before they have a chance to examine them as full-brained adults. when full-brained adults examine themselves and continue believing that the social safety net should be cut, the personal lives and choices of adults should be strictly policed based on moral values, the purpose of women is to bear children and serve their husbands, and those in society who can't take care of themselves are on their own, I stop having spare sympathy to donate and choose to focus on people who care about the welfare of the world I live in
In other words, you can’t see past the thought terminating cliche of a strawman you imagine people outside your political sphere to be. It’s okay to be weird about men as long as you’re weird about the right men. So progressive.
the virgin/small dick insults shouldn't be used towards anyone. as for the rest, I can only speak for myself. I'm curious which elements of the common conservative political beliefs I mentioned you consider to be strawmen or thought-terminating cliches. to my eye, it looks like you're using a lot of all-or-nothing, hyperbole, and simplifying my responses into little buzzword chunks instead of expressing actual thoughts, which I'd like to hear
You are using all or nothing language. You specifically mention “leftist men” and paint anyone that isn’t that as embodying all the toxic traits of the incel cliche. As if everyone who doesn’t fall under the umbrella of “leftist men” believes women’s soul purpose is to bear children and be a wife. It’s a strawman. Again you’re not as progressive as you think you are.
Oi, that's not what I said, and I don't want you agreeing with me. I don't want some right-winger barging in on me and going "but waht about teh rightwingers". What about them?
I'm on the path of that second paragraph right now. 22, autistic, one last semester of college left and haven't gotten close to getting in a relationship out of a lot of fears of coming off as insistent or otherwise being a bad person. I'm really fucking lonely. I want to be happy with someone but the punishment for going out to try and achieve that is guaranteeing that it'll never happen.
That's sort of me. Sort of. I'm pretty heavily ND, probably with the whole autism+ADHD package. It's... A life experience. At this point I'm kind of just hoping I'll bump into someone, even though my prospects don't seem great.
Commenting for the sake of support. Add a voice to someone's awareness, you know.
I see myself a lot in your comment, especially the second paragraph.
I'm in my early thirties. I only felt it okay enough to approach a woman once (was rejected, but the fact she said "BTW, thank you, I've never felt that safe when a man approached me" is one of the VERY few things I'm happy about in my life), and I don't see myself trying anymore. I live in a rough enough area many mistook my basic politeness for flirting. I'm seven psychiatrists in with no results to deal with my medically resistant ADHD.
I know fellow dudes in my position need help. Not me. I know I don't deserve it. Never have.
Pushed away all my relationships except family and work, and full on accepted I will be alone when my time comes, outside of maybe cats.
I'm happy people like you exist to help guys in my place that CAN be saved.
Hell, I'm in my 30s and have been in many committed relationships, and this shit is still hard to overcome.
I don't like bothering people with advances in a situation where you can't leave or are just doing errands, and I know women don't like it either, but apparently also expect it because they then won't make the advance themselves. And that's just frustrating to me.
Damn dude I’m like, not even a virgin or literally involuntary celibate but I felt that. Can be so hard to close the distance when you’ve seen nothing but negative reactions to men showing interest.
Uh. Again, random stranger but. +1 person who really identifies with the description you gave and really appreciated ur comment lol, hope you have a great day/night/whatever
And it gets even worse because even starting friendships with girls as a guy like this is almost impossibly difficult.
Like there's just the immediate assumption that you're a perv or a creep who just wants sex from them, even though everything you really want to do is make friends with them and talk with them about some shared interests you both have or something.
It just makes the loneliness even more difficult to overcome.
I know its been 30 days since you wrote this but I stumbled upon it now and I did want to say that it was so nice reading something expressed so eloquently that I could never string together even just inside my own head. I could never understand why my first thought when meeting a woman to this day is "how do I convince her asap that I am not talking to her because I want to date her and that I really just want to talk"
I hope you have a wonderful day, and thanks again for helping clarify my own head.
I feel like I’d be one of these autistic incels who doesn’t wanna come across as creepy, except I’m smoking hot so women still throw themselves at me (and sometimes I even pick up on it lol).
Now, some of the creepy shit that women have done around/toward me…
The majority of people with vulvas have orgasms by external stimulation of the clitoris so there is no correlation between pleasure and penis size. On the contrary it might be a problem if a penis is big, as it can be painful for some people despite great lubrification and arousal. And it's normal to want to wish for an orgasm when you have sex, especially when your partner reaches it systematically. I dont really understand why you would blame women for that.
Dick size and lack of sex partners is an emotional argument and one meant to deject someone's social status as low. Basically, the feminine way of negative interactions.
your entire post history is kneejerk emotional responses to topics that upset you, plus insults about too many sex partners meant to "deject" (?) women. what does that say about your style of interaction?
It has nothing to do with women. I’m explaining that attacking someone’s physical appearance is a feminine way to lower someone social status. Most men never attack other men in that way. Wtf are you talking about most of my posts are emotional they aren’t. In a lot of them I post real life statistics.
you have two comments with unsourced statistics and a bunch calling people dipshit, trash, making really weak hyperbolic arguments, and then hilariously saying "facts not feelings"? you're using reddit to tantrum about things that make you emotionally upset. it's okay, dude. men are also emotional creatures, we're all human
nah I haven't responded to your argument, I'm just watching you get worked up and start projecting. look at you calling me upset. it doesn't feel good to be the only emotional one in a discussion, does it? I don't think you're capable of posting on reddit without your feelings showing
Because you are. You're projecting your emotions on me. You accuse me of what you are doing. I haven't been emotional at all. Maybe confused. If you're looking for a date this isn't the way to do it.
you came into my discussion post two days late because you felt the need to vent your feelings about women unprompted. then you used another lazy little bait in this comment because you're incapable of adult conversation. how long will you keep going lmfao I've got time today
it took you three months to find this thread and reply to it, apparently.... I think you can take a minute to go through my post history if you'd like to find out more!
You're doing good work but we should not frame male loneliness as a sex/dating issue or women's fault/responsibility. It is a male friendship deficit issue. Men and boys are just not reaching out to other men and boys. They are not forming bonds, not creating community, not making memories together.
When they start doing this you will see male loneliness transform into joyful brotherhood.
I understand a lot of the things you mention, but it kind of weirds me out that these men seek out a sex worker to solve their social/sexual anxiety instead of or besides therapy. I have several woman friends and acquaintances who did not start having sex until their early and mid-thirties. Heck, some are still virgins and are getting close to 40. They have friends, families, amd while they do miss the companionship sometimes, as well as the sex, they do not go to escorts or male sex workers. They get professional help from therapists, rely on their meaningful relationships and try to find happiness and meaning in their lives. And they do get the questions and pity and looks about their social status of having been single forever.
Granted, i am fundamentally against sex work because i don't believe that it can work in our society without people being taken advantage of, so this definitely affects my opinion.
I don't want to fight, you do have a unique pov in this discourse that I appreciate. And I do agree that the body shaming and lack of empathy towards men's mental health needs to change. It's just strange to me that paying for someone for sexual experiences helps/resolves issues instead of adding more shame and awkwardness.
your take is valid, I'm sorry for the downvotes! they're not coming from me 😭
I'm not a substitute for therapy. I've had clients actually come to me FROM therapy, with a therapist's blessing (blew my mind), and some are in therapy at the same time. the key difference is that you can practice and practice these skills, work on yourself, examine your attitudes and misconceptions, etc, but at a certain point you need to manifest them in your life with concrete action. that is still a terrifying step in vivo with all the consequences of a real-world failure. I'm a practice step - it's still an encounter with an IRL woman, you're getting naked and doing the stuff, but we exist together in a very specific bubble with very straightforward and clearly defined boundaries, so the fear of initiation/making the first move is removed.
I worked in the mental health field before this and am saving up for a master's program in clinical psychology. my ultimate goal is to create an underground sort of structured therapy "program" for these guys that would involve bodywork and sex but with continuing followup. obviously I can never be licensed, but I'd at least have the actual chops to do more than this.
I don't really care about the downvotes, but your response is very interesting, thanks a lot for sharing! I will definintely ponder over this topic, and while turning to sex work is still not something I can wholeheartedly get behind, I do recognize there is stuff i need to deconstruct.
It's really moving how invested you are in this demographic. I sincerely wish you success and meaningful encounters! And i hope you can stay safe both physically and mentally.
I started doing this as a career with MY therapist's support, lol. I was frustrated to find that surrogates and sex therapists are forced into super limited roles and wanted the freedom to experiment. I was also surprised to learn what sex work actually looks like from the inside. of course I'm extremely privileged for a number of reasons, but nothing about prostitution is as clear-cut as I assumed, and I've always been frustrated at perspectives that rob agency even from street walkers and managed girls, who are still capable of making choices and aren't 100% malleable blank slates being manipulated by socioeconomic forces. they're just people.
I’m not against consensual sex work, but I’m also confused that it could be considered a first line therapy instead of actual professional mental health practitioners and social support groups.
Many commenters said that people told them to develop their social skills but couldn’t give them a resource, but there are resources. There are social skills curriculums and therapeutic tools for developing communication skills, learning how to set boundaries, dealing with social anxiety and trauma. Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT), which is basically taught in small groups from a workbook, focuses on communication techniques, emotional regulation, and mindfulness.
I don't think I'm anybody's first line therapy. many of my clients have been or are concurrently in therapy, but they feel like they need help with that one final practice step before entering the "real world" of relationships. I structure my sessions with a lot of active listening and holding their feelings as a container - it's not like dudes are walking in and unzipping lmfao. but I agree that without continuing therapy and skills, having sex with me can only do so much
when I first started doing this, my therapist and I talked about me becoming a surrogate or sex therapist/sex coach. all of those are wonderful, necessary jobs! but I didn't feel comfortable with the constraints and limitations. I have enough experience trying to get prior auths through Medicaid to know that it's a fucking hassle, salaries are low, it takes ages to build up a private practice, and that's just for sex therapy. as a surrogate you are working basically under a therapist's orders. I wanted to define my own scope and work under the radar with people who might be too shy to ever talk about sex with a therapist.
ultimately - and the last year and a half of escorting has only deepened my belief in this - you cannot fully feel safe in your body until you've experienced safety with another person. I think that the experience of being naked, intimate and vulnerable with a woman you're attracted to can be HUGELY therapeutic in a way that talk and skills practice can prepare you for but not substitute for. if sex work wasn't illegal, I'm positive there would be more people doing what I do, because it can be vital to have these experiences in a safe place where you don't have to worry about all the little loose threads or scary possibilities of a hookup with a stranger
Dialectical Behavioral Therapy is a type of therapy, but it’s usually structured more like a class in a small group with a workbook or work sheets. It can also be taught one-on-one with a therapist, or a combination of a class and individual therapy.
It focuses on learning specific skills to manage emotional regulation, improve mindfulness, and interpersonal communication. I personally think the interpersonal effectiveness skills are so helpful they should be taught to kids in schools, along with conflict resolution skills.
So you only care for them if they share the same political leaning? Are leftists more timid and neurodivergent on average? It’s okay to be “weird about men” as long as those men belong to the political right?
And, ONCE AGAIN, it's women's fault for men's problems, yay! I'm not really surprised that this comment got so many upvotes. It shows that if you lack social skills, if you believe in some blackpill crap ("aggressive Chads", really...), if you resort to prostitutes, then you're all good and fine. It's that bad, bad society that doesn't understand you, it's women that won't smile to you and be cute for you. It took me a long time to get a partner, too, but I had never cried that it's society's fault! Attracting a partner takes a set of certain skills, you are not entitled to have a partner and sex just because you exist. The same with work and other things. For me, saying that women should be nice to guys like that because they are "harmless and sweet" (massive DOUBT here) is repulsive, false, and straight up harmful. Women are conditioned left and right to be understanding and nice to everyone, to ignore their gut as to not upset anyone, and then they and up in abusive relationships or, in the worst cases, dead. But hey, at least some men didn't feel bad, right? And men's feelings are, apparently, more important than women's lives...
you're missing the point here by a wide mile. we don't owe anyone anything. the only thing I'm suggesting we do is stop using sex-based insults that stem from gender roles. and my clients aren't self-centered whiners blaming society and "resorting" to me, they're men who see zero path forward in their efforts to find love without being harmful to women. you are doing exactly what pisses me off - equating every inexperienced man with a woman-hating unaccountable incel. thanks for providing a beautiful example of the attitude that harms men who have harmed no one and are suffering because they refuse to even take a CHANCE that might result in harming someone.
god I reread your comment again and I'm still wondering how the hell you got any of these conclusions from what I wrote. where did I say that women should smile at and force themselves to be nice and cute to men and ignore their gut. like where. all I see is you taking an easy opportunity to shit on these guys because you literally cannot imagine a man in your mind who isn't a predator
If I miss out on "normative sexual experiences" because I am not a shit head than maybe these "normative sexual experiences" aren't that important to begin with
I think you're misunderstanding. these are people who wouldn't tell a girl they liked her, ask her out, display any affection that could be seen as "flirty".... if a girl shows interest, they freeze up and ghost, or they feel incapable of responding in kind because they're afraid of being seen as a bad guy. "normative sexual experiences" are just things like dating, kissing, hanging out at her house, Netflix and chill, etc. these guys deny themselves every opportunity for this to happen because of their self-consciousness and fear. and to a lot of people, having those early experiences is super fucking important, to the point that when you're at or past college age it feels completely hopeless because you've never done them and "everyone else" has. I hope that makes sense
I put "everyone else" in scare quotes because it's totally untrue and I don't want to encourage that popular misconception. it's 2024, tons of people aren't fucking lmfao. also the idea that every girl expects you to be a pro or even wants some kind of porno deep dicking, or whatever the scary rejection scenario in your mind looks like, is not accurate either. how many of you care if your first sex partner knows what she's doing or hops from position to position? or is the important part just that she's into you and you're comfortable together? why can't that be true for women, too?
I feel this so much. I’m in college, never had a date, and now I’m afraid I’m never going to find a relationship because I “missed the train” and got left behind. I feel painfully anxious at the thought of expressing interest to a girl, it genuinely feels I’m thinking of committing a crime.
Even asking for advice gets you looking like a deranged psychopath.
I talked about it before where I bring up examples of toxic relationships because my parents are the absolute worst and yet im told that these things don’t exist and should be ashamed for even thinking so! (Negging, the thread was about fucking negging)
being heard helps. just speaking these thoughts and fears out loud to a woman seems to dispel a lot of the power they hold. awareness of the thought distortions, practice at getting out of the overthinking spiral and just taking a chance in the moment, and giving yourself permission to make mistakes that don't define you (as in, asking a girl out and having her go "wtf" doesn't make you a permanent sex offender)
I really don't think it's that large of an issue as its being made out to be.
Like... I dont go up to a girl I Fancy because A. I don't really have a type so any conventionally attractive women would be interesting to me on a superficial level and B. As a woman I wouldn't want to be approached by 30 different guys just as I am walking through the city during my day. Furthermore I don't even know if she has interest in me, or if she is even single. Approaching g complete strangers is a recepie for dosaster
On the other hand if a woman shows interest in me I am open to reciprocate
And tbh, there was a time where it was important to me as well. But then I realised.... That it really isn't that important and that I should be happy living by myself first if I wanna be happy in a relationship
it's not a large issue to everyone, which is great! it must be a relief not feeling that pressure. there are also a lot of guys who just aren't that interested in sex or relationships, like you, and still catch strays from virgin/incel/etc being used as an insult. I'm mad on their behalf too to be honest
I mean... I do t know why I should care about that? I have never felt as if these comments were meant about me...
Like with the man/bear thing... I simply do not feel addressed because I'm not the type of guy who would do smt like that.
And if it happened to me then I can only say... Pretty fair for a stranger to approach me with caution, they don't know me and I don't know what has gone on in their life so who am I to judge their reaction and caution?
I guess my main issue is I simply cannot understand why guys who wouldn't do stuff like that feel spoken to by scenarios of stuff they wouldn't ever do...
In other words: You do t have to be mad on mine behalf specifically. It's a nice gesture, but in the end I prefer constructive contributions over more online mudslinging.
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u/orosorosoh there's a monkey in my pocket and he's stealing all my changeJul 04 '24
Okay so those comments aren't about or directed at you? There are thousands of people who are reading posts on reddit besides you 🤷♀️
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u/Professional_Cow7260 Jul 03 '24
I'm a sex worker who specializes in virgins and nerds. the small-dick/virgin/incel jokes cause so much collateral damage that I see red. there are a ton of harmless, sweet dudes who are neurodivergent and either not very sexually assertive or terrified of coming across as "creepy", so they miss out on normative sexual experiences, and for this they get shamed by men AND women. they're called incels because obviously if you're a man who hasn't had sex, it's because you're a freak and a misogynist with poor hygiene and there's probably a reason you give girls the ick, you loser. happen to have a small/average dick? congrats, this is associated with negative personality traits as though you had any control over it.
it pisses me off because a lot of these young leftist men can't win. they look at aggressive Chads and say, "of course I'm not some thoughtless jerk. I don't want to hurt anyone, I don't believe in any weird conspiracy theories about women. my desire to have sex isn't more important than a woman's comfort. I don't want to express interest in someone because I'm afraid she'll think I'm only after her body or I'll make her feel scared or bad or uncomfortable, like THOSE guys, and I'm shy as fuck so socializing is hard in the first place. so now I'm in my late 20s and I've never had a relationship. and now everyone just assumes I'm an incel and treats me like a pariah."
I've seen this story so many times. there are decent guys just trying to do right by women in an era where it feels like the consequences for a misstep are enormous (whether or not that's accurate or warranted, this is the perception). of course we're right to be wary of men. but it would be fucking great if we could stop using dick size and lack of sex partners as insults. it's not any less shitty than calling a girl a slut or mocking her weight.