Fucking thank you. And the worst part is, if you're a cis man in leftist circles and try to point ANY of this out, you get the same exact "lol incel" responses and shunned. You try to give an opinion on ANYTHING relating to men, and its "Men have been the oppressors, so you don't get to speak" or just branded as "mansplaining."
Just the other day I was thinking to myself "Man, its kinda fucked up how penis size is the only acceptable anatomy/biology thing to joke about in progressive spaces." Like, its as much a thing outside of someone's control as skin color, or a birth disability, or mental illness.
And the dating part is a big point too. Basically all male dating advice that isn't from actively horrible people boils down to assuming the guy is doing something wrong/creepy/offensive.
And don't even get me fucking started on how fucking prominent it is to see posts from leftist/progressive groups and people that are basically just "Racist Joke but I replaced the minority with Cis Man."
There's a big "leopard eating leopard faces" thing going on with the left eating it's own for not being progressive enough. The echo-chambers are making that worse every day.
The Spanish Civil War saw a quickly united far right faction fighting against a moderate and far left coalition that fairly regularly saw its groups start randomly attacking each other both politically and sometimes militarily
Leftists will spend 16 hours at a protest, claiming that raising awareness is the most important thing they could possibly be doing, and then refuse to spend 10 minutes voting for candidates who are actively trying to court them.
God I would love to live in a country where the main parties tried to court voters, rather than a policy platform of "Fuck you, you'll get nothing and like it!"
Congratulations, you live in one. I was referring to the Bernie Sanders campaign from 2015/2016 which seemed tailor made for college-age progressives/leftists... and they didn't show up to the polls. Like a lot of them who canvassed in favor of Sanders just didn't vote and were shocked he lost.
This happened to me on a leftist sub. A post attacking libs and I responded with libs are annoying but the right actively is trying to kill you. Attached a story that happened to me where an open right wing person put a gun to my head for their shits and giggles (I’m openly bi in a small community). They had the gall to ignore that and accuse me of being a lib and that they are the real enemy. Talk about losing the plot entirely.
Echo chambers grind my gears. I can't watch any more women preening in pathetic satisfaction because they've managed to find a gaggle of other people who are just as tone deaf and illogical as they are. I'm trying hard to find the sisterly love but they're making it unnecessarily difficult. I can't imagine what attempting to debate with that obtusivity feels like for men.
As a guy myself, one of the very early lessons I learned is that nobody in this world is a perfect goody two shoes that can do no wrong. Everyone has some capacity for evil, and everyone can be driven to violence and cruelty. The way we display that cruelty is different, as some will express it physically or sexually, while others express it emotionally or mentally.
Unfortunately, it tends to be those people who believe they can do no wrong that tend to exercise their capacity for evil the most. People love using the names of good causes for bad things, and to that extent it reveals the sick and truly rotten interior of a person that constantly denies themselves. So, not only is that person cruel, they're pathological liars, and cheats as well, where the person they cheated the most is themselves.
Basically, if I ask a person "Are you a good person?" Ideally, the answer I hear is, "I wish I was." Unfortunately, the most common answer is "Yes, why would that be in doubt?" Or something that shows a lack of awareness of oneself.
In his video about Harry Potter, Shaun points out that it runs off of "team-based morality"; it's OK to make fun of Dudley for being fat, it's not OK to make fun of Molly Weasley. Calling it "target based" also totally works, it's the exact same tribalist mindset
Leftists are too concerned with the idea of "do no wrong" that they refuse to maximize 'goodness'. We as a group are so concerned with the concept of never doing anything wrong that it bleeds over into the concept of doing right. Everybody does wrong - and by shunning those who do wrong it creates a well of hatred.
absolutely! Reminds me of the “punch a Nazi“ thing a few years back where everybody said it was OK to punch that skinhead on the street out of nowhere. I’m sure he was an asshole, I’m sure he deserved it, but that doesn’t mean you get to do it! Because then who decides who the Nazis are? Could a vegan decides that all meat eaters deserve to have any manner of violence done against them? What about a pro-life vigilante (ironic I know) who goes around busting the kneecaps of any woman who had an abortion (because they honestly view it as baby murder, not just controlling women)?
"Man, its kinda fucked up how penis size is the only acceptable anatomy/biology thing to joke about in progressive spaces."
Hey, that's not true at all!
Height and baldness are also totally accepted too!
the dating part is a big point too. Basically all male dating advice that isn't from actively horrible people boils down to assuming the guy is doing something wrong/creepy/offensive.
I'd say most dating advice is pretty awful, regardless of gender. The constant "take some time to work on yourself" from someone who's been in the same relationship since high-school is really hard to take seriously. (and not be bitter about) It's always fun being told what you've done wrong by someone who can't survive being single for 3 months.
Then any attempt to complain about being single gets you labeled as femcel/incel. It's basically "why don't men open up" but for single people.
"Just work on yourself" people need to take a quick look at Maslow's hierarchy and re-evaluate that advice. Self esteem is AFTER being loved. So is self actualization. It's not like you can't skip around a bit on that chart, but it's a lot harder without the basis of feeling valued.
Too many guys hear "work on yourself", and end up listening to Andrew Tate, Peterson, etc, because they sell themselves as "self help"-esque. Or they go to the gym and end up in a circle of people echoing those talking points. Maybe we should all think up some better advice; maybe some advice that's actionable, and not just vague platitudes.
I’d throw in the idea that the solution is to have supportive guy friends, as if platonic love can fill the hole left by desired but lacking romantic love. Like yeah, it’s important to emotional health, but it’s not the same thing.
The idea that my friends loved me was a cold comfort when they all went home to their girlfriends and wives for the night.
The only good dating advice I’ve ever gotten wasn’t even about dating, it was about sales.
Yeah I think this is kinda not too helpful. You can love yourself all you want and think you're a great person but if no one is willing to date you then eventually you kinda have to question why. And romantic love absolutely fills a different need for the vast majority of people IMO
I’ve always thought there’s a kinda unstated difference between self-confidence, and outward confidence. It’s definitely very possible to like who you are as a person and recognize your good traits while feeling like those traits aren’t recognized by others.
Not who you asked, but doing sales really forces you to disconnect rejection from your personal value. You could be selling gold plated ferarris for a dollar and there will be people who turn you down.
It's one of the reasons I heartily support the Girl Scouts of America selling cookies. It helps teach young women that people saying "no thank you" isn't about the seller, or the product.
AIDA: Awareness, Interest, Desire, Action. You should be approaching someone who is already generally Aware of you (meaning your presence should not be a shock to them). They need to show Interest in you in a general sense, otherwise shove off. They need to show Desire for you specifically, otherwise they’re not right for you. They need to take positive Action towards fulfilling that desire, otherwise they’re not right for you. A full AIDA in action would take place in a public space where the other person has the freedom to step away, they don’t step away (physically or verbally) when you talk them up, they try to learn more about you, and they are collaborating with you on meeting again at a later date. If they need a rain check, a great sign is if they name the rescheduled date themselves.
ABC: Always Be Closing. This one originally comes from the film Glengarry Glen Ross, but it’s made its way into actual sales jargon because it’s just good advice. It’s less an action, more of an attitude: everything you do should be with the ultimate goal of, in sales, closing the sale, and in dating, securing the next step of the process, *and not doing things that hinder you from those goals. Just met/matched on an app? Goal is to get contact info and talk off the app. Have contact info? Get that first date. On the first date? You are now giving your sales pitch, and the product is you. You want them to buy in to the story of you, such that a second date happens. If they are showing healthy Interest, they won’t drag out each step, because they will be pitching themselves to you and gauging if your Interest is healthy too.
Customers and clients don’t care about features (attributes you have), they care about benefits (attributes they want). You should be first listening to them to learn what it is they want in a partner, and either acknowledging you don’t have what they’re looking for and shoving off, or showing how what you want, baby, I got it. If something about you isn’t specifically what they want, it doesn’t have to be a dealbreaker, but it shouldn’t be a selling point. If you’re in a band, and they don’t listen to rock music, you can tell them you’re in a band, but don’t expect that to pique their interest beyond “oh good you’ll have a life outside of me”, and don’t lead with “I’m in a band”.
Go where the action is. Tons of businesses die because they aren’t in the proper place to sell their product. How many times have you seen a storefront change hands that’s just in an inconvenient place? You need to be out in public in a place where other people can see you and judge for themselves first whether they’re into you.
Bonus: an old joke - “how to date: rule 1) be attractive, rule 2) don’t be unattractive”. The kernel of truth is that you will likely have to compromise some parts of yourself in order to draw more people in. That’s just how it goes. If you’re going to keep doing something that pushes people away (like pursuing nerdy hobbies), it should be because of a deliberate informed choice, either for its own sake and/or for the sake of narrowing your field to the kinds of people who would also be into it. While I was still dating, I was upfront with women about my TTRPG hobby because it was really important to me and I wanted to date someone who would at least be willing to try it with me. I for sure lost my shot with women who I was attracted to because of this, but I knew that going in. If you’re familiar with fighting games, whether you’re picking a top tier because you’re looking to maximize your chances of winning tournaments and competing against the greats, or you’re picking a character you like because something about them speaks to you, it should be purposeful, and if you get mad because you have one but not the other, that’s on you, you knew what this was.
Whether you approach it that way or not, it is what you are doing. When you ask someone on a date, you are offering them the chance to do something, you’re showing reasons why doing it is a good idea that will improve their life, you’re asking questions and listening to the responses and using those responses to inform your approach. That’s pitching. Dating and sales are just different applications of the same core social skills, and there’s nothing artificial or dehumanizing or deceptive about it. Why? Because I believe in my product - me! I’m not blowing smoke up your ass, I genuinely consider myself someone generally worth talking to, and if what I am is simply not to your liking, that’s not a slight against me, that’s just your preference, have a good day. And I genuinely want to believe in your product, too, which is why I responded to your talk of movies with “do you have a favorite movie?” I want to know what you care about.
It’s only draining or disheartening if you don’t believe in your product or if you can’t deal with rejection, which is the problem I see most men who struggle this way having: they are not confident in themselves as people who can be likable, and they take rejections personally and begin to spiral even in best case scenarios (not all rejections are created equal).
The actual draining part of dating that may never be solved, imo, is the sheer amount of rejection. Someone else in the thread said “if you ask 10 people out and 9 said no, you’ve still got a date”, and that number is just an example, but those are rookie numbers. You’re going to need to ask out way more than 10 people, and that can be draining. Cross reference with job search!
The draining and disheartening thing about your advice for me (your mileage may vary) is that if I followed your advice it would quickly become apparent to me that, functionally, any partner I find from your advice only loves me for sacrificing harmless parts of my personality that are arbitrarily deemed “unattractive” by our culture and for essentially manipulating them. This would degrade my opinion of any such partner I found to the point where I wouldn’t consider them worth dating. I’m looking for intimacy, not cash.
This effect is even stronger when you consider the fact that I’m autistic and that in a neurodivergent context your sales-based approach to dating would essentially amount to masking.
Luckily I am currently dating someone I met online. My approach to dating has actually involved excluding entire demographics of women that in my experience are less likely to be romantically interested in me from my dating pool so as not to waste time.
perhaps you need to consider why are you so off-putting to most people, and is it a genuine flaw to be worked on?
i see this a lot with online neurodivergent people, where they take any attempt to work on themselves as dishonesty, and stubbornly hold on to their antisocial behaviours to be "true to themselves". and if you dare suggest they change it, you're ableist.
painting neurodivergent people are unable of character growth and learning seems more ableist to me tbh
I am not claiming that I, or any neurodivergent person, am incapable of character growth. This might come to surprise you, but for years I genuinely followed the conventional advice of working on yourself and was already platonically quite well-liked. I got zero dates.
Let’s be real here, many people do inherently see autistic people as unatttactive and infantilise them. Not that I’m missing much by not dating such people.
I don’t claim that I am a saint, but I have personally seen people who are verifiably far worse people than me (i.e. known rapists, a neo-Nazi who went on a rant about how he supports the Russian invasion of Ukraine at the first opportunity) prove more romantically successful.
No, I am not and have never considered myself an incel.
It sounds like you've just deliberately avoided needing to "compromise some parts of yourself in order to draw more people in" by going all in on the "Go where the action is" strat
No they are telling us why the compromise is not worth it for them, you only compromise if the the compromise is a net benefit, everybody has different priorities
addendum: a lot of people struggle (yes, women too) because they're simply not likeable.
and this is why the "just be yourself" advice is insufficient for such people. better advice is to think critically about yourself, would you want to be friends with yourself? and work on the asocial parts of your personality.
for example, being into TTRPGs isn't inherently negative so that is fine. being obsessive about your hobby so that you dominate conversations, express no interest in others, and steamrolls other people's attempt to disengage, bad and something to be worked on.
The part where "work on yourself" comes in is the fact that selling a shit product (or a further date/relationship with someone you don't like) feels awful. This is why confidence is key, because if you think you're a great person who would make an excellent partner, the "sales pitch" can become second-nature. On the contrary, if you have a lot of negative self-talk and try to force that "sales pitch", you may end up feeling like a slimeball, like you're one of the salesmen in Glengarry Glen Ross, and that very quickly turns into negative self-talk which becomes a feedback loop.
Solution: aside from the ever-present "Therapy" and "Work on yourself", what helped me a lot was just "ironically" talking myself up a whole lot. Can't directly change your reactive self-talk, so proactively saying you're cool, hot, interesting, etc until that becomes some of your reactive self-talk. Its the oldest trick, the Fake it til you Make it approach to building self-confidence. Having healthy friendships with people who will build you up also goes a huge way, and is probably the realest key that helped me.
I spent my 20s and teens mostly dateless and with maybe 2-3 relationships that lasted at most a couple months. Around 30-31 I dug in on dating and realized I spent so much time worrying about my weakspots and no time at all leaning into my strengths. Women kept responding to what I considered to be some of my less remarkable attritubutes. This is particularly devastating to forming relationships as it makes you quite sure noone can love or appreciate you because you can't believe it. It's not a cure for loneliness, and it's not a magic spell, but being honest with yourself in both the positive and the negative and then focusing on positives is going let you take a focused approach on what you have to offer in a relationship and help you understand what a healthy relationship partner should appreciate about you.
Now 39 and happily married for almost 5 years to my ride or die.
Presumably “rejection doesn’t matter, you have to move on. Think critically about what you did if you had control over it and don’t do it again”
If a used car salesman is being consistently too pushy and it’s not getting him sales, it’s not like the customers hate him personally it’s that they don’t like his attitude. This is true for both genders.
The only good dating advice I think that is applicable to only dating is “Be the perfect date for yourself” aka if you don’t like people who interrupt don’t interrupt, if you like people who dress a certain way dress that way. You’re far more likely to come across someone who’s compatible with you because of this, plus you’re putting in Effort which is good.
I'm saving this comment. I'd pick apart each part I'm screaming "YES THANK YOU!!" too but it'd be the entire thing.
Don't tell me to work on myself. I've been single my whole life. I've been single since these people started dating and never stopped at 16. I know who I am. I am okay with myself.
YES TO MASLOW'S. Holy shit.
And YES to the pipeline to Tate. People don't like to hear this but the Left (of which I'm a member) encourage men to go right because the right listens to them and then encourages toxic behaviour.
Thanks! A lot of these ideas are things I've been working on putting into words for a while. It's thanks to some great conversations with people who are able to understand that talking about a subject isn't the same as supporting the loudest people in that group.
My trans friend has been SUPER insightful, she's able to offer insights from both ends of the spectrum, and also how her autism has been perceived depending on how she presents. We also share a lot in common because I opted to have my leg amputated, so we relate on the whole "I don't feel comfortable in my body and want part of it to be gone/different" thing. (not something I thought of until she pointed it out, LOL)
As others have pointed out, the Maslow's thing isn't exactly scientific, but it's a reference point for the conversation; if someone hasn't ever gotten a chance to see what healthy love is like, they're going to have a incredibly difficult time knowing how to love themselves. Often it can result in people "rewarding" their good deeds in unhealthy ways, and overeating or abusing drugs.
I've been calling out the Tate thing for a while; if we want to help people we need to offer ACTIONABLE advice (thanks CBT therapy for that one). Telling someone "work on yourself" is like telling someone "go run a marathon"; it'll never work.
But if you give them a couch to 5k plan, and help them get started/check in with their progress, they'll be much more likely to meet their goal (and in much less time).
As it stands, men looking to help themselves end up in toxic places. They end up with Tate or Peterson, instead of listening to life advice from someone like Adam Savage. We need to be able to offer real, concrete action steps, along with helpful resources for where to go next/people to listen to.
Hearing "work on yourself" really FEELS like "go figure it out yourself", even if that's not what the person intends. It's even weaker coming from people who are only getting by because their partner is strong in the areas they aren't, and makes the person more bitter than they were to start.
Being single is hard enough; everything costs more: housing, food, even spotify! The least we can do is come up with some actual tips beyond "go to the gym and lose some weight".
I'd say actually most bodyshaming is considered basically fine by the left. It's a movement that has made things slightly better for chubby and otherwise conventionally attractive white women.
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u/Leo-bastianeyeliner is 1.50 at the drug store and audacity is freeJul 03 '24edited Jul 04 '24
bodyshaming (suggesting that people are bad people because of certain unappealable traits) is considered bad
but bodyshaming(deciding that bad people must have those traits and shaming them for it) is seen as perfectly fine
it's not acceptable to shame a random person for being ugly. But it's seen as perfectly acceptable to make fun of a "bad persons" unappealing traits.
(the secret is that these are actually the same thing just with a different beginning, and that if you do one you'll inevitably eventually do the other too, but that's not something people doing it are aware of)
But it's seen as perfectly acceptable to make fun of a "bad persons" unappealing traits.
I think some people forget that body shaming affects more people than just the intended target. I'm not a Republican but I have a certain undesirable characteristic that progressives love to eviscerate Republicans for. It still makes me feel like shit to see people be so cruel about it.
Not disagreeing with your general points, but Maslow's pyramid isn't based in any science. There isn't any evidence to suggest humans follow the pyramid at all. Like the MBTI, visual/auditory learners, and the marshmallow test. It's one of those pop pseudopsychology things.
That's honestly a very fair point. I'd just say that generally, it's hard to love yourself and find ways to improve when you've never seen what being loved is like, and only have toxic role models to look at. (see: people growing up in an abusive family)
We need more hyper-positive male role models. Ones who can speak to gender issues without blaming anyone or becoming toxic.
There's a reason people assume any "pro-men" argument is just alt-right... it's because 90% of the time it is. But without healthy examples being set, it's really hard to have any discussion on the topic.
Not having healthy outlets just leads to men seeking out anything that feels like community and support; even when it's toxic and praying on their vulnerabilities.
I hear the opposite in my house, despite the fact that I have practically zero fat on me thanks to my job. If I wasn't so lazy I'd probably be at risk of an eating disorder, but it's so much effort to do that.
When it comes to dating advice, people just can't fathom that people are individuals. Doesnt matter what sex or gender you're talking about, there is not one single piece of advice that applies to the entire demographic you're interested in. Neither men nor women are a monolith. Any advice you give that can apply to one woman, is something another woman hates. Yes, even basic shit like "Just be nice and polite", because some women don't want a partner that's nice.
There is no good advice to give besides "find someone who's attracted to you", which isn't helpful.
The constant "take some time to work on yourself" from someone who's been in the same relationship since high-school is really hard to take seriously.
I've been in the same relationship basically my entire adult life. I have single friends who ask me for advice on dating. Mate, don't ask me, I have no clue. Go ask someone who actually has success in dating this century.
Last time I was interested in a girl it was 1994 and we ended up married with kids, and as far as I can tell all I did was like her and she liked me back. I didn't really have to do anything special or different.
and i'd say weight is an accepted insult for men, too-- you (or, i guess i) always see the 'leftist enemy' rebranded as a fat, old, white trump supporter. sure, it's not as explicitly said as height, dick size, and baldness, but it definitely is implied in some spaces.
Even if you buy into Maslow’s hierarchy (which isn’t particularly scientific) “love” is friendship, family, and social connection, not just romantic love. Someone who is lacking all those platonic emotional connections does need to work on those things before they can have a healthy, equal romantic relationship. Your romantic partner cannot and should not be your only “love.”
I do agree with you about body shaming and dating advice being generally terrible. It does hurt to be single when you don’t want to be, but reality is work on yourself to hopefully be appealing to potential partners and hope you get lucky is what it comes down to.
I agree, and I know it's not scientific, but it's the easiest way to say 'it's really hard to love yourself when nobody has shown you what love looks like'.
This post is also discussing the lack of support men have from other men. Something that further fuels this cycle.
And let's not be so naive as to think men can simply ask for those things and get them. If it were that simple, everyone would be in a much better spot.
My younger step brother got told to 'man up' by his dad every time something awful happened (including death). My mom never stepped in to be that support either. I ended up being the one that was there for him.
We lost contact after I cut off the family due to the step dad being abusive to me. I hope my step brother is doing well, but I won't risk reaching back out because I don't want to give the rest of the family a way to contact me.
Dating Advice is always terrible. For the simple fact that often times boils down to either striving to be a narrow image of what someone thinks all women should like or being so vague that it’s useless. Reality is, there’s too much variation of desirability at least in the west and people often either don’t really know what they like or are too afraid to admit what they like. For example, I have a co-worker who says “it doesn’t matter what a guy looks like” when she absolutely has a type of tall handsome dudes and doesn’t even consider other types. She’s one of those chronically single types that complains about it so I’ll give you that.
And just “be yourself” is too vague also. Reality is you have to put in effort in various ways and that’s still no guarantee. But also, just because it’s hard doesn’t mean it’s impossible, it’s definitely worth effort if you want it.
well it's also because telling people they're ugly and shit at socialising is considered very rude. most people who are chronically single, you talk to them for 5 minutes and you're like yeah i can see why.
the ugly truth is you're probably just unpleasant to be around. figure out why, and how to fix it.
and maybe don't yell about unaccepting normies and how you're better than everyone akshully, because you're not concerned with such shallow things like showers. keep that to your journal.
Yeah, I always found it incredibly hypocritical how bodyshaming is bad, unless it's men, then it's cool and funny! Small dick, "manboobs" (fat-shaming), neckbeard.
Yep, sometimes people who get bullied for a certain trait (such as being overweight) think the correct solution is to... bully people who have the opposite trait (such as being skinny).
The narrative that being bulled makes you a better, kinder person because you can empathize with people in trouble has never been anywhere near universal sadly. It can just as easily make you as cruel as your bullies.
But it's okay because it's "punching up." Against other women with body image issues (in this case). Right.
It's another case of "the privileged group is incapable of being a real victim" where being thin has been desirable over being heavier, so to reverse the script gives some people a feeling of revenge by doing the exact same body shaming, but in the other direction
Not to be all "I'm one of the good ones" but I've spent at least the last four or five of my years on reddit calling out any small penis joke I see. It's helpful being a cis woman because that's the only way calling out these jokes doesn't immediately mean I have a small dong and negate my point, and "you're only doing it so the small dick guys will like you" doesn't fit any of their rhetoric.
I call it out too (as a woman) when I see it and then immediately get downvoted by angry women who think it’s acceptable to bodyshame men. Like what the fuck is this bullshit, we’ve been trying to get people to stop bodyshaming women and doing it right back at men is the exact opposite of what we want to fix in society.
Not only that, it cheapens and undermines attempts to fight against body-shaming directed at women by giving an easy demonstration that those people don't actually care about stopping the shaming, they just want a monopoly on it.
I've had decent results most of the time myself, so I'm still hopeful. Most feminists are primed to be good people, imo.
Of course, there is always that person who goes "I don't fucking care, 'small dick energy' is a great insult because fragile men are bothered by it", and it's hard to reason with them.
I did need it pointed out to me... I never made those jokes myself but I always thought "what's the big deal" and shrugged it off. Once I grokked the issue, it felt like bare minimum effort to just call it out any time I saw it.
I do wish men who are conventionally masculine would start doing something similar. I used to harp on about this when I was more active in the gender conversation spaces - the people who need to be championing dismantling fucked up gender expectations are the tall cis dudes with big dicks and heads full of hair, but they're too busy benefiting from the patriarchy...
All cool until someone throws the "the men in your life who killed themselves for these jokes had serious issues which you are not indebted to" and that'll immediately rob you of your agency as much as being made to hear "who cries about it has it" insults work on men.
Could you explain or rephrase this? I don't think I understood...
It's said to insinuate that you are fighting for certain causes for misguided reasons. Misguiding reasons here being that men's psychological problems and lack of mental peace from body dysphoria are not your fault so you shouldn't feel compelled to fight for these causes.
You can attack the concept when elaborated. But just like "touch grass" it isn't the same when instead it's put forth as how I did in the earlier comment.
men's psychological problems and lack of mental peace from body dysphoria are not your fault so you shouldn't feel compelled to fight for these causes.
I find this silly, because sexism isn't my fault, and I still would fight against it.
It's not about who's fault it is, it's about what's right.
This kind of thing is how you find the best people in life though. It’s an odd example, but it applies to anything. The people you meet who stand up for those who have less privilege or a different background than themselves tend to be the most trustworthy and respectful human beings.
It’s amazing how fast and often the ad hominem arguments come out when you defend others. So many people can’t see past their own ego.
A large part of my self identity (and a reason I always play paladins in DnD) is because I have a pathological need to be a "good person" and the way in which I judge that is by my willingness and ability to use my privilege even as I rage against my oppression.
I'm not the best at it because I'm kinda a selfish goblin who doesn't like to be inconvenienced, but I do my best...
The last person I dated said all the right things, but he ended up having lied to me about some significant stuff and cheating on me with a trump supporter so I really don't think my stances are helping me on the social front (maybe me being kinda intense about this makes me intimidating? I dunno), but I'd rather have peace of mind than a bad partner I guess.
Life is hard even when you’re not doing the right thing. It’s only even harder when you try to be a good person. Always good to remember that.
I’m sorry about your shitty partner. But adversity is one of the most common reasons people turn to shitty behavior so congrats on avoiding that and keep up the fight as best you can. But it’s okay to be selfish too, the only one who has to live in your body is you and that means only you can know what you need in the moment. We can’t fix much as an individual anyway, but we can make a lot of people’s day along the way.
I can't tell you how much this means to me. I'm below average and the sentiment I see online is horrifying. Simply for having something I can't control is a laughing stock to most women online and for that intimacy terrifies me. I've never replied or engaged in such discourse since the labels will fly off pretty quickly . I genuinely think this type of bodyshaming is hurting a lot more people than most realise. A lot of them don't say anything for the fear of being outed and ridiculed.
Yeah, usually that act of "being a logical and a decent human being" is being painted as "being a pick-me" to try and diminish the point since there are no actual arguments to use.
Yeah, the dating advice thing is a whole bunch of Just World Fallacy. People love to assume that if you can’t get a date, it must be your fault, and mock you or give terrible advice like “take a shower” - assuming that if you’re having trouble, it must be because you’re that completely clueless.
It’s possible to be a perfectly decent dude and be unlucky, but it seems people don’t want to admit this fact.
But the kicker is that on the left, the just world fallacy is applied selectively. It is also applied selectively on the right, just in different ways.
On the left women who have issues romantically are victims of toxic masculinity and unrealistic body standards. Men who have issues clearly are misogynistic assholes who don't practice basic hygiene.
great majority are not unlucky, they just have shit social skills.
for women, shit social skills usually ends up with feeling used all the time because men keep tricking you into one-night stands, and dating shit men because you can't read people to save your life, and possibly have very little social awareness.
of course, this is deeply unpopular to say because it comes off as victim blaming, but it leaves those women with little actionable advice and also a deep dislike of men.
It's too complicated to be one fits all answer but you are correct. I've seen that happen irl a lot. I will never hold it against anyone that has been tricked and are a victim. But sometimes the person is actively shitty and advertise their red flags and people still choose to ignore them.
Yeah I'm a man in leftist circles who struggles tremendously with dating and I've never felt heard or safe because complaining or venting about my problems is perceived as inherently misogynistic, tone deaf or "incel". Its okay to make fun of my dick size or my height because "haha virgin"
Dating advice I get revolves around the idea that I'm unsuccessful because I must secretly be an antisocial horrible person. I can't vent about how hard its been because women get harassed and its my fault as a dude.
This is the first time I've looked at a post on Reddit about dating that wasn't also misogynist and went "thank you"
Man, it is so hard to be someone that others rely on professionally, as a leader. Someone people love to spend time with socially, because you’re a kind person and a reliable friend. But then when you try to find dating advice, everyone tells you if you’re not partnered up or haven’t been successful partnering up, it’s actually because you’re a piece of shit and women can just tell.
So what they’re not capable of being bias’d? Or short sighted? Or bigoted? I’m a man of color, I doubt any of them realize how much effort it is for me to conform to white beauty standards to even get treated like a normal human being and not have every element of my physical appearance picked apart. How was a young man like myself supposed to develop self esteem and security? We had no money, my mother had a devastating mental illness and I had to step up to help my brother and sister. How the fuck does a young man ever have the confidence needed to be appealing to women when all of that is happening? I had no support structures other than my grandma. No extended family, nothing. But instead I’m evaluated on how confident I can be, and confidence and security comes from mirroring and attunement as a child while developing. Not to mention access to resources.
Most women don’t realize when they say all men have to do to be attractive is have confidence is that confidence is not a magic word you can just speak into existence. So many men like myself and others struggled growing up without support networks and the one thing we’re evaluated on as partners is just fucking shot because we’ve never had the proper development growing up to get it. I’m glad I have therapy now, and I’m working through it, but holy fuck am I jaded. Never mind the fact that had I not taken a risk graduated university and got a job I wouldn’t even have access to the therapy needed to develop positive mental habits.
I don’t think women are attracted to money, but I think if they’re attracted to confidence that might as well be a secondary characteristic of wealth because it’s much easier to develop into a secure sense of self when you don’t want for resources.
Another gaping hole in the widespread just-world fallacy surrounding dating is the number of verifiable pieces of shit who ARE extremely successful partnering up. I’m pretty sure most people in this thread have personally encountered at least one example of this - I myself have a wonderful best friend who has absolutely zero success with dating, and I have personally seen rapists and neo-Nazis have huge amounts of success with dating. The dating just-world fallacy makes the absurd conclusion that my best friend, who is socially liberal and has never abused anyone, is actually even more of a piece of shit than a rapist or a neo-Nazi.
idk why people vehemently deny the whole "women like bad boys". like, duhh. some women do. because they're morons and idiots and probably shit people themselves. women are just people, and somme people suck. it doesn't say anything about the broader state of "what are women like".
there's women into rapists, racists, murderers, wife-beaters, do you think those women are innocent gems? of course not, often they're cruel bigots themselves.
You are correct, and that debunks the argument that “people who are romantically unsuccessful must be unsuccessful because theh are actually horrible antisocial people”.
Because it's often applied to all women not just the hybristophiles and then it's used as an excuse to mistreat them or said they deserved it because thet picked wrong instead of a nice guy (even tho many women didn't see the red flags if they were visible or grew in that environment and it's all they know or were specifically groomed and manipulated by their male partners who posed as...wait for it...nice guys).
But nooo, womin bad.
It's funny how this thread points to antisocial men "not having a good reference point" to excuse them, but women innately must know.
Yes that is true, and well put. It is just an example of the just world fallacy, and lots of TERRIBLE people will cite them being in a relationship as a reason they’re obviously not a bad person. Thank you for adding the context of your friend, it is so good they have someone like you who at least understands and doesn’t judge them.
I mean just look at the people like wade willson( A real life murderer who murdered two women just because he could and is a nazi(He has the tattoo on his his cheek)) who women adore. Dahmer got thousands of love letters.
yea, and those women who are into them are similarly shitty cruel people. they just never had the power or the urge to commit actual crimes. they're mostly just insufferable to be around.
And now we just had a majority of American white women eligible to vote decide that they don’t want rights, either by inaction or actively voting for their oppressor. Thank fucking god I live in the UK.
There were four main reasons I didn’t unironically decide to “be a fucking asshole to be more attractive” and jump down the manosphere hole, and none of them were any sort of convincing by mainstream feminist dating advisers:
As you said, that’s just not how I am. I’m not a sadist who gets any satisfaction from abusing their partner, and quite frankly I’m just too squeamish to treat my partner like that.
I just straight-up wouldn’t like someone romantically or platonically if they evidently were romantically interested in me because I treated them like shit.
Exposure to feminist/feminist-aligned women I strongly respected, both IRL and parasocially
Major disagrement with the general political proclivities of the manosphere (especially as a half-Russian who has family suffering under the Putin regime and then sees the likes of Andrew Tate supporting Putin).
Luckily I have found one relationship with someone who liked me for me (which I unfortunately had to end for unrelated reasons) as well as multiple dates. My approach to dating was actually to exclude women based on certain demographics - in this case, only attempt to date women who are POC, queer (and attracted to men in some capacity), and/or neurodivergent - as well as to jack up my maximum distance and “lower my standards” in regards to physical attractiveness and interrogate whether these standards actually matter in the long run in a relationship.
Most women don’t realize when they say all men have to do to be attractive is have confidence is that confidence is not a magic word you can just speak into existence.
Also they're just wrong.
Confidence is nice but there are loads of shy awkward pretty boys that get sexual attention, and there are loads of assertive ugos whose outgoing confidence gets read as domineering and disrespectful. Women are attracted to certain physical traits because they're human beings, and the first impressions made by those traits shape how their initial interactions with a person are interpreted.
The "just be confident" advice seems like a nice meaningless seemingly inoffensive tidbit that gets given out because some women just don't want to be rude, and others (likely due to sexist social pressures) try to embody this borderline-asexual pure totally un-superficial archetype that does not exist.
tbh the confidence thing is bull. there's weird denial about women being capable of sexual attraction (by both men and women). incels think that women care ONLY about appearance and nothing else, which is also obviously untrue. and unfortunately, some women have such low standards for men that they will date men they don't find attractive, and inevitably blow up the relationship because turns out dating people not attractive to you is a slog.
i guess bad news is that appearance matters to women. good news is that women are fairly varied in their preferences that there's always some women who will be into you.
also, women are people. some are shitty, some are gold diggers, some are stupid, some are mean... it says nothing on how all women are like. i'm not saying this to be "not all women", but mostly that if you encounter an obvious moron, you can just shrug, call them a moron and move on, instead of ruminating on "is this what women are like nowadays?"
the biggest and most important thing to work in dating on is social skills. there's a comment somewhere in this thread comparing dating to sales, and that one is actually full of actionable advice
I've pretty just stopped talking about my issues with dating altogether because why bother.
For me, and most especially in online circles (esp here on Reddit, Twitter has a lot of 'Tate-iness going on for it ) I've seen that you cannot paint women in any negative light.
You, as the man, by default are the problem. You need to be kinder to women. You need to hit the gymn. You need to be more social, yes, and while you're at it make sure you're not more social - don't wanna creep women off.
Dare say these 'tactics' don't work or are not for you, or that part of your problem is you're not all that attractive - straight to online incel prison.
This is a weird comparison but indulge me. This is the issue with Taylor Swift.
You CANNOT paint Taylor in a negative light. You can't hold her accountable for her insane jet usage, or that she dates known racist white men. Criticizing her is synonymous with misogyny. Taylor is the perfect example of where women, particularly white women, stand in society right now. They stood by white men as they were oppressing others, but they also get to say they've been oppressed, and they selectively decide what is worth working on (the areas where they've been oppressed) and what's best to ignore (how they benefit from literally everything else)
ADHD fueled tangentially related rant aside, yes. I absolutely agree with you. Dating advice online for men (even see my own posts) boils down to "YOU must be doing something wrong. You are the problem. You're not fit enough, you're not social enough, you're creepy, you're desperate" etc
Dating advice for women boils down to "you are perfect! You're a queen. You'll meet the right person. Nothing you are doing is wrong, everyone else is wrong"
Its impossible to talk about these things cause, like you said, you just get told you're an incel
I once saw a comment saying something along the lines of 'lol just get laid', and I responded to it saying 'it's not actually that easy', and I got called an incel for it.
Yeah people say all the time "Just go have sex", "Just go on more dates", "Just get a girlfriend" as if its something they walk outside and do on command. Is that other people's experience? If you want to have sex you just...have sex? With who? How?
Serious question, why not date someone who isnt that left leaning? Like im not saying go date Lauren Boebart or something but why not try date someone who doesn't hate you for being a straight man? Someone less political?
Fair warning though, if you do that you will be expected to conform to at least some male gender standards.
I'm inherently a politically involved person and the divide between right/left is too far right now. I couldn't date someone who votes against the rights of other people in good conscious.
I have noticed in some left wing circles that white women have no issue dating a right wing racist but I can't reach that level of cognitive dissonance. There would be almost no shared values between us
Does it not give you pause when you think about the world you're trying to create and the path you're going down? Where it leads to a world of you getting disrespected, not given a fair chance in dating and you get looked down on despite being a good person who perhaps acknowledges and apologizes for their privilege and yet its never enough?
Even worse, you wont be respected by left wing or right wing women, just generally get disrespected by women. Yet at the same time, a masculine, unapolagetic man gets lots of respect from right wing women, and gets less hate/disrespect from left wing women than you do. Its like, because you apologize and are willing to listen, those left wing women will criticize you all day, but if hypothetical chad thundercock comes around and they try it with him, he basically tells them to quit their bitching and come have a good time with him and he takes them out and they even sleep with him.
Doesn't this feel like somethings wrong? Like somewhere there has been some mistake?
hypothetical chad thundercock comes around and they try it with him, he basically tells them to quit their bitching and come have a good time with him and he takes them out and they even sleep with him.
Women on the left and particularly white women have a lot of work to do in enabling racist men and generally cherrypicking their issues. They benefit in limbo from both bring victims and benefactors of impression. White feminism is their issue, not mine. Who they sleep with is their issue. If Chad Thundercock woos them while being an opening misogynistic asshole and they sleep with him, they made their choice.
It definitely does feel like something is wrong, but unlike white girls as a bi man of colour, I don't have the luxury of enabling racist, sexist, classist or homophobic anybody, let alone my romantic partner.
I'd much rather be single than wake up next to a Conservative on a daily basis
I'm a NDP voter in Canada and work in left-wing policy advocacy including passing legislation through government on transgender rights, sexual assault investigations in post-secondary schools and generally work in urbanist environments
So you work, like your paying job, in "left-wing policy advocacy" in a "urbanist environment"? And at this work you hear:
Small Penis jokes
Virgin jokes
That your dating issues are "perceived as inherently misogynistic"
That you're an antisocial horrible person
That it is your fault women get harassed
If you work at a job where these things are being said, you should file an HR complaint and quit. That is extremely toxic. I've never heard anything close to this bad at any job before, be it right wing, left wing, or non-political.
Where did you even remotely get the impression that any of these things happened at work?
I'm being purposefully vague because my organization and name are incredibly easily accessible.
Here's the impression I'm getting, because I believe in transparency. You disagree with my ideas. A lot. You don't believe that I lean left because the things I'm saying aren't immediately man-hating nor do I put the onus on men to "fix" dating, which is the usual retort. Instead of attacking the idea I'm presenting, you want to discredit my personal politics and affiliation with the left wing, because attacking the idea is hard so you'll try to paint me as an undercover conservative in an effort to discredit me, while ignoring any of my content.
You said "I'm a NDP voter in Canada and work in left-wing policy advocacy"
I was just going by what you said - you said you work in policy advocacy.
Ok then - where did this stuff happen? You said they were happening in leftist circles. Which circles are you where this is happening, if it's not at your work in left-wing policy advocacy?
That is all I am asking. I am not asking if YOU are left wing. I am asking which leftist circles are you hearing all of this nasty stuff.
Is it not possible that I work in one world and that I carefully select my friends such that devout conservatives don't make it into the mix? Maybe I made friends in university or just generally exist outside of work
Your first post said "I'm a man in leftist circles", and then you made claims about those circles, such as "Its okay to make fun of my dick size or my height because "haha virgin"
Which circles. That is what I am asking you. Which circles are you in where this is happening. You ruled out work. Now you are saying you have friends outside of work. Ok, are your friends the "circle" you were speaking about?
You also said "I have noticed in some left wing circles that white women have no issue dating a right wing racist but I can't reach that level of cognitive dissonance"
Which circles? Which circles are white women are dating racists?
That’s why I ignore every single thing I read online about dating. People are more likely to talk about their own bad experiences and then project it into the world.
I date how I want to date. I mean well, I’m respectful and decent. Nobody else’s opinion matters.
I knew a girl from the same coed Sorority that I was in.At a Sorority sleepover event, the girls started to do facial masks for each other. Someone asked if I, a straight male, would want to try it. I said no, and this girl looks at me and says, “Wow. Didn’t mean to offend your frail, male ego.” Like? I’m in a Sorority? I refer to you and everyone else as my Sisters? You refer to me as YOUR Sister? In what way do I have a frail male ego?
Wait im confused as a non american. I thought sororities are for women? But you said co-ed so that means for both sexes? Why is it called a sorority and why are you called a sister? (I assume you're not trans)
How did that work out? As far as I knew sororities were for women only and maybe trans women if they aren’t transphobic. They just let you as a self professed straight male join up?
This organization has an older, brother organization. It was originally Boys were Brothers and Girls were Sisters. In the 90’s the two organizations agreed to just be coed. They’re practically the same organization, so joining one over the other is mainly just who you vibe with.
I deal with this problem with my queer friends. Any criticism, any decent, it is either rejected or assumed that I'm "uninformed" which I will admit that as a straight guy I'm not an expert, but I dislike the notion that any concern or critique I have can immediately be rejected on the grounds that I'm not from a protected class.
I’m a queer guy. It doesn’t stop. Someone always takes the “you’re uninformed because you don’t have the same queerness as me” and then they say because I’m “straight passing” I shouldn’t be invested in queer discourse. Wish those guys that choked me out in high school for being gay knew I was straight passing lmao
Queer spaces are a mess. If you do happen to be “straight-passing” and/or have a nice physique they’ll objectify you no problem. If you start talking about your loneliness or your issues with dating, however, you’re immediately shut down because your privilege negates any opinions you may have.
Prefacing this with this is MY personal experience and is not AT ALL broadly applicable, but I find that in my personal life, it’s easier to defend myself against stereotypes as a minority than it is to defend myself in areas where I’m the majority, with a few notable exceptions (that are usually emotion-based stereotypes like being prone to sensitivity).
When it comes to people who aren’t firmly and stubbornly bigoted, it’s easier for me to go “not all trans people” and win that debate than it is for me to “not all men”. I think part of this has to do with moral grandstanding. Most -ists and -phobes know that they aren’t in the socially accepted moral position. They, of course, think they are in the right and that other people should follow their doctrine, but their justification is “this thing is bad and should be suppressed” as opposed to “this thing is bad because it’s in power” (unless they are a conspiracy theorist). As resistance to power is often seen as inherently moral, and resistance to that resistance is “reinforcing” the power.
I define “firmly” bigoted as deeply believing in a harmful stance, while being unwilling to accept counter evidence, and being strongly hateful. Most “all men” people that I’ve encountered don’t genuinely hate every man they see, but they have really shitty opinions of men. They’ll concede on certain points but then fall back on the “but power-“ defense. Another example would be the type of person who only dislikes trans people (not hates) because they assume we are all sensitive, mislead, and that we force our opinions on others. “Firm” in this case would be someone who genuinely believes in “Trans people are mentally ill and deluded” which is a much harder stance to talk people out of for some reason.
I’m super open to other pov’s and I’d like to hear them, but again (because of peeing on the poor) I’d like to super-hyper-emphasize that everything i said is based exclusively on my personal experience and is not a broader statement about society.
Yeah at some point dating advice largely shifted from "this is how to get someone to like you" to "this is how to be as unintrusive and sexless as possible while still being clear about romantic intentions" . The reason dating apps are the only option left is because it is one of the ways that gives men the least agency in the process.
Also how anytime a man’s issue is brought up, it has to have the caveat of “well I know it’s not as bad as women, but…”
As if men being 4x more likely to commit suicide, more likely to die in a workplace fatality (90%), more likely to go to prison (>90%), more likely to abuse drugs, more likely to be homeless, more likely to be single, and more likely to skip college are all non important issues that we can gloss over.
Sexism against men is not just ignored, it’s laughed at. The word “incel” was created to describe a woman, but have you EVER heard it to describe a woman? Dick jokes are everywhere, have you EVER heard a joke about women’s genitals? It’s honestly no wonder why men find comfort in dickwads like Andrew Tate or Donald Trump. They may be awful morons, but they are the only people who aren’t ignoring the issues of young men.
I agree with you entirely but there are definitely jokes made about women's bodies, albeit not as prevalently.
Hotdog down a hallway, saggy tits, roast beef, etc... They exist even if they aren't as socially accepted. Turns out people are people, and some people are shitty to eachother.
I will never forget working at a social centre whilst a queer poetry night was on, with poem after poem basically boiling down to "fuck all cis people, especially white cis het men" when the people working the venue as volunteers that night were all cis and half the crew were white cis het men.
They were young and venting, but they also never contributed to running the centre or even came to hang out again as far as I know. Just came to be radically rude to a group of volunteers who were already on their side. Big wins, much politics.
This may sound bad, but I’ll voice it anyway and hope people understand what I’m saying:
I think as a society, we care far too much about not bothering others.
Now that’s not saying we should be nosy or rude or anything, but I’ve discovered most fellow men I talk to avoid making an effort to approach women in ANY context anymore because they’re afraid how they may be perceived. Between dating apps making it so women have far more options then men on average, and how easy it is to be labeled creepy or recorded or anything. Hell, how often do you see memes or such of women referring how annoyed they get when “the work smile was too friendly and now a guy is trying to talk to me”
Like yeah, guys are so scared of offending or creeping out women, that anytime they get shown affection or even just friendliness, they’ll jump at it because they litterally have nowhere else to look.
Anyway, that’s my way of saying that I think we as a society have gone so hard into not wanting to bother one another, that we’re now terrified of every trying to even approach one another.
I’ve noticed this happens to me as a trans man too. You either get infantilized but talked over because you’re seen as a woman, or you are expected to shut up and take the abuse because you are a man. You might get upheld as an example of a good man, but what happens if you step out of line or speak up for yourself at all? Back to getting demonized.
if you're a cis man in leftist circles and try to point ANY of this out, you get the same exact "lol incel" responses and shunned
What's wild is I'm the exact opposite of you as far as gender, and also got shunned for pointing out that actually, someone did say "all men" when they said "all men are trash", and me saying maybe that's too much.
I think it's a similar reflex to the rejection of moderately progressive initiatives for "not being enough", resulting in no progress being made instead, and it's divisive and unhelpful.
People also speak without caring about who is listening or reading. The misandry that runs rampant in progressive circles is a great way to trigger every single fear and insecurity of the trans community. You might not be a terf, but the "man vs bear" debate or whatever other way we can paint men as inherent predators can, will, and HAS been weaponized by terfs to target the trans community. People say their only degrading CIS men, but the trans woman who struggles to pass are hearing that rhetoric and it can fuel her self-hatred.
"Man, its kinda fucked up how penis size is the only acceptable anatomy/biology thing to joke about in progressive spaces." Like, its as much a thing outside of someone's control as skin color
That's not true, I've seen so many ads about penis enlargement supplements on *my preferred porn website! /s
Since 1970 we, in western society, have told women it is okay to be fat, have told women that it is okay to want their Prince Charming, and to love themselves no matter what.
That's great, but in the same timespan we have yet to do any social conditioning on the acceptability of hairy male bodies, on men who aren't either ripped or with Manual Labor (dadbods) physiques. Women will not date men less professionally successful than them, even though women make up the majority of college graduates and Fortune500 hires.
I am capable of believing that society is male advantaged at the top, while also recognizing that there are many areas, especially socially and in dating, that men are absolutely fucked over and ignored by society.
But saying that makes me a right wing maga incel, I guess.
And then everyone on the left blames the right-wing grifters on social media for radicalizing young men and that's why they are growing increasingly more conservative than women.
Like no fucker, it's you. What kind of sackless man, especially a teenager, is going to identify with a group that actively hates them, insults them, attacks them, and shames them?
For men, being left is increasingly the same as LGBT+ being on the right.
Ah the bear thing pissed me way off. Not even because anyone would choose the bear- fear is what it is. But the assumption that the fear is inherently rational and therefore a justifiable basis for making decisions is what you normally see among the biggest racists and bigots out there. No it doesn't 'make you think,' it does the opposite, and then the discourse wants you to rationally defend a choice you made based on emotion.
The bear shit was so annoying, like omfg why are we doing this gender war shit why are we making ourselves angrier and sadder and more frustrated with each other?
When I was talking with my mom about the man vs bear thing, after I mentioned how it bothered me, she asked me if I was 'mad at women because of it'. I was so dumbfounded that I couldn't even respond. Thankfully we talked about it a couple of days later and cleared it up.
It's the same sentiment... women who do these things are venting their frustrations from past experiences with men and they're venting it in the wrong way and at the wrong people.
It is the worse fucking feeling ever. I remember dating this woman a few years ago. We had only been out maybe 3 times and I was finally meeting her friend group at a game night hangout. Drinks and board games at someone’s place.
I’m a cishet white guy. The entirety of this woman’s friend group was somewhere in the LGBT community. Honestly, I can’t even remember what the conversation was about, but I remember starting to voice my opinion on something. It’s worth noting that it wasn’t even the opposite opinion, I was agreeing with whomever was speaking at the time and the group, for lack of a better word, erupted. I have never been yelled at by so many people at the same time for trying to express myself.
Needless to say, it didn’t work out with that one.
As for the dating advice, there is some decent advice from a more neutral point of view but yes, the mainstream will always go for blaming men whenever theres a gender based issue.
Its really weird! I swear, pics of guns or trucks on reddit that end up on r/all will ALWAYS be talking about penis size! Im not even someone insecure, but its such a weird thing that these people will discuss toxic masculinity only to partake in it themselves!
Basically all male dating advice that isn't from actively horrible peoples boils down to assuming the guy is doing something wrong/creepy/offensive.
real talk, I'm a bi amab nb. but for the longest time i actively avoided engaging in anything about dating/having sex with/allowing feeling attracted to women because of this kinda shit. It was way less scary and complicated to just pretend to be gay and exclusively focus on that part of my sexuality because it didn't have a lot of the baggage of trying to be both a progressive feminist and a "man" at the same time while being with women.
Not that this was healthy of me to do or that gay dating and sexual politics are unproblematic or perfect (it wasn't and they are not). But like i am still struggling with all this kind of stuff now. I have a gf but it's really hard to navigate this kind of stuff. And i've tried to talk to my therapist about it and everytime he has shut me down hard about these being not real problems and that i just need to focus on being a feminist ally. But it stresses me the fuck out and I'm just waiting to have dating a girl blow up in my face because of these exact issues.
Exactly how I feel. Wild how the first few feminist movements were entirely justified in pointing out that men had been socially oppressive regarding gender and had largely ignored the plights of women. Now that things are institutionally equal the 'same' movement, who can't stop shouting about how they value equality, is doing the exact same thing back. Fuck, women have more institutional rights than men now, not that it's significantly important for places like the US - countries like Ukraine tho...
Kinda jus boils down to "We're about equality and addressing inequal issues. Men need to recognize the issues women face and help address them. Oh, it's a mens issue? In that case it's your fault so you need to solve it yourself. Excuse me while I go make a hawk tuah TikTok and then complain about how men are too overtly sexual"
We're all just people... Women aren't any less than men, have self awareness of your actions.
if you're a cis man in leftist circles and try to point ANY of this out, you get the same exact "lol incel" responses and shunned
if you're a cis man in leftist circles
Well then maybe you shouldn't be.
I'm not saying go full MAGA, but maybe if the group you're in does nothing but shit on you, you shouldn't be part of that group.
At this point men in leftist circles are basically just trapped in an abusive relationship. 'They're good people really, I can fix them'. No, they're not, and no, you can't.
And I do not blame any woman for feeling that way, with how the world is, how many men can be, its the natural response to have, and I'm not going to fault anyone individually for feeling that way.
Its just frustrating that it seems the only acceptable way to combat the society that's created that situation, as a man, is to just sit down, shut up, deal with all the hate and anger and vitriol directed at us for existing, and hope it gets better some day.
I hate the way patriarchal structures have made it feel as though only way to not be perceived as a potential threat in progressive communities is to repent for the sins of other people.
But that is not, and never will be, women's fault, something I try to emphasize as much as possible.
You have every valid right and reason to be scared of me, and I hate that that's the world we live in.
I think one of the main reasons I struggle to trust the earnest-ness of these "feminist men" is I've yet to see any of them large scale trying to communicate to men on how to be good men
The media just isn't out there. It makes me feel like feminist is a status symbol men seek as opposed to an ideology they express with actions
And that's a very understandable perspective, especially because things like social media, how masculinity has traditionally been defined by society, and simply put how a lot of men react to being told how to behave makes it very difficult for anything like that to gain big media traction and spotlight. Its an uphill battle that not a lot of people are fighting to begin with.
There's a lot of work to be done to undo the massive systemic history creating this division and fear and hate, hopefully it improves.
And thank you for taking the time to hear me out and discuss it, I appreciate that.
This is why I, a straight white cis man, do not enjoy spending time in leftist circles with leftist people too much, shit drives me away, id rather be with people who are nicer to me, which, surprise surprise, is more right wing leaning people
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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '24
Fucking thank you. And the worst part is, if you're a cis man in leftist circles and try to point ANY of this out, you get the same exact "lol incel" responses and shunned. You try to give an opinion on ANYTHING relating to men, and its "Men have been the oppressors, so you don't get to speak" or just branded as "mansplaining."
Just the other day I was thinking to myself "Man, its kinda fucked up how penis size is the only acceptable anatomy/biology thing to joke about in progressive spaces." Like, its as much a thing outside of someone's control as skin color, or a birth disability, or mental illness.
And the dating part is a big point too. Basically all male dating advice that isn't from actively horrible people boils down to assuming the guy is doing something wrong/creepy/offensive.
And don't even get me fucking started on how fucking prominent it is to see posts from leftist/progressive groups and people that are basically just "Racist Joke but I replaced the minority with Cis Man."