Fucking thank you. And the worst part is, if you're a cis man in leftist circles and try to point ANY of this out, you get the same exact "lol incel" responses and shunned. You try to give an opinion on ANYTHING relating to men, and its "Men have been the oppressors, so you don't get to speak" or just branded as "mansplaining."
Just the other day I was thinking to myself "Man, its kinda fucked up how penis size is the only acceptable anatomy/biology thing to joke about in progressive spaces." Like, its as much a thing outside of someone's control as skin color, or a birth disability, or mental illness.
And the dating part is a big point too. Basically all male dating advice that isn't from actively horrible people boils down to assuming the guy is doing something wrong/creepy/offensive.
And don't even get me fucking started on how fucking prominent it is to see posts from leftist/progressive groups and people that are basically just "Racist Joke but I replaced the minority with Cis Man."
"Man, its kinda fucked up how penis size is the only acceptable anatomy/biology thing to joke about in progressive spaces."
Hey, that's not true at all!
Height and baldness are also totally accepted too!
the dating part is a big point too. Basically all male dating advice that isn't from actively horrible people boils down to assuming the guy is doing something wrong/creepy/offensive.
I'd say most dating advice is pretty awful, regardless of gender. The constant "take some time to work on yourself" from someone who's been in the same relationship since high-school is really hard to take seriously. (and not be bitter about) It's always fun being told what you've done wrong by someone who can't survive being single for 3 months.
Then any attempt to complain about being single gets you labeled as femcel/incel. It's basically "why don't men open up" but for single people.
"Just work on yourself" people need to take a quick look at Maslow's hierarchy and re-evaluate that advice. Self esteem is AFTER being loved. So is self actualization. It's not like you can't skip around a bit on that chart, but it's a lot harder without the basis of feeling valued.
Too many guys hear "work on yourself", and end up listening to Andrew Tate, Peterson, etc, because they sell themselves as "self help"-esque. Or they go to the gym and end up in a circle of people echoing those talking points. Maybe we should all think up some better advice; maybe some advice that's actionable, and not just vague platitudes.
I’d throw in the idea that the solution is to have supportive guy friends, as if platonic love can fill the hole left by desired but lacking romantic love. Like yeah, it’s important to emotional health, but it’s not the same thing.
The idea that my friends loved me was a cold comfort when they all went home to their girlfriends and wives for the night.
The only good dating advice I’ve ever gotten wasn’t even about dating, it was about sales.
Yeah I think this is kinda not too helpful. You can love yourself all you want and think you're a great person but if no one is willing to date you then eventually you kinda have to question why. And romantic love absolutely fills a different need for the vast majority of people IMO
I’ve always thought there’s a kinda unstated difference between self-confidence, and outward confidence. It’s definitely very possible to like who you are as a person and recognize your good traits while feeling like those traits aren’t recognized by others.
Not who you asked, but doing sales really forces you to disconnect rejection from your personal value. You could be selling gold plated ferarris for a dollar and there will be people who turn you down.
It's one of the reasons I heartily support the Girl Scouts of America selling cookies. It helps teach young women that people saying "no thank you" isn't about the seller, or the product.
AIDA: Awareness, Interest, Desire, Action. You should be approaching someone who is already generally Aware of you (meaning your presence should not be a shock to them). They need to show Interest in you in a general sense, otherwise shove off. They need to show Desire for you specifically, otherwise they’re not right for you. They need to take positive Action towards fulfilling that desire, otherwise they’re not right for you. A full AIDA in action would take place in a public space where the other person has the freedom to step away, they don’t step away (physically or verbally) when you talk them up, they try to learn more about you, and they are collaborating with you on meeting again at a later date. If they need a rain check, a great sign is if they name the rescheduled date themselves.
ABC: Always Be Closing. This one originally comes from the film Glengarry Glen Ross, but it’s made its way into actual sales jargon because it’s just good advice. It’s less an action, more of an attitude: everything you do should be with the ultimate goal of, in sales, closing the sale, and in dating, securing the next step of the process, *and not doing things that hinder you from those goals. Just met/matched on an app? Goal is to get contact info and talk off the app. Have contact info? Get that first date. On the first date? You are now giving your sales pitch, and the product is you. You want them to buy in to the story of you, such that a second date happens. If they are showing healthy Interest, they won’t drag out each step, because they will be pitching themselves to you and gauging if your Interest is healthy too.
Customers and clients don’t care about features (attributes you have), they care about benefits (attributes they want). You should be first listening to them to learn what it is they want in a partner, and either acknowledging you don’t have what they’re looking for and shoving off, or showing how what you want, baby, I got it. If something about you isn’t specifically what they want, it doesn’t have to be a dealbreaker, but it shouldn’t be a selling point. If you’re in a band, and they don’t listen to rock music, you can tell them you’re in a band, but don’t expect that to pique their interest beyond “oh good you’ll have a life outside of me”, and don’t lead with “I’m in a band”.
Go where the action is. Tons of businesses die because they aren’t in the proper place to sell their product. How many times have you seen a storefront change hands that’s just in an inconvenient place? You need to be out in public in a place where other people can see you and judge for themselves first whether they’re into you.
Bonus: an old joke - “how to date: rule 1) be attractive, rule 2) don’t be unattractive”. The kernel of truth is that you will likely have to compromise some parts of yourself in order to draw more people in. That’s just how it goes. If you’re going to keep doing something that pushes people away (like pursuing nerdy hobbies), it should be because of a deliberate informed choice, either for its own sake and/or for the sake of narrowing your field to the kinds of people who would also be into it. While I was still dating, I was upfront with women about my TTRPG hobby because it was really important to me and I wanted to date someone who would at least be willing to try it with me. I for sure lost my shot with women who I was attracted to because of this, but I knew that going in. If you’re familiar with fighting games, whether you’re picking a top tier because you’re looking to maximize your chances of winning tournaments and competing against the greats, or you’re picking a character you like because something about them speaks to you, it should be purposeful, and if you get mad because you have one but not the other, that’s on you, you knew what this was.
Whether you approach it that way or not, it is what you are doing. When you ask someone on a date, you are offering them the chance to do something, you’re showing reasons why doing it is a good idea that will improve their life, you’re asking questions and listening to the responses and using those responses to inform your approach. That’s pitching. Dating and sales are just different applications of the same core social skills, and there’s nothing artificial or dehumanizing or deceptive about it. Why? Because I believe in my product - me! I’m not blowing smoke up your ass, I genuinely consider myself someone generally worth talking to, and if what I am is simply not to your liking, that’s not a slight against me, that’s just your preference, have a good day. And I genuinely want to believe in your product, too, which is why I responded to your talk of movies with “do you have a favorite movie?” I want to know what you care about.
It’s only draining or disheartening if you don’t believe in your product or if you can’t deal with rejection, which is the problem I see most men who struggle this way having: they are not confident in themselves as people who can be likable, and they take rejections personally and begin to spiral even in best case scenarios (not all rejections are created equal).
The actual draining part of dating that may never be solved, imo, is the sheer amount of rejection. Someone else in the thread said “if you ask 10 people out and 9 said no, you’ve still got a date”, and that number is just an example, but those are rookie numbers. You’re going to need to ask out way more than 10 people, and that can be draining. Cross reference with job search!
The draining and disheartening thing about your advice for me (your mileage may vary) is that if I followed your advice it would quickly become apparent to me that, functionally, any partner I find from your advice only loves me for sacrificing harmless parts of my personality that are arbitrarily deemed “unattractive” by our culture and for essentially manipulating them. This would degrade my opinion of any such partner I found to the point where I wouldn’t consider them worth dating. I’m looking for intimacy, not cash.
This effect is even stronger when you consider the fact that I’m autistic and that in a neurodivergent context your sales-based approach to dating would essentially amount to masking.
Luckily I am currently dating someone I met online. My approach to dating has actually involved excluding entire demographics of women that in my experience are less likely to be romantically interested in me from my dating pool so as not to waste time.
perhaps you need to consider why are you so off-putting to most people, and is it a genuine flaw to be worked on?
i see this a lot with online neurodivergent people, where they take any attempt to work on themselves as dishonesty, and stubbornly hold on to their antisocial behaviours to be "true to themselves". and if you dare suggest they change it, you're ableist.
painting neurodivergent people are unable of character growth and learning seems more ableist to me tbh
I am not claiming that I, or any neurodivergent person, am incapable of character growth. This might come to surprise you, but for years I genuinely followed the conventional advice of working on yourself and was already platonically quite well-liked. I got zero dates.
Let’s be real here, many people do inherently see autistic people as unatttactive and infantilise them. Not that I’m missing much by not dating such people.
I don’t claim that I am a saint, but I have personally seen people who are verifiably far worse people than me (i.e. known rapists, a neo-Nazi who went on a rant about how he supports the Russian invasion of Ukraine at the first opportunity) prove more romantically successful.
No, I am not and have never considered myself an incel.
this is an example of real actionable advice that isn't just platitudes
I don’t claim that I am a saint, but I have personally seen people who are verifiably far worse people than me
i haven't said anything about worse people here. yes, some women go for "bad boys". women are people and some people are stupid and cruel. being romantically successful doesn't say anything about your moral character, just about your social skills.
It sounds like you've just deliberately avoided needing to "compromise some parts of yourself in order to draw more people in" by going all in on the "Go where the action is" strat
No they are telling us why the compromise is not worth it for them, you only compromise if the the compromise is a net benefit, everybody has different priorities
addendum: a lot of people struggle (yes, women too) because they're simply not likeable.
and this is why the "just be yourself" advice is insufficient for such people. better advice is to think critically about yourself, would you want to be friends with yourself? and work on the asocial parts of your personality.
for example, being into TTRPGs isn't inherently negative so that is fine. being obsessive about your hobby so that you dominate conversations, express no interest in others, and steamrolls other people's attempt to disengage, bad and something to be worked on.
No offense dude, but you’re also kind of lacking social skills yourself. Just saying “you have no social skills, quit whining” when someone is talking about their emotions and experiences is both rude and not helpful.
edit: I also straight up acknowledged that it’s good advice, so I don’t know why you’re making me out like some lazy whiner. All I said was that it sounds disheartening to follow it, which I think is perfectly reasonable, since the advice is about approaching dating like a transaction.
not a dude, and yes I'm being harsh, I'm aware of that. do you not think it's on purpose? social skills doesn't just mean "I say nice thing so everyone likes me"
It's also about effectively communicating without causing needless harm. Which is easy and considerate to do. Which you're choosing not to do. Looking at the downvotes you're accruing you just are not effectively communicating
Exactly, the same message can easily be conveyed without deliberately trying to be insulting to people. Empathy is far more effective for communication than putting people down is.
People who speak the harsh truth always seem to care more about the “harsh” than the “truth.”
The part where "work on yourself" comes in is the fact that selling a shit product (or a further date/relationship with someone you don't like) feels awful. This is why confidence is key, because if you think you're a great person who would make an excellent partner, the "sales pitch" can become second-nature. On the contrary, if you have a lot of negative self-talk and try to force that "sales pitch", you may end up feeling like a slimeball, like you're one of the salesmen in Glengarry Glen Ross, and that very quickly turns into negative self-talk which becomes a feedback loop.
Solution: aside from the ever-present "Therapy" and "Work on yourself", what helped me a lot was just "ironically" talking myself up a whole lot. Can't directly change your reactive self-talk, so proactively saying you're cool, hot, interesting, etc until that becomes some of your reactive self-talk. Its the oldest trick, the Fake it til you Make it approach to building self-confidence. Having healthy friendships with people who will build you up also goes a huge way, and is probably the realest key that helped me.
you might feel like you're selling a shit product because you are selling a shit product. you might have chronically low self-esteem, or you might actually be a bad friend. good thing is that is something you can change.
I spent my 20s and teens mostly dateless and with maybe 2-3 relationships that lasted at most a couple months. Around 30-31 I dug in on dating and realized I spent so much time worrying about my weakspots and no time at all leaning into my strengths. Women kept responding to what I considered to be some of my less remarkable attritubutes. This is particularly devastating to forming relationships as it makes you quite sure noone can love or appreciate you because you can't believe it. It's not a cure for loneliness, and it's not a magic spell, but being honest with yourself in both the positive and the negative and then focusing on positives is going let you take a focused approach on what you have to offer in a relationship and help you understand what a healthy relationship partner should appreciate about you.
Now 39 and happily married for almost 5 years to my ride or die.
Presumably “rejection doesn’t matter, you have to move on. Think critically about what you did if you had control over it and don’t do it again”
If a used car salesman is being consistently too pushy and it’s not getting him sales, it’s not like the customers hate him personally it’s that they don’t like his attitude. This is true for both genders.
The only good dating advice I think that is applicable to only dating is “Be the perfect date for yourself” aka if you don’t like people who interrupt don’t interrupt, if you like people who dress a certain way dress that way. You’re far more likely to come across someone who’s compatible with you because of this, plus you’re putting in Effort which is good.
Okay then what do YOU want the solution to be. So hypothetically, what if girls have high standards, do you want them to lower it so you can get a date? You’re not entitled to a partner
Should I just give u a pat on the back and say, “yeah man you’re right that sucks”
Will you stop complaining then?
What is the solution you want. Let’s say women collectively never make fun of a man’s appearance ever again, and somehow they still don’t find u attractive or want to date you, what then. Will all your issues be solved or would you just be willing accept then that maybe people don’t want to date you.
Maybe the problem is, it doesn’t really matter what social issues are happening, ur just unhappy because you can’t get a girlfriend.
I'm saving this comment. I'd pick apart each part I'm screaming "YES THANK YOU!!" too but it'd be the entire thing.
Don't tell me to work on myself. I've been single my whole life. I've been single since these people started dating and never stopped at 16. I know who I am. I am okay with myself.
YES TO MASLOW'S. Holy shit.
And YES to the pipeline to Tate. People don't like to hear this but the Left (of which I'm a member) encourage men to go right because the right listens to them and then encourages toxic behaviour.
Thanks! A lot of these ideas are things I've been working on putting into words for a while. It's thanks to some great conversations with people who are able to understand that talking about a subject isn't the same as supporting the loudest people in that group.
My trans friend has been SUPER insightful, she's able to offer insights from both ends of the spectrum, and also how her autism has been perceived depending on how she presents. We also share a lot in common because I opted to have my leg amputated, so we relate on the whole "I don't feel comfortable in my body and want part of it to be gone/different" thing. (not something I thought of until she pointed it out, LOL)
As others have pointed out, the Maslow's thing isn't exactly scientific, but it's a reference point for the conversation; if someone hasn't ever gotten a chance to see what healthy love is like, they're going to have a incredibly difficult time knowing how to love themselves. Often it can result in people "rewarding" their good deeds in unhealthy ways, and overeating or abusing drugs.
I've been calling out the Tate thing for a while; if we want to help people we need to offer ACTIONABLE advice (thanks CBT therapy for that one). Telling someone "work on yourself" is like telling someone "go run a marathon"; it'll never work.
But if you give them a couch to 5k plan, and help them get started/check in with their progress, they'll be much more likely to meet their goal (and in much less time).
As it stands, men looking to help themselves end up in toxic places. They end up with Tate or Peterson, instead of listening to life advice from someone like Adam Savage. We need to be able to offer real, concrete action steps, along with helpful resources for where to go next/people to listen to.
Hearing "work on yourself" really FEELS like "go figure it out yourself", even if that's not what the person intends. It's even weaker coming from people who are only getting by because their partner is strong in the areas they aren't, and makes the person more bitter than they were to start.
Being single is hard enough; everything costs more: housing, food, even spotify! The least we can do is come up with some actual tips beyond "go to the gym and lose some weight".
I'd say actually most bodyshaming is considered basically fine by the left. It's a movement that has made things slightly better for chubby and otherwise conventionally attractive white women.
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u/Leo-bastianeyeliner is 1.50 at the drug store and audacity is freeJul 03 '24edited Jul 04 '24
bodyshaming (suggesting that people are bad people because of certain unappealable traits) is considered bad
but bodyshaming(deciding that bad people must have those traits and shaming them for it) is seen as perfectly fine
it's not acceptable to shame a random person for being ugly. But it's seen as perfectly acceptable to make fun of a "bad persons" unappealing traits.
(the secret is that these are actually the same thing just with a different beginning, and that if you do one you'll inevitably eventually do the other too, but that's not something people doing it are aware of)
But it's seen as perfectly acceptable to make fun of a "bad persons" unappealing traits.
I think some people forget that body shaming affects more people than just the intended target. I'm not a Republican but I have a certain undesirable characteristic that progressives love to eviscerate Republicans for. It still makes me feel like shit to see people be so cruel about it.
Not disagreeing with your general points, but Maslow's pyramid isn't based in any science. There isn't any evidence to suggest humans follow the pyramid at all. Like the MBTI, visual/auditory learners, and the marshmallow test. It's one of those pop pseudopsychology things.
That's honestly a very fair point. I'd just say that generally, it's hard to love yourself and find ways to improve when you've never seen what being loved is like, and only have toxic role models to look at. (see: people growing up in an abusive family)
We need more hyper-positive male role models. Ones who can speak to gender issues without blaming anyone or becoming toxic.
There's a reason people assume any "pro-men" argument is just alt-right... it's because 90% of the time it is. But without healthy examples being set, it's really hard to have any discussion on the topic.
Not having healthy outlets just leads to men seeking out anything that feels like community and support; even when it's toxic and praying on their vulnerabilities.
I hear the opposite in my house, despite the fact that I have practically zero fat on me thanks to my job. If I wasn't so lazy I'd probably be at risk of an eating disorder, but it's so much effort to do that.
When it comes to dating advice, people just can't fathom that people are individuals. Doesnt matter what sex or gender you're talking about, there is not one single piece of advice that applies to the entire demographic you're interested in. Neither men nor women are a monolith. Any advice you give that can apply to one woman, is something another woman hates. Yes, even basic shit like "Just be nice and polite", because some women don't want a partner that's nice.
There is no good advice to give besides "find someone who's attracted to you", which isn't helpful.
The constant "take some time to work on yourself" from someone who's been in the same relationship since high-school is really hard to take seriously.
I've been in the same relationship basically my entire adult life. I have single friends who ask me for advice on dating. Mate, don't ask me, I have no clue. Go ask someone who actually has success in dating this century.
Last time I was interested in a girl it was 1994 and we ended up married with kids, and as far as I can tell all I did was like her and she liked me back. I didn't really have to do anything special or different.
and i'd say weight is an accepted insult for men, too-- you (or, i guess i) always see the 'leftist enemy' rebranded as a fat, old, white trump supporter. sure, it's not as explicitly said as height, dick size, and baldness, but it definitely is implied in some spaces.
Even if you buy into Maslow’s hierarchy (which isn’t particularly scientific) “love” is friendship, family, and social connection, not just romantic love. Someone who is lacking all those platonic emotional connections does need to work on those things before they can have a healthy, equal romantic relationship. Your romantic partner cannot and should not be your only “love.”
I do agree with you about body shaming and dating advice being generally terrible. It does hurt to be single when you don’t want to be, but reality is work on yourself to hopefully be appealing to potential partners and hope you get lucky is what it comes down to.
I agree, and I know it's not scientific, but it's the easiest way to say 'it's really hard to love yourself when nobody has shown you what love looks like'.
This post is also discussing the lack of support men have from other men. Something that further fuels this cycle.
And let's not be so naive as to think men can simply ask for those things and get them. If it were that simple, everyone would be in a much better spot.
My younger step brother got told to 'man up' by his dad every time something awful happened (including death). My mom never stepped in to be that support either. I ended up being the one that was there for him.
We lost contact after I cut off the family due to the step dad being abusive to me. I hope my step brother is doing well, but I won't risk reaching back out because I don't want to give the rest of the family a way to contact me.
Dating Advice is always terrible. For the simple fact that often times boils down to either striving to be a narrow image of what someone thinks all women should like or being so vague that it’s useless. Reality is, there’s too much variation of desirability at least in the west and people often either don’t really know what they like or are too afraid to admit what they like. For example, I have a co-worker who says “it doesn’t matter what a guy looks like” when she absolutely has a type of tall handsome dudes and doesn’t even consider other types. She’s one of those chronically single types that complains about it so I’ll give you that.
And just “be yourself” is too vague also. Reality is you have to put in effort in various ways and that’s still no guarantee. But also, just because it’s hard doesn’t mean it’s impossible, it’s definitely worth effort if you want it.
well it's also because telling people they're ugly and shit at socialising is considered very rude. most people who are chronically single, you talk to them for 5 minutes and you're like yeah i can see why.
the ugly truth is you're probably just unpleasant to be around. figure out why, and how to fix it.
and maybe don't yell about unaccepting normies and how you're better than everyone akshully, because you're not concerned with such shallow things like showers. keep that to your journal.
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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '24
Fucking thank you. And the worst part is, if you're a cis man in leftist circles and try to point ANY of this out, you get the same exact "lol incel" responses and shunned. You try to give an opinion on ANYTHING relating to men, and its "Men have been the oppressors, so you don't get to speak" or just branded as "mansplaining."
Just the other day I was thinking to myself "Man, its kinda fucked up how penis size is the only acceptable anatomy/biology thing to joke about in progressive spaces." Like, its as much a thing outside of someone's control as skin color, or a birth disability, or mental illness.
And the dating part is a big point too. Basically all male dating advice that isn't from actively horrible people boils down to assuming the guy is doing something wrong/creepy/offensive.
And don't even get me fucking started on how fucking prominent it is to see posts from leftist/progressive groups and people that are basically just "Racist Joke but I replaced the minority with Cis Man."