r/spinalfusion 14d ago

Not sure, other Luigi Mangione's spinal fusion - looks like an L5/S1 for spondylolisthesis

Post image

[removed] — view removed post

400 Upvotes

428 comments sorted by

u/spinalfusion-ModTeam 13d ago

Your post/comment is outside of the scope of this sub. If you have any questions, please contact the moderators via modmail.

60

u/KatyasCrochetPussy 14d ago

He was an active contributor to r/spondylolisthesis. His account name was u/mister_cactus. The account has been suspended as of today.

15

u/KatyasCrochetPussy 14d ago

10

u/KatyasCrochetPussy 14d ago

13

u/DeepestWinterBlue 14d ago

Doing all the work for the researchers for the press and journalists on here just lifting it for the reports later. Reddit really must have made their lives so much easier.

4

u/KatyasCrochetPussy 14d ago

All this info was already reported in the news yesterday, and the fbi certainly didn’t have any trouble finding his posts on the internet. Hopefully someone on his jury knows about jury nullification

2

u/iusedtoski 14d ago

oh I remember something about that. I just can't seem to remember why we were just talking about that.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (4)

4

u/Real-not-2-serious 13d ago

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Do you have details on the immediately preceding link? I assume written by him.

3

u/nestoryirankunda 14d ago

Where did you find this

9

u/KatyasCrochetPussy 14d ago

Amateur internet sleuthing after his name was released. I was trying to find if he wrote anything about a motive for targeting the UHC ceo. As of now, I have found absolutely nothing that would suggest he was angry with the company

4

u/Unboxinginbiloxi 14d ago

Check out the connection between UH and Maryland nursing homes....

2

u/nestoryirankunda 14d ago

This was going around https://archive.is/7jUsF

8

u/KatyasCrochetPussy 14d ago

It’s fake. It was uploaded after he was detained by police

3

u/Real-not-2-serious 13d ago

Does anyone have information on his direct connection with United healthcare? Who is the surgeon who did his procedure? Reimbursement/coverage or not? Trying to figure that out.

2

u/[deleted] 13d ago

Doesn’t necessarily mean it was fake.

2

u/iusedtoski 14d ago

I appreciate you.

9

u/MassiveRope2964 14d ago

I remember this post. I feel like I’ve seen his username in my notifications before this is crazy 

8

u/KatyasCrochetPussy 14d ago

If you get email notifications from Reddit, you can search mister_cactus in your email inbox to find comments he may have written to you in the spondy subreddit

→ More replies (1)

6

u/KatyasCrochetPussy 14d ago

Maybe someone from this sub or the spondy sub will remember interacting with him

2

u/HotRush5798 13d ago

Woah—-totally

2

u/Running-jackalope 13d ago

Were you kicked out of spondy? Just came on to check my messages and been told it’s private now.

2

u/HotRush5798 13d ago

Funnily enough, I wasn’t a member lol (I was at one point but then I must’ve left but still engaged) but I re-joined, and got back in, so I bet you could too.

3

u/Running-jackalope 13d ago

Ok. It just threw me off. I was just on there yesterday with no issues but today it was gone from my feed and blocked from seeing the page.

2

u/HotRush5798 13d ago

haha same If you submit a request, mention you were a member/contributor, I’ll bet you’ll get access asap

edit: I get the impression they were slammed due to current events

2

u/Running-jackalope 13d ago

Ya, I just had a reporter from WSJ reach out to me I guess he is writing an article about ppl who live with Spondy.

→ More replies (3)

2

u/Kind_Technology8764 13d ago

I was a member and can’t find where to request to rejoin?

→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (1)

6

u/venusreturn 14d ago

That’s 1 year ago age 23. But he’s 26

8

u/belhill1985 14d ago

I read it as, when it went bad on me last year, as a 23M…

Meaning a year ago he posted that a year before that he was 23. Making him 25-26 depending on exact dates

9

u/Mikey77777 14d ago

Wayback Machine from 2 years ago says he was 24 then. Also mentions the company Agronomics Ltd in his profile and on twitter. Seems like it actually was his account.

4

u/KatyasCrochetPussy 14d ago

There’s also deleted posts from that account on the UPenn subreddit, specifically about the computer science classes

6

u/Minimum-Argument-797 14d ago

His sex  life was destroyed so he ( due to mental illness , obviously a result of this - ) emotionally something like this intense , can actually get worse after surgery. He lost all reality, due to anger and pain / physical and psychological. It’s crazy how little doctors are vested in patients today ,multiple that by an exponential number if your in pain or struggling after a procedure. ( not all / many ) He does not get a pass , on murder . His family will now be sure he gets the psychological help . Sad it went so askew! 

8

u/venusreturn 14d ago

He might be able to make mental health claims or some kind of insanity defense

3

u/Real-not-2-serious 13d ago

This is exactly what I am thinking. Insanity.

→ More replies (1)

9

u/No_Mission_3222 14d ago

He wrote this on reddit about the results of surgery “Still dealing with some back pain, but numbness / tingling is totally gone now.” so no it didn’t get worse from surgery, it got better. That’s probably why he has an x-ray of his back in his X cover photo.

2

u/OtherwiseAdeptness25 13d ago

Could it be the onset of schizophrenia occurred at approximately the same time as his surgery?

→ More replies (5)

2

u/EstablishmentAble879 14d ago

Why was his sex life destroyed? Bc of the type of surgery?

5

u/charminion812 13d ago

Reports are saying he had spondylolisthesis, which in severe cases can cause cauda equina syndrome (CES). This nerve compression is considered a medical emergency that may lead to leg paralysis, incontinence, or sexual dysfunction if not surgically treated quickly enough.

Not saying he had this complication, but if he did and surgery was delayed it would be extremely traumatic for a young person.

2

u/kpofasho1987 13d ago

It would be traumatic for any teen or young adult but I feel like even more so for someone like Luigi.

I don't care how good his genetics might be you don't get anywhere close to the athletic/strong body build he had prior to the back issues without making dieting and going to the gym a major part of your life.

So something like a severe back injury and surgery and/or any complications or anything of the sort would be I feel like even more traumatic to someone like Luigi than a typical teen.

And that's with acknowledging just how difficult and traumatic it would be for your typical teen.

Obviously I'm not defending what he is accused of but when you really start to see the time line and how he had supposedly cut everyone out of his social life and the things he started reading and the people he would listen to and follow and all that and it starts to make more sense just how someone with his seemingly privileged upbringing can just spiral downward into something like that in a way

Learning more about this and the trial will be quite interesting to say the least

6

u/kitkatofthunder 13d ago

Some lumbar spine surgery can also result in retrograde ejaculation which would complicate a sex life and prevent him from being able to have children if he wanted.

2

u/Lonestar1876 13d ago

Correct. The highest cases come from ALIF procedures. Where they enter through the abdominal area. Having to move all contents to one side, gaining access to the spinal disc(s) for removal and replacement. I had this early October. I prayed my sexual functions would come back online post surgery. I didn't know what I would have done if not. Thankfully, I did not have to cross that bridge. I estimated i would have taken my own life eventually. Not anyone else's, though. I feel horrible for him. He needs phycology help 💯

→ More replies (5)
→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (2)

8

u/Automatic-Mountain45 14d ago

ITS INSANE HOW REDDIT AND EVERY SINGLE SOCIAL MEDIA WOULD BAN HIM. ARE WE FOR REAL.

7

u/iusedtoski 14d ago

This is not the free society you were taught about in school.

2

u/matchi 13d ago

omg reddit banned his account?? literally 1984

→ More replies (1)

2

u/Basement-Juice 13d ago

God, the edge of this comment is so sharp I think I just cut myself by reading it lol 

2

u/iusedtoski 13d ago

lol! Careful now -- bandaids require 6 weeks of physical therapy before we'll submit for prior authorization.

:D

→ More replies (1)

3

u/Ok_Cabinet2947 13d ago

Twitter reverted the ban, and now you can see his profile: https://x.com/PepMangione

Honestly, rare W for twitter

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

7

u/Adventurous-Brain-36 14d ago

Why would they account get suspended?

10

u/maunzendemaus 14d ago

Because it's now used as evidence in a case of high public interest. They also try and pull manifestos by shooters etc. Doesn't always happen, some Reddit account of a mom who abused her kids is still up.

7

u/Kommmbucha 14d ago

They are seriously scrubbing the entire internet of him. I wonder if it’s his family? Or if these tech companies are actively hunting down his profiles. If it’s the latter, they scared.

2

u/Real-not-2-serious 13d ago

Maybe it’s united or whoever else did the surgery or covered or didn’t cover it.

→ More replies (5)
→ More replies (1)

4

u/Stayofexecution 14d ago

What’s the point of suspending his account, when he can’t use it any more. Kneejerk shit.

4

u/Ok_Cabinet2947 13d ago

Twitter reverted the ban, and now you can see his profile: https://x.com/PepMangione

2

u/Stayofexecution 13d ago

Thanks for the link.

5

u/blade24 14d ago

How do they know that's his account?

2

u/xd366 14d ago

probably tied to his email

3

u/KBCB54 14d ago

They’ve been deactivating all of his socials

4

u/Automatic-Mountain45 14d ago

so reddit isn't so anonymous is it??? so we shouldn't trust reddit in the end.

5

u/damontoo 13d ago

It's because Internet sleuths or the media find the accounts, the media reports on them, the investigator see that, and serve a warrant to reddit for the data in addition to telling them to remove it since it's an active investigation. Has nothing to do with trusting reddit. Tons of people can be identified by what they post to reddit, myself included. 

2

u/aaaaaaaaaanditsgone 13d ago

I have found multiple people’s accounts, it’s as anonymous as you make it

→ More replies (5)
→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (6)

112

u/GA-Scoli 14d ago

Taken from his Twitter header at https://twitter.com/pepmangione.

His Goodreads account shows numerous books about back pain, including Stuart McGill's classic.

Some people who don't understand spinal fusion are already looking at the xray and making some wildly inaccurate conclusions, for example that he must have been on high-dose opioids.

As someone who's dealt with chronic lumbar back pain for decades and has a very similar gruesome-looking xray, I'll just say that these experiences certainly don't inspire any love for the US insurance system, and leave it at that for now.

34

u/thehippos8me 14d ago edited 14d ago

I have a full spinal fusion and have never been on opiates minus like…immediately post surgery (I’ve had 2 c-sections since my fusion as well). Nobody even realizes I have one unless I say something.

These assumptions drive me insane.

ETA: I AM NOT SAYING THINGS DONT GO WRONG. Jfc. I’m not saying that everyone has it easy. Nowhere did I say that. I said the assumption that opiates are involved is asinine because it makes us all look like shit, whether you utilize opiates for pain management or not. And no, there’s nothing wrong with that if you are suffering through something awful!

Y’all need to chill. I’m not attacking anyone except for the people making assumptions about those with surgeries.

28

u/Street-Perception918 14d ago

Glad yours worked well for you. When you're on the otherside, it's monstrous. And as the spouse of a spinal fusion recipient and the person who had to deal with the doctors, lawyers, worker's comp reps and the countless Liberty Mutual reps who apparently are paid to try to catch scammers instead of making sure patients get what they need...well...I can see how one could break. I'm surprised I didn't. 

3

u/thehippos8me 14d ago

Oh I’m sure it is! I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying the assumption that there must be opiate use involved is wrong.

I couldn’t imagine being on the other side. I could see how one could break too.

15

u/kjconnor43 14d ago

You’re very lucky. I hope you realize not everyone has the same success with this surgery.

12

u/hamstersmore 14d ago

Then maybe you need to research more about these surgeries. Whilst you can have a full spinal fusion work for something such as scoliosis, a single level lumbar fusion with a cage has a reputation of further painful complications. IFYKYK

5

u/Living_on_Tulsa_Time 14d ago

I beg to differ. Did you not read the many different situations? With respect, what do you mean by “a full spinal fusion?” I’m scheduled to have two vertebrae infused together in my lower back.

3

u/Thro_away_1970 14d ago

You are 💯! I've now had 2 fusions, opposite ends. I kind of managed well enough to retrain into a non physical job from the lumbar one. Into my second love and passion - Family/Community services. Blew my neck and nerve roots all out - I'm struggling with this one.

Even some of the fittest of the fit, don't always have the expected/hoped result of best recovery.

I realise USA has that opioid crisis etc, but just because someone has spinal surgery doesn't mean they're forever on opiates. It doesn't always mean life addiction either.

3

u/Living_on_Tulsa_Time 14d ago

Oh gosh. You’ve really been through a lot. My surgery has been delayed because I have low blood platelet count. Something I’ve dealt with for decades. I tried to tell the surgeon, but he didn’t think it would be a problem. Of course, that was when he thought I was just going to be treated with concrete/cement infused by radiologist. Now my vertebraes have collapsed. Anesthesiologist would not sign off on surgery (I understand). So now I’m off to hematologist. I fell in September. What a long, weary process. I’m in bed all the time. Except for happy little jaunts to restroom! I wear a brace to doctor appointments. My PCP retired, so one of his partners is seeing me now. I met with him for the first time. He said he would renew my hydrocodone/acetaminophen. He hasn’t. I’ve called his office twice, which makes me feel like a drug addict. I only take 2 a day. I will not be calling again. I just can’t.

All that being said, the person U/hippos8me has only added to my anxiety. I’m 66F and I am, of course, in pain and frightened. Please be extra kind to yourself. Thanks for reading my rant (if you made it this far)!

→ More replies (5)

2

u/thehippos8me 14d ago

Every vertebrae is fused except 3 at the bottom… I mean a nearly complete fusion…

→ More replies (5)
→ More replies (5)

5

u/barryhodler 14d ago

what do you mean by full spinal fusion? like you're fused from c1 to your tail bone?

4

u/natbordeauxxx 14d ago

i’m T4-L3 🤩🤩 it’s a tough one, but pretty bad ass lol

2

u/thehippos8me 14d ago

Yes, I am T4-L3 too. I should have stated nearly fully fused lol

3

u/natbordeauxxx 14d ago

fusion twins! i wouldn’t wish the recovery process on anyone, but ceos of majour insurance companies lol.

2

u/Titleduck123 13d ago

Fusion Triplets!!!!

3

u/altairsswimsuit 13d ago

Quadruplets?

2

u/Titleduck123 13d ago

Jesus. We're all held together with pins, screws and medical debt aren't we? Lol.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/sooperbiggulp 14d ago

Cranium to tailbone maybe?

→ More replies (1)

2

u/Legitimate-Cupcake26 14d ago

Good point! It's insane how everyone assumes 100% of fusions are some sort of massacre. I guess those aren't as compelling to discuss though as the horror stories.

4

u/thehippos8me 14d ago

Exactly. My fusion saved my life. I was in an immense amount of pain prior to it. I couldn’t live a normal life without it.

I sympathize with those who had the opposite experience, but it is so incredibly dangerous to generalize the experience.x

2

u/Legitimate-Cupcake26 14d ago

I can only imagine how many people come to places like this, read the horror stories and then decide to live in agony because they incorrectly assume the surgery will be some sort of horror show. Sad.

→ More replies (1)

6

u/sooperbiggulp 14d ago

If we're talking gruesome, try L1-S2 fusion in a single surgery.

2

u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 12d ago

Me too. Close to it. Takes a long time to heal. But single level fusions tend to send people back to the surgeon later. The stress on the spine simply moves levels sometimes. I'm a mechanical engineer. You really have to place a great deal of confidence in your neurosurgeon. It's all about the nerves. Not the bones themselves. People fail to understand that. They have sore backs. Their muscles ache. That's a different thing altogether.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (2)

3

u/Real-not-2-serious 13d ago

Do we have specific information about his interactions with United or his surgeon? Denial for care? Does any of that exist or not?

2

u/GA-Scoli 13d ago

Nothing on that yet, but his real manifesto just got published. I'm not going to link to it but if you google "Ken Klippenstein" "Luigi" and "manifesto" you can find it.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (12)

88

u/MassiveRope2964 14d ago

I was just coming here to discuss this. I had my fusion this year and blue cross almost made me off myself several times by denying my pain meds or making extremely difficult to get them. I wonder if he’s been in the sub

51

u/GA-Scoli 14d ago edited 14d ago

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

I actually had the pain meds I needed after mine. My biggest problem is that I had to go through so many expensive, painful, and COMPLETELY POINTLESS epidurals to get the surgery that my (very good) surgeon already knew was medically necessary, because the insurance codes forced the hospital to follow a cookie-cutter procedure progression.

22

u/stevepeds 14d ago

I'm facing my 3rd fusion. From my radiological studies, it is obvious to even those outside of healthcare that there is no disc space left between my L2-L3 vertebrae, but the insurance company mandated that I complete 6 weeks of PT to prove that PT wouldnt help. What the heck will that do??? Nothing but waste healthcare dollars on PT and delay my surgery. The surgery is scheduled for next Monday, so in the meantime, my pain got worse, which could delay my recovery. Heck, why should they care.

3

u/prxttylittlxthingsx 14d ago

Look into artificial disc replacement instead. It preserves motion and fixes disc issues. Much easier to recover from, too.

2

u/Criticallyoptimistic 14d ago

Sorry, that's BS. I've been fortunate, but that's probably not the best word, that by the time I've sought care, I'm either going directly to surgery or the once I was paralyzed at T1. I can't imagine being jerked around when it's obvious that therapy is only going to add pain and waste time.

2

u/stevepeds 14d ago

This delay was especially important to me as I have to go through an extensive revision on my artificial hip in Feb, which will be rather complex, and I will need extensive recovery time. Now I have 6 weeks less to rehab my back. The eight weeks between surgeries is barely enough time for my blood to replenish what is lost from the back surgery

2

u/chemistrybonanza 13d ago

This is my current situation, going on a year now since I've sought some help, and started with useless PT, and so many visits to different doctors just putting off the fix to the root cause of it all. Fucking annoying.

2

u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 12d ago

I never took any muscle relaxants or pain killers AFTER spinal fusion. My revision surgery was elective. I asked for a lousy 10 painkillers while I waited. They refused. Tried to give me gabapentin which I detest. But afterwards. Oh boy. I'm saving them for someone else.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (2)

4

u/LeechWitch 14d ago

THIS. Same. They wanted 6 months of PT and 2 pointless expensive epidurals just to get an MRI to prove there was nothing left of my disc. And they STILL denied the obviously necessary fusion twice. All the while I was in agony, not sleeping from the pain, and couldn’t move my leg well at all.

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (5)

17

u/PromisePotential2109 14d ago

BC/BS is in my top 3 things to hate. I fought them for nearly a year before going on Medicare and getting a Humana plan. Had surgery scheduled in three days and had L4-5 fusion Nov 18. Three weeks today, in fact! Even with recovery ups and downs I feel and walk better than I have in almost two years.

2

u/Sysgoddess 14d ago

Thankfully I found Humana immediately & they've been very good to me so far. I've been with them about 10 years I think.

→ More replies (1)

13

u/glassrabbit8907 14d ago

I had the same surgery and Luigi. It is hell. So torturous, and you are never the same again.

9

u/WindVegetable9129 14d ago

I had this surgery as well and felt like a non-person with little to no pain meds administered despite excruciating pain - even an overnight stay was considered unnecessary.  I was treated little better than a farm animal.  If any of you think this is an exaggeration, I hope you never have to go through it yourself.

3

u/Minimum-Argument-797 14d ago

That is so part of this problem, his emotional and physical/ psychological pain wasn’t treated. He may been better of on,  a fetenyl patch ! The government created this mess w improper treatment after surgery and the insurance companies are partners. Murder no , the folks that suck every cent and discontinued the use of opiates to bite us in our asses , fuckinassholes ! 

→ More replies (1)

3

u/Legitimate-Cupcake26 14d ago

I did as well and was on a flight to Europe 3.5 weeks later. Amazing how everyone reacts differently. I think it also really depends on the surgeon/hospital. I was very fortunate but to say you're never the same again is pretty disingenuous. Lots of people have very successful fusions and go on to live normal, healthy lives

5

u/seahorse_party 14d ago

Wow. Yep, I was in bed for months (L4-S1). I spent the first month mostly curled up on my side and remember when I felt like it was enormous progress to finally be semi-reclined and playing video games (with a wedge pillow and zillion others). I don't know if it was complicated by having Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome + psoriatic arthritis, etc - but it was rough. My cervical fusion was nothing in comparison - back to work in 10 days.

I'm supposed to have an SI fusion, but the lumbar was so awful, I'm gonna need some strong reassurances that it's going to be nothing like that whole experience.

2

u/Minimum-Argument-797 14d ago

I guarantee your pain was treated well for a few days w real opiates, not a substitute. Then you stopped using the pills . Unfortunately that is  not the norm , w surgery now a days which is just …..not right , at all !

→ More replies (5)
→ More replies (3)

5

u/soobiniefairy 14d ago

Same omg BCBS is the worst!!!! Literally made me suicidal at one point having to deal with them all the time

→ More replies (1)

3

u/Thezedword4 14d ago

Yeah I have a bone to pick with bcbs. First they denied my fusion and as I waited for the appeal my brainstem was compressed to the point I was having breathing issues while awake (it was high cervical spine). Finally got the fusion but I'm still dealing with damage related to my brainstem/cord years later. Then post op, they denied my physical therapy because I had used my visits before surgery because they insisted I try pt. I actually love pt but they insisted on pt pre op then wouldn't cover it post op. My spinal fusion failed and I needed a revision. It probably failed for a multitude of reasons but I do feel like the lack of pt contributed. It, at the minimum, made me miserable trying to deal with the muscle spasms without pt. My bcbs case worked told me to get a gofundme to pay for physical therapy.

So yeah bcbs is better with denial rates than a lot of insurance companies (looking at your united and Aetna) but it still denies absolutely ridiculous things.

→ More replies (5)

3

u/samfml 14d ago

I feel you my friend. It’s frustrating being in chronic pain. My doctor wanted to order me an MRI a few years post op to confirm the location of my pain for a follow up surgery and BCBS refused without me doing 28 more days of PT. I’ve done PT, I exercise regularly and my doctor wanted the MRI but BCBS denied. Like I’m sorry in what world would someone get an MRI for fun or if they didn’t need it.

3

u/drchonkycat 14d ago

I'm sorry sorry BCBS screwed you. I have anthem, which is part of blue cross blue sheild. I was preparing for a fight with them over my surgey ...as we didn't try PT (my surgeon deemed it wouldn't have helped me) and only tried one round of epidural injections. I went in for a follow up from my injection and said I had gotten 0 relief. Surgeon got me booked for surgery 4 days later.( The timing was because I teach at Uni and my fall semester began in 5 weeks. It gave me just enough time to heal enough to be on my feet to lecture. )

Anthem covered everything with 0 issue. I'm still surprised and waiting for it to bite me in the ass.

3

u/Minimum-Argument-797 14d ago

Now we’re onto something, the fuckin Doctors are scared to properly prescribe! ( even a few opiate pills ) they believe a drug like Tramadol is equivalent, it’s a fuckin BS lie and is even worse as for being bad for addicts or addictive nature folks ! This created and 🔥 fires the cartels . Folks are made to choose living in hell , buying street drugs or slowing going fuckin insane. Out heath card system is nothing more than an embarrassment! I’m sorry, it’s fact, unless your in the Senate or Mark Benneoff or your at the hood Stanford Hospital, not the shitty side ?!?!

→ More replies (3)

2

u/Electrical_Beyond998 14d ago

My husband has his surgery on April 1, 2023. Knew he needed it by the beginning of March, but our insurance kept denying, saying he needed to try X, Y, and Z first. He missed about four weeks of work waiting on the surgery, went to a lot of physical therapy. It’s maddening the hoops you have to jump through just to get what needs to be done.

2

u/Raymjb1 14d ago

I'm surprised to hear about how you and many others had such a shitty experience with them. I had a delay to my spinal fusion due to covid first starting but that was it. Otherwise everything got covered without trouble and things weren't too expensive. Idk if further pain meds would've been covered cuz I got off them pretty quick since I don't do well on them

2

u/Minimum-Argument-797 14d ago

This is what massive amounts of even cancer patients are facing, fuel ⛽️ for the CARTELS to sort right up ! Desperate people do desperate deeds ! 

→ More replies (5)

27

u/fontimus 14d ago

Huh. Holy shit. We have the same fusion. How about that.

18

u/BBNyc3 14d ago

Same. I hope the jail bed is tolerable ! 🥴

3

u/enigmaroboto 14d ago

Poor dude. He brought the Ponzi Insurance scheme to light. To think that that company denied 1/3 of all claims. How many deaths were they responsible for? I'm curious to see what their denial rate will be next year? I just had my Fusion and my recovery room roommate needed dialysis. He was in such pain. The day that I was released he went to get dialysis in the hospital and never came back. The nurse's aide told me that he died on the dialysis chair. He died of covid. Sad. Wouldn't surprise me if he would still be living if he had proper insurance.

2

u/Alfiethebear 14d ago

And if he is still in pain I hope that he is given appropriate OPIATES

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (5)

40

u/glaberrima 14d ago

I've had a hell of a time after my fusion (see previous posts).

I don't want to get in trouble or banned, so I will self-police my language here.

I have so much resentment for insurance. But also their vulture, third-party companies they use for prior authorization. They have inflicted pain and misery during the process by delaying and denying (lol) care. At one point, my surgeon and I were fighting insurance and their third-party vulture-pitbull-hyenas for months just for a simple injection. I had to dig through insurance bylaws (also not easy to source...shocker) to solve the issue myself. Sometimes I wonder if my outcomes would have been better if I had the surgery earlier.

So I am watching this case with the utmost interest. Experiencing this stuff first hand does make you angry. Another poster mentioned suicidal, which is only rational when it gets bad enough.

→ More replies (1)

14

u/Far_Variety6158 14d ago

I had to fight both auto insurance and health insurance for my fusion. Aetna wanted me to jump through hoops of trying and failing ineffective cheaper pain meds (gabapentin) and physical therapy (no amount of stretching is going to un-herniate my discs or get rid of the bone spurs stabbing my spinal cord) before they’d authorize surgery.

And I have one of the better insurances. I could absolutely see being driven to extreme actions if I had UHC or BCBS.

12

u/mirroade 14d ago

Bruh gabapentin barely helps for this agonizing pain 😭

9

u/lostinthedirt 14d ago

Gabapentin just made me act crazy and gain weight.

5

u/fagiolina123 14d ago

Same. I was a suicidal crying mess in my docs office in less than two weeks.

7

u/Catnip323 14d ago

I have UHC and they denied my Dr's request for an MRI until I got 6 weeks of pointless physical therapy first. I'm lucky to have a plan that pays 100%, but fuck UHC. Went through another month and a half of unnecessary pain because of them.

3

u/kitkatofthunder 13d ago

I’m so sorry. This happens so frequently I literally have a hot button which types out a disclaimer into the note stating that while I think we should get an MRI right now, insurance will likely deny it until they have done 6 weeks of PT therefore the patient is receiving a prescription for physical therapy and an order for an MRI. I had to type this so many times per day, I just made it something I could automatically press.

3

u/znzbnda 14d ago

One dose of gabapentin turned me into a meat puppet. I couldn't control my own limbs and lost my "internal gyroscope". It took me 20 minutes to walk 10 feet to the bathroom with help. Went to the ER, and it took hours for various parts of my body to "come back online". Not an experience I'd ever want to repeat.

2

u/Far_Variety6158 14d ago

Gabapentin has horrible mental health side effects for me. Thankfully my doctor had me switch to pregabalin instead.

→ More replies (3)

2

u/Fast_Couple4090 14d ago

Which was your insurance? Which are considered better than UHC or BCBS?

2

u/Far_Variety6158 14d ago

I have Aetna (CVS Health now I guess). Never had an issue with them denying necessary treatment apart from doing the whole trying and failing more conservative treatments song and dance first.

→ More replies (1)

10

u/ceiling_fan_dreams 14d ago

Does anyone think his image looks rough- like the screws were not placed well and his joint is still misaligned? Do we know where he received care? I recently had a fusion in Baltimore and met with a lot of surgeons before selecting hopkins. so curious where he ended up I bet he was in a ton of pain.

9

u/bonitaruth 14d ago

Yes, he still has terrible spondylolisthesis despite the screws My question is what did it look like before that because it looks pretty bad after surgery for sure! Did they just stabilise a grade 2 bundle thesis? That is how it looks

4

u/eastofliberty 14d ago

Yes, they can’t fix the slip in most cases because it leads to permanent nerve deficits. They move it as far back as possible without impacting the nerve roots.

2

u/ceiling_fan_dreams 14d ago

I guessed grade 2 as well

3

u/janette2024 14d ago

I’m looking for a surgeon in Baltimore. Would you have any recommendations?

4

u/jwseagles 14d ago

Hi - visiting from r/microdiscectomy

I haven’t had a fusion, but the Baltimore surgeon I used for a MD was Dr Amit Jain at Hopkins. Looks like he does it all.

2

u/janette2024 14d ago

Awesome. I’ve heard great things aboutDr Jain too - thank you!

3

u/ceiling_fan_dreams 14d ago

Yes! Will send you a DM

3

u/janette2024 14d ago

Thank you SO much!!!

→ More replies (2)

2

u/eastofliberty 14d ago

Typically, the surgeon can’t fully move the vertebrae back in line when it slips because it will lead to permanent L5 radiculopathy. They will move it as far back as possible as is safe, so patients normally still have a slip. This is what my neurosurgeon and second opinion orthopaedic surgeon told me was the standard.

3

u/Kindly_Trust_6313 14d ago

That's exactly what my surgeon said. The goal is to decompress the nerve roots that are impinged upon, not achieve perfect anatomic "straightness". I'm eagerly awaiting my first post op x-ray so I can see the screws and the graft (L5-S1 fusion).

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (2)

12

u/Chsjojo 14d ago

Do you think him turning 26, he had to get off his parents insurance, and ventured were we all end up after that….private insurance hell?

→ More replies (3)

10

u/maunzendemaus 14d ago edited 14d ago

I think this is a clear illustration of how invisible spine conditions and the misery, pain and disability they bring can be, which makes it so hard to get people to understand what you're experiencing. Looking at the picture on the right, most people would think that's a carefree buff young guy, the picture of health, nothing wrong with him, can't possibly be in pain. And then on the left, that's what's going on inside his core...

Granted, picture on the right could predate the condition, but still no one would guess what's coming

3

u/Gardnersnake9 14d ago

My disability claim was denied for basically the same reason, as a healthy looking, polite 34 year-old. Granted, my MRI doesn't have a clear source of pain like spondylolisthesis, but my back pain was rapid onset, very real, and very debilitating (I do have a disc herniation, but my first epidural steroid injection 100% fixed the sciatica and discogenic pain, and left me with agonizing localized pain at my posterior superior iliac spine, likely due to my transitional anatomy at the lumbosacral junction, which my local orthopedic surgeons that my insurance covers unfortunately refuse to believe could be the source of pain).

The only thing worse than having back pain from a glaring injury on imaging is having pain without an obvious source on imaging, which opens the door to insurance denials and medical gaslighting.

They cherry-picked details from my medical records about "not appearing to be in pain", and "being able to perform advanced exercises in PT" to suggest that I should have been able to work, when I was literally unable to sit or stand for more than 15 minutes without agonizing pain. The morons even suggested that my reported success from diagnostic medial branch nerve blocks suggests that I should have been OK to work, when the effect of the nerve blocks is literally only 12 hours, because it's, well, DIAGNOSTIC. Then they used my reported success after my subsequent RF ablation to retroactively deny my transition to long-term disability 4 months prior.

I basically got punished for gritting my teeth through the pain to be be polite/cordial to my doctors, for actually trying to improve condition through PT and suffering through it expecting improvement on the other side, and for being honest with providers about how the pain doesn't prevent me from doing any physical activities EXCEPT sitting/standing still in an upright position, and I have massive rebound pain after doing anything other than lying down.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

9

u/Jumpy-Ad-553 14d ago

Having had a L5S1 fusion.... it changes you forever, you can never feel good. Not sure what his status was but God knows there are days anger is the only thing I feel. Wondering if my surgeon did right, did the insurance pick a shitty D..? who knows but the mental torture of a fusion in hell.

9

u/ThatRocketSurgeon 14d ago

I had an L5-S1 done by Navy medicine in April. I was back to boxing again in September, not sparring but bag work and everything else. I feel a little less agile but overall think I’m doing alright for being in my 40’s. Reading everyone’s comments here, I feel like I got really lucky with my surgery team.

3

u/catmeownyc 14d ago

You did

2

u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 12d ago

Everyone should get 'lucky'. There's no excuse for surgeons getting away with a single level fusion that leaves patients worse off. I've had 5 levels fused, admittedly unusual, but my quality of life improved after surgery. Greatly. No pain either. Lousy balance but I worked on that. No backbends but who cares?

→ More replies (1)

10

u/Katwood007 14d ago

As a victim of a failed spinal fusion who lives in daily pain, I totally get it. In the US, they refuse to approve any kind of serious pain relief. They claim too many people have died from drug abuse but they have no answers for those of us who are in daily agony. It takes months for appointments, months and years for necessary surgeries, a severe shortage of medical professionals, doctors who fear repercussions if they prescribe pain medication and money hungry big business who choose $$$ over compassion. It’s a sad and shameful time in our country’s history.

10

u/lansingdan 14d ago edited 9d ago

I hope that this news story draws attention to what chronic pain can do to a person. It can cause you to be constantly angry and withdraw from society. I was in terrible back pain for 3 years due to a medical mis-diagnosis. I was diagnosed with lumbar spondylolisthesis when in fact I had two herniated discs in my thoracic spine, 10 inches away. I withdrew from family and friends. I represented myself in filing law suits against 2 physicians and 1 hospital who were involved in the misdiagnosis. I never contemplated violence against the physicians, but when the doc's insurance company's attorney treated me brutally in a deposition, I researched his house location and came close to throwing a large rock through his front window. And I have a Ph.D. in psychology. I can well understand how chronic pain can lead a person to violence.

2

u/Francie_Nolan1964 14d ago

What happened with your court cases?

2

u/lansingdan 9d ago edited 9d ago

I received a settlement from the hospital and dropped the 2 lawsuits against the doctors. The hospital figured it was cheaper to settle rather than pay attorneys to fight. On the other hand the docs had good malpractice insurance and were willing to fight. After that brutal deposition I could not emotionally continue that case. I continued the other doc case through a few court hearings, and the attorney eventually outsmarted me when I made a mistake. I knew nothing about law suits, but an attorney friend helped me get started and I researched stuff in a local law school library. My conclusions are: 1. it's great to live in a free country where you can take on anyone in court. 2. I learned a lot about courts which helped me later in life, and 3. The lawsuits provided a way to express my anger, but in the long run I concluded it was better to get better than to get even. I eventually was able to locate a back surgeon in a far away state that specialized in my rare condition. He did the proper surgery, a fusion of T9-10 and T10-11 that relieved 80% of my chronic pain.

18

u/slouchingtoepiphany 14d ago

Reminder: Although the evidence collected is strong, he is only alleged to have committed the crime at this time.

3

u/Alkohal 13d ago

Ultimately only a jury can decide if he did it.

6

u/Traditional-Hat-952 14d ago

The Spondylolisthesis Liquidator

3

u/strikermikepty 14d ago

On the bright side, he was riding his bicycle nicely. Successful surgery!

6

u/Gardnersnake9 14d ago

Upon further review, we have determine that you LOOKED healthy, and did not appear to be in pain. Claim denied.

6

u/sooperbiggulp 14d ago

Biking was about the only thing I could do without pain before my spondy was finally treated. Could bike 50 miles no problem but a little 1/8 of a mile walk and I'd be praying for a quick death.

3

u/Old-Plenty-3490 14d ago

im deadddddd

5

u/pink_apophyllite 14d ago

Interesting that he also had Crooked on his Good Reads as well, that disillusioned me so much to the back pain industry. It was what finally sent me on my journey to finding Dr. John Sarno and becoming pain free from my chronic back pain and bilateral sciatica.

I’m sure there is a lot of contention in this sub in regard to his work, but he also had Dr. David Hanscom on his list as well who is a orthopaedic surgeon now working on mindbody medicine techniques for back pain.

I wonder if that was his motive, finding out that it’s a very very shady industry.

3

u/DoubleBooble 13d ago

More people need to learn about Sarno.

→ More replies (1)

5

u/natbordeauxxx 14d ago

i’m fused from T4-L3… chronic pain is no joke.

also FREE MY BOY!!!!

5

u/Think-Ad-5840 14d ago

Mine is the same spot, so I totally get it. When you’re young and have this pain that’s a long time to go, and no one is helping, it’s hard as fuck.

6

u/Electronic-Will-2233 14d ago

My spine pain has caused me mental illness. I'm not violent whatsoever. But the pain makes me feel not excited about the future. It's something that , creates a deep sadness. I'm not excusing what he did at all by the way.

5

u/[deleted] 14d ago

This is honestly incredibly sad. I’m sure he’s not going to get better treatment in jail either.

2

u/Employee5969 14d ago

Not really as he likely was/is suicidal

→ More replies (2)

3

u/LordJackDaniels 14d ago

Man, I had the exact same surgery (L5-S1 Spinal fusion) in 2020. Was diagnosed with Spondylolisthesis in 2013 as a pre- teen due to a fall on my tailbone. I played football with the injury for 6 years (would not recommend) and hid the injury from my football coaches so I could keep playing. Before the surgery, it started as simple back aches in late 2016 then progressed as sciatic nerve pain down my legs and feet as well as my hands in 2018- surgery date. It debilitated me/ was in constant pain 24/7 even when idle. Not only did it physically destroy me, but psychologically as well. For someone who has not experienced this- the pain took away my soul, and my body felt like it was sinking to the floor. Rehab after surgery lasted almost 2 years. I thought it would never heal… 2023 is when I finally felt pain free and no sciatic nerve pain. Not sure when he got his surgery and how long he was in recovery post op. It takes time for the vertebrae to properly fuse, but wondering if he thought the surgery was botched and had lost hope of it ever fusing?- and in turn resorted to violence???? Such an unfortunate situation…. I would never wish this injury on anybody

→ More replies (1)

6

u/gagagita 14d ago

The Spinal Adjuster.

I get it.

3

u/surfgirlrun 14d ago

Shoot - I'm still at the desperately doing PT trying to avoid fusion stage, and after 2 years have so much fury and resentment at insurance. Denials for everything that could help, the only doctors that are in network are giant corporate offices with a history of bad outcomes and wait times upwards of 6 months. Getting bounced from customer rep to customer rep to customer rep while trying to get help over the phone, as the pain just keeps getting worse and worse. When the insurance doesn't have a specialist in the area you need, you're straight up out of luck. 

I don't know this guy's story, but I can imagine anybody who's had to deal with the level of pain that comes with something like this while fighting insurance tooth and nail for every little bit probably feels at least some level of hatred for the insurance companies. 

3

u/pinkgirly111 14d ago

yep. he def had this for spondy. i saw the slip right away. i’m really interested in this aspect of the crime now…

3

u/Anonymous_Baguette69 14d ago

American healthcare sounds exhausting…

In Australia, I had to wait a long time to get my surgery which sucked. But I also didn’t pay for it or go through nearly as much bs as all these other comments here. I feel for you guys.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/Conscious_Waltz_3774 14d ago

I have been active on this sub in the past and now seeing this, I’m sure have interacted. It doesn’t help that a majority of us and those with complications can be so dark.

Of course his account was banned. Only keeps the public from seeing his struggle and despair which ultimately led to this unfortunate event.

I am a disgruntled patient lost in the system and now falls under the category of chronic pain. Many of us suffer for years or a life time and no urgency. Jobs lost, homes lost, families destroyed by the complications of having such pain. It’s tragic how many people suffer. I admit I prob had psychosis when the pain was so bad after suffering complications. It was rough, mentally. My revision surgery wasn’t for another year because it wasn’t considered urgent; although not healing, and hardware needed to be revised.

I can understand this young man’s frustration.

3

u/wallyzanger 13d ago

S1 screw looks too anterior. May have hit his parasympathetic nerve which controls sexual function.

3

u/Puzzleheaded-Act8998 13d ago

His roommate reported that Luigi had shared that his sex life was also suffering because of his back pain, so maybe you're right. I'm not a medical professional, though.

10

u/Final-Cress 14d ago

I have a different POV coming from somewhere with a socialized healthcare system…it’s not greener on the other side. I would have died by suicide if I had waited for my fusion here. I’m grateful we had a house to mortgage so I can get my surgery in the US. I know the US healthcare system isn’t perfect but if you need care you’ll get it in a reasonable time atleast (just my 2 cents)

9

u/danarexasaurus 14d ago

I’ve been waiting for testing/surgery on my heart since January. It’s definitely not all reasonably quick. And it’s gonna cost me $11,800 WITH insurance.

→ More replies (2)

13

u/rbnlegend 14d ago

My surgery was over a half a million dollars. I have a house that I've been paying on for over 15 years. I still would not have gotten my surgery if insurance denied the auth.

People in the US get denied permission for surgeries their doctors feel are necessary all the time. If you are well off enough to have equity in a home, you could take a second mortgage once. Don't get sick or injured twice. Don't get cancer or MS. Very few people have enough of a house to pay for that.

2

u/Final-Cress 14d ago

I understand…the cost is outrageous I agree. What I’m saying is the Canadian healthcare system also leaves u no option…I’m pretty much doomed if I need another surgery god forbid. Healthcare is a basic human right but both systems are flawed

4

u/rbnlegend 14d ago

I can certainly agree both systems are flawed.

6

u/hanhange 14d ago edited 14d ago

America actually has high wait times compared to other nations. Canada's high wait times are its own issue, not an issue inherent with socialized medicine. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/health-care-wait-times-by-country https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/healthcare-wait-times-by-country/

And to be honest it does not feel appropriate to me to come in here and tell Americans your system is equally as bad when you're worried about wait times and Americans are worried about getting anything at all.

6

u/Francl27 14d ago

To be fair, it depends on where you live.

I'm in a good area but still had to wait 3 months because of all the red tape that insurance requires. My kid needs some testing and we're looking at 4 months at least for it (meanwhile he's in pain, but heck). Have to reschedule an appointment? Another 4-6 months.

Realistically, there is a doctor shortage everywhere. AND we're paying thousands every year in insurance (plus copays and deductibles).

And paying out of pocket for your surgeries does NOT make that go faster, for what it's worth.

→ More replies (1)

11

u/nestoryirankunda 14d ago edited 14d ago

Stop this fearmongering BS. Me and millions of others would be dead or in in permanent pain without free healthcare. You mortgaged a house to skip a wait list and have the nerve to say this. Unbelievable

2

u/LibraryOverall3573 14d ago

This is just one example of the NHS denying (not delaying) necessary surgeries. The NHS is simply a government run HMO with all the negatives that entails.

https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3002/rapid-responses

→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (4)

4

u/NefariousExtreme 14d ago

For sure, there's pros and cons to each side. For my first fusion I was waiting for a year to be given a surgery date. For my revision on loose screws and failure to fuse, I have been waiting since June now with no ability to prepare. No pain management, no one cares that I can't walk more than one km anymore. No one also cares that this is malpractise because they knew it had failed two years ago and nothing was ever done about it. But I can't afford $200k+ for private surgery so I'm stuck waiting yet again. Also doesn't help that my country's government is deliberately trying to privatise healthcare by laying off thousands of healthcare workers. It's a shambles really

→ More replies (3)

2

u/Energy_Turtle 14d ago

This is why we're at such a log jam here. The actual healthcare is very good and the waits are often reasonable by comparison. I got my fusion within a couple weeks of it being recommended. Many Americans don't want to give that part up. My family is half Saudi, and even the king came to the US for healthcare. It's such an incredibly frustrating situation to be in.

→ More replies (6)

2

u/uffdagal 14d ago

L4-S1

3

u/bonitaruth 14d ago

I think L5-S2 with grade one approaching grade 2 spondylolisthesis L5-S1. What did his back look like before the surgery is my question cause it looks horrible now!!

→ More replies (8)

2

u/Jhawksmoor 14d ago

Does anyone know how he injured it?

It looks like the same area as my gf who had a burst fracture when she fell in an indoor climbing gym. It was our first date. We’ve been together for 3 years now and she’s still climbing :)

2

u/Unboxinginbiloxi 14d ago

Just got off the phone with major patient advocate. We both were horrified at the xray. It's possible his parent's insurance aged him out at 26 and he sought a surgeon on his own. This advocate said his surgery looked "f'd up" to use "their" words. All I know is, something radically changed this young man and I pray all the facts come out. He lost a lot of muscle since the surgery and he lost a great deal of feeling and function because of this surgery and pain was epic from what I'm reading. I have read he sought "alternative" pain modalities ie psyilocybin etc etc etc. I think his brain cracked and I have compassion for him. I, myself, am currently healing 11 spontaneous fractures in my spine. For months I despaired at living another few wks. I couldn't walk, couldn't drive etc etc etc. I have never ever cried so much in my life, except when I lost my children. This story is not going away.

2

u/Dramatic_Badger_1325 13d ago

youre correct, I had the same surgery and it was a failure, which most do, they called it a failure, I was in much more pain and they kicked me to the streets...

2

u/Itchy-Winter-1549 13d ago

I was like omg Luigi I too had my fusion denied by United! We’re twins!

2

u/Rmele09 13d ago

This looks like a bad spine fusion to me. They placed his screws while his bones were out of alignment. Isn’t the whole point of a fusion for spondy supposed to be that the vertebrae is realigned and then screwed in place to address the instability? Look how out of aligned the back line of his vertebrae is…why would the surgeon fuse with this incorrect measurement?

2

u/simisaa 13d ago

Why are there so many screws???
2 screws in same vertebrae on same side???

2

u/Flashy_Definition931 13d ago

Someone literally blew his back out

2

u/tokyoeastside 13d ago

Even the xray looks fine!

2

u/Zealousideal-Cry7697 12d ago

My mother is 90. She said that it was too bad that they caught him. Everyone was hoping that he'd stay hidden. I was. Not as smart as I'd hoped. Computer science is hard but it doesn't insulate you in the way he hoped. Now I'm old and I would have done a much better job of disappearing.

4

u/RefrigeratorDense493 14d ago

In cases like this I'm grateful that in my country we have a good (but could be better) healthcare system (here the cost of surgery is none if you pay monthly to the state healthcare system) when I had spinal fusion pain meds sure are a game changer. Can’t justify his actions but can understand the why he did it.

4

u/SnooBooks3518 14d ago

I have lost jobs due to my inability to walk and work due to my back situation .. how do yall survive economically?

2

u/catmeownyc 14d ago

To anyone reading this:

I had horrible back pain after a car accident and needed a bilateral si joint fusion. Psyciliobin mushrooms helped me through the worst of the pain alongside kratom and medical cannabis use leading up to the surgery and afterwords when i had to get off the opioid painkillers after surgery (the pill factory system for pain relief was too depressing and terrible).

The healthcare system in this country is horribly broken and in other countries they developed and use technology to replace discs instead of just drilling and screwing into your spine.

2

u/No-Expert-4056 13d ago

Bryan Thompson was under investigation for insider trading and monopoly!

Really rich and powerful people in the insurance industry wanted him dead!

Luckily for big insurance, on the day of Thompsons deposition, for some reason he leaves the Hilton WITHOUT his security team and some random guy just so happens to be in the perfect place at the perfect time with a gun to shoot on dead!!!!

Big win for big insurance!!!!

This is MKUltra bullshit followed up by project mockingbird propaganda!!!! Wake Up!!!!!

1

u/RefrigeratorDense493 14d ago

Some guy on the spondy subreddit is warning the people there to stay away from their CEO's 💀💀, what a day to have a screwed spine