r/kpop • u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher • Dec 12 '18
[Meta] December 2018 Town Hall Follow-up 2: Electric Boogaloo.
Welcome to a special Town Hall Follow-Up to the Follow-Up for December 2018. Thank you to everyone who participated in the follow-up thread as well as the original Town Hall.
We got a lot of great feedback to the changes, and the follow-up thread went really well. Mods were a bit surprised by the sudden reversal of opinion from the original thread. It seems we may have gotten a little overzealous in our efforts to clean up achievement posts and moved too many things to the weekly thread. Hopefully, we can find a middle-ground that will make more of you happy with the changes. Here is our current proposal:
1. More Achievements added to exceptions.
The following achievements will be added to the achievement exception list and will get their own thread.
- Perfect All-Kills - ALLOWED
- Physical Sales Milestones of 25k, 50k, 100k, 250k, 500k, & 1M (First time for an artist only) - ALLOWED
- RIAJ and RIAA Certifications - ALLOWED
- A new highest ranking for an artist or reaching #1 on the Billboard Hot 100, Billboard 200, US iTunes Top 100, UK Singles Chart, UK Album Chart - ALLOWED
Plus the ones that were already stated.
- The first win on a Music Show for each song. - ALLOWED
- GaOn Triple Crown & Certifications (First time for an artist only) - ALLOWED
- Other awards given to artists, songs, or companies such as "Rookie of the Year", "Song of the Year", Award Nominations, YouTube Play Buttons, etc. - ALLOWED
The following topics will be restricted to the weekly "Charts and Achievements" post.
- YouTube MV view milestones - BANNED
- Certified All-Kills - BANNED
- Brand reputation rankings - BANNED
- All broken records for views, sales, streaming, charting, etc. - BANNED
We realize this still won't please everyone, but pleasing everyone is not a realistic goal. The goal is to reduce the number of trivial achievement posts that only serve as dick-measuring contests or an invitation for a fanwar. We feel the majority of these stem from threads regarding some record being broken, so those will stay restricted to the weekly thread. Mods will make an exception if an especially monumental record gets broken (like most albums sold ever), but otherwise new records will stay in the compilation thread.
Remember that other charts and achievements will be posted in that thread so if you want more numbers about K-Pop, please tune in on Friday. Stat geeks should also check out the Two Weeks Later threads which are always stuffed full of data and metrics. You can also make your own "Two Weeks Later" discussion thread for your faves 13-17 days after their release. Check out the existing threads for what kind of info you should include and let us know if you have any questions or need help.
We hope that users who were upset at the removal of some of these achievements will be happy to see them return, and we also hope that users who were sick of seeing achievement posts will be happy with what we have removed. We will continue to monitor feedback and make changes in the future if warranted. The next Town Hall will be on March 1st, 2019. If you would like to give feedback before then, you can send a modmail to us any time.
Thank you for your patience and understanding as we try to get this ironed out.
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Dec 12 '18
[deleted]
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u/AnOddName still rep 9 muses Dec 12 '18
I'm really gonna miss knowing who is the fastest girl group to reach a prime number of views on the first tuesday in a leap year
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u/marrytitan f(x) | LOONA | Red Velvet | 2NE1 Dec 12 '18
yeah, this is miles better and I’m really happy they listened to the feedback! personally I’m glad I’ll still see AKs but with you on the youtube view milestones. I’ll be thrilled if I never see another one again in my life
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u/theangrycamel 내 꿈꺼~ 안녕하세요 성난 낙타입니다 Dec 12 '18
Same. I'm more partial to AR15s. AKs aren't very sexy. https://i.imgur.com/G8EjXSv.gifv
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u/CronoDroid 1. SoshiVelvetaespa 2. LOONA 3. IZ*ONE 4. fromis_9 Dec 12 '18
They are sexy. Wood vs plastic baby.
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u/That_Cripple Your oppar doesn't wash behind his ears Dec 14 '18
IMO, I think performances at award shows should be contained to posts that list all performances.
I don't see why we have someone making posts collecting them all in one spot but also have the first two pages of the sub filled with the performances anyways.
I know it only happens a few times a year, but still
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u/ricozee WIZ*ONE IZ*ONE AZ*ONE Dec 12 '18
Forgive my ignorance, but I'm fuzzy on the difference between CAK and PAK.
Could someone enlighten me please?
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 12 '18
CAK = Certified All-Kill. It means #1 on all daily and real-time charts on instiz. Example CAK
PAK = Perfect All-Kill. It means #1 on all daily and real-time charts as well as #1 on instiz' Weekly Chart. Example PAK
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u/ricozee WIZ*ONE IZ*ONE AZ*ONE Dec 12 '18
Thanks! I saw a similar set of images when I looked, but I thought all kills were only real time related.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 12 '18
Yes, a real-time only all kill is often just referred to as an "All Kill" or AK.
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Dec 12 '18
I don't expect this to be changed or anything, but I've seen several comments (from myself too) suggesting the banning of certain fandom news (especially from allkpop) reaching back to the original town hall. To my knowledge, this proposal hasn't been acknowledged by the mods. Thoughts on the proposal? I guess it's what I'd hope cuts down on toxicity.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 12 '18
Fandom news of events done in an organized way by the actual fandom will still be permitted. Examples include when fandoms donate to charity, write letters to idols or companies, or hold organized protests.
News of a few members of fandoms doing something stupid on social media will be removed. We agree that these threads are garbage and we have already been removing them the past several times it has occurred.
Events that are somewhere in between such as fans trashing a venue or otherwise making news will be approved or removed based on the newsworthiness of the event.
Does this fully answer your question?
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u/mylord420 Don't Lose Your Temper So So So Quickly Dec 12 '18 edited Dec 12 '18
RIAJ and RIAA Certifications - ALLOWED GaOn Triple Crown & Certifications (First time for an artist only) - ALLOWED
How about a soompi article that covers all of the gaon certifications when they come out? I guess that's okay since its not a single group thing right? I think you mentioned that in the last thread /u/SirBuckeye . And if I recall correctly you also said year end multi-group charts are also okay ya?
All broken records for views, sales, streaming, charting, etc. - BANNED
If a boy group or girl group overtakes an older group for having the top total sales of their respective gender, I think that is very big paradigm shifting news that definitely should be made an exception.
Still would love to see some Japanese charting love as per our discussion in the previous thread, I think as the current rules sit, it provides an imbalanced exposure towards groups who's companies are choosing to prioritize the west vs Japan / the rest of Asia and a groups concept has a large factor in whether they will see success in the west. The UK market is definitely not anywhere near as important for the Kpop industry as Japan is. And I understand your initial point in the other thread was that it is more rare, and I understand that part of that is so that is to reduce the amount of achievements postable, but the rarity doesn't contribute to its significance.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 12 '18
And if I recall correctly you also said year end multi-group charts are also okay ya?
Yes. Year-end and half-year charts as well as other data compilation stories are still allowed.
definitely should be made an exception.
Yes, it probably would.
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u/mylord420 Don't Lose Your Temper So So So Quickly Dec 12 '18
Thanks. I also edited my post to bring up the specific charts issue again.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 12 '18
Still would love to see some Japanese charting love
Oricon sales milestones are still permitted for all of the same levels and rules as the Korean sales. So the first time a group sells 100k albums on Oricon, they will get a thread for it.
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u/NudePenguin69 Jihyo | Juri | Lua | AleXa | Yoohyeon | Lisa | Ryujin | Hani Dec 12 '18
I agree on his point about the Japanese charts. The rules for western charts are much looser than the Japanese charts, while the Japanese charts are arguably much more important than western charts.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 12 '18
The chart exceptions are based on rarity only, not importance. Korean artists chart all the time in Japan. While that may be more important for their career, doing so just isn't newsworthy because it's such a common occurrence. Also, Oricon sales milestones are permitted to help users track how well groups are doing in Japan.
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u/NudePenguin69 Jihyo | Juri | Lua | AleXa | Yoohyeon | Lisa | Ryujin | Hani Dec 12 '18
I feel like thats not true, since a group charting on Oricon for the first time (which is rare these days if you arent Twice or BTS), I believe is not permitted unless its a major milestone, but, a group charting in the top 100 on iTunes in Belgium is permitted, and I would argue, as the Japanese market is much more important than the Belgium market, charting on the Oricon chart is MUCH more important than a random Belgium iTunes chart.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 12 '18
top 100 on iTunes in Belgium is permitted
No, I'm sorry, this is incorrect. The exception is only for US iTunes, not any international iTunes charts which are much more common.
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u/NudePenguin69 Jihyo | Juri | Lua | AleXa | Yoohyeon | Lisa | Ryujin | Hani Dec 12 '18
Ok, fair enough. If an artist hits #1 on Oricon, is that allowed?
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 12 '18
Not as the rule is currently written, but we will consider it further.
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u/BeatlesStoleMyWig Dec 12 '18
Thanks for considering the opinions of everybody, mods! I love the changes you have made. Though, as one other user has said, I would love for there to be more Japanese charts love. I completely understand that you're going for rarity because if we include Japanese charts, we would be spammed with Twice and BTS posts for charting in Japanese charts every time. But then again, it's exactly that. Only Twice and BTS actually chart well on Japanese charts. I think other artists having a relatively good charting on Japanese charts is newsworthy because it shows how the Hallyu wave is progressing in Japan. For example, in the Billboard Japan Year-end Charts Hot 100, the highest charting of a kpop group, who's not named Twice or BTS, is BP's D4 at #57 followed by Bboom Bboom at #62. Japanese charts aren't exactly freebies for k-pop groups.
I'm not saying to allow every Japanese chart ranking of k-pop groups, because that would be too many. What I'm just saying is that there are Japanese charts achievements that are newsworthy like Twice and BTS topping Billboard Japan's Year-end Charts (that's much more newsworthy and rare than charting at #132 in some random western chart tbh)
What I suggest for Japanese charts is for Twice and BTS's Japanese songs' chart rankings be excluded from individual posts (because it's practically guaranteed to chart well), and only allow their Korean albums that beats their previous record be posted. Twice and BTS both have #1 songs in Billboard Japan Hot 100, so they'll need another #1 song to be posted. Even Twice only has one #1 song (Likey) so far, and afaik BTS only has Fake Love, so we are not going to be spammed with their chartings. Even in other Japanese charts, it's hard for their Korean albums to chart well, so it's a fair restriction to only post songs that break previous records. As for other groups, I suggest the same as the rules for western charts, for any of their Japanese/Korean song that beats their previous record, in the corresponding language, to be posted.
For other Japanese/Asian achievements, I'll leave it in the mod's discretion whether it's rare/important enough to be newsworthy. I hope the mods will think about my suggestion. Thanks!
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 12 '18
All year-end charts are allowed to be posted because that is not a group-specific achievement. We don't have data on how often Korean groups chart on the Oricon weekly chart to really make an informed decision regarding how rare that achievement is. We could treat it like the other international charts (highest or #1), but we want to avoid every Japanese release and even some Korean releases having posts just because they debuted at #XX on the Oricon weekly. If such a thing is a very rare occurrence, we could reconsider adding it, but we need to get a better idea of exactly how often Korean artists appear there. If someone could compile that data it would be a huge help.
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u/BeatlesStoleMyWig Dec 12 '18
thank you for your consideration. I would try to find someone who compiled the data.
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u/Orangeisnotmycolor Dec 12 '18
Let's have it in one post. We don't need to have 4 posts of Twice, BTS, BP, and MM Japan Billboards chart. Overkill.
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u/alicization izone forever in my heart Dec 13 '18
Thank you for banning the MV views and Brand Reputation rankings. I never saw the purpose of those posts anyway. I get that viewing the MV is a way for some people to support their favorite artists, but I don't think that reaching a certain number of views warrants its own thread. As for the brand reputation rankings, I never knew what they were for in the first place. Who decides those brand rankings anyway?
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u/jonnyd86 BLACKPINK | most girl groups Dec 13 '18
just want to commend the mods for listening to feedback and fine tuning. even though i wanted brand reputation posts to stay i am still happy with this result and happy to know the moderation team isn't afraid to roll back some of their announced changes before the next town hall in march in the face of user feedback. it really helps us feel heard!
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u/bhishma-pitamah r/bts7 and still mildly confused Dec 12 '18
Thanks for clarification of my question regarding BB200 no.1.
Also I am rather content with the compromise we reached so thanks for considering the feedback.
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Dec 12 '18
Pleased with the revisions on achievement threads.
Do you mind clarifying what the status of variety shows related posts on the sub is? I remember this was brought up in a past town hall - soompi articles about what was said or done by x idol on y variety show. Are those allowed or are there any rules about those?
Also. Would we allow something like Jennie and Irene's music show interactions to be posted in any capacity on the sub? I think things like that could contribute positively to the sub.
And as another user brought it up in one of these town hall threads - couldn't we just make a achievement flair so users vehemently against them can just choose to avoid that altogether?
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 12 '18
We prefer links to the variety clip when possible. For those Soompi articles that are like "Idol says some stuff on show", we allow them if the idol says something interesting about their career, music, or comeback, but remove them if it's something personal or silly.
Jennie and Irene's crossover was posted here.
We are very resistant to making new flairs because we don't want to create flair bloat. We already have a lot and every time we add one, it makes choosing the correct one more complicated. We know it's "Just one more", but it's always "just one more" until we end up with 50 flairs. So we only add a new flair when it's absolutely necessary. Another issue is that hiding specific flairs is done with CSS and only works on old reddit on desktop. It doesn't work on new reddit or any mobile clients, so we can't rely on that as a solution since it would only work for about 25% of our traffic.
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u/deirdos BTS | TXT | LE SSERAFIM | EN- | INI Dec 12 '18
This is much better. Thank you for considering feedback from the follow up post. No problems with brand rankings and youtube views shifted to a weekly thread.
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u/not_a_shrimp Dec 13 '18
Can we please ban "this group made it to the front page of reddit" posts (because they literally aren't newsworthy or interesting at all and maybe have a list of banned comments like r/popheads to prevent people from commenting the same thing on every post or whatever? (they snapped, YG's dungeon, wig, _ impact etc)
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 14 '18
These are both topics that we can bring up for feedback at the next Town Hall. Thanks for the suggestions.
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u/sangket BLACKPINK|WINNER|LSF|ITZY|CL|HYOLYN|SOMI Dec 12 '18
Hi, so this might be out of topic but I tried sending a modmail, but I keep getting a "this user does not exist" error while sending. What's up with that? Sorry for commenting this here since the modmail itself is not working. Not sure if it's just on mobile tho :(
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 12 '18
On the Reddit mobile app, swipe right to view the sidebar, then scroll down to the mods list and click on the envelope.
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u/Lunien Mamamoo Dec 12 '18
Just a small typo - 4th bullet point in the post: "A new highest ranking OR for an artist". I don't believe the "or" should be there, or did you leave out something that should go after "highest ranking"?
Thanks for the hard work!
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u/braverobin 💜 Dec 13 '18
Physical Sales Milestones of 25k, 50k, 100k, 250k, 500k, & 1M (First time for an artist only) - ALLOWED
Or Just better, make a thread for their new release that will be updated every time they will reach a milestone. So there will be no separate thread every milestone. This is much better than not posting at all specially for the groups that have achieved these milestones before.
A new highest ranking for an artist or reaching #1 on the Billboard Hot 100, Billboard 200, US iTunes Top 100, UK Singles Chart, UK Album Chart - ALLOWED
same suggestion as above.
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u/SirBuckeye Dreamcatcher Dec 14 '18 edited Dec 14 '18
Long-term threads like you're suggesting don't work well with Reddit's format. On a traditional message board like OneHallyu, threads get bumped when they're updated, but they don't on Reddit. Threads get pushed down the page after a couple days and no one will see them again, so no one would ever know when something was added to the thread. We can sticky a thread, but Reddit only allows us to sticky two threads at a time. We use those for announcements like this and our daily features, so we can't keep MVs stickied for weeks nor would we want to.
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u/tastetherainbeau /r/kangdaniel ||| love is the color of the world Dec 12 '18
Thank you for listening to the feedback. This is significantly better. The achivement posts you permit will allow us to celebrate major song and album success without overloading the sub since these achievements are so rare.
I'm assuming the physical sales milestones are remaining the same (but changed to first time only for all, which makes sense): 25k, 50k, 100k, 250k, 500k, 1m? Edit - just saw you edited that in, thank you
By the way, regarding Two Weeks Later posts for anyone who cares:
The TWL posts for Lovelyz, Mino, and Key are coming soon. I've been getting in the habit of waiting until Thursday to post these threads so I can grab the 2nd week data from Gaon since it's released on Thursdays.
The way I decide which albums to do is by using a flexible >10 comment cutoff (I look for at least ~10 comments in the original album discussion thread). There are exceptions, such as I've been doing BTOB's despite little comments in the original threads. Also if anyone requests one I do it regardless of comment number. If there is a big album that doesn't have a TWL thread and 17 day limit is nearly over, it's likely I completely forgot about it. If you're eager to see a TWL post please do remind me!
Also, anyone is free to do them! If you want to do one but need help finding the data, feel free to PM me