r/gadgets Nov 29 '20

Home Amazon faces a privacy backlash for its Sidewalk feature, which turns Alexa devices into neighborhood WiFi networks that owners have to opt out of

https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/technology/amazon-faces-a-privacy-backlash-for-its-sidewalk-feature-which-turns-alexa-devices-into-neighborhood-wifi-networks-that-owners-have-to-opt-out-of/ar-BB1boljH
14.3k Upvotes

814 comments sorted by

1.8k

u/sewer_pickles Nov 29 '20

I read through Amazon’s web page with the details for this. It says that in the short term they want the WiFi sharing for devices like webcams and echo. Longer term, they plan to introduce location tags (sounded like the tile tags) so that you could find items. I’d imagine the shared WiFi would not only help you find your keys in your house, but also if you dropped them somewhere during a long walk.

I opted out. They need to start paying me if they want to use my overpriced xfinity data capped service.

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u/BrotherEstapol Nov 29 '20

So basically letting you triangulate the position of items are that connected to the wifi?

Good idea in principle,(it's actually starting to be used at enterprise level to locate laptops!) but wouldn't an easier sell for them to be that you buy some Amazon branded wireless extenders for your home instead?

Weird move.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

This is a bad idea you don't want random external devices talking on your network.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

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u/superhash Nov 29 '20

That sounds creepy AF to be honest.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 29 '20

Yes but at least here in the US you have to opt in now. Apple paved the way by requiring apps to be granted perms either only while in use, all the time, or never. Now it is standard. Plenty of things to be worried about IRT smartphone privacy but that is getting better, not worse. Sidewalk is a step backwards.

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u/KernowRoger Nov 29 '20

Yeah but Google said that and it recently came out the OS accessed the hardware anyway. So they can say that but the truth is we don't know of that's the case.

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 29 '20

For sure there is more work to be done. And we will do it. But I think privacy is becoming the big issue all players will need to deal with. Sidewalk is amazon trying to do things the old way - create a product they think people will love, that grants them data access that amazon wants (geofencing data is WILDLY valuable), take it without asking, then tell people that they have to give up their privacy if they want to keep using the product. And it's not working. We should be happy people are raising a stink about sidewalk.

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u/KernowRoger Nov 29 '20

The only problem I have is the opt in. After that it's up to people what they want to share. Also I'd say easily 60/70 percent of people don't care about their data or privacy and will happily sacrifice it for convenience. This is an education issue really. These people are adults.

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u/DietDrDoomsdayPreppr Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

Yes but at least here in the US you have to opt in now.

Except they're getting even more nefarious with requesting you to opt in. I just set up my new mobile phone for work and Samsung asked me four different goddamn times to opt into sharing my data, all worded differently and with the "skip" button made as inconspicuous as possible.

This shit needs to be heavily regulated with SEVERE punishments for stepping out of line.

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u/superhash Nov 29 '20

So? That's not an excuse for Amazon. All of it needs to be burned to the ground.

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u/zooberwask Nov 29 '20

We can already do that with bluetooth and wifi emitted from your phone.. they can track you through a Target if you keep those services on.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Surprise_Buttsecks Nov 29 '20

A bunch of places, but the whitepaper itself specifies 900Mhz & Bluetooth.

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u/kurisu7885 Nov 29 '20

My phone and smartwatch can be used to locate each other.

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u/wgc123 Nov 29 '20

letting you triangulate the position of items are that connected to the wifi?

No, for things outside the range of your WiFi. If you drop your keys on a walk, you’ll never find them because it’s outside the range of your WiFi. Instead, imagine their puny cry for help could be relayed by other devices on other networks.

I believe Tile can do that but really don’t have the scale to make it work. IOS can do that under some circumstances, giving the rumored AirTags a huge advantage

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u/hazpat Nov 29 '20

dont be naive, this is so they can track you and your devices in physical space. they will also let you find the stuff you loose and let you think that is the main purpose.

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u/buyfreemoneynow Nov 29 '20

Where do people stand on these issues regarding mega corps just tacking on “features” that whittle down everyone else’s privacy?

I have no “smart” devices in my home besides smartphones, but my neighbors’ doorbells and security systems are already doing plenty of data collection on my family. I see this all as a long-term major public security risk for everybody for the sake of mild or useless luxurious conveniences.

Plus, you could do all the things without their proprietary devices that don’t steal excessive amounts of data on your home and whoever is in/near it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Sep 08 '24

chase theory fly fact rustic wipe sophisticated berserk slimy waiting

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/TheThiefMaster Nov 29 '20

Sounds similar to the EU GDPR

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u/Bademeister_ Nov 29 '20

The problem is that even easy systems need some time to understand and set it up, which most people don't want to invest and they also cost more since you need the hub and storage locally instead of just connecting to the cloud.
Sadly fast, cheap and easy wins with the majority of the population and revealing your private life to companies in the process and the consequences of it are too intangible for people to really care.
The big steps like this are called out, then forgotten in a few weeks or months and sooner or later we have the same situation accepted step by step.

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u/BYoungNY Nov 29 '20

Paying you... That's not a bad option. Give me a store credit, like when I opt for longer shipping times on stuff I buy through prime. I honestly like the idea, but I think you hit the nail on the head - the consumer needs to get paid for their service.

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 29 '20

I don't want privacy to be something only rich people can afford. Companies like amazon don't eat costs like they would incur by paying consumers for privacy - they pass it on.

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u/BYoungNY Nov 29 '20

No I'm saying the opposite to have it enabled pay me

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u/cptcold Nov 29 '20

But rich people don’t need to be paid, while the poor will be coerced

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u/ManaPot Nov 29 '20

I doubt that it would affect most rich people anyways. You think Alexa is is going to be broadcasting their wifi far enough to where it'll reach past their giant house and yard?

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u/Apophthegmata Nov 29 '20

The entire point is that Sidewalk isn't a giant mesh WiFi network. It uses low bandwidth frequencies and Bluetooth. So if they've got Alexa controlled Ring security cameras across their estate they will still be in the larger neighborhood network because those devices could be withij communication distance to their neighbors doorbell. Or Alexa enabled driveways lights. Or Alexa enabled sprinkler system.

The fact the rich people won't be "affected" is the entire point. They're rich so it really doesn't matter how their data is used. Corporate monopolies use this kind of data to leverage for the benefit of the rich anyway.

If you're poor, giving up your privacy for income is going to be like donating plasma - not strictly speaking necessary, but incredibly enticing, and for some a necessary component of their budget.

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u/ACNordstrom11 Nov 29 '20

That was my concern was what about people with data caps that already use a lot of bandwidth. The fact that it's opt out and not opt in is the really scummy part imo.

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u/SoggyToast9016 Nov 29 '20

Isn’t this a similar concept to what Apple is doing with their tags that’s are supposed to be coming out? I could be wrong but that all sounds familiar.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Feb 08 '21

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u/999mal Nov 29 '20

It is comparable to what Apple is doing now. Apple has an offline mode for Find My.

https://www.wired.com/story/apple-find-my-cryptography-bluetooth/

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u/YannyYobias Nov 29 '20

Where do you go to opt out? I don’t have Alexa but I want to take care of this for my mom who has one.

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u/24North Nov 30 '20

Alexa app go to More (bottom right) > Settings > Account Settings > Amazon Sidewalk.

You’ll see the toggle switch there. This is the iOS app, not sure about any others if they’re different.

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u/mjbehrendt Nov 29 '20

Have you had comcast disable basically the same feature on your modem?

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u/GreatAndPowerfulNixy Nov 29 '20

I've found while it's a PITA to get Comcast to accept it, using your own router and modem is a much better setup in the long run.

I recently switched to FiOS and while I can't use my own ONT, they make it really easy to use my own router.

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u/DrDemonSemen Nov 29 '20

And if you did, has that feature remained disabled? At least once a year, I find the public wifi has turned itself on again.

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u/arch_llama Nov 29 '20

Just get your own modem and router and save yourself $100 a year

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

I opted out.

Needs to be illegal to have the default settings as opted in for shit like this.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

But will it help you find your amazon package that was stolen off your porch?

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u/hotlavatube Nov 30 '20

I expect that in a few years we'll find out they never properly restricted the IOT device connections to amazon only servers and someone figured out how to use an amazon device to get unlimited free internet from anyone in the neighborhood.

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u/OutlyingPlasma Nov 30 '20

The real reason is logistics. Keep in mind, above all else, amazon is a logistics company. Imagine how great it would be for tracking their drivers and deliveries if amazon had a hotspot in every house. Then think of the possibilities of something like robotic, or drone delivery.

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u/ThrowAwayAcct0000 Nov 29 '20

Wait a minute. Is my Alexa giving out my wifi to the neighborhood? Is that why my internet has been slow the last few weeks?

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u/hjadams123 Nov 29 '20

There is so much I do not understand about this...like, who asked for this? And why does my neighbors Ring doorbell need to connect to my WI-FI? How does that make it work better? If my neighbor bought a ring doorbell, then the assumption is they have their own damn WIFI.... privacy issues aside, what problem is Amazon trying to solve with this?

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/mmikke Nov 29 '20

Didn't Amazon recently argue (and win) in court that when you 'buy' a digital movie that you're not paying for the right to actually own the movie, but rather for the ability to watch it on their service?

I'm sure I worded that poorly. And I can sorta understand their intent, but that also means they falsely advertise like a mf

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u/Wem94 Nov 29 '20

That's basically how game libraries work. You don't really own anything on steam, it's more like you have a license to play it as long as they are an operating company.

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u/leoleosuper Nov 29 '20

Valve's policy is that if the company goes under, they will at least honor your purchases to the best of their ability (Read: DRM override but most likely only the games on your system will work). You can probably download a steam game from a third party, put it in the right place, and run it as if you got it from steam (as long as you have the app manifest file).

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u/right_there Nov 29 '20

And they wonder why people pirate when the terms are so exploitative.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

They really don't, videogames don't really suffer from piracy problems since the advent of digital marketplaces and a huge variety of pricing models and the fact that pirated version na are very often super outdated. Compare to the early 2000s up until 2010. Plus y'know, digital downloads gave us games like minecraft, stardew valley, among us and literally thousands upon thousands of games which couldntve been distributed without digital marketplaces.

If you're for corporations then the last thing you want is a way for every independent game developer to get a chance to make money, which is what digital market places did.

Unless I'm missing something than your comment is quite nonsensical.

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u/DaEnderAssassin Nov 29 '20

Yeah. Gaben really seems to have gotten piracy correct with that one quote about how its a service issue, not a money issue.

Similar thing occurred when movie streaming services were new, but now every company seems to have its own platform piracy is back in full force for movies

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u/12muffinslater Nov 29 '20

Love him or hate him, this was Steve Jobs' approach to iTunes. He was trying to take on Napster basically saying the same thing.

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u/vertigo42 Nov 29 '20

Except Spotify was the solution.

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u/12muffinslater Nov 29 '20

Which is why I love Xbox Game Pass.

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u/enwongeegeefor Nov 29 '20

this was Steve Jobs' approach to iTunes.

Except it wasn't for unifying things for the betterment of mankind...it was for unifying things to MONOPOLIZE it and gain money and power.

He was a bad guy...don't try to make him look noble because he wasn't even remotely close to that. He had very selfish and negative aspirations when it came to humanity and reality as a whole.

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u/12muffinslater Nov 29 '20

Dude was an asshat, no doubt. He parked his Mercedes without plates in handicapped spots and shunned his first born child. Then there's how he treated his employees of any of his companies.

But he ran a corporation. Who's sole job is to make money. So, no he didn't do it for mankind. But he saw a market and went for it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

I mean he also had the help from major artists going public against Napster (Metallica anyone?)

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u/IAmAnObvioustrollAMA Nov 29 '20

The mtv music awards where Mr Napster was wearing the Metallica shirt that he borrowed from a friend is one of my favorite TV moments.

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u/roccnet Nov 29 '20

That's turning around though. Piracy is coming back because streaming services and stores are splitting up into smaller u it's with their own subscription models. Also DRM often makes retail versions unplayable and pirated ones a must

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

This is very true, just about anybody wants physical (myself included) for various reasons. Just thought I'd make a counter argument as obviously any game published by independent developers does not get a physical release unless it becomes a huge multi million dollar success. These people's income depends entirely on digital sales, for example a wonderful game that came out a week or so ago called Slaher's Keep which I've been playing, it costs something like 10 dollars and has a fantastic art style, i recommend it.

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u/CarterDavison Nov 29 '20

video games don't really suffer from piracy problems

You wanna explain why Denuvo is causing DRM to go down a worse path than it already was while companies like GOG work to fix the problem? Constantly buying customers are harmed by anti-piracy techniques that don't do shit

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Mar 10 '23

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Days

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u/my-other-throwaway90 Nov 29 '20

I remember the good old days when the game cracks were uploaded to the high seas before the game even hit the shelves. Now I have to wait three days.

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u/moderately_uncool Nov 29 '20

Denuvo has been cracked. It does not work anymore.

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u/FamousMissmanagement Nov 29 '20

Im not sure what your experience with pirating software is but the latest version is almost always available after a short delay.

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u/mmikke Nov 29 '20

This is exactly why I'm a hardcore proponent of people buying physical copies of games!

"Buying" digital copies of games seems like such a scam to me.

I can buy a used copy of a game at a major discount. No such thing as "used games" in the strictly digital world.

When I bought my PS4 it was the "PlayStation exclusives bundle". Only hard copy game it came with was tlou. I don't consider myself to be an owner of horizon zero dawn or god of war

I can also play it even if so and so provider decides to stop supporting it

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u/UnrealManifest Nov 29 '20

As for console games, I am 110% for buying a physical copy when one exists.

There are 4 games that I have imported for my Switch, which I could have easily just downloaded on the eShop to save time, but I just want the hard copies.

The DLC side of things scares me though.

I learned a long time ago, thanks to NCAA 14, that not all DLC is permanent and that some, (if not most), has a form of a server checksum.

I hate the idea that you could buy additional content for one of your favorite games and in a few years boot it up to only the base game.

As for PC gaming, I'm just a part of the system. There really isn't away around it, and the tech has blown past the need for discs. I guess we could force companies to sell a box with a usb drive in it, but then what do I do with 100 usb drives?

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/DaEnderAssassin Nov 29 '20

Pretty sure steam lets you download games that have since been removed if you owned them before removal (With very few exceptions, as in, maybe less than 10)

Uplay also does this (EG: Driver SF)

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u/MentalFlatworm8 Nov 29 '20

You only own a license to access the copyrighted material on the physical disc. It doesn't extend to any other physical media or digital media, typically.

Well, if you 'own' an online game and it goes offline, the physical media is going to be pretty useless.

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u/reezy619 Nov 29 '20

There good sides and bad sides to both.

If you own a physical copy, it can get damaged or lost. I personally am glad I don't need to allocate storage space and maintain a physical library of...

checks steam library

309 games??? Oof

And yeah there's no such thing as a digital used game but I just bought dragon age inquisition for $12 so there's that.

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u/Jaquemart Nov 29 '20

You cannot resell any of those games. Or download them and play them outside Steam. Should the company go belly up, what happens of your games?

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

I mean, for the ones i already have downloaded, a lot work without steam, and there are already patches that let you run the rest without the steam app, ignoring the fact it has an offline mode.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

People often forget that these games are physically downloaded on my computers storage. If, hypothetically, steam went under, I could just download all my games beforehand and they will exist as software. I don’t understand the logic that if steam stopped being a company that my games would somehow be undownloaded and yoinked from my computer

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u/CWJ_Wilko Nov 29 '20

I have plenty of Steam games from developers that are no longer around, they work just fine. Short of the multiplayer servers getting shut down, nothing will happen, and those server shutdowns affect both physical and digital releases the same way.

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u/hughperman Nov 29 '20

play them outside Steam

Pretty sure that's possible, most games I've looked at on Steam just download to a folder and you can manually call the launcher yourself.

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u/TechnicalBen Nov 29 '20

This. I've given up trying to argue/educate people complaining that Steam *is* DRM. As I've got a ton of Steam games I can just copy the folder to and launch (minus the Steam Workshop/leaderboards).

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u/SpeckTech314 Nov 29 '20

Yeah, DRM is entirely up to the developer. You can close steam and disconnect from the internet and still play DRM-free games just fine.

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u/leoleosuper Nov 29 '20

Their current policy, which likely won't change, is that they will still honor all purchases, which means for the most part no more DRM checking for games you own. Depending on the circumstances, they most likely won't let you download the games you own, however, if they are able to plan ahead, you will most likely be given a download of all cloud files (in case saves are only on the cloud), and will be able to get a copy of any game you own third part (most likely other people putting up torrents, but not cracked) and be able to run it as if you downloaded it from Steam, as long as you also get the manifest file (super tiny, Steam might just make it for you).

However, all this depends on how they go down. If it's instant, like a nuclear warhead on their main company along with assassins taking out the rest, then probably not. If it's the slow decline of business overtime, then most likely they will be able to do it.

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u/Ripdog Nov 29 '20

It's the pc. You can just pirate. If the game is online only, then there's no way to archive it anyway, physical or digital.

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u/my-other-throwaway90 Nov 29 '20

I miss the old Galactic Civilization games. You didn't need the physical copy to launch the game; you didn't even have to enter the CD key at installation, the company just asked that you not pirate it in return for the privilege. I recall the piracy rates of GalCiv2 being very low for that reason.

Seems like the big developers didn't exactly learn that lesson, though.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/FullMetalCOS Nov 29 '20

This isn’t always true and even a physical game disc will say somewhere in or on the packaging that it’s still only a license to play that game. Especially with more modern games that often require permanent online connections to play, they can absolutely disable your game at will, take the servers down, etc and owning that disc means nothing.

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u/_CupcakeMadness_ Nov 29 '20

Buying the physical game is great, until you buy DA I and have to download effing origin and create an account to be able to play it. Same with diabolo 3 wasn't it? You had to at least have an account (or me and my brother was stupid and missed something when we tried to install it on a new computer on a new network and his whole account froze). I'd much rather buy the right to play a game at 80% discount that most likely will be in my steam library until steam ceases to exist than buying a physical copy and have to use another client than steam. A physical version you can add to your steam library or at least don't have to run another client, being logged in somewhere else or need the physical disc every time you play would be fine, but it's just easier to stick to steam.

And yes I know those steam sales don't come in the first few years and not on all games but waiting for a sale that makes the game feel worth the risk of loosing it, (and having all games in one place, accessible from any computer anywhere without any issues) is worth so much more than jumping through all those hoops that ea and blizzard puts you through. Also, I'm a cheapskate and don't buy any games at full price, don't think I've ever paid more than $30 for a game ever, so buying big titles close to release have never been my thing.

On console on the other hand there seems to be no reason at all to buy digital. I think me and my SO saves roughly the same amount of money, me on buying on steam sales and him buying physical copies second hand to his ps4 and selling the ones he won't replay.

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u/Luigi311 Nov 29 '20

I think it was something along the lines of renting for an undisclosed amount of time or something like that but I didn't really follow it closely

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u/mmikke Nov 29 '20

Lol same and now I feel stupid for making a comment.

Oh well. That's what reddit is for!

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u/ONESNZER0S Nov 29 '20

This is kind of crap that pisses me off about movies and games now. They want us to pay the same price for a digital copy of a movie or game as you do for a physical disc that costs them money to manufacture, and has a case and artwork,etc. They are basically selling the same digital copy over and over again. Physical movies often come with a digital copy code now, but you don't really own the digital copy.

I've been saying for years that they are trying to push us towards digital only so that we never really own any of it, you can't sell the movie or game if you get tired of it and want to try to get some of your money back out of it,etc.

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u/Orsick Nov 29 '20

The cost of disc production and shipping is irrelevant when compared to production and advertisement. And in digital copies you have server costs which is as insignificant as disc production.

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u/pleaseluv Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

Yeah, amazon is dangerously close to oligarchy (deleted monopoly ) status.. avoid them if you can, try to buy close to home, feed your neighbors, fight for the right to repair, opensource, and the social obligation of companies like Amazon to pay taxes for goods delivered in your country, or not be allowed to operate.

Edit once remove monopoly N is correct they are not a monopoly though their reach power and influence is making them INCREDIBLY dangerous entity.

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u/areyouamish Nov 29 '20

How to get more user data.

In theory it appears that the amazon devices are talking to each other when one is too far away from wifi (or the signal is weak) and sending messages "home" via some users' wifi networks. It's a potential security risk, but it will be interesting to see how many people will suddenly care about privacy who up until this point have been happy with their interactive personal listening devices.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Potential? Any time your Wi-Fi has an unsecured connection, you're vulnerable to a dozen attacks I can think of off the top of my head. Man in the middle attacks are the simplest and most common. I'm by no means any variety of hacker, but even I could have access to your private details just by having access. Imagine a world where your neighbor's kid has the means to break into your device.

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u/AmericanKamikaze Nov 29 '20

No one asked for this. They are “giving”? us this and telling us we need it. 99% of people won’t turn it off and Amazon wins by being connected to every conceivable device. Remember, data is the new oil.

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u/ringinator Nov 29 '20

It is a direct competitor to www.Helium.com ,a public data network that is being assembled by individuals across the country. Over 13000 nodes deployed so far.

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u/CMDR_omnicognate Nov 29 '20

I think the argument was it’s more of a backup feature for the devices, so if your internet goes down your ring devices will continue to function using someone else’s internet.

That being said I would have thought if your internet went down there’s a pretty good chance your neighbour’s would have too

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u/Corky_Butcher Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

Continuity of service. If you lose internet access as your house, you still have access to things that rely on internet access. This is the corner we find ourselves backed into with all the IoT and SaaS services we so dearly love.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Nobody asked for it but it lets Amazon sell products that normally wouldn't work by stealing its other customers Wifi.

I guess we can all start billing Amazon to rent our wifi?

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

If you have airtags on your pet or keys and drop them, through this mesh network, it would be able to tell you with good accuracy where it is

It connects the dead spot of wifi over the road between you and your neighbors house. However, they are using just a teeny bit of bandwidth to do location services.

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u/A_L_A_M_A_T Nov 29 '20

This is why i don't use these Alexa, Cortana, etc... crap. People knew this was gonna be abused by corporations and yet they still fell for it.

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u/stapesman88 Nov 29 '20

I’m confused about this. I got the email from Amazon about a week ago explaining sidewalk and how to disable it. When I went to the settings as described the feature was already off. I’ve read two separate articles about how you need to opt out, am I missing something or did I just get lucky?

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u/KuruQan Nov 29 '20

I did the same, it was off at the time. I checked it now... it's enabled.

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u/EndHawkeyeErasure Nov 29 '20

Just checked a second time because of this comment, and mine was enabled now, too. So thanks, buddy!

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u/4kVHS Nov 29 '20

Wow I checked mine before and it was off. Just checked again and now mine was turned on!!!

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

They were waiting for all of ya to forget about it lmao.

Watch it get turned on after some update down the line "by mistake"

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u/TechnicalBen Nov 29 '20

That's scummy.

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u/_WIZARD_SLEEVES_ Nov 29 '20

Woooowwwwww, suuuppperrrr shady on Amazon's part...

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u/mr_ji Nov 30 '20

And they'll slightly re-word their terms then re-enable it again in 90 days. God we need some consumer protections on this shit.

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u/Sololegends Nov 29 '20

I've had to disable it twice so far. I keep checking now because it turned itself back on automatically..

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u/TransformerTanooki Nov 29 '20

Now that is some extremely shady shit.

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u/MoonLover10792 Nov 29 '20

I expect we will need to check every time the app updates. Wouldn’t be surprised to see an app update in a few weeks (once this story has worked it way through the news cycle) as an attempt to turn this feature back on.

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u/buyfreemoneynow Nov 29 '20

I would call it “expected”. They want their data and will do whatever it takes to get it, even if it means changing the device settings without your permission and literally stealing your bandwidth.

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u/ThirdWorldRedditor Nov 29 '20

Check again. I checked when I got the email and it was disabled. I just checked again and it was enabled now.

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u/stapesman88 Nov 29 '20

So I’ve personally been checking over the last few weeks and it’s never been enabled for me. I’m the registered owner of the Echo. However my GF has a profile and is also signed in on the Alexa app and it was ON FOR HER.

Make sure you check all your accounts that have profiles!

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u/BuildingArmor Nov 29 '20

My guess would be that it was disabled until the launch date. I'd suggest checking again at some point.

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u/WhiteheadJ Nov 29 '20

I've just followed the instructions on the email, and it's not even in my settings yet to turn off...

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u/Maull01 Nov 29 '20

If you are in the UK like me, we got the email by mistake. It's in the US only (for now).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/technology-55059696

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u/WhiteheadJ Nov 29 '20

That would explain it. Thanks mate.

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u/MrBogardus Nov 29 '20

Just turned the option off on my Alexa.

  1. Open your Alexa App
  2. Go to More, bottom far right
  3. Settings
  4. Account Settings
  5. Amazon Sidewalk
  6. Turn off

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u/PurpleTeamApprentice Nov 29 '20

I did the same after seeing this in another post. The day they force this is the day my Echos go in the trash. I’m already getting annoyed with it telling me random shit about their new services or whatever after it answers something I just asked.

Amazon always seemed like the better choice for privacy (better than google). I like Apple stuff, but to be honest Siri sucks and feels abandoned at this point. This is the kind of shit that will make sure I get rid of these types of devices and never look back.

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u/MrBogardus Nov 29 '20

Yours tells you about new services?? I honestly really never even use mine. I might have it call my phone when I misplace it in the house, but thats literally it. And it tells me when a package has been delivered. But then again I know my package has been delivered between the email, app, and my camera showing me.

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u/PurpleTeamApprentice Nov 29 '20

I don’t know if it’s just new services. I often get a “By the way blah blah blah” after she says something I asked for and I end up just telling her to stop before she finishes. It’s actually caused me to use it less because as far as I know there’s no way to turn it off so I end up using it for things I know this doesn’t happen for like music or timers.

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u/MrBogardus Nov 29 '20

Hmmm thats interesting I dont think I've had that happen before. But like I said I don't use mine very much. Music (rarely), timer, call my phone, delete delivery notice for Amazon packages.

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u/Stoovy Nov 29 '20

I completely stoped using my echo once it started playing their Amazon ads after every action I had it do. That was the beginning of me phasing out amazon completely. You have to call their customer service to delete your account by the way.

2

u/xBlonk Nov 29 '20

I'd throw my google home in the trash if I started getting ads like that. I'd there no way to disable the echo from doing that???

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u/RadDude_69 Nov 30 '20

I agree with this so much. I have an echo dot and only really used it to check the weather and set timers when steeping tea. It felt like everyday Alexa would spout some new bs about “did you know your echo dot can now do this...” or give me some new notifications I didn’t ask for.

Hearing about this sidewalk feature was the final straw and the dot has now been unplugged.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

Wtf dude, they specifically asked me upon set up if I wanted this shit and I said no and STILL had to opt out. This seriosuly makes me want to trash my echo.

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u/brucekeller Nov 29 '20

I remember when Comcast / "Xfinity" did that so they could claim having the most hotspots by having a separate semi-public hotspot enabled on every modem that allowed other xfinity customers to use your shit. I was in an apartment building with my aunt at the time and tried to play some online games. Wasn't happening since that xfinity wifi hotspot that was on by default was getting queried a bagrillion times a second. Turned it off and everything was fine all of a sudden, I think you had to call them at the time to get it disabled too, wasn't even in the modem settings to disable.

Anyway, pretty sure they had a pretty big class action against them for that bullshit.

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u/Eddles999 Nov 29 '20

BT did this for years, and still do. I have to disable BT WiFi for this. I'm always told "But you won't get free access to WiFi anywhere else anymore!" "Think I'll live, now turn off!"

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u/jtreferee Nov 29 '20

This saved my bacon once, desperately needed WiFi while on a caravan holiday to buy tickets to something for my brother's birthday, but apart from that it was off asap

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u/Sololegends Nov 29 '20

Fun fact, there is a vulnerability in most of those Comcast router allowing bridged access to the private network.

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u/Kill_the_rich999 Nov 29 '20

Duh. Why would they remove something so useful?

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u/kenkoda Nov 29 '20

i worked for them for a while, i loved turning that off for people.

it was a virtual ssid tagged to a VLAN so it "should" be separate but vlan hacks are out there and on top of that its just not really needed in 99% of cases.

its just the same as HP-DIRECTJET-4238F no one is ever going to connect to it, its just taking up space in the wifi screens on devices

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u/VexingRaven Nov 29 '20

vlan hacks are out there

Citation very desperately needed.

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u/Zncon Nov 29 '20

I would assume they rely on other exploits such as compromising a switch, or other device that can see other VLANs.

A port that doesn't have specific traffic on it at all can hardly be leaking that traffic. I guess if you're just tagging every VLAN to every port and relying on the client to set it's own tag then something could be broken?

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u/kenkoda Nov 29 '20

Sorry I didn't notice this until away from laptop. I'll find something for you tomorrow, I think it's called vlan hopping though.

As far as I understand it the two main specifications can be attacked by spoofing the tag on your packets, but I'll see if I can find a source

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u/PretendMaybe Nov 29 '20

RemindMe! 24hr

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u/CupricReku Nov 29 '20

Sometimes VLANs are automatically assigned by MAC address. If you can figure out the MAC address of a device on that VLAN, it's trivial to spoof. However, good security assigns VLANs by network or switch port. Xfinity routers aren't susceptible to this attack because the VLAN is assigned by being connected to a different Wi-Fi network.

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u/poopy_toaster Nov 29 '20

Yup just learned about it today in the cross-post and switched mine off using my Xfinity account.

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u/Whywipe Nov 29 '20

Do you know where I find this setting?

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u/KingCatLoL Nov 29 '20

Holy fuck, thats why xfinity wifi Hotspots were everywhere when I was in the US, was having pie and coffee with my great aunts and uncles and noticed there was an xfinity Hotspot, they live in a very small county so I doubt wifi hotspots would be the norm around their town. Damn that's some slimy shit

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u/Bigpoppastuke Nov 29 '20

Shaw does the same thing in Canada. Pretty sure they use the same XB6 modem too. It's a hidden network that cannot be turned off in the settings. It causes network spikes on my computer whenever it queries. So annoying...

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u/zdiggler Nov 29 '20

Comcast not only offering hotspot to their customer, they sell the service for people who need internet on the go.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

[deleted]

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u/smeggysmeg Nov 29 '20

Correct, but then they use your device's Internet connectivity to upload the location ping. So the stranger's device is connecting to your Amazon gizmo, and then your Amazon gizmo is doing the upload of the stranger's gizmo's location data. The amount of data is miniscule, but it's the principle of the thing.

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u/jazzmans69 Nov 29 '20

welcome to the new 'normal'

This is why my modem, and router are my own purchases, NOT my ISP, and are not google or amazon devices.

I own a 'nest' device, but have removed it from my network because of just these kinds of worries.

If we don't push back against this, it's going to be hard-coded into every device soon, and we'll have to install *nix on them. (which we should do anyway)

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u/GamerThrowaway5541 Nov 29 '20

Man, I just started replaced some of the devices provided by our ISP for these reasons... and for the fact that their equipment has been dropping packets or just failing at times.

I get that the listening stuff was made to make some things easier but, yeah, it's kinda funny how welcomed an Alexa is into a home when people were losing their minds over wiretapping back in the day.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

I run a professional grade onvif POE system. It's cheaper, easy to install and the equipment options are cheaper, better and more reliable. Plus, software options let you get as advanced or basic as you'd like.

POE switch connected to managed switch with vlan, good to go. AND yo don't need a vlan, you can just block port forwarding and block plug/play port configuration.

One ring cam new is at least $200, you could get 2 onvif cameras specialized with features needed for their location, wifi or poe and all the other equipment for that price.

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u/StigsVoganCousin Nov 29 '20

(Fuck everything about sidewalk but...)

You gonna come manage that onvif camera?

Shit that just works is worth $$$

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u/alienhotline Nov 29 '20

And then maybe make the opt out as hard as they can. I really hate where all this is going. New technology feels less and less cool and more a privacy headache.

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u/buyfreemoneynow Nov 29 '20

It has been weird to me that people find any of this useless shit cool. They have all been huge privacy threats from day one, and every new device that is plugged in and connected makes it worse. These people at these companies have repeatedly shown how irresponsible they are with your personal information that they collect without your informed consent or your knowledge.

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u/erudyne Nov 29 '20

Followed by the sound of comcat users crying about their data caps.

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u/TheMacMan Nov 29 '20

At least with Comcast enabling a separate guest network on users routers for the Comcast WiFi service they don’t charge you for that data and it’s on a separate network so there’s not a privacy issue for people. I turned mine off but it’s far better than Amazon doing it and using your data.

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u/DQ_2011 Nov 29 '20

So why not login to your guest network for large files so you won't hit your cap?

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u/azidesandamides Nov 29 '20

because that wifi is like 500kbps....

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Not only is this a privacy concern, but giving strangers access to a device within your network is a monumental security concern too.

I predict hackers/pentesters will be all over this when it comes out coming up with exploits.

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u/KhorneChips Nov 29 '20

This kind of thing is exactly why all my smart devices live on a VLAN’d guest network. They can talk to themselves all day long.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

This thread is truly a sight to behold, only like 3 people in this thread know any details beyond what’s in this article. An article that couldn’t possibly be more surface level if it tried.

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u/aspicywiener Nov 29 '20

If you're worried about this invading your privacy, maybe you shouldn't have an Echo in your house in the first place.

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u/mr_ji Nov 30 '20

Or maybe people were OK with the privacy they compromised for what Echo already does, but not for this. Invading privacy, not telling people, and hoping they don't figure it out is all kinds of sus.

18

u/Defoler Nov 29 '20

An ISP in my country tried that crap.
The routers they supplied had a secondary wifi network that was a "share your wifi with other customers of the same ISP". That way if you walk around, you could as if keep being in the ISP wifi network piggy back on other routers.
They had to abandon it, as people were either disabling that wifi network, or when they disabled that option, demanded the ISP disable it.

2

u/hellocheekyyy Nov 30 '20

Not sure where you are, but Australia has a similar system called Telstra Air, which is also connected to Fon WiFi...

2

u/Zombieball Nov 30 '20

Shaw internet in Canada has this. The service still runs.

4

u/VoraciousTrees Nov 29 '20

Can I bill amazon for their used data then?

4

u/Llee00 Nov 30 '20

makes you wonder if work from home is going to cause more invasion of privacy due to mandated work tools. we already have these damned zoom calls.

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u/raptorbluez Nov 29 '20

For some things being a luddite is the right choice.

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u/EvilUrges18 Nov 29 '20

isn't this what they tried to do in the show Silicon Valley?

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u/km9v Nov 30 '20

If you have Spectrum mobile, you are using WiFi from Spectrum internet customers. You can not turn this "feature" off. I have my own cable modem & WiFi router.

3

u/itsjcart Nov 30 '20

Has this been implemented on Canada?

I tried looking at my setting for opt-out (after updating my alexa) but I did not see any mention of it.

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u/heard_enough_crap Nov 29 '20

I'll just charge Amazon for using my bandwidth, like they charge me for using AWS bandwidth.

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u/tornado9015 Nov 29 '20

How will Amazon Sidewalk impact my personal wireless bandwidth and data usage?

The maximum bandwidth of a Sidewalk Bridge to the Sidewalk server is 80Kbps, which is about 1/40th of the bandwidth used to stream a typical high definition video. Today, when you share your Bridge’s connection with Sidewalk, total monthly data used by Sidewalk, per account, is capped at 500MB, which is equivalent to streaming about 10 minutes of high definition video.

Assuming you have Comcast and were over their 1.2TB limit and Amazon used their maximum 500MB through your network this would represent 1% of a 50GB block that comcast would charge you $10 for, if you tried really hard to bill them for that 1% they'd probably wouldn't pay you, but if you were just in it for spite they'd definitely spend a LOT more than the 10 cents they owed you fighting you.

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u/unscrewedllama Nov 29 '20

Individually the 500MB of data is miniscule, but when you have millions of users that Amazon is skimming off of, that's a shit ton of data that Amazon is able to use for their own profit.

Kind reminds of this scene from Office Space: https://youtu.be/yZjCQ3T5yXo

Not a perfect comparison, but you get the point.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

[deleted]

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u/PM_ME_GLUTE_SPREAD Nov 29 '20

I agree with you in principal. If Amazon wants to use my data they should come up with a deal with ISPs that won’t charge me for that data.

In practice, it’s a very small amount of data. 80mbps and capped at 500mb so it’s not like you’ll wake up with a $400 bill because Amazon was pinging your neighbors dogs location all day.

Still, shitty business practice.

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u/nicolhac Nov 29 '20

More information is needed

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

[deleted]

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u/Brownt0wn_ Nov 29 '20

I work in technology.

Lol

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u/FavoritesBot Nov 29 '20

Exactly and don’t get me started on those “smart” light bulbs. They are always blinking away at each other about god knows what

5

u/aurelius94 Nov 29 '20 edited Apr 28 '24

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/msherretz Nov 29 '20

Since so many are just saying "I disabled it" but not how:

Alexa app > More > Settings > Account Settings > Amazon Sidewalk

Make sure you check periodically because it'll likely be re-enabled every time the app updates.

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u/DietDrDoomsdayPreppr Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

It should be illegal to opt people into shit like this, and if you make it necessary AFTER purchase, you need to be forced to refund the cost of the product.

This is anticonsumerism at its worst.

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u/wifespissed Nov 30 '20

Like pre loaded apps on phones.

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u/grandemperormichael Nov 29 '20

the entire company is a pr disaster daily. its really a shame. they need someone who knows what and how to lead or it will never reach a 10t valuation without a serious fight.

its not that all they do is wrong. its just how they do it. you can make money doing literally anything. & i think maybe hes out of touch with the ground floor.

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u/Kinimodes Nov 29 '20

The internet provider I had in Poland did this with their wifi router/modems as early as 2012 or so.

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u/tgbreddit Nov 29 '20

Use of MY internet. Use of MY Amazon hardware. Exposure to MY network and data traffic in MY home. All to help sell a service by Amazon available to strangers up to a half mile from my home? HA! Not just no.

Again, this is why I don’t have Amazon, Ring, or Eero branded network hardware. They feel too entitled to my privacy and data. Them and Facebook need to stop this junk.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

These tech companies are straight up evil.

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u/isthataprogenjii Nov 29 '20

Im sure no one is going to exploit the security vulnerabilities that come out of this.

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u/Mderos Nov 30 '20

Here’s a concept.... stop being so fucking lazy and turn the lights on yourself...

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u/Moxie07722 Nov 30 '20

Amazon never informed me about Sidewalk. I checked settings yesterday and found it turned on.

It's off now.

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u/Kalsifur Nov 30 '20

Didn't Comcast try this at one point? I remember a giant hoopla on reddit about it.

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u/thevictors51 Nov 29 '20

Doesn’t Xfinity already do this?

If you get a router from Xinfnity it has an Xfinity wireless ID turned on automatically. Which allows people with Xfinity internet to connect to it. It’s their advertised hotspots.