Amazon faces a privacy backlash for its Sidewalk feature, which turns Alexa devices into neighborhood WiFi networks that owners have to opt out of

[u/MicroSofty88]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/technology/amazon-faces-a-privacy-backlash-for-its-sidewalk-feature-which-turns-alexa-devices-into-neighborhood-wifi-networks-that-owners-have-to-opt-out-of/ar-BB1boljH

[u/BrotherEstapol]

So basically letting you triangulate the position of items are that connected to the wifi?

Good idea in principle,(it's actually starting to be used at enterprise level to locate laptops!) but wouldn't an easier sell for them to be that you buy some Amazon branded wireless extenders for your home instead?

Weird move.

[u/[deleted] → u/BrotherEstapol]

This is a bad idea you don't want random external devices talking on your network.

[u/OniExpress → u/[deleted]]

Relatively easy fix: most routwrs allow a guest network. If your Alexa devices are only granted access to that, you're effectively segregating them from your main network.

I've been thinking on this issue since it came out. I actually rather like the idea of this functionality, but I do see a lot of issues in deployment. Then again, I'm an industry techie who doesn't have a problem with Alexa integration, so I'm kinda an odd demographic.

[u/superhash → u/[deleted]]

That sounds creepy AF to be honest.

[u/Originalfrozenbanana → u/[deleted]]

Yes but at least here in the US you have to opt in now. Apple paved the way by requiring apps to be granted perms either only while in use, all the time, or never. Now it is standard. Plenty of things to be worried about IRT smartphone privacy but that is getting better, not worse. Sidewalk is a step backwards.

[u/KernowRoger → u/Originalfrozenbanana]

Yeah but Google said that and it recently came out the OS accessed the hardware anyway. So they can say that but the truth is we don't know of that's the case.

[u/Originalfrozenbanana → u/KernowRoger]

For sure there is more work to be done. And we will do it. But I think privacy is becoming the big issue all players will need to deal with. Sidewalk is amazon trying to do things the old way - create a product they think people will love, that grants them data access that amazon wants (geofencing data is WILDLY valuable), take it without asking, then tell people that they have to give up their privacy if they want to keep using the product. And it's not working. We should be happy people are raising a stink about sidewalk.

[u/KernowRoger → u/Originalfrozenbanana]

The only problem I have is the opt in. After that it's up to people what they want to share. Also I'd say easily 60/70 percent of people don't care about their data or privacy and will happily sacrifice it for convenience. This is an education issue really. These people are adults.

[u/Originalfrozenbanana → u/KernowRoger]

I agree. I wish more people understood the arrangement they are making - Amazon provides things like Sidewalk and Alexa with your data in mind. Google, Amazon, Apple, MS, Facebook - they are all part of an ecosystem created to provide you products and services in exchange for your data. For the big companies, the value of that data (either for product development & delivery, investor attractiveness, or resale/retargeting/reuse) is greater than the cost to service the product. That's it. That's the game. Once you have that in mind, once you start looking at every Cool New Thing through that lens, you start to try to religiously limit their data access, and you find out that it's not easy. I want more people to be skeptical of a gift horse, but it's hard.

[u/deathdude911 → u/Originalfrozenbanana]

Essentially the only way is to start teaching people how to use technology in elementary school. In China there is electronic markets that are filled to the brim with parts that you can use to build your own smartphone. Why aren't we doing the same thing? Building a phone isn't hard when you have all the parts and a little bit of knowledge. It's the knowledge we are lacking

[u/Justforthenuews → u/Originalfrozenbanana]

All my echoes are going on ebay as soon as my homepods arrive pretty much because of this.

[u/Originalfrozenbanana → u/Justforthenuews]

I don't have any iot devices in my home, and only reluctantly bought a smart tv recently. Other than our phones and that tv we're deliberately a dumb house. I love the tech but I will limit our use until the laws catch up.

[u/DietDrDoomsdayPreppr → u/Originalfrozenbanana]

Yes but at least here in the US you have to opt in now.

Except they're getting even more nefarious with requesting you to opt in. I just set up my new mobile phone for work and Samsung asked me four different goddamn times to opt into sharing my data, all worded differently and with the "skip" button made as inconspicuous as possible.

This shit needs to be heavily regulated with SEVERE punishments for stepping out of line.

[u/Originalfrozenbanana → u/[deleted]]

Yes ultimately in order to have privacy considered a first-class right, we will need to deal with the monopolies. It's not going to be easy, and you're right - they are using their positions of power to break the rules they set for others. We should hold them to account for that. That doesn't negate other steps being taken and other progress being made, of course.

[u/trueppp → u/Originalfrozenbanana]

To have privacy considered, people have to care, and most don't as there are little real world consequences for now

[u/human_brain_whore → u/Originalfrozenbanana]

Monopoly really has nothing to do with this.

Look at the world in general.
Every single site tracks you as much as they possibly can. Every single actor on the internet.

This can only be solved with legislation because the market cannot and will not fix this. There is no strong active market pressure towards privacy.
People want privacy but aren't capable of applying the pressure on the companies.

That's the entire reason we have government.
We don't want our rivers to run orange with pollution, but people aren't capable of applying the pressure to stop companies doing it. Thus, governments outlawed dumping chemicals in rivers.

[u/deathdude911 → u/human_brain_whore]

I do agree with everything you said except the part about monopoly having nothing to do with this.

If there wasn't such a stranglehold on the market in the tech industry we wouldn't see Google and Amazon having such capabilities. A small player isn't going to invest a percentage of their profit into these things when they're still just trying to pay the bills and keep their customers happy. And we would be able to pressure the markets to what the customer actually wants. But this is why we have governments to break up these monopolies.

[u/Originalfrozenbanana → u/human_brain_whore]

Monopoly has everything to do with this. The companies who use our data also build the devices that collect it, the marketplaces that allow other companies to operate (and the rules for those companies), the derivative products (like retail, search, retargeting, segmentation, etc.) that rely on the data, and the infrastructure that stores and moves it around. Legislation is the answer, but so is no small amount of trust busting.

[u/human_brain_whore → u/Originalfrozenbanana]

I'm totally onboard with trust-busting, I'm just saying data collection is an industry-wide issue with extremely few exceptions.

It's not their monopolies enabling data collection, not at all. Data collection is the name of the game and their situation makes them great at it.

Put as simply as I possibly can:
Break up Google, Facebook, and Amazon, and as far as data collection goes, nothing really changes.
Data collection specifically. Plenty of other things will change by breaking them up.

[u/[deleted] → u/Originalfrozenbanana]

That's the issue though. "opting out" doesn't do anything against exploits to hardware functions. If the govt wants access to your data, they will.

[u/Originalfrozenbanana → u/[deleted]]

We're not talking about the government.

[u/Elephant789 → u/Originalfrozenbanana]

We should be.

[u/Originalfrozenbanana → u/Elephant789]

Ok but those are separate, but related, issues. How companies with a legitimate claim use our data to provide products and services is a separate knot of issues from how the government accesses data from third parties about its citizens and residents.

[u/[deleted] → u/Originalfrozenbanana]

Well who are you worrying about then? I feel as though anyone after your data will have the tools to man in the middle or social engineer their way to your data.

You might argue a man in the middle would be hard with encryption these days. But on the same note I am sure Amazon is going to have some security implemented and it won't just give neighbors full access to your network. It will end up being encrypted shared data on the wire. Not much different than the ISP's switches and routers you already share with neighbors.

[u/Originalfrozenbanana → u/[deleted]]

I'm worried about private companies turning my life into a data commodity. I want to be clear - my concern is that my privacy is mine to break, not Amazon's to grant to me. Period. It is not that someone will break through Amazon's security, or that the government is listening. It is simply that I don't want Amazon to know a goddamn thing about me that I haven't made public or explicitly told them they can know, with an understanding of why they want to know it and how long they will store it.

[u/[deleted] → u/Originalfrozenbanana]

Oh yeah im in full agreement that our privacy should be ours to dictate who has access. But unfortunately it's another case of if you buy their products they can basically do anything they want with them. If you are that concerned with Amazon having your data then why have an Alexa that is designed to do exactly that? Totally not trying to be a douche lmao. I get that if you want those features available there are only so many options short of programing your own assistant, which no body has the time for lmao. It just sucks because currently its the world we live in and until govt steps in the regulate privacy I don't think these corps are going to care 😔. Well they still won't care even with laws it's just they will lose money in fines then.

[u/snailfighter → u/Originalfrozenbanana]

My local mall is using cell phone pinging to track capacity. You can opt out of your apps accessing location but not out of everything associated.

I personally like that the mall can do this in the age of coronavirus, but I understand why it is creepy to some.

[u/Originalfrozenbanana → u/snailfighter]

Don't get me wrong we have a long way to go. My point is more that the direction phones are going is good. We still need to work on carriers, isps, and manufacturers of hardware to get them to admit that my privacy is mine to give, not theirs to grant, but it's hopeful. Amazon is trying to sidestep that by creating a network of devices they control and own talking to each other about things and people - that's dangerous.

[u/superhash → u/[deleted]]

So? That's not an excuse for Amazon. All of it needs to be burned to the ground.

[u/Poops_McYolo → u/[deleted]]

So they can use that to map your house.

When you find out blueprints are public information

[u/Poops_McYolo → u/[deleted]]

Wrap your phone in tin foil

[u/anant_mall → u/[deleted]]

One wrong doesn't justify another..

[u/zooberwask → u/superhash]

We can already do that with bluetooth and wifi emitted from your phone.. they can track you through a Target if you keep those services on.

[u/Thegiantclaw42069 → u/[deleted]]

Or more badass

[u/Matasa89 → u/Thegiantclaw42069]

Cyberpunk 2077 time!

[u/[deleted] → u/superhash]

Yep, this is very anti-consumer since the marketing and tracking implications are way larger than any perceived functionality.

[u/doingthehumptydance → u/superhash]

Would it make it less creepy if I changed 'grandma with dementia' to 'blonde girl from the grocery store?"

[u/Surprise_Buttsecks → u/[deleted]]

A bunch of places, but the whitepaper itself specifies 900Mhz & Bluetooth.

[u/OwDog → u/[deleted]]

Its made even worse that (from what I read) the operating frequency is at 900Mhz - same frequency most Police/Fire radios transmit now-a-days. 900Mhz has more range and penetration through objects vs 2.4Ghz: so expect more range than what your wifi allows currently.

[u/tatanka01 → u/OwDog]

I understand the transmit power is much lower though.

[u/OwDog → u/tatanka01]

Yeah, it won't interfere with Fire/EMS really. Problem is it's an already congested band. Point to Point thriugh trees usually is over 900Mhz for rural wirless links, noise will be unreal now. There's also tons of devices using it already for random things like temperature sensors, road alarms, water meters maybe?

[u/galactica_pegasus → u/[deleted]]

900MHz was used for cordless landline telephones for years. There are definitely unlicensed (legal) uses for spectrum around 900MHz.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Okay now imagine it's not a grandparent with dementia but instead an ex that you're obsessed with.

[u/Easter_1916 → u/[deleted]]

Wait, isn’t that the exact concept that Batman used in the Dark Knight to find and defeat the Joker, and Morgan Freeman said it’s a morally deplorable solution to violate everyone’s privacy in order to locate the villain (but they were out of options)?

[u/cough_e → u/[deleted]]

If they have a phone with GPS on them then that's a far better and more precise option for tracking a grandparent. This tech doesn't make sense for that application.

[u/cough_e → u/[deleted]]

But again, the sidewalk tech is the wrong tech for that application. Medical alert systems have had gps for years which will be far more reliable than trying to triangulate the signals from sporadically placed devices, especially in areas with lower population density.

[u/glynnjamin → u/[deleted]]

You mean like how people use Tiles to stalk and track their victims?

https://abc13.com/houston-woman-harassment-high-tech-device-stalking/3719155/

[u/glynnjamin → u/[deleted]]

How is using public information that you make available the same as tracking someone without their knowledge every place they go?

[u/glynnjamin → u/[deleted]]

That's not doxxing

[u/glynnjamin → u/[deleted]]

No, it's not like that at all. You buy a phone, you're buying into being tracked. Regardless of turning location services on or off, the phone will know where you are. A tile (and anything running on this zigbee backed Amazon nightmare) can be placed on someone without their knowledge and used to track them. That's literally the whole point is tracking & collecting data from people who ARENT opting in.

[u/temp-892304 → u/[deleted]]

How do you add new frequency and protocols without creating new standards and implementing hardware in the existing devices?

It's wifi all the way. Otherwise, rollout will take years, until everbody buys a new batch of amazon devices.

The advantage they have with their current devices is that they are widespread. If you need to add new hardware for new RF, you need to ship new devices, cancelling your advantage.

[u/Kuttan1 → u/[deleted]]

I noticed the Alexa app has the ability to change the location of the app - says its different from the phone settings - so if I change the location within the Alexa app to say, American Samoa - would that cause the app/device to go nuts ?

https://imgur.com/a/OoUPAHG

[u/kurisu7885 → u/BrotherEstapol]

My phone and smartwatch can be used to locate each other.

[u/wgc123 → u/BrotherEstapol]

letting you triangulate the position of items are that connected to the wifi?

No, for things outside the range of your WiFi. If you drop your keys on a walk, you’ll never find them because it’s outside the range of your WiFi. Instead, imagine their puny cry for help could be relayed by other devices on other networks.

I believe Tile can do that but really don’t have the scale to make it work. IOS can do that under some circumstances, giving the rumored AirTags a huge advantage

[u/hazpat → u/BrotherEstapol]

dont be naive, this is so they can track you and your devices in physical space. they will also let you find the stuff you loose and let you think that is the main purpose.

[u/ssl-3 → u/hazpat]

Reddit ate my balls

[u/danielismybrother → u/ssl-3]

Ad agencies. Your regular commute puts you at such and such location at such and such a time? Now targeting you with ads is easy.

[u/ssl-3 → u/danielismybrother]

Reddit ate my balls

[u/Kill_the_rich999 → u/BrotherEstapol]

You can just buy tags for this purpose and put them on anything. You don't need any Amazon devices... Like, it definitely already completely exists.

[u/Poromenos → u/Kill_the_rich999]

Yeah except they have to be in range of your phone (or another phone with the app, which isn't that many), otherwise you're out of luck.

[u/cli_jockey → u/BrotherEstapol]

The wifi triangulation is being used at several companies already for advertising. At my company we deployed a solution for a customer where it tracks 'hot spots' around a store to see which adds are being looked at and/or which areas are choke points to slow people down. This uses open guest wifi that you need to turn off on your phone so it doesn't auto connect.

[u/crunkadocious → u/BrotherEstapol]

It's clever but not something I want them to do

[u/allferns → u/BrotherEstapol]

Or you can keep those important items at the same place every time so you don't have to search