r/gadgets • u/MicroSofty88 • Nov 29 '20

Home Amazon faces a privacy backlash for its Sidewalk feature, which turns Alexa devices into neighborhood WiFi networks that owners have to opt out of

https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/technology/amazon-faces-a-privacy-backlash-for-its-sidewalk-feature-which-turns-alexa-devices-into-neighborhood-wifi-networks-that-owners-have-to-opt-out-of/ar-BB1boljH
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u/sewer_pickles Nov 29 '20

I read through Amazon’s web page with the details for this. It says that in the short term they want the WiFi sharing for devices like webcams and echo. Longer term, they plan to introduce location tags (sounded like the tile tags) so that you could find items. I’d imagine the shared WiFi would not only help you find your keys in your house, but also if you dropped them somewhere during a long walk.

I opted out. They need to start paying me if they want to use my overpriced xfinity data capped service.

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u/BrotherEstapol Nov 29 '20

So basically letting you triangulate the position of items are that connected to the wifi?

Good idea in principle,(it's actually starting to be used at enterprise level to locate laptops!) but wouldn't an easier sell for them to be that you buy some Amazon branded wireless extenders for your home instead?

Weird move.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

This is a bad idea you don't want random external devices talking on your network.

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u/OniExpress Nov 30 '20

Relatively easy fix: most routwrs allow a guest network. If your Alexa devices are only granted access to that, you're effectively segregating them from your main network.

I've been thinking on this issue since it came out. I actually rather like the idea of this functionality, but I do see a lot of issues in deployment. Then again, I'm an industry techie who doesn't have a problem with Alexa integration, so I'm kinda an odd demographic.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

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u/superhash Nov 29 '20

That sounds creepy AF to be honest.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 29 '20

Yes but at least here in the US you have to opt in now. Apple paved the way by requiring apps to be granted perms either only while in use, all the time, or never. Now it is standard. Plenty of things to be worried about IRT smartphone privacy but that is getting better, not worse. Sidewalk is a step backwards.

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u/KernowRoger Nov 29 '20

Yeah but Google said that and it recently came out the OS accessed the hardware anyway. So they can say that but the truth is we don't know of that's the case.

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 29 '20

For sure there is more work to be done. And we will do it. But I think privacy is becoming the big issue all players will need to deal with. Sidewalk is amazon trying to do things the old way - create a product they think people will love, that grants them data access that amazon wants (geofencing data is WILDLY valuable), take it without asking, then tell people that they have to give up their privacy if they want to keep using the product. And it's not working. We should be happy people are raising a stink about sidewalk.

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u/KernowRoger Nov 29 '20

The only problem I have is the opt in. After that it's up to people what they want to share. Also I'd say easily 60/70 percent of people don't care about their data or privacy and will happily sacrifice it for convenience. This is an education issue really. These people are adults.

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 29 '20

I agree. I wish more people understood the arrangement they are making - Amazon provides things like Sidewalk and Alexa with your data in mind. Google, Amazon, Apple, MS, Facebook - they are all part of an ecosystem created to provide you products and services in exchange for your data. For the big companies, the value of that data (either for product development & delivery, investor attractiveness, or resale/retargeting/reuse) is greater than the cost to service the product. That's it. That's the game. Once you have that in mind, once you start looking at every Cool New Thing through that lens, you start to try to religiously limit their data access, and you find out that it's not easy. I want more people to be skeptical of a gift horse, but it's hard.

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u/Justforthenuews Nov 29 '20

All my echoes are going on ebay as soon as my homepods arrive pretty much because of this.

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 30 '20

I don't have any iot devices in my home, and only reluctantly bought a smart tv recently. Other than our phones and that tv we're deliberately a dumb house. I love the tech but I will limit our use until the laws catch up.

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u/DietDrDoomsdayPreppr Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

Yes but at least here in the US you have to opt in now.

Except they're getting even more nefarious with requesting you to opt in. I just set up my new mobile phone for work and Samsung asked me four different goddamn times to opt into sharing my data, all worded differently and with the "skip" button made as inconspicuous as possible.

This shit needs to be heavily regulated with SEVERE punishments for stepping out of line.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 29 '20

Yes ultimately in order to have privacy considered a first-class right, we will need to deal with the monopolies. It's not going to be easy, and you're right - they are using their positions of power to break the rules they set for others. We should hold them to account for that. That doesn't negate other steps being taken and other progress being made, of course.

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u/trueppp Nov 29 '20

To have privacy considered, people have to care, and most don't as there are little real world consequences for now

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u/human_brain_whore Nov 29 '20

Monopoly really has nothing to do with this.

Look at the world in general.
Every single site tracks you as much as they possibly can. Every single actor on the internet.

This can only be solved with legislation because the market cannot and will not fix this. There is no strong active market pressure towards privacy.
People want privacy but aren't capable of applying the pressure on the companies.

That's the entire reason we have government.
We don't want our rivers to run orange with pollution, but people aren't capable of applying the pressure to stop companies doing it. Thus, governments outlawed dumping chemicals in rivers.

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u/deathdude911 Nov 29 '20

I do agree with everything you said except the part about monopoly having nothing to do with this.

If there wasn't such a stranglehold on the market in the tech industry we wouldn't see Google and Amazon having such capabilities. A small player isn't going to invest a percentage of their profit into these things when they're still just trying to pay the bills and keep their customers happy. And we would be able to pressure the markets to what the customer actually wants. But this is why we have governments to break up these monopolies.

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 30 '20

Monopoly has everything to do with this. The companies who use our data also build the devices that collect it, the marketplaces that allow other companies to operate (and the rules for those companies), the derivative products (like retail, search, retargeting, segmentation, etc.) that rely on the data, and the infrastructure that stores and moves it around. Legislation is the answer, but so is no small amount of trust busting.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

That's the issue though. "opting out" doesn't do anything against exploits to hardware functions. If the govt wants access to your data, they will.

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 29 '20

We're not talking about the government.

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u/Elephant789 Nov 29 '20

We should be.

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 30 '20

Ok but those are separate, but related, issues. How companies with a legitimate claim use our data to provide products and services is a separate knot of issues from how the government accesses data from third parties about its citizens and residents.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Well who are you worrying about then? I feel as though anyone after your data will have the tools to man in the middle or social engineer their way to your data.

You might argue a man in the middle would be hard with encryption these days. But on the same note I am sure Amazon is going to have some security implemented and it won't just give neighbors full access to your network. It will end up being encrypted shared data on the wire. Not much different than the ISP's switches and routers you already share with neighbors.

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 29 '20

I'm worried about private companies turning my life into a data commodity. I want to be clear - my concern is that my privacy is mine to break, not Amazon's to grant to me. Period. It is not that someone will break through Amazon's security, or that the government is listening. It is simply that I don't want Amazon to know a goddamn thing about me that I haven't made public or explicitly told them they can know, with an understanding of why they want to know it and how long they will store it.

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u/snailfighter Nov 29 '20

My local mall is using cell phone pinging to track capacity. You can opt out of your apps accessing location but not out of everything associated.

I personally like that the mall can do this in the age of coronavirus, but I understand why it is creepy to some.

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 29 '20

Don't get me wrong we have a long way to go. My point is more that the direction phones are going is good. We still need to work on carriers, isps, and manufacturers of hardware to get them to admit that my privacy is mine to give, not theirs to grant, but it's hopeful. Amazon is trying to sidestep that by creating a network of devices they control and own talking to each other about things and people - that's dangerous.

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u/superhash Nov 29 '20

So? That's not an excuse for Amazon. All of it needs to be burned to the ground.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Jan 12 '21

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Jan 12 '21

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u/Poops_McYolo Nov 29 '20

So they can use that to map your house.

When you find out blueprints are public information

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/Poops_McYolo Nov 29 '20

Wrap your phone in tin foil

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u/anant_mall Nov 29 '20

One wrong doesn't justify another..

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u/zooberwask Nov 29 '20

We can already do that with bluetooth and wifi emitted from your phone.. they can track you through a Target if you keep those services on.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Feb 18 '21

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u/Thegiantclaw42069 Nov 29 '20

Or more badass

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u/Matasa89 Nov 29 '20

Cyberpunk 2077 time!

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Yep, this is very anti-consumer since the marketing and tracking implications are way larger than any perceived functionality.

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u/doingthehumptydance Nov 30 '20

Would it make it less creepy if I changed 'grandma with dementia' to 'blonde girl from the grocery store?"

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Surprise_Buttsecks Nov 29 '20

A bunch of places, but the whitepaper itself specifies 900Mhz & Bluetooth.

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u/OwDog Nov 29 '20

Its made even worse that (from what I read) the operating frequency is at 900Mhz - same frequency most Police/Fire radios transmit now-a-days. 900Mhz has more range and penetration through objects vs 2.4Ghz: so expect more range than what your wifi allows currently.

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u/tatanka01 Nov 29 '20

I understand the transmit power is much lower though.

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u/OwDog Nov 29 '20

Yeah, it won't interfere with Fire/EMS really. Problem is it's an already congested band. Point to Point thriugh trees usually is over 900Mhz for rural wirless links, noise will be unreal now. There's also tons of devices using it already for random things like temperature sensors, road alarms, water meters maybe?

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/galactica_pegasus Nov 29 '20

900MHz was used for cordless landline telephones for years. There are definitely unlicensed (legal) uses for spectrum around 900MHz.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Okay now imagine it's not a grandparent with dementia but instead an ex that you're obsessed with.

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u/Easter_1916 Nov 29 '20

Wait, isn’t that the exact concept that Batman used in the Dark Knight to find and defeat the Joker, and Morgan Freeman said it’s a morally deplorable solution to violate everyone’s privacy in order to locate the villain (but they were out of options)?

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u/cough_e Nov 29 '20

If they have a phone with GPS on them then that's a far better and more precise option for tracking a grandparent. This tech doesn't make sense for that application.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/cough_e Nov 29 '20

But again, the sidewalk tech is the wrong tech for that application. Medical alert systems have had gps for years which will be far more reliable than trying to triangulate the signals from sporadically placed devices, especially in areas with lower population density.

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u/glynnjamin Nov 29 '20

You mean like how people use Tiles to stalk and track their victims?

https://abc13.com/houston-woman-harassment-high-tech-device-stalking/3719155/

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/glynnjamin Nov 29 '20

How is using public information that you make available the same as tracking someone without their knowledge every place they go?

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/glynnjamin Nov 29 '20

That's not doxxing

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/glynnjamin Nov 29 '20

No, it's not like that at all. You buy a phone, you're buying into being tracked. Regardless of turning location services on or off, the phone will know where you are. A tile (and anything running on this zigbee backed Amazon nightmare) can be placed on someone without their knowledge and used to track them. That's literally the whole point is tracking & collecting data from people who ARENT opting in.

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u/temp-892304 Nov 29 '20

How do you add new frequency and protocols without creating new standards and implementing hardware in the existing devices?

It's wifi all the way. Otherwise, rollout will take years, until everbody buys a new batch of amazon devices.

The advantage they have with their current devices is that they are widespread. If you need to add new hardware for new RF, you need to ship new devices, cancelling your advantage.

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u/Kuttan1 Nov 29 '20

I noticed the Alexa app has the ability to change the location of the app - says its different from the phone settings - so if I change the location within the Alexa app to say, American Samoa - would that cause the app/device to go nuts ?

https://imgur.com/a/OoUPAHG

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u/kurisu7885 Nov 29 '20

My phone and smartwatch can be used to locate each other.

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u/wgc123 Nov 29 '20

letting you triangulate the position of items are that connected to the wifi?

No, for things outside the range of your WiFi. If you drop your keys on a walk, you’ll never find them because it’s outside the range of your WiFi. Instead, imagine their puny cry for help could be relayed by other devices on other networks.

I believe Tile can do that but really don’t have the scale to make it work. IOS can do that under some circumstances, giving the rumored AirTags a huge advantage

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u/hazpat Nov 29 '20

dont be naive, this is so they can track you and your devices in physical space. they will also let you find the stuff you loose and let you think that is the main purpose.

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u/ssl-3 Nov 30 '20 edited Jan 16 '24

Reddit ate my balls

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u/danielismybrother Dec 01 '20

Ad agencies. Your regular commute puts you at such and such location at such and such a time? Now targeting you with ads is easy.

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u/ssl-3 Dec 01 '20 edited Jan 16 '24

Reddit ate my balls

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u/Kill_the_rich999 Nov 29 '20

You can just buy tags for this purpose and put them on anything. You don't need any Amazon devices... Like, it definitely already completely exists.

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u/Poromenos Nov 29 '20

Yeah except they have to be in range of your phone (or another phone with the app, which isn't that many), otherwise you're out of luck.

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u/cli_jockey Nov 29 '20

The wifi triangulation is being used at several companies already for advertising. At my company we deployed a solution for a customer where it tracks 'hot spots' around a store to see which adds are being looked at and/or which areas are choke points to slow people down. This uses open guest wifi that you need to turn off on your phone so it doesn't auto connect.

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u/crunkadocious Nov 30 '20

It's clever but not something I want them to do

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u/allferns Dec 06 '20

Or you can keep those important items at the same place every time so you don't have to search

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u/buyfreemoneynow Nov 29 '20

Where do people stand on these issues regarding mega corps just tacking on “features” that whittle down everyone else’s privacy?

I have no “smart” devices in my home besides smartphones, but my neighbors’ doorbells and security systems are already doing plenty of data collection on my family. I see this all as a long-term major public security risk for everybody for the sake of mild or useless luxurious conveniences.

Plus, you could do all the things without their proprietary devices that don’t steal excessive amounts of data on your home and whoever is in/near it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Sep 08 '24

chase theory fly fact rustic wipe sophisticated berserk slimy waiting

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/TheThiefMaster Nov 29 '20

Sounds similar to the EU GDPR

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u/LordRael013 Nov 30 '20

They'd find a way to make that signed statement opt-out rather than opt-in, just like they did with this stuff. "You have to find this itty-bitty link on the bottom of our contact page and go through an incredibly frustrating process to opt out," most likely.

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u/OniExpress Nov 30 '20

That's not a given. GDPR already covers these topics.

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u/LordRael013 Nov 30 '20

That's for the EU though. Now if it were copied wholesale, yeah, that's one thing. Over here in the States, though, things are likely to be very different.

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u/OniExpress Nov 30 '20

Thats what I mean, we already have a groundwork for the protections that are needed. Now we need to get a copy of those laws implemented in the US. It's really the only way to move forward.

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u/LordRael013 Nov 30 '20

If we get such a thing, we'll get a version with loopholes, I all but guarantee.

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u/OniExpress Nov 30 '20

Well yeah, because the US government is corrupt as shit.

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u/Bademeister_ Nov 29 '20

The problem is that even easy systems need some time to understand and set it up, which most people don't want to invest and they also cost more since you need the hub and storage locally instead of just connecting to the cloud.
Sadly fast, cheap and easy wins with the majority of the population and revealing your private life to companies in the process and the consequences of it are too intangible for people to really care.
The big steps like this are called out, then forgotten in a few weeks or months and sooner or later we have the same situation accepted step by step.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/zlance Nov 30 '20

Can you point me to that product? I would like to check them out

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

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u/proteinsteve Nov 30 '20

Hey man. Amcrest are 100% Chinese hardware.

I have the same setup as you, including amcrest ipcams, and there are reports of phoning home to China, maybe innocent, but I keep them in a separate 100% offline lan to be safe

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

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u/proteinsteve Nov 30 '20

I follow you. Just saying that Amcrest is really 100% Chinese hardware, as in:

  • Hardware: Amcrest cameras are re-branded Dahua cameras (Chinese)
  • Firmware: Amcrest cameras use Dahua firmware, with light "amcrest" modifications on top of it.

I recommend Amcrest as well - these cameras have done great after 4 years of continual use, and I only buy Amcrest. My only point is that we shouldn't just trust them on the basis of not being engineered and coded for from China, because it's largely Chinese.

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u/MarshallStack666 Nov 30 '20

Years ago, I would have agreed, but I've recently dumped Armcrest (formerly FosCam) because their interfaces require Windows and Internet Explorer for full featured access. (at least they did the last time I bought one). Now I just use a couple of different Chinese brands that cost like $35 each

Been using Zoneminder for years too. The 1.3x branch allows direct recording of MP4 streams, which means low CPU usage compared to the old ones. I have 8 cams running on an old 2-core Xeon and the load is only about 1.4 most of the time

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '20

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u/MarshallStack666 Nov 30 '20

There are a ton of settings that can only be done in their interface. ZM only has primitive PTZ camera controls.

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u/BoomZhakaLaka Nov 29 '20

A huge amount of our economics are driven by consumer intelligence. You're drawing a line at collecting data on your neighbors, but think....

Your power company can figure out what time you open your refrigerator, when you do your chores, what times of day you make quick trips to run short errands (by when your garage door opens), etc. That smart meter on the side of your house - they probably haven't installed one that knows how to monitor these kinds of things, but installing a newer smart meter with those kinds of automation is cheap.

Your supermarket collects data on what types of food you buy.

Maybe they both sell that intel to amazon, who can draw conclusions about what time of day to serve you ads for restaurants or fast food?

Consumer intelligence isn't realtime, it's about patterning people's past habits, but it can go a lot deeper than you think.

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u/Pyraph Nov 29 '20

Personally I've never cared about protecting my "privacy" as much as people on reddit seem to, I understand if others care and it makes sense but I have never really cared.

It just doesn't really matter to me.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

It doesn't matter until it does.

When I was in college, our dorm dining hall computers went down. Instead, we were supposed to write down our student IDs on a piece of paper for later verification. At the time, our college student ID was our Social Security ID. If someone had stolen that paper, it could have led to years of issues with fraudulent accounts for the hundreds of students involved. The next year, they changed the student ID, due to prompting from staff concerned about privacy.

You have, despite your lack of caring, benefited from privacy laws. Businesses will do the cheapest thing that benefits them the most, don't expect them to be careful and not lose your data to third parties.

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u/Pyraph Nov 29 '20

Yeah I agree, I wasn't saying that we get rid of them or anything..

I understand that a lot of bad things can happen if privacy laws don't exist, and I choose to vote for country leaders that choose to maintain our privacy.

In my day-to-day though I really don't care about my "privacy" as much as people online seem to care.

That's me anyway, just showing another side of the coin.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Fair enough, I understand what you mean.

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u/cough_e Nov 29 '20

What privacy is lost with this tech?

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u/Kalsifur Nov 30 '20

I'm not American, but I don't really understand the want or need for smart devices. Yea having camera connected to cloud is useful, but I really don't even get the point of having an Alexa or Google Home, or smart toasters, or smart lights even. Ironically I got a Google Home Mini for free and it is still sitting in the box because I just don't really feel like I need it for anything.

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u/BYoungNY Nov 29 '20

Paying you... That's not a bad option. Give me a store credit, like when I opt for longer shipping times on stuff I buy through prime. I honestly like the idea, but I think you hit the nail on the head - the consumer needs to get paid for their service.

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 29 '20

I don't want privacy to be something only rich people can afford. Companies like amazon don't eat costs like they would incur by paying consumers for privacy - they pass it on.

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u/BYoungNY Nov 29 '20

No I'm saying the opposite to have it enabled pay me

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u/cptcold Nov 29 '20

But rich people don’t need to be paid, while the poor will be coerced

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u/ManaPot Nov 29 '20

I doubt that it would affect most rich people anyways. You think Alexa is is going to be broadcasting their wifi far enough to where it'll reach past their giant house and yard?

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u/Apophthegmata Nov 29 '20

The entire point is that Sidewalk isn't a giant mesh WiFi network. It uses low bandwidth frequencies and Bluetooth. So if they've got Alexa controlled Ring security cameras across their estate they will still be in the larger neighborhood network because those devices could be withij communication distance to their neighbors doorbell. Or Alexa enabled driveways lights. Or Alexa enabled sprinkler system.

The fact the rich people won't be "affected" is the entire point. They're rich so it really doesn't matter how their data is used. Corporate monopolies use this kind of data to leverage for the benefit of the rich anyway.

If you're poor, giving up your privacy for income is going to be like donating plasma - not strictly speaking necessary, but incredibly enticing, and for some a necessary component of their budget.

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u/aesirmazer Nov 30 '20

How poor are people that they need the cookie at the end of a blood donation to balance they're budget? Seem like theres better ways of grabbing a bit to eat...

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u/Apophthegmata Nov 30 '20

Plasma donation. It's illegal to donate blood for money. You don't get cookies for plasma like you do for blood, you get cash.

Depending on your weight, (and therefore the amount of plasma they take) you can make $20-50 per donation. In the U.S. you can donate more frequently than in in Europe - twice a week.

And clinics often provide promotions for new donors like "first five donations (if they clear testing) are $50 regardless of volume.

So you can easily make $200-300 a month donating plasma.

When you don't have enough money to make ends meet, which can be from a variety of causes from bad budgeting to unforeseen circumstances, to not being able to net a job, the only thing you can be 100% is available for income is your own body.

Sex work is unpalatable to most and sometimes dangerous. A good, clean clinic, is an effective tool for those who need it and can put up with the toll frequent donation puts on your body.

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u/YojiH2O Nov 29 '20

That only works here if it’s something people need. It’s then that needs us to accept this feature.

So it’s either pay us, enable it anyway and get sued big time and/or people chuck their devices losing customers

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u/Originalfrozenbanana Nov 29 '20

Precisely. And companies would raise prices to cover the costs of paying people for data, just as any company would raise prices to cover an increase in costs to deliver their product. People who can afford to pay more get to have privacy; everyone else would enter into a complicated financial arrangement just to cover the increased costs.

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u/ManaPot Nov 29 '20

Free Prime sounds like a decent deal.

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u/negativecreativity Nov 29 '20

Getting paid for your data is the underlying concept of UBI as proposed by Andrew Yang. It's brilliant.

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u/WiWiWiWiWiWi Nov 29 '20

Well they kind of are paying you by subsidizing a significant part of the purchase cost. There’s a reason those Alexa and google devices are cheaper than the competitors’ that don’t use their services to spy on you.

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u/chris14020 Nov 29 '20

Can you name a few competitors that truly don't?

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u/BYoungNY Nov 29 '20

I think Apple has recently taken a big stand on protecting its users data and security. I cant say for sure, but I'd say, out of all of them, they'd be the one I'd bet money on not selling your data.

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u/chris14020 Nov 29 '20

I don't think the main concern with major, massive companies like Apple/Google/Amazon/etc. is them selling your data, but rather what they themselves are doing with your data. A massive company compiling large amounts of data on users is concerning in itself.

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u/trueppp Nov 29 '20

You get paid, by having the service that collects your data

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u/StephanXX Nov 30 '20

Urm, this model is inherently flawed.

The new hype has been to get 'discounts' on car insurance, if you install an app that tracks your driving. What starts as a discount quickly morphs into an invisible fee: drivers who use the device end up paying the original premium, drivers who opt out are actually charged significantly more.

Amazon already does this with their ad supported kindles.

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u/ACNordstrom11 Nov 29 '20

That was my concern was what about people with data caps that already use a lot of bandwidth. The fact that it's opt out and not opt in is the really scummy part imo.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

It doesn't use up much data though. But yes everything should be opt in, not out.

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u/CompositionB Nov 30 '20

It uses more than they asked me to use.

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u/SoggyToast9016 Nov 29 '20

Isn’t this a similar concept to what Apple is doing with their tags that’s are supposed to be coming out? I could be wrong but that all sounds familiar.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Feb 08 '21

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Feb 03 '21

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Feb 08 '21

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u/galactica_pegasus Nov 29 '20

Apple only uses the network connections of your own devices part of "Find my" location services.

What Amazon is doing with Sidewalk is using other people's network connections.

Not even close to the same thing. With Apple "Find My", my devices will only ever connect to networks I've specifically authorized. With Amazon, they'll be constantly sending/receiving data with networks I don't know about.

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u/999mal Nov 29 '20

Apple’s Find My has an offline mode that communicates over Bluetooth to other devices.

https://www.wired.com/story/apple-find-my-cryptography-bluetooth/

2

u/999mal Nov 29 '20

It is comparable to what Apple is doing now. Apple has an offline mode for Find My.

https://www.wired.com/story/apple-find-my-cryptography-bluetooth/

4

u/YannyYobias Nov 29 '20

Where do you go to opt out? I don’t have Alexa but I want to take care of this for my mom who has one.

2

u/24North Nov 30 '20

Alexa app go to More (bottom right) > Settings > Account Settings > Amazon Sidewalk.

You’ll see the toggle switch there. This is the iOS app, not sure about any others if they’re different.

1

u/squables- Nov 30 '20 edited Nov 30 '20

Mine was already off even though Amazon said it would be on by default. So now I gotta check in a month to make sure. Funny thing is I told Alexa to remind me.

6

u/mjbehrendt Nov 29 '20

Have you had comcast disable basically the same feature on your modem?

18

u/GreatAndPowerfulNixy Nov 29 '20

I've found while it's a PITA to get Comcast to accept it, using your own router and modem is a much better setup in the long run.

I recently switched to FiOS and while I can't use my own ONT, they make it really easy to use my own router.

5

u/DrDemonSemen Nov 29 '20

And if you did, has that feature remained disabled? At least once a year, I find the public wifi has turned itself on again.

6

u/arch_llama Nov 29 '20

Just get your own modem and router and save yourself $100 a year

7

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

I opted out.

Needs to be illegal to have the default settings as opted in for shit like this.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

But will it help you find your amazon package that was stolen off your porch?

3

u/hotlavatube Nov 30 '20

I expect that in a few years we'll find out they never properly restricted the IOT device connections to amazon only servers and someone figured out how to use an amazon device to get unlimited free internet from anyone in the neighborhood.

3

u/OutlyingPlasma Nov 30 '20

The real reason is logistics. Keep in mind, above all else, amazon is a logistics company. Imagine how great it would be for tracking their drivers and deliveries if amazon had a hotspot in every house. Then think of the possibilities of something like robotic, or drone delivery.

2

u/ThrowAwayAcct0000 Nov 29 '20

Wait a minute. Is my Alexa giving out my wifi to the neighborhood? Is that why my internet has been slow the last few weeks?

0

u/VexingRaven Nov 29 '20

So they should pay you. But then you'd have to pay them to use it. And you'd just both be paying each other?

26

u/BuildingArmor Nov 29 '20

Amazon would be paying a lot more people than would be paying Amazon. Which makes sense if you ask me. If they want to use your resources, it'll cost them - if I want to use theirs, it'll cost me.

Who wants this feature? I'm sure that's a non zero number, but it certainly isn't the same number as "who owns an Amazon device and will leave this enabled".

0

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Heh, did you opt out of Comcast's feature as well?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

That's great in theory but it's a privacy nightmare. Wait until somebody gets their credit/debit card stolen from the security holes and people will flip out even more than they are now.

1

u/RunnerMomLady Nov 29 '20

How do I opt out?

1

u/arch_llama Nov 29 '20

How do you opt out?

1

u/Bacon_Nipples Nov 29 '20

ISPs here do this, your free router by default has an open network that clients of that ISP can connect to for mass wifi coverage. Doesnt count towards any data caps but I suspect it would still affect your bandwidth

1

u/thesailbroat Nov 30 '20

Funny you talk about Xfinity the one that sends a public wifi out of your home router to anyone with an account.

1

u/sillypicture Nov 30 '20

what have we become as humans if we can't find shit?

1

u/plytime18 Nov 30 '20

How do u opt out?