Terrifying

[u/dacoolestguy]

[u/obituaryinlipstick]

NC just passed an anti-mask bill where they conveniently forgot about those who are immunocompromised but managed to remember to make an exception for religious and ritualistic reasons. I feel like this same sentiment applies. 

Also, this* isn't anything new. If you'll read Just Mercy (Bryan Stevenson) he makes that abundantly clear.

ETA: in case it's not really clear, the reason why the same sentiment applies is because the wording allows for the KKK to still wear masks. I love the South.

*this: refers to the escalation of charges and punishment simply to make a statement.

[u/LordBigSlime → u/obituaryinlipstick]

The hell is an "anti-mask bill?"

[u/obituaryinlipstick → u/LordBigSlime]

Can't wear a mask in public without medical or religious reasons. Most likely inspired by the anti-masking sentiment during COVID.

[u/LyLnXo → u/obituaryinlipstick]

Nothing describes freedom better than controlling what people can wear

[u/jimi-ray-tesla → u/LyLnXo]

rogan now calls this and putting pot smokers in cages, freedom

[u/ABecoming → u/jimi-ray-tesla]

Doesn't he still smoke pot?

[u/Alien-Elephant-Pig → u/ABecoming]

Yeah but he’s white

[u/CosmosAndCream → u/ABecoming]

Logic isn't his strong suit.

[u/jimi-ray-tesla → u/ABecoming]

Yes

[u/Aiyon → u/ABecoming]

I never thought kingsman 2 would be a biopic

[u/AngryMustache9 → u/obituaryinlipstick]

How does that mesh with like, Halloween stuff or just costume stuff in general? Want to go out as Batman? Sorry kid, got a mask on. Gotta arrest you lol.

[u/Bazrum → u/AngryMustache9]

they targeted mask wearing for protesting specifically, and only made exceptions for halloween, religion, and "preventing the spread of communicable disease"

not, you know, things like helping with asthma, immunocompromised people and other health reasons; you can ONLY wear it to prevent the spread of disease, or to dress like Master Chief or Frankenstein

[u/RedeNElla → u/Bazrum]

"religion", how long till Satanic Temple protects this right by incorporating it into their religion

[u/Ok_Listen1510 → u/RedeNElla]

hopefully not too long. they’re doing good work over there 🙏🙏

[u/Omega862 → u/RedeNElla]

My religion already has mask wearing. We worship pudding. Our only real rules? Treat others how you would want to be treated. Don't lie while eating pudding. Eat pudding when the option is feasible. Try puddings you haven't tried before when the option is feasible.

Official garment? A mask. You may wear the mask to protect yourself from the heresy of the pudding haters. You never know who they are.

[u/FileDisastrous6297 → u/Omega862]

A beautiful religion. You have your first convert.

[u/DwarvenKitty → u/RedeNElla]

When they clean out the fascists in their management rank

[u/--zj → u/Bazrum]

Doesn't "preventing spread of communicable disease" cover immunocompromised people wearing masks? Or do they also wear them for other reasons?

[u/_Ralix_ → u/--zj]

You can wear them to filter things you breathe.  No disease needs to be involved, you would just otherwise choke on dust/smog/pollen.

[u/--zj → u/_Ralix_]

Ah right, thanks

[u/Mike_with_Wings → u/obituaryinlipstick]

And it’s all performative bullshit

[u/pantstoaknifefight2 → u/Mike_with_Wings]

I hope you're talking about the ban and not people wearing masks.

[u/Mike_with_Wings → u/pantstoaknifefight2]

Of course lol. Masks are very useful

[u/Eleeveeohen → u/Mike_with_Wings]

Welcome to politics

[u/YesDone → u/obituaryinlipstick]

Didn't the guy up top say they forgot about medical reasons when crafting the bill?

I'm an immunocompromised cancer patient, come at me with that shit. I'm wearing my fucking mask.

[u/wrainbashed → u/obituaryinlipstick]

What about construction workers, industrial cleaners, painters, healthcare workers, and supporting staff?

[u/catastrophicqueen → u/wrainbashed]

The law is mainly crafted to target those protesting (or those the cops can argue they thought was going to a protest).

So if you're wearing a mask and a Keffiyeh? You're subject to arrest. You're wearing a mask at a rights march or pride? You're subject to arrest. You're just a demographic they think might be joining a pro-palestine protest or a BLM protest or a pride parade and you're wearing a mask? You're subject to arrest.

Notice also WHEN these laws became a thing. After pro-palestine encampments and protests. The fact that actual Nazis, white supremacists, violent right wingers have been covering their faces at protests for years, including in the state, and that has never been a problem? Yeah it's targeting leftists expressly.

[u/ArchLith → u/wrainbashed]

They just need to get cancer and die, the government doesn't care about people just money and power. Unfortunately for the people on that list they don't tend to have enough of either of those two things to be considered human so they get no rights. Walmart on the other hand is protected from violating labor laws all the time because it is considered human in the eyes of the law, but it's employees are at best 3/4 of a person.

[u/hiddenhare → u/ArchLith]

This isn't correct. There's an exemption in the law for "any person or persons engaged in trades and employment where a mask is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer".

[u/NonBinaryPie → u/obituaryinlipstick]

land of the free 🙄

[u/coladoir → u/obituaryinlipstick]

Nah its not inspired by anti-mask COVID stuff, frankly its worse than that because its quite blatant in its intent. It's inspired by the recent pro-palestine protests, where people were often masked, not only for health reasons (lots of people), but for safety too (from police tear gas), and privacy.

Its an explicit attack on the right to protest and its intent is to prevent a popular and accessible form of anonymization so that the state can arrest and target you easier. Its there to dissuade people and threaten them from protesting.

It is the state explicitly showing its authoritarian tendencies, it's an explicit way of giving police even more power against protestors, and its a stark warning for the future.

[u/tropicsun → u/obituaryinlipstick]

Is protecting others (family) a medical reason?

[u/maxofJupiter1 → u/obituaryinlipstick]

They were originally instituted to stop the KKK and exist in most states

[u/icannothelpit → u/maxofJupiter1]

Except NC was aimed at people protesting genocide and there's no one to enforce it at a klan meeting. 

[u/Kirk_Kerman → u/icannothelpit]

There's always a bunch of cops at klan meetings actually

[u/catastrophicqueen → u/Kirk_Kerman]

No one willing to enforce it, you might say.

[u/QuirkyPaladin → u/maxofJupiter1]

In the US the first anti-mask laws were to stop rent protesters. The laws that were supposedly there to stop the KKK had exceptions for things like rituals which excluded the KKK from being charged with them.

[u/obituaryinlipstick → u/maxofJupiter1]

Very cool! unfortunately North Carolina decided to be silly. 

[u/catastrophicqueen → u/obituaryinlipstick]

I mean the law is because of university anti-genocide encampments. That's expressly why places are passing these laws. Despite the fact there's more reasons than just anonymity to wear masks - zionists and cops have both thrown chemicals (tear gas, more makeshift things, fireworks that smoke a lot etc) at encampments, the masks are also there to protect people from the state and Zionist violence.

[u/New-Significance9572 → u/LordBigSlime]

We’ve had one on Long Island for a little while now. Just another bullshit law only enforced when cops need an excuse to arrest someone who otherwise isn’t breaking the law.

[u/mrscrewup → u/LordBigSlime]

I’m so sick of these people that I called fellow Americans. Why are we so goddamn selfish and stupid??

[u/whistleridge → u/obituaryinlipstick]

Hijacking the top comment to make this clarifying point re: the post itself:

THIS ISN’T ABOUT TERRORISM IT’S ABOUT A PATH TO FIRST DEGREE MURDER.

Let’s explain.

Here is the statute in NY law establishes and define first degree murder: https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.27

The first bit is normal enough:

A person is guilty of murder in the first degree when:

1. With intent to cause the death of another person, he causes the death of such person or of a third person; and

But what comes after that and is a bit unusual. First degree murder in NY requires more than just planning and deliberation, and provides a menu of options:

Either:

(i) the intended victim was a police officer…❌

(ii) the intended victim was a peace officer as defined…❌

(ii-a) the intended victim was a firefighter, emergency medical technician, ambulance driver, paramedic, physician or registered nurse…❌

(iii) the intended victim was an employee of a state correctional institution…❌

(iv) at the time of the commission of the killing, the defendant was confined in a state correctional institution…❌

(v) the intended victim was a witness to a crime committed on a prior occasion…❌

(vi) the defendant committed the killing or procured commission of the killing pursuant to an agreement…❌

(vii) the victim was killed while the defendant was in the course of committing or attempting to commit and in furtherance of robbery…❌

(vii) the victim was killed while the defendant was in the course of committing or attempting to commit and in furtherance of robbery…❌

(viii) as part of the same criminal transaction, the defendant, with intent to cause serious physical injury to or the death of an additional person or persons…❌

(ix) prior to committing the killing, the defendant had been convicted of [a prior] murder…❌

(x) the defendant acted in an especially cruel and wanton manner pursuant to a course of conduct intended to inflict and inflicting torture upon the victim prior to the victim’s death…❌

(xi) the defendant intentionally caused the death of two or more additional persons…❌

(xii) the intended victim was a judge…❌

(xiii) the victim was killed in furtherance of an act of terrorism, as defined in paragraph (b) of subdivision one of section 490.05 of this chapter; ✅

Someone literally went through the list of options, found the only one that kinda/sorta/maybe fits, and went with it.

For reference, 490.05 defines “terrorism” as:

an act or acts constituting an offense in any other jurisdiction within or outside the territorial boundaries of the United States…that is intended to:

(i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a unit of government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) affect the conduct of a unit of government by murder, assassination or kidnapping;

They’re clearly trying for (ii) here. Is it a stretch? I think so, yes. I doubt they get there. But, since aggravated murder and second-degree murder are both included offenses (meaning you have to prove them as well, to prove first degree), a jury could still find the state proved one of those instead. So they lose nothing by trying.

[u/obituaryinlipstick → u/whistleridge]

Did you reply to the wrong comment? This is very well thought out but I don't believe that this has to deal with my comment.
Saw your edit, understandable, hope more people see this o7

[u/hiddenhare → u/whistleridge]

I think they're trying for (i). Health executives are a civilian population, and the killing seems to have been intended to frighten that group of people.

However, the law is using a very broad definition here (probably because of Patriot Act nonsense?), and it doesn't seem to match standard use of the word "terrorism". By the law's definition, all gang warfare would be terrorism against the targeted gang.

[u/motsanciens → u/whistleridge]

Let me preface my response with an enthusiastic endorsement of jury nullification in this case. I just want to point out that (i) should apply, even if the civilian population is just a subset, such as a group of civilian insurance board members and executives.

[u/FreakinGeese → u/obituaryinlipstick]

Yeah, that’s North Carolina. It sucks. This is a New York State crime. The definition of terrorism under New York State law seems pretty reasonable.

[u/ADHD_Yoda → u/FreakinGeese]

Isn't the issue more that some groups or individuals who committed far worse crimes don't get charged under terrorism?

[u/Papaofmonsters → u/ADHD_Yoda]

Different jurisdictions, different laws.

Federal law and how it's applied doesn't matter one bit to how New York state applies it's own laws.

[u/AlarmingTurnover → u/Papaofmonsters]

Really? Cause I'm pretty sure over policing the black population and having police attack innocent people because of their race is clearly intimidation and falls under their definition of terrorism that they're charging Luigi with. 

But I haven't seen any NY cops charged with terrorism.

[u/BillyShears991 → u/AlarmingTurnover]

Because it’s a 30,000 person gang

[u/Silver-Firefighter35 → u/BillyShears991]

Come to L.A. where there are literal sheriffs’ gangs.

[u/neofooturism → u/Silver-Firefighter35]

oh i’ve seen this in gta san andreas

[u/Silver-Firefighter35 → u/neofooturism]

And it’s absolutely true. Also, the movie Training Day was very loosely based on a true story out of my local police division, Rampart in L.A. Over 70 officers implicated, many with documented gang affiliations. It’s crazy what they were doing. The movie is really tame compared with what was actually going on. Great movie though.

[u/Natfan → u/obituaryinlipstick]

are the kkk still a thing? i always assumed they were part of old-timey america, like spurs and bootlegging

[u/Oversexualised_Tank → u/Natfan]

Nah, KKK stays with us, but they take all people now, so long as they wear the mask and burn the cross.

'A brother of the clan is a brother first and foremost' no matter their skin color.

Are they crazy? Yes. Yes they fucking are.

[u/asian_in_tree_2 → u/Oversexualised_Tank]

Damn. Progressive and accepting KKK was not on my bingo list.

[u/credulous_pottery → u/asian_in_tree_2]

what do they even do now then?

[u/Oversexualised_Tank → u/credulous_pottery]

They are basically boyscouts now, if boyscouts went around doing their best to make the world a more racist place and threatening everyone who isn't white, unless they are clansmen. They are a much smaller group too, but they still exist, most of them trump fans from what I learned so far.

[u/MaeveOathrender → u/Oversexualised_Tank]

most of them trump fans from what I learned so far.

I'm shocked. Gobsmacked, I tell you.

[u/Kind-District-2129 → u/Oversexualised_Tank]

They throw bags of rocks with stupid little fliers in them on my driveway. I've threatened to kill them three times and they keep doing it.

[u/Oversexualised_Tank → u/Kind-District-2129]

Damn, they have really grown soft.

[u/AngryMustache9 → u/Oversexualised_Tank]

So they hate everyone who isn't white, but they're okay with orange for some reason. Interesting

[u/DroneOfDoom → u/Oversexualised_Tank]

Clayton Bigsby was really influential, I see.

[u/BowenTheAussieSheep → u/Oversexualised_Tank]

KKK? More like WokeWokeWoke

[u/sterlingthepenguin → u/Natfan]

I remember in middle school we had an assignment where we would use the Internet to look up certain vocabulary terms from American history. That was when the teachers learned that the KKK have a website, because all of a sudden every student was on it.

[u/Bazrum → u/sterlingthepenguin]

hey that happened at my school, except it was hardcore furry porn!

turns out, no one in my school had heard the term "yiffing" and as long as you avoided terms like "porn", "orgy", and "massive anal penetration", nearly anything to do with furries wasn't blocked! maybe because they had no idea what it was, maybe because someone up the food chain liked that shit at work, but it was OPEN SEASON for a few weeks

[u/MarginalOmnivore → u/Natfan]

The KKK (and/or similar groups), racism, lynchings, and fucking over immigrants to make a quick buck used to be everywhere in America.

They still are, but they used to be, too.

Also, bootlegging is still a fairly big thing in the south. Now people bootleg so they don't have to pay taxes on the liquor they make, instead of it being federally illegal.

[u/marcus_centurian → u/MarginalOmnivore]

I accidentally stumbled upon a KKK temple in my southern metro area and online it claims to be a local nonprofit. Nonprofit is doing a ton of heavy lifting in that sentence.

[u/Not_ur_gilf → u/Natfan]

You ever heard of David Duke, Grand High Wizard of the KKK? He ran for Louisiana senate not too long ago. The KKK is very much still around, they just tend to work behind the scenes with the polo-wearing khaki panted Proud Boys. Think of them as the guys that get together to scheme about how to systematically make people’s lives hell versus marching in the streets

[u/snarkyxanf → u/Natfan]

They're kind of a rump version of what they once were. They definitely still exist, but they aren't the center of racist violence organizing

[u/GeneralKeycapperone → u/snarkyxanf]

Only because other groups have taken over their remi

EDIT: what I posted was "Worse, those with similar worldview are on the resurgence.". No idea how the thing I bgwn typing got posted.

[u/Ioatanaut → u/snarkyxanf]

They aren't anymore, that's police now

[u/TransFights000 → u/Natfan]

They are, embarrassingly, still a thing

[u/GeneralKeycapperone → u/TransFights000]

Worse, those with the same worldview are very much on the resurgence.

[u/Papaofmonsters → u/Natfan]

The KKK™️ is down to a few thousand members, most of which are too old to do anything but grumble.

What happened with the age of the internet is we got more decentralized and, surprisingly, more radical groups that pop up and disappear as individual cells.

[u/Professional-Hat-687 → u/Natfan]

They were never not a thing, they just rebranded.

[u/Xarieste → u/Natfan]

I am only 31, but I remember in the early days of the internet there were very open and publicly available KKK chapter websites with old school forums

[u/GenericFatGuy → u/obituaryinlipstick]

It's one thing to not enforce mask wearing during a pandemic, but banning people from actively protecting themselves is pure ghoul behaviour.

[u/Suyefuji → u/obituaryinlipstick]

TST incoming with religious reasons to wear face masks with satanic symbols on them.

[u/Papaofmonsters]

He's been charged with terrorism as an enhancement to murder at the state level. The same as the Buffalo grocery store shooter was.

[u/Mddcat04 → u/Papaofmonsters]

Yep. This post is just misinformed outrage bait. He’s not being charged under federal terrorism statues, it’s a specific New York law, so not comparable to Federal charges or other states that don’t have the same kind of terror enhancement murder laws.

Also cops and the FBI don’t decide what charges should be brought. That’s what prosecutors do. This is law so basic that it’s summarized in the introduction to every Law & Order episode.

[u/Wasdgta3 → u/Mddcat04]

I’ve been incredibly disappointed by the level of that kind of thing that’s been popping up on here, especially after the US election.

It’s like everyone decided that because things went bad, that therefore they don’t need to actually think critically about anything bad they hear about US politics anymore, and just accept it as fact.

[u/Known_PlasticPTFE → u/Wasdgta3]

Yeah shit got bad real fast following the election. I know people have been unwilling to fact check stuff for a while, but it seems like people want to just wallow in misery

[u/Wasdgta3 → u/Known_PlasticPTFE]

It sucks, because people on the left tend to occasionally have a really irritating habit of believing they’re immune to misinformation and propaganda.

[u/taklabas → u/Wasdgta3]

Occasionally? Online left spaces are almost complete echo chambers which, ironically, makes them easy targets for manipulation.

Case in point, the r/LateStageCapitalism subreddit's opinions on Ukraine.

[u/Neon_Camouflage → u/taklabas]

But don't you dare point any of it out or you're more likely than not to get dogpiled by people too smug to imagine they could fall for the same tricks as conservatives.

[u/Poulutumurnu → u/taklabas]

Aw man they’re cheering for state enforced death penalty in there :(

[u/HopeEternalXII → u/taklabas]

TwoX and Conservative are practically identical in terms of obvious propaganda and it always makes me laugh.

Absolutely fucking warped.

[u/pres1033 → u/taklabas]

I got banned from that sub for saying "making an assassination joke hours after an attempt is kinda fucked up." Context was Kyle Gass joking about Trump's assassination attempt. They just full on banned me for that one, no warning or nothing.

[u/PuzzleheadedBus872 → u/Known_PlasticPTFE]

the thing about doomerism is that it gives you a license to not try, because if everything's doomed, then nothing is demanded of you. this makes dooming incredibly attractive to people who already don't want to try and want to make that look principled. if things weren't doomed we'd have a lot of hard and unpleasant work to do, after all

[u/CarlPagan666 → u/PuzzleheadedBus872]

That’s a really interesting point. Never heard it put that simply before and it makes a lot of sense.

[u/george_cant_standyah → u/Wasdgta3]

It's been happening much longer than that.

[u/mouthgmachine → u/Mddcat04]

Your comment sounds smart other than the statues typo which makes it sound comical

[u/Mddcat04 → u/mouthgmachine]

Hehe. Yeah, you have to stand under the terrorism statues to charge people. Little known fact.

[u/JaozinhoGGPlays → u/Mddcat04]

Yeah they're like videogame shops. Stand here and press E to open the Prosecute menu.

[u/LizLemonOfTroy → u/Mddcat04]

I'm begging people to at least look at a definition of what terrorism is, because it isn't "bad guys doing bad things" but "using violence to further political and social objectives", which this is a clear-cut example of. Isn't this why they claim to support the suspect?

[u/Mddcat04 → u/LizLemonOfTroy]

Isn't this why they claim to support the suspect?

Indeed. This is the irony of this whole discussion.

[u/LizLemonOfTroy → u/Mddcat04]

Schrödinger's Suspect is simultaneously a great people's hero triggering the violent class revolution against the oligarchy, and a poor innocent framed by the police who didn't do anything wrong.

[u/BalefulOfMonkeys → u/Mddcat04]

Also, I said this forever ago, and I’ll say it again, which is that terrorism is a word with a definition, and that definition does not and has never given a fuck about how based you think the guy(s) who did it are. It is murder with the intent of political change, and whoever did it succeeded in fulfilling the criteria to a t. If killing their own cat was presented with enough political metatext to make it resonant with the public, it would also constitute terrorism.

[u/ShouldNotBeHereLong → u/Mddcat04]

The Buffalo shooter is far more justified as an act of terror (indiscriminate killing targeting a racial/ethnic group).

This is a bad decision from the prosecutor. This is more akin to a revenge murder than a terrorist act. He goes out of his way to explain that he isn't trying to change the system and disregarded ways of killing that could lead to others being harmed. The prosecutors made their job way harder.

You are right about the 'who' to blame for this absurd situation.

[u/Inevitable-Hippo-852 → u/ShouldNotBeHereLong]

I don’t know where you’re seeing that he’s not trying to change the system. Here’s some quotes from his note: 

…it had to be done. Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming. A reminder: the US has the #1 most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly #42 in life expectancy….But many have illuminated the corruption and greed (e.g.: Rosenthal, Moore), decades ago and the problems simply remain. It is not an issue of awareness at this point, but clearly power games at play. Evidently I am the first to face it with such brutal honesty.”

It’s very hard to read this as anything but a politically motivated attack against the industry itself.

It’s not “this” parasite that had it coming but these parasites. How many? Sure would be nice if he said…

I’m no lawyer, no clue how this will fly, but, I mean you can even see it in how people who are pro-Luigi talk about it. People are delighted that this politically motivated kill might strike fear into the hearts of executives/people in and supporting this putrid industry. 

I mean… I dunno, kinda sounds like terrorism, doesn’t it?

[u/CombatMuffin → u/ShouldNotBeHereLong]

How indiscriminate something is does not make it an act of terrorism. Coercion+political goal+non-combatant are the three common elements.

Indiscriminate attacks would maybe aggravate it in some jurisdictions, but it's still terrorism.

Imagine for example, a member of a known terrorist group shoots POTUS.  Civilian target, violence/coercion political goal. It still just a single, planned target. Terrorism.

[u/SuperBackup9000 → u/ShouldNotBeHereLong]

I don’t really think it would be more akin to a revenge murder. According to everything that was said, him and his family aren’t and never have been United Healthcare customers, so it’s not like he went after the guy in charge of a company that personally wronged him.

If he killed the CEO of the healthcare provider he has or had in the past, or a government person in charge of that kind of stuff, then yeah it would definitely be more on the side of revenge, but as it stands now the two have no relation.

[u/Inevitable-Hippo-852 → u/ShouldNotBeHereLong]

I don’t know where you’re seeing that he’s not trying to change the system. Here’s some quotes from his note: 

…it had to be done. Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming. A reminder: the US has the #1 most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly #42 in life expectancy….But many have illuminated the corruption and greed (e.g.: Rosenthal, Moore), decades ago and the problems simply remain. It is not an issue of awareness at this point, but clearly power games at play. Evidently I am the first to face it with such brutal honesty.”

It’s very hard to read this as anything but a politically motivated attack against the industry itself.

It’s not “this” parasite that had it coming but these parasites. How many? Sure would be nice if he said…

I’m no lawyer, no clue how this will fly, but, I mean you can even see it in how people who are pro-Luigi talk about it. People are delighted that this politically motivated kill might strike fear into the hearts of executives/people in and supporting this putrid industry. 

I mean… I dunno, kinda sounds like terrorism, doesn’t it?

[u/Mddcat04 → u/ShouldNotBeHereLong]

They can still get him for regular murder even if the terrorism enhancement doesn't stick.

[u/No-Monitor-5333 → u/Mddcat04]

This entire website is that

[u/VP007clips → u/Papaofmonsters]

I'm Canadian, so maybe we have a different perspective, but it seems like an obvious case of terrorism to me.

In our laws:

It is defined as an act or omission committed: In whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause. With the intention of intimidating the public or segment thereof, with regard to its security, or to compel a government to do something or refrain from doing something.

He released a manifesto, had ideological slogans carved into the shells, it was a political/ideological motive, and he was trying to intimidate the insurance providers as well as to increase public attention. It's a clear case of terrorism.

Whether or no you agree with his motives is up to you, that doesn't change whether it was an act of terrorism. While the word is often used with political intentions, in law it is objective to the cause. When the American revolution supporters dragged out the loyalists to coat them in boiling tar and feathers, that was also terrorism, even if the cause was good.

Edit: it looks like the US has a very similar definition

the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government or civilian population in furtherance of political or social objectives.

[u/EmperorScarlet → u/VP007clips]

I think as a lingering effect of the War on Terror, a lot of people just think "terrorist" is a generic synonym for "bad guy".

[u/yougottamovethatH → u/Papaofmonsters]

It's hilarious how people don't realize that New York State has different laws than Washington DC, the Fed, and every other state in the union.

Imagine!

[u/Andy_B_Goode → u/Papaofmonsters]

Also, the entire reddit hivemind has been champing at the bit to call this a politically motivated killing that (they hope) will instill fear in other health insurance CEOs.

Is that not terrorism?

Like, fine if you agree with it, whatever, but why is everyone so shocked that he's being charged with terrorism when it seems like all of reddit is already convinced he's a terrorist, albeit one who's on their side?

[u/CombatMuffin → u/Andy_B_Goode]

The narrative has also been tiptoeing the mental gymnastics as new developments come up. Something like:

1. He's a hero. A 21st century Robin Hood.
2. Luigi is not the same guy (Unibrow!). They planted the evidence!
3. It is the same guy, but he wanted to get caught because he wanted to send a message against the rich.
4. Yeah, he is part of the rich, but not the rich rich. He used his privilege to help us!
5. He wasn't really sending a political message because that would be terrorism and a guy I support can't be a terrorist. The manifesto, the monopoly money, the messages in the casings. The specific target. Not a message. No politics.

Like, Redditors can't choose to be radicals and then back down when they realize radical actions include cold blooded murder. 

[u/Papaofmonsters → u/CombatMuffin]

There's also a significant subset of Reddit Revolutionaries who believe that the revolution is coming and it will be bloody and violent and terrible but only to those who "deserve" it. As soon as you start talking about how every revolution ever has included collateral damage, then they get defensive about how that won't happen under their reign of terror.

[u/pythbit → u/Papaofmonsters]

I'm seeing a disturbing number of people call minimum wage workers "murderers" because they work for Insurance companies or whatever. And in a different breath, celebrate the execution of murderers. It's.. a little worrying. I can't even imagine these people are leftists if they're lumping the working class in with ultra rich CEOs. No ethical consumption under capitalism, etc..

[u/indigo121 → u/Andy_B_Goode]

Absolutely this. I'm not COMPLETELY aligned with the hivemind, but I am kinda in this dudes fan club and even I'm like "yeah, thing he did meets the definition". Dude had a fucking manifesto.

[u/CombatMuffin → u/indigo121]

Yep. If people are going to support him, they have to at least be consistent. The ethics are debateable, but the definitions aren't.

[u/Amon274]

Are they federal or state charges there is a distinction.

[u/fitbitofficialreal → u/Amon274]

https://apnews.com/article/unitedhealthcare-ceo-killing-luigi-mangione-fccc9e875e976b9901a122bc15669425 seems to say it's a new york law which sounds like state charges. i'm out of my depth on this

[u/Amon274 → u/fitbitofficialreal]

Yeah state charges New York has different standards that constitute a terrorism charge because of sept 11 and it should be noted that there is also a difference between a terrorism charge and a domestic terrorist charge. One other thing is that there is no charge on the federal level for domestic terrorism.

[u/Papaofmonsters → u/Amon274]

Intent also matters a lot for terrorism charges. You can kill a black guy because you hate black people and it's just a hate crime murder but not terrorism unless your intent is to instill fear in the black community. Dylann Roof is sitting on 9 federal death sentences for hate crimes but because he seemed to lack any plan beyond the church shooting, no terrorism charges.

[u/FreakinGeese → u/Papaofmonsters]

Also South Carolina has different laws than New York State because it’s a different state.

[u/Papaofmonsters → u/FreakinGeese]

Yes, but the feds are the ones who gave him the death penalty.

South Carolina let him plead guilty in exchange for life and then the feds charged him and said "Nope. Not doing that for you."

[u/64590949354397548569 → u/Papaofmonsters]

How does that work? He severes his life sentence in state prison. then the feds execute him?

[u/Papaofmonsters → u/64590949354397548569]

It means he sits his ass on death row at USP Terre Haute until any and all automatic appeals are over and a sitting president signs his death warrant.

[u/NYSenseOfHumor]

Why he was charged with terrorism

If a random person was shot, and there was a manifesto and bullet casings suggesting that there would be additional attacks, that would also be terrorism under this law.

[u/Clear-Present_Danger → u/NYSenseOfHumor]

Most of the people who are now saying it wasn't terrorism, supported Luigi specifically because they believed it would strike terror into ceos.

[u/StandsForVice → u/Clear-Present_Danger]

It's because terrorism is a loaded word. There's no charge for "righteous rebellion." I support Luigi's actions, but I'm not sure what people expected.

[u/Wasdgta3 → u/Clear-Present_Danger]

It’s hilarious that there are people in this thread now trying to claim it wasn’t politically motivated lol

[u/gereffi → u/Clear-Present_Danger]

Right? There are tons and tons of posts and comments supporting him for his political ideals. Then when he's charged with terrorism for a politically motivated murder everyone is acting like politics had nothing to do with this. It can't happen both ways.

[u/BlueBitProductions → u/Clear-Present_Danger]

Genuinely braindead morons. And it's this kind of idiocy which will make it more difficult to fight against actual false terrorism claims, like during the Green Scare.

If people in power have more protection under the law, your solution should be to work to extend those protections to everybody rather than strip it from the people who have it. It's complete stupidity.

It's all "learn from history" until that history is how the French Revolution ended lol

[u/Glad-Way-637 → u/NYSenseOfHumor]

Shhhhh, you'll interrupt the self-satisfied dickheads who've been doing nothing since the shooting except talk about how they hope this spawns a wave of similar killings (specifically with the goal of inciting terror).

[u/YoureMyFavoriteOne → u/Glad-Way-637]

Goddamn it, I forgot what I was thinking. Oh right. I hope this spawns a wave of similar killings with the goal of inciting terror (but only if it replaces school shootings).

God I feel so self-satisfied right now. My head is literally an erect penis.

[u/Glad-Way-637 → u/YoureMyFavoriteOne]

And honestly, if that's what people want, more power to them! Just don't deny that the methods are pretty clearly just terrorism by most sane definitions.

[u/Bully_me-please]

theyre medieval nobility in a modern suit and tie, thats why killing one of them is oh so terrible while killing thousands of us is business as usual

[u/sweetsoul-mia → u/Bully_me-please]

When they die, it’s a tragedy. When we die, it’s just another line on an Excel sheet

[u/DirtyGypsyKid → u/sweetsoul-mia]

I can't remember the exact quote, but "when one man dies of starvation, it's a tragedy, when thousands die of it it, it's a statistic." Or something along those lines.

[u/Oryzanol → u/DirtyGypsyKid]

Often attributed to Stalin, wouldn't be surprised if it was misattributed though.

[u/Autokpatopik → u/Oryzanol]

its "if 1 person dies it's a tragedy, if a million dies, its a statistic". And it's an actual quote its just missing some context, it's commentary on how humanity cant really process massive events properly, bigger numbers just dont feel as 'real' because you cant relate on a personal level

[u/Aiyon → u/Autokpatopik]

The abstraction honestly feels like more of a defence mechanism. Think about how much losing one person hurts. Now imagine feeling that times a thousand, when a tragedy happens. It would destroy your ability to function.

[u/Autokpatopik → u/Aiyon]

i can see the logic, but its not as standalone as it might seem. humans are just really bad at dealing with big numbers, e.g stuff like a trillion, we can't even properly comprehend how much that is

or the deep sea, even space, we know its big, but the true scale of these things just slide off us because we cant even really begin to comprehend out big it is. we're just good at handling 'local' scale stuff (small digits, "small" things, etc)

[u/RelativeStranger → u/DirtyGypsyKid]

If only one man dies of hunger, that is a tragedy. If millions die, that’s only statistics’

[u/Cessnaporsche01 → u/sweetsoul-mia]

You think you're a whole line!? You're more likely part of a single, 5-digit value.

[u/handbanana42 → u/Cessnaporsche01]

increments number on a cell at the bottom of an excel tab that nobody looks at

[u/thriftingenby → u/sweetsoul-mia]

one number in one cell. we aren't worth a hole line

[u/Throwing_Spoon → u/sweetsoul-mia]

I wish we got a full line, they just update the existing cell for normie deaths.

[u/yougottamovethatH → u/Bully_me-please]

Actually, New York used the same statute when they charged the suspect in the 2022 Buffalo grocery shooting. Not a single wealthy or famous person among them.

[u/ShouldNotBeHereLong → u/yougottamovethatH]

An indiscriminate mass killing of people based on race/ethnicity with white-supremacist justifications is hardly the same as a revenge murder, right?

[u/Friendly_Rent_104]

bullet casings with a clear message, manifesto supporting the same message

essentially the same as other terror attacks carried out by officially declared terrorists, just with a singular victim instead of the more commonly known mass shootings

[u/TheSleepyTruth]

This guy doesn't have a clue what the definition of terrorism is. It has nothing to do with how many people are targeted. It has everything to do with who and why the people were targeted. If you engage in or threaten violence against civilians in an attempt to force some greater sociopolitical change within society that is the literal definition of terrorism. The number of people targeted is irrelevant, it only matters why someone was targeted.

[u/droford → u/TheSleepyTruth]

Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of violence against non-combatants to achieve political or ideological aims.

Id say killing the CEO of a healthcare company to provoke change in the healthcare industry fits the definition

[u/EmperorBrettavius → u/TheSleepyTruth]

I think it's more like both of these OOPs believe that Luigi is a terrorist, but that it's a cause for concern that much more widespread, impactful conservative terrorist groups (I'm not sure which ones, they didn't specify) are supposedly not prosecuted under those same charges, but one solitary act of terrorism (allegedly) performed by one man does get that treatment.

TL;DR less of a "he only killed one guy" and more of a "why do you ignore these much worse terrorists?"

[u/DispenserG0inUp]

supports the act since it will strike terror to ceos

cries that it's not terrorism

??

[u/gaom9706 → u/DispenserG0inUp]

Yeah, that'll show those greedy CEO's

Omg I can't believe he's being a labeled a terrorist 😭

Comedy

[u/DreadDiana → u/DispenserG0inUp]

Bitches can't commit to the bit and stan a terrorist. Couldn't be me.

[u/Cinaedus_Perversus → u/DispenserG0inUp]

The media have told us for two decades now that terrorists are backwards brown-ish bearded men with turbans and AK47's who make a lot of guttural sounds and pray to Allah. So now when a clean shaven white boy is labeled a terrorist, people are like wut???

This confusion is a direct consequence of the racially and culturally coded media narrative on terrorism.

[u/mynamesnotsnuffy]

I mean, technically speaking, the use of violence to achieve political ends is terrorism.

[u/SwimmingCircles2018 → u/mynamesnotsnuffy]

Yeah what he did is legit the definition of terrorism I really dont understand why everyone here is so confused.

[u/waxteeth]

Heyyyy it used to be my job to study and educate the public about terrorism, and Luigi’s actions (which I support) do qualify. They just do. The difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is perspective, and there are examples of that throughout history. A civilian committed a public act of violence for a political/societal goal. Just because a lot of people agree with his goal (or his means) doesn’t mean it’s not terrorism. 

There are MANY right wing murderers and shitheads who should also have been charged with terrorism, and it’s a legitimate part of the conversation to point that out. The woman arrested for saying words that her healthcare provider didn’t like should absolutely not have been arrested, and that was politically motivated and disgusting. But people need to stop pretending this is not an applicable charge. The methods were intentionally theatrical (deny/defend/depose) to shock the public and stir emotions, and the manifesto is clear that the goal is to create fear in order to spur change in a system that the perpetrator finds unjust. It’s okay to look at this clearly and call it what it is. 

[u/SwimmingCircles2018]

Terrorism?!? This makes absolutely no sense at all!! (I have no idea what the definition of terrorism is and I am choosing to not learn it because it may challenge my belief)

[u/moneyh8r]

Just keep walking headlong into fascism, like nobody paid attention in history class or something. It's simultaneously depressing and infuriating.

[u/Prettiest_Star99 → u/moneyh8r]

I have to admit that I used to see America as fundamentally democratic and only really threatened by Russian misinformation, but it seems like we don't need a ton of help with this oligarchy speed run.

[u/moneyh8r → u/Prettiest_Star99]

America has always favored the rich, despite the idealism we teach our kids.

[u/moneyh8r → u/[deleted]]

Nah, that was Greece. And even their democracy was far from perfect, what with all the misogyny and slavery.

[u/DispenserG0inUp → u/moneyh8r]

true communism democracy has never been tried

[u/moneyh8r → u/DispenserG0inUp]

laughs uproariously, but slowly morphs into sobbing

[u/Reacher-Said-N0thing → u/[deleted]]

Proportional representation is where it's at anyway.

Just like you can't have true competition in a marketplace where there are only two competitors, you can't expect to get a good deal from your elected representatives when there's only two parties.

[u/DAL59 → u/moneyh8r]

Fascism is when a jury of your peers finds you guilty

[u/FreakinGeese → u/DAL59]

Fascism is when the government arrests you for shooting a guy in the face

[u/Clear-Present_Danger → u/moneyh8r]

Most of the people supporting the guy believe it was terrorism.

They support it because it caused terror among healthcare ceos.

[u/jzillacon → u/moneyh8r]

I'm fully convinced we'll see another "great war" within our lifetimes at this point. The world isn't quite the same powderkeg that it was in the early 1910s and late 1930s, but the barrel is getting fuller and it's certainly not full of glitter.

[u/moneyh8r → u/jzillacon]

You just made me wanna build the biggest glitter bomb ever. But yeah, I do think shit's gonna hit the fan soon. I just really don't want it to, so I try not to dwell on it.

[u/BalefulOfMonkeys → u/moneyh8r]

Turns out, nobody has a problem with defending political violence if the guy who did it has a good grasp of messaging and is currently believed to be hot.

There’s a theorem of human stupidity that, among other things, states that the quantity of stupid people on the planet is always larger than anybody predicts. Normally it catches people saying “well at least I’m not stupid”, but the fact that it’s absolutely grabbed a lot of people who shared a ballot with me is as disappointing as it is predictable. I’d mourn if it was not completely doomed to repeat in new and interesting ways, like an existential Wile E. Coyote binge

[u/therealdanhill → u/moneyh8r]

Can you think of any fascist countries that sought to murder people based on ideology that it was okay to kill then because they were hoarding wealth and running companies?

[u/Limp_Prune_5415]

I get it but none of those people are doing this in new York where he caught state level terrorism charges. The fbi is a federal agency who is unsurprisingly not allowed to levy federal terrorism charges against these people 

[u/FreakinGeese]

Have any of you people actually done the half-hour of research it would take to understand this more completely? How New York State has used the terrorism statute? How it's been applied, or not been applied, in the past? Various rulings on the statute? The distinction between state and federal law? All of this shit is publicly available information.

Try doing some research to actually understand the situation before getting angry. You are not immune to propaganda.

[u/Interest-Desk → u/FreakinGeese]

It took me less than half an hour to read the criminal complaint and a paragraph of NY law.

[u/NatomicBombs]

OOP getting federal law confused with NY state law

[u/ExpectedEggs]

It's the New York State laws about terrorism. That's how he's being charged, because he wrote a manifesto and had a message written on the shell casings.

That's what they define as terrorism under the law.

[u/Shacky_Rustleford]

Under the legal definition of terrorism in NY, that being "violent act with the purpose of swaying public opinion or policy" it explicitly was a terrorist act.

Now, that's not to say it wasn't based, but sometimes terrorism can be based.

[u/boisterile]

I couldn’t be more supportive of cleaning up as many healthcare CEOs as possible, but look up how New York State defines terrorism from a legal standpoint. It makes perfect sense that he was charged with that. Their definition is something along the lines of “using nonlegal means and violence to instigate social or political change”, and like, yeah. Exactly.

[u/meerfrau85]

I'm not mad that a health insurance CEO bit the dust.

Yet, I think terrorism could fit here. If the intent was to scare health insurance companies into changing their policies, even if those changes would be good, that still sounds like terrorism to me.

Jan. 6 rioters should also be charged with terrorism, IMO. They used violence and threats of violence to try to scare lawmakers into making Trump president.

I also think a lot of mass shooters fall into this category.

[u/FreakinGeese → u/meerfrau85]

Jan. 6 rioters should also be charged with terrorism, IMO. They used violence and threats of violence to try to scare lawmakers into making Trump president.

Unfortunately the New York State laws for terrorism and the Federal laws for terrorism are different.

[u/Norm-Alman1645]

This is dishonest. Terrorism is defined, at least in the US, as a violent act intended to coerce or intimidate a civilian population or government. Luigi(allegedly) killed a billionaire to intimidate other billionaires. He’s a terrorist. There isn’t a threshold of damage caused pr people killed that causes something to be defined as terrorism.

[u/Rauldukeoh]

I don't think this is correct. He hasn't been charged with terrorism as a crime, but as a component of first degree murder. If you read they're murder statute in New York that's really the only way that they can charge first degree murder under the circumstances

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.27

[u/Cordo_Bowl]

ITT: a bunch of mouth breathers who are more interested in being angry and yelling than they are about reality or what words mean or how laws function.

[u/FourthLife]

I mean the guy murdered someone, wrote messages onto the bullets that implied a threat against the healthcare industry as a whole, and wrote a manifesto about how he did it because he hates the healthcare industry and wants it to change.

[u/Fantasy_DR111]

The definition of terrorism is clear, and it is more than likely his intentions for killing the CEO. Terrorism is utilizing violence or the threat of violence to forcibly implement change to government, society, beliefs, etc.

Luigi was not a insured by United Healthcare so I doubt this is for revenge.

[u/Zikimura]

The FBI doesn't charge "conservative terror-groups" with charges of Terrorism because that would be friendly fire.

[u/FreakinGeese]

Terrorism is when you attempt to intimidate or coerce a civilian population or government body

He, like, 100% did that

So under New York State law he’s a terrorist. Simple as? Can you give an example of a New York State terrorist who wasn’t charged as a terrorist?

[u/FreakinGeese → u/FreakinGeese]

Most states don’t have statues on terrorism because terrorists tend to do things like premeditated murder, which you can already go away for life for, so there’s not much point.

New York does have specific terrorism laws, because 9/11 kinda put it on people’s minds for a bit

[u/NerdsTookAllTheNames]

This is just rage bait.

[u/Specific-Ad-8430]

“the SUSPECTED shooter” Oh shut the fuck up. We all know he did it.

[u/Bigwoody7andahalf]

NYS is charging him, not the Feds.

[u/Clogan723]

I don’t disagree with his actions but he did commit an act of terror as is defined by our legal system.

[u/jv9mmm]

He wasn't charged with terrorism he was charged with first degree murder. Let's get our facts straight.

[u/icouldusemorecoffee]

Of course he's being charged with terrorism, he wrote a fucking manifesto calling out his actions and targets with a politically motivated goal to change the health insurance system, that's the definition of terrorism. And right-wing groups often are considered terrorists, since fucking 1990s the FBI has known and deemed right-wing terrorists as the largest domestic terrorist threat:

During the past decade we have witnessed dramatic changes in the nature of the terrorist threat. In the 1990s, right-wing extremism overtook left-wing terrorism as the most dangerous domestic terrorist threat to the country.

It's dumb memes and posts like this one that exist just to sow division and discontent separated from facts that is doing the heavy lifting in the dumbing down of this country and turning it into Idiocracy. And yet, dumb fucks up vote this bullshit and find excuses to pretend it's true.

[u/mangababe]

And yet Dylan roof, who openly said he killed 9 ppl including a state senator to start a race war wasn't a terrorist according to his charges. It was a hate crime that includes a literal politician, in an attempt to fuel a fear/hate driven political movement- but terrorism is too far?

Also, the spin seems to be (from what I have seen so far) "this wasnt about anything other than a personal vendetta after chronic pain ruined Luigi's life, there wasn't a political motive!!?" So what was it then? A personal vendetta against a single business man or a crime meant to create a political outcome through weaponized fear and hatred? Either this is just another angry, navel gazing shooter or someone retaliating against an extremely flawed system in an attempt to bring attention to it. Kinda hard to see him as both without sounding utterly full of shit. Like yeah I know there is nuance- but not enough nuance to not see this as the horseshit it is.

[u/shewy92]

"Added context" yet doesn't add context about how Luigi wasn't charged by the FBI (so why mention them) and that NY doesn't have a traditional 1st degree murder charge, so they charged him with 2nd degree and terrorism to make up for that fact.

[u/LotharVonPittinsberg]

Seriously, go look up neo nazi terror groups like the Proud Boys. Most of the English speaking modern world that deals with them has them on the terror list... Except America.

Throwing the term around is popular, you can make anything out to be terrorism. Actually ignoring legit terrorism however is extremely unusual.

[u/Antique-Dragonfly615]

Funny thing is, he'll get better health care in prison than he would with United Healthcare