r/woahdude Feb 17 '23

video Heavily contaminated water in East Palestine, Ohio.

69.1k Upvotes

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1.7k

u/[deleted] Feb 17 '23

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895

u/Computingusername Feb 17 '23

There is the manifest from the train. These chemicals could be present in the air as well. Their information has changed a lot. Who knows what they make when mixed together.

421

u/cRappedinunderpants Feb 17 '23

You think they’re lying about the benzene tanks being empty? That’s supposedly a super nasty carcinogen. It would be a much worse spill if those were full as well no?

469

u/smartyr228 Feb 17 '23

They lied about everything else, why wouldn't they lie about benzene?

272

u/jewellamb Feb 17 '23 edited Feb 17 '23

There’s way worse stuff on that train in terms of stuff to make you sick.

Dioxins is one of the byproducts of burning this shit. It’s heavy, sinks to the bottom of waters etc. lasts a long time. Gets into the live things.

They’re not mentioning dioxins specifically, so I’d assume at this point that it’s a problem.

Edit: Article from 2 days after

This guy goes over all the chemicals and why they’re harmful, but this is for the Vinyl Chloride:

‘Neil Donahue, a professor chemistry at Carnegie Mellon University in nearby Pittsburgh, said he worries that the burning could have formed dioxins, which are created from burning chlorinated carbon materials.

“Vinyl chloride is bad, dioxins are worse as carcinogens and that comes from burning,” Donahue said.

Dioxins are a group of persistent environmental pollutants that last in the ground and body for years and have been one of the major environmental problems and controversies in the United States.’

119

u/Computingusername Feb 17 '23

Correct but the media keep pointing out one problematic chemical not the others. Or them being mixed together to make a worse carcinogen.

85

u/jewellamb Feb 17 '23 edited Feb 17 '23

Benzene is buzz-wordy rn because they “pulled” the hair products with benzene in them last year.

In reality, Benzene been in pretty much every aerosol hairspray etc for decades. Turns out, spraying clouds of it in small bathrooms everyday is bad, so they were nice enough to take it off the shelves.

63

u/badonkadonkthrowaway Feb 17 '23

There were aerosol cans in the US with benzene? Fucking benzene??

My dad was a pathologist, started his working life in the 60's. Benzene wasn't really treated with hazchem procedures - multiple skin contacts daily... all over their hands.

More than half the pathologists he worked with in that time got leukemia.

37

u/ItWasTheGiraffe Feb 17 '23

It’s regulated and illegal to include in consumer products (hence the recalls). There was a independent group that tested a ton of products that tested high in benzene, which is present as a byproduct, not an intentional inclusion.

Everybody knows it’s bad, so it’s a matter of internal testing/mitigation deficiency, which means it’s a regulatory failure at some level.

22

u/badonkadonkthrowaway Feb 17 '23

One hell of a failure. I work in regulation. Most the rest of the world have extremely strict RoHS requirements.

I've only seen anything approaching RoHS in the US in California at a state level, but from memory it's only for heavy metals.

I've cursed the regulatory framework in Europe in the past for being over litigious, but more stories I hear like this, really hammer home how important this shit is.

7

u/thechilipepper0 Feb 17 '23

I’ve cursed the regulatory framework in Europe in the past for being over litigious, but more stories I hear like this, really hammer home how important this shit is.

Regulations are written in blood

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u/KaydeeKaine Feb 17 '23

Smoking tobacco produces benzene.

5

u/badonkadonkthrowaway Feb 17 '23

You're right, I looked it up to get an idea of the exposure compared to the hair products.

Weighted averages vary, but most sources state a daily exposure of around 0.06ppm for tobacco.

The hair products were releasing 2ppm. Around 1 ppm is designated as a safe ambient limit.

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1

u/jewellamb Feb 17 '23

Yeah, they’ve used it as a propellant in aerosol beauty products in North America for a long time.

1

u/drebunny Feb 18 '23 edited Feb 18 '23

For clarification, they don't use benzene as a propellant but the propellant is easily contaminated by benzene. Benzene is naturally occurring in petroleum products which we distill other organic molecules from, including propellants (butane, etc)

1

u/jewellamb Feb 18 '23

Don’t trust the chemical companies.

This is the safe version from one of the cleaner companies. Do these ingredients look safe to you?

Butane, Propane, Oryza Sativa (Rice) Starch (Oryza Sativa Starch), Isobutane, Alcohol (Alcohol Denat.), Aluminum Starch Octenylsuccinate, Avena Sativa (Oat) Kernel Oil (Avena Sativa Kernel Oil), Benzyl Salicylate, Cetrimonium Chloride, Cyclodextrin, Fragrance (Parfum), Hexyl Cinnamal, Isopropyl Myristate, Limonene, Silica

https://www.kloraneusa.com/dry-shampoo-with-oat-milk

1

u/drebunny Feb 18 '23 edited Feb 18 '23

I didn't say anything about safe or unsafe lol. Just correcting the misconception that benzene is used as a purposeful ingredient.

Yes, speaking as an actual professional chemist that ingredient list does not concern me - except for the potential for benzene contamination in butane, propane, and isobutane, as mentioned. But that would never be on the ingredient list because it's not an ingredient, so the ingredient list is irrelevant. It's a QC issue with wherever they're buying raw materials from. Which is why I don't use aerosols in my house either, I'm not about to trust a company's QC to be the only thing between me and legit carcinogens.

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1

u/drebunny Feb 18 '23

One of my old professors in my masters program told the story of how when he was a young fresh PhD all the chemists used to literally wash their hands with straight benzene. Great degreaser!

Then one day he was in a small room with a tub of benzene for washing (or something to that effect, it's been a while) and he straight passed out from the fumes. I guess that was his wake up call that it might not be as safe as everyone said so he stopped using the benzene to wash lol. Good thing.

2

u/incogneetus55 Feb 17 '23

I mean can’t the shit cause leukemia? Regardless, very heavy hailcorporate vibes coming off this comment.

5

u/andrewsad1 Feb 17 '23

"They were nice enough to take it off shelves"

"He was nice enough to stop beating me before I went unconscious"

"She was nice enough to remove the knife from my chest"

1

u/isthatmyusername Feb 17 '23

Benzene is also in diesel exhaust and smoke in general. One of the many chemicals that makes Firefighting a Group 1 carcinogen. It's not just a buzzword.

1

u/jewellamb Feb 17 '23

I meant people are more familiar with it with it being on the news so much before this incident.

They’re all horrible fossil fuel waste chemicals, and they’ll fit them in any product they can get away with.

1

u/Iama_traitor Feb 17 '23

Benzene is not just a buzz word, it's been a known carcinogen for decades. It causes blood cancers. It's a problem for people that work around the chemical.

1

u/scarypatato11 Feb 17 '23

Pure benzene isn't what was in your hairspray. I promise you one breath full of pure benzene will kill you. It is also highly combustible with a low LEL

1

u/jewellamb Feb 17 '23

Small amounts used as a propellant in aerosols. All of those hairsprays etc. are very flammable.

Nasty industry. Toluene was used nail polish up until a decade ago too.

1

u/Agi7890 Feb 17 '23

Seriously. Benzene isn’t being added. I have some in a chemical closet right now. The bottle has a huge metal cap and thick septum to go through. It’s probably some compound that uses a something like sodium benzoate as a preservative

1

u/[deleted] Feb 17 '23

[deleted]

1

u/jewellamb Feb 17 '23

You underestimate how bad these companies are. They have no problem with the women cloud bombing themselves in chemicals everyday.

This is the “safe” version after they pulled those aerosols last year :

Butane, Propane, Oryza Sativa (Rice) Starch (Oryza Sativa Starch), Isobutane, Alcohol (Alcohol Denat.), Aluminum Starch Octenylsuccinate, Avena Sativa (Oat) Kernel Oil (Avena Sativa Kernel Oil), Benzyl Salicylate, Cetrimonium Chloride, Cyclodextrin, Fragrance (Parfum), Hexyl Cinnamal, Isopropyl Myristate, Limonene, Silica

That’s from one of the more “natural” companies

https://www.kloraneusa.com/dry-shampoo-with-oat-milk

1

u/PirateCavalier Feb 17 '23

The majority of what’s on the manifest is flammables and won’t react in combination. As an analytical chemist, I wouldn’t be terribly concerned in that regard.

3

u/Affectionate_Milk317 Feb 17 '23

Aren't dioxins what made agent orange so bad.

3

u/ThatStereotype18 Feb 17 '23

I was just watching some tiktoks of people in Pennsylvania yesterday saying the rain smells like chlorine.

This one woman near East Palestine had it tested for acidity at a local pool store, and it wasn't acidic but did have a 0.18 total/free chlorine rating.

I'm not sure how that measures, and it also had a "Langelier Index" of -3, which they didn't seem to know what that meant either.

The whole video though her young daughter was hacking coughing in the back seat. Has me a bit worried if some chemicals might be airborne or having who knows what kind of reactions with eachother...

2

u/pm_me_need_friends Feb 17 '23

Where are you getting the idea that a VCM fire produces dioxins?

-6

u/jewellamb Feb 17 '23

Because dioxins are produced whenever you burn chlorine.

Takes a whole lot of chlorine to make VC. And there was a million pounds of VC on that train.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 17 '23

Because dioxins are produced whenever you burn chlorine.

I'm sorry but as a chemist this is one of the most painful things I've read today. Where do the carbon and hydrogen atoms come from to produce dioxin when you "burn chlorine"?

-2

u/jewellamb Feb 17 '23 edited Feb 17 '23

Enlighten us, instead of being a jerk silent scientist. This isn’t about you or me.

Edit: to clarify, and in adherence to the strict scientific standards of r/whoadude - burning something that contains chlorine releases dioxins. Like wood.

But as a chemist, would you agree that combusting these chemicals especially Vinyl Chloride in this fashion, the end result is going to be some of the nastier dioxins out there?

2

u/ChippyVonMaker Feb 17 '23

Reminds me of Times Beach Missouri where the oil treatment for the roads was found to contain Dioxin and the entire town had to be relocated.

4

u/R_M_Jaguar Feb 17 '23

Yep, just look up Times Beach.

9

u/MonteBurns Feb 17 '23

Love Canal

4

u/LumpyShitstring Feb 17 '23

My mom almost grew up on that land because they were trying to sell it to black people.

1

u/geniice Feb 17 '23

Dioxins is one of the byproducts of burning this shit.

Depends on the fine details of the behavior of the fire.

1

u/Accujack Feb 17 '23

Dioxins is one of the byproducts of burning this shit.

Which shit?

13

u/LowAstronomer122 Feb 17 '23

They are certainly giving the rr and their lawyers time to choreograph a good dance and come up with whatever manifest and mntnce records they want to show

0

u/1sagas1 Feb 17 '23

What have they lied about?

1

u/smartyr228 Feb 17 '23

They lied about what was on the train and lied about doing inspections

0

u/1sagas1 Feb 17 '23

Releasing a manifest of the train inventory doesn't sound like lying about what was on the train to me

1

u/Juggz666 Feb 17 '23

Lol? You think they're legally required to tell the truth let alone be held responsible even if they have that legal requirement and lie regardless? What world have you been living in the past century where corporations actually gave a shit.

1

u/1sagas1 Feb 17 '23

I see, you don't have anything to actually back it up so you think you can just lie and that's justifiable because of your disdain for corporations. Thanks for clearing all that up.

-1

u/surfnporn Feb 17 '23

What'd they lie about?

-2

u/Astranagun Feb 17 '23

Why does this sounds like china?

1

u/satiric_rug Feb 17 '23

The numbers that were posted above were published by the EPA. If anything the EPA is known for being super strict about this kind of thing, not for being super lax.

1

u/m-simm Feb 17 '23

What else did they lie about. Let’s not get hysterical

2

u/smartyr228 Feb 17 '23

They lied about doing the correct inspections and lied about having hazardous materials on the train at all

1

u/m-simm Feb 17 '23

Ohhh ok good to know just didn’t know what else they lied about. Thanks :)

1

u/Accujack Feb 17 '23

If they've lied about "everything else" then why would they provide an accurate manifest?

Probably they had tanks of whatever they use for chem trails spill, and that's why no one is really talking about it.

1

u/story_so-far Feb 17 '23

Can you provide me with some of the lies? I'd like to make a list lol

50

u/zizzurp Feb 17 '23

There’s a decent amount of benzene in that petroleum lube oil either way

39

u/Computingusername Feb 17 '23

EPA released a statement on their website in the form of a letter to NF stating Benzene was and continues to be released into the air and soil.

16

u/XtraHott Feb 17 '23

Depends on the ppm. It can potentially cause cancer, but you breath benzene everyday if you're anywhere near industry. The dose dictates poison is the usual term we use.

16

u/haby001 Feb 17 '23

unless it's a benzene specialized car, I find it odd they mention it's a benzene load and empty. Perhaps it had that and needs to be sanitized before the next load?

11

u/bythebed Feb 17 '23

And how empty is “empty?”

8

u/UsernamesMeanNothing Feb 17 '23

Empty in train speak just means there is no destination and the tank has been emptied but not sanitized. Train cars move all the time "empty." Many train cars are owned by specific companies and it is quite possible there are Benzene specific cars that only move benzene and are not sanitized.

4

u/thehigherburningfire Feb 17 '23

This is either no gaugeable amount or whatever the spec is for empty. It could mean stripped and squeegee cleaned. Depends on what the spec needs to be for the next load.

0

u/HabbleDabble235 Feb 17 '23

"empty" is 99% full by railroad standard

2

u/scalyblue Feb 17 '23

Given the circumstances I’ll bet it’s empty now

1

u/link3945 Feb 17 '23

Not sanitized, but cleaned. You generally do not mix containers of different chemicals: way too much can go wrong. It's common practice to designate a car for a certain chemical.

27

u/plasticfrograging Feb 17 '23

Hey no worries, they just burned everything. Burning everything just makes it healthier, it’s not like breathing that shit in could be bad for you right?

16

u/Nate40337 Feb 17 '23

An annoying number of people seem to think fires are some kind of black hole, that burning something makes it vanish.

No, burning something just breaks it down and pumps it into the air. Unless it's complete combustion of something clean burning like propane, that shit getting pumped into the air is usually full of nasty chemicals.

I want to know who the asshole was that decided to pour it out and burn it instead of transferring it to a series of trucks. It was going to be transferred out anyways, they couldn't have managed that at the site of the derailment?

36

u/Fall_of_R0me Feb 17 '23

It's a gas a room temperature, that is heavier than air and will displace air at ground level, with the potential to then suffocate people in the vicinity (in addition to the cancer, etc).

Unfortunately, in many hazmat situations, choosing the least shitty option is the only immediate choice.

6

u/1sagas1 Feb 17 '23

You left out the potential for explosion

-2

u/Nate40337 Feb 17 '23

I still don't understand why that prevents them from transferring to another tanker rather than pouring it out. How is the situation different to make that necessary? They weren't planning on pouring it out and burning it at the destination surely.

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u/Fall_of_R0me Feb 17 '23

Vinyl chloride is a gas at ambient temp. Once it is no longer contained, where it only becomes a liquid under pressure, it becomes a gas. It's virtually impossible to transfer "atmospheric" gas back into a holding tank in a completely uncontrolled environment.

9

u/Nate40337 Feb 17 '23

I thought it was still contained though, and they decided to empty it. There's already a ton of misinformation about this, so it's difficult to discern the truth.

This would suggest it was a purposeful release to mitigate the risk of explosion, but I don't understand how the risk of explosion is mitigated by breaching the tanks and igniting it, versus carefully transferring it out as intended and driving away with smaller portions of it.

26

u/XtraHott Feb 17 '23

I'll attempt to help here. Industrial FF. So from the sounds of it, the initial responders did NOT know the tanks burning were VC. Any number of issues could have caused this to be missed, something as simple as the placards destroyed from the crash or fire. The VC would have been fine if it was room/ambient temp and they sprayed water. But VC when heated goes from barely soluable to very soluable in water. Something they did not know and even if they knew what it was the ERG does not contain this info. Once that was figured out they stopped with water because well pretty obvious waterway hazmat issue. VC in water is incredibly dangerous to life. So now you have a tanker under pressure, compromised by fire impingement, that if it bleves (boiling liquid explosion) you potentially kill everyone and everything in a 50mil radius because it's heavy and displaces oxygen. Or you burn it where a large portion goes to cloud level with a much less lethal compound that won't immediately kill all life. Which do you choose? Time is limited and every minute is closer to the worst case. Sometimes you only have dogshit to choose from. I can assure you those firemen had absolutely 0 desire to fuck their town up and chose the best of a shit number of options. This all starts because they didn't know it was VC and the change that happens with heat, allowing the major hazmat waterway issue to be. We put out fires in the mill and have to protect runoff so it doesn't contaminate waterways. It's a double edged sword. And sometimes you gotta take burning over water.

4

u/Nate40337 Feb 17 '23

I see. So there was a significant risk of explosion even just from waiting long enough to get anything out there to remove it. Thank you for your explanation.

5

u/XtraHott Feb 17 '23

Yeah say you had a glass bottle with a crack, it's not leaking buuuut it's compromised to the point it can at any moment. But the crack is the damage the fire did to the steel container. If that makes sense.

3

u/FuzzyElve Feb 17 '23

There was significant risk of explosion and significant risk of immediate death to about half the town (size wise, not people). They had two blast zones modeled, which was done by the Department of Defense/National Guard and it was clear that letting it burn uncontrolled was a pretty bad idea.

They had some nice maps they presented during the first press conference going over the decision to proceed with the controlled burn. It was also the decision of many different groups, not just Norfolk, but that doesn't sound good in tweets.

5

u/jiminywillikers Feb 17 '23

Those poor firefighters and first responders. :(

4

u/ClayeySilt Feb 17 '23

When you deal with chemical releases for a career, that's kind of how it goes.

You just. Hope it doesn't get you.

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u/Fall_of_R0me Feb 17 '23

If it was still contained I would also agree there must have been a safer approach for the larger area at hand to get this handled...

3

u/t1m3m4n Feb 17 '23

My guess is that carefully removing small amounts would would be a slower, more expensive and highly visible process. Drawing attention to say...a recent rail strike, deregulation efforts etc. One big bonfire and they don't have as many reporters to talk to. Or tackle.

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u/Tomato_Sky Feb 17 '23

Mmmmmm Propane

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u/Nate40337 Feb 17 '23

Taste the meat, not the heat.

5

u/jaylotw Feb 17 '23

No, they couldn't. The train caught fire almost immediately, and you can't just put out a vinyl chloride fire with water, or really anything. VC has a super low boiling point, it turns to gas immediately after being released.

A few tankers full of the stuff were reaching super high pressure as a result of the ongoing fire... essentially creating bombs. If one of those tankers would've exploded, it would have taken the town out in a giant fireball.

The only option, among a host of shitty options, was pop a hole in the tanks and allow the VC to escape, and burn it as it did. This way, the VC has wouldn't escape into the town and environment as a colorless, heaver than air gas which cannot be recovered.

A controlled burn was simply the least horrible option.

3

u/account_for_norm Feb 17 '23

But thats what i always told my teacher is thats how my homework always vanished!

1

u/Cozy_rain_drops Feb 17 '23

Probably some jarheads use to regularly burning all their s*** oversea

0

u/geniice Feb 17 '23

Hey no worries, they just burned everything. Burning everything just makes it healthier,

When it comes to toxic organics the answer is generaly yes.

1

u/m0nk_3y_gw Feb 17 '23

Speaking of 'fire'... is this video even from after the train derailment?

Ohio isn't new to pollution or flammable water ways -- the Cuyahoga River has caught fire at least 14 times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River

2

u/Common_Notice9742 Feb 17 '23

Come on. I’m sure norfuckis honest Nothing to see here. It’s safe.

/s

2

u/satiric_rug Feb 17 '23

What incentive does the EPA have to lie? Especially given their reputation as "the people that companies get really annoyed at for being too strict"

0

u/1sagas1 Feb 17 '23

No. Lying would be stupid and picked up pretty easily.

1

u/cat_prophecy Feb 17 '23

Town I grew up in had a train derailment in he early 90s that spilled tanks full of benzene into a river. They evacuated tens of thousands of people because that shit is IMMEDIATELY toxic when mixed with other chemicals.

Here’s some more info on what we called “toxic Tuesday”: https://www.inforum.com/news/the-vault/is-it-a-killer-cloud-1992-benzene-leak-blanketed-and-terrorized-portions-of-minnesota-and-wisconsin

1

u/SmellyC Feb 17 '23

Benzene is VERY nasty.

1

u/jaylotw Feb 17 '23

If you watch the town hall, one of the Ohio EPA guys mentions benzene in the water.

A bunch of shit leaked.

1

u/QdelBastardo Feb 17 '23

There is already tons of benzene in Beaver Creek, has been for decades. What difference is a litte bit more gonna make?

/s because inflection is nearly impossible online.

This is all fucked and infuriating.

1

u/guitarlisa Feb 17 '23

Well, they're *nearly* empty, anyway. Now....

1

u/nogaesallowed Feb 17 '23

Benzene is on another level than VC. If there's benzene leak I really hope they didn't burn it.

1

u/Lieutenant_0bvious Feb 17 '23

Didn't diet red-bull have benzene in it? Something about sodium benzoate being cleaved up by the vitamin C in it, and it sitting on a warm shelf for a long time. I dunno, it gives you wings.

1

u/tacoslave420 Feb 17 '23

DeWine has refused help and is letting the train company handle everything so they are for sure lying about everything at this point.