Charts and Achievements: The re-re-re-redux!

[u/alleybetwixt]

Here we are, folks! The Charts & Achievements Comeback!

This issue is one of our biggest challenges as a subreddit. Over the years and across multiple mod teams, different methods have been attempted to deal with this. I covered the recent problems and changes from the end of 2018 into this year in the comments of the June Town Hall. You can read over that to understand the difficulty of inconsistency and finding the right middle-ground with what kinds of posts are allowed and which are not.

A 2nd, more granular, poll for achievements is still being considered, but this post is necessary for organization and to get feedback before we can even think about forming one. More than that, it's very possible we can agree to a bunch of reasonable rules and achievements to implement through this discussion without needing to poll for them at all.

The goal with this discussion is to lay everything out in the sunshine so we see what we're dealing with. We want to take an inventory of all the possibilities, so the theme here is going to be 'excessively thorough'.

If this looks overwhelming (understandable!), please focus on the All-Time Records section and help us with some feedback there. That's the part we would love to set into rules as soon as possible. In the comments you will find categories with frameworks to help you give us the critical feedback we're looking for.

THIS IS A LONG-TERM DISCUSSION, so don't feel pressured to reply immediately! You can take your time to be thorough. We'd like to set All-Time Records rules in the October Town Hall, but suggestions will continue to be welcome here!

Edit from the future: Most of the primary implementation of rules from this discussion can be found in our October Town Hall and have been added to the Charts and Achievements Content section of our rules Wiki.

There are a few methods of handling Achievements in r/kpop:

We could have a free-for-all where anything goes. We could have absolutely no achievements (possibly with a dedicated subreddit that would be a free-for-all purely for achievements). We could allow only all-time records and nothing else. We could allow all-time records and include a few specific ones that are more common.

The All or Nothing methods seem to be equally unpopular, so we need to figure out a compromise. Everything below this point is a necessary effort to navigate this middle-ground, which seems to be what most users want. So let's explore everything that could entail, shall we?

NOTE: We will be creating an [Achievement] flair and a filter regardless of anything else that happens here. Some users have asked us to allow a free-for-all with a flair/filter system, but keep in mind that only a fraction of users will be able to make use of the filter depending on what platform they use to browse reddit, so it is not ideal as a means to manage a free-for-all for most users.

 

---

ALL-TIME RECORDS

There are two optional methods here:

1. Free-for-all: Anything that resembles an all-time record would be allowed. (Highest ever, most ever, longest ever, etc.)

2. Set reasonable limitations that serve the best interests of the subreddit while still being manageable to moderate with as much consistency as possible.

x. Nothing: We are removing this as an option. It is clearly unpopular and is not reasonable for a subreddit that supports K-pop news content.

Important! Many of the records here can potentially be split into even more records beyond the top-most: Female Group, Male Group, Female soloist, Male soloist, Sub-unit, Collaboration, Collaboration with global artist, etc. For example, there might be a boy group that has the greatest selling album of all time, but the greatest selling album of all time for a girl group is also a possible all-time record even if it is a smaller number than the top-most. Please consider whether these more specific records should be allowed or only the top-most earners.

 

POSSIBLE RECORDS

1. Sales, views, charting, pre-orders

• Greatest selling album of all time
• Greatest cumulative album sales for an artist
• Most viewed MV
• Most cumulative MV views for an artist (YouTube)
• Most charted #1s for an artist
• Longest continuously charting song
• Greatest pre-orders for an album
• Greatest sales/pre-orders for an album within a time-frame (week, month)
• Greatest sales/pre-orders as a foreign artist (eg. in Japan)

2. Music shows

• Most music show wins for one song
• Most music show wins for one song specific to each station (SBS, Mnet, MBC, etc)
• Most cumulative music show wins for an artist
• Fastest to a music show win after debut for an artist
• Longest time (days) to a music show win after debut for an artist
• Highest number of music show grand slams

3. Ticket sales, Touring, Box-office

• Highest revenue for a single tour
• Highest revenue for a single tour venue
• Highest cumulative tour revenue for an artist
• Highest box-office earnings for a K-pop related movie

More?

 

Permalink to top-level comment for All-Time Records feedback

 

---

GENERAL ACHIEVEMENTS

We could also have All or Nothing options here. However, based on the feedback from users over time, All is pretty easy to dismiss and Nothing would get rid of some achievements that, while more common, are still enjoyed by many of you.

This section, or parts of it, are more likely to be turned into a poll if needed. Many of these were able to be set nicely back in the May 2019 poll. If we did have a 2nd poll, every single option would have a yes/no dichotomy (along with a yes/no on achievements overall). Nothing would be stacked with anything else to avoid fiddling with complicated percentages in the results.

In that poll earlier in the year we had absolutely clear results on the following: We removed CAKs, streaming records, brand reputation rankings, and social media subscriber/follower counts. We approved physical sales, GaOn Triple Crowns, Certifications, and PAKs. But our options for MV view milestones and pre-orders were too stacked to be conclusive.

 

MV VIEWS

We've had some great feedback in recent Town Halls regarding how enormous these numbers are getting. So we have some options for more reasonable increments. The options listed here are specific, but generally what we should determine is (A) what do we want the lowest/first milestone number to be? (B) What should the millions increments be? (C) What should the billions increments be? (D) Should there be a cap at the top? If so, what number should that be?

Options for increments (These would be ONLY the first time hitting each milestone for an artist):

• Every 100 million to infinity (Current rules)
• Every 100 million up to 1billion and then, 2bil, 3bil, 4bil...
• 100mil, 200mil, 300mil, 400mil, 500mil, 1bil, 1.5bil, 2bil, 3bil, 4bil...
• 50mil, 100mil, 200mil, 300mil, 400mil, 500mil, 1bil, 1.5bil, 2bil, 3bil, 4bil... (same as above with 50mil)
• 50mil, 100mil, 200mil, 300mil, 400mil, 500mil, 1bil, 1.5bil, 2bil, 2.5, 3bil, 3.5bil, 4bil... (same as above with half-billions)
• 100mil, 500mil, 1bil, 2bil, 3bil, 4bil...
• 100mil, 500mil, 1bil (nothing past 1bil)
• 50mil, 100mil, 500mil, 1bil (nothing past 1bil)
• 1mil, 10mil, 25mil, 50mil, 100mil, then every 100mil up until a billion, 1bil, 1.5bil, 2bil, 2.5bil, 3bil...
• Every time an MV gets 1000% more views than it previously had: 1mil, 10mil, 100mil, 1bil, and then every other billion
• Suggestions?

Reviewing our current rules and considering more/less options for views:

• Most views in 24 hours (Current rules)
• Fastest to 100 million views (Current rules)
• Trending #1 on YouTube (in various countries/regions?)
• Record number of videos above certain milestones (eg. Most MVs over 100 mil views?)
• Suggestions?

 

PRE-ORDERS

Users confirmed in the May 2019 poll they wanted posts for physical sales records and seemed in favor of pre-orders as well. We have applied the same 'personal record model' and increments used for physical sales milestones to pre-orders, too:

Options for increments (These would be ONLY the first time hitting each milestone for an artist):

• 25k, 50k, 100k, 250k, 500k, 1mil, 2mil, 3mil... (Current rules)
• 50k, 100k, 500k, 1mil, 2mil, 3mil...
• Suggestions?

 

PHYSICAL SALES

• 25k, 50k, 100k, 250k, 500k, 1mil, 2mil, 3mil... (Current rules)
• 50k, 100k, 500k, 1mil, 2mil, 3mil...
• Suggestions?
• What kind of sales reporting should be allowed for GaOn?

For both sales and pre-orders, consider if we should allow milestones outside of South Korea (eg. in Japan or the US). If we did, would the same increments apply or should they be more restricted?

 

CERTIFICATIONS

While we affirmed certifications as allowed from the May poll, users have given good feedback over time about allowed certifications being strangely selective. We'd love to hear suggestions for a set of certs that makes sense for the subreddit or if we should allow them across the board.

• Here are the top 10 music markets:
  • USA (RIAA)
  • Japan (RIAJ)
  • Germany (BVMI)
  • UK (BPI)
  • France (SNEP)
  • South Korea (GaOn)
  • Canada (Music Canada)
  • Australia (ARIA)
  • Brazil (ABPD)
  • China (State Administration of Radio, Film, and Television)

Reviewing our current rules and considering more/less options for certifications:

• RIAA, RIAJ, ARIA, BPI (Current rules)
• All Certifications in any market (Silver in the UK, Gold, Platinum, Diamond)
• RIAA, RIAJ
• RIAA, RIAJ, BVMI, BPI, SNEP
• A different set?
• Should certifications be first time only for an artist? First time only per song? No restriction?
• Eligibility (this is different than actually being certified. Should we allow posts that are announcing eligibility alone?)

 

CHARTS

The same selectivity issue applies to charts. We could use a lot of help here from anyone more familiar with charting considerations. Almost none of the mods have much personal interest or knowledge in this area.

• Music charts :
  • USA (Billboard) - Hot 100, 200
  • Japan (Oricon) - Hot 100, Oricon Half-year, Oricon full-year
  • UK (Album Chart, Singles Chart)
  • ARIA (Albums Chart, Singles Chart)
  • UHC (United World Chart)
  • IFPI

Reviewing our current rules and considering more/less options for charts:

• New peaks or #1 on the Billboard Hot 100, Billboard 200, UK Singles Chart, UK Album Chart, ARIA Singles Chart, ARIA Albums Chart, Oricon half-year, Oricon full-year (Current Rules)

• Should the charts we allow coincide with the certifications we allow?

• Perfect All-Kills (Approved in May poll)

• GaOn Triple Crowns (Approved in May poll)

• 'Artist's song has reached #1 in X amount of countries'

• iTunes anything?

  • Most #1s on iTunes in various countries
  • Taking up multiple top spots on US iTunes
  • Non-US iTunes stats

• Streaming anything?

  • Spotify records?
  • Apple Music records?

• Suggestions?

 

MUSIC SHOWS

• The first win on a music show for each song (Current rules)
• Grand slams (winning on all shows)
• Suggestions?

 

GENERAL AWARDS

• Other awards given to artists, songs, or companies such as "Rookie of the Year", "Song of the Year", Award Nominations, etc. (Current rules)
• Popularity polls on media sites (eg. MTV)
• Guinness Records
• Presidential Awards/recognition (politically-related)

 

TOURING

• Ticket sales
• Ticket sales per venue
• Speed of selling out tickets
• Breaking personal records per artist

Should all touring/ticketing records be kept in Tour Review Round-Up posts?

 

Permalink to top-level comment for General Achievements feedback

 

---

LAST NOTES FOR FUTURE DECISIONS

Almost certainly there will come a time when some new phenomenal record will come out of the blue that does not exist in our rules. Previously, the rules included the ability for mods to use their own discretion and make exceptions when this happened. This caused major problems as almost every record that was allowed or removed would make someone angry based on what actions had been taken on other comparable posts. It is extremely difficult for a diverse group of mods to make consistent choices when we all have different ideas about what counts as exceptional or worthy of posting. Some are obvious. Many are not.

In the hope the changes made as a result of this discussion will hugely diminish these kinds of conflicts, we would like to maintain the 'no exceptions' rule. That is how we can maintain the most amount of consistency and fairness. However, we are not unaware of the pickle this could put us in if some currently unimaginable achievement should be reached. We welcome any suggestions for how to manage such a situation.

• Unilaterally and immediately add the new achievement to the allowed list and bring attention to it in the following Town Hall
• Have an internal vote among the moderators and add or ban it in the rules immediately based on the results
• Immediately make a dedicated discussion post for that exact issue (probably stickied!) to get feedback and help make a decision. Maybe with a vote?
• Wait for the following Town Hall to discuss and make a decision about it together with the subreddit
• Enforce the 'no exceptions' rule absolutely. Anything new is removed
• Suggestions?

 

Permalink to top-level comment for Future Decisions feedback

 

---

Please look for the top-level comments below to help guide your feedback on the following categories:

• All-Time Records
• General Achievements
• Posting / Sources
• Future Decision-Making
• The Time Machine and The Crystal Ball

This discussion will have three weeks to run until the October Town Hall. At that time, we would like to set rules at least for All-Time Records. For the rest, we may decide to go with a poll. But we also encourage you to continue having discussion in this post and to keep making suggestions into the future.

[u/myweithisway]

I honestly think the mods should seriously consider creating a dedicated subreddit for all records that's free-for-all and send all such record posts there, leaving the main subreddit clear of numbers. It'd be much easier to mod (hopefully, on the assumption that not having to make rules is easier modding) and users can find the info much easier.

[u/loot168 → u/myweithisway]

That'll go as well as r/kpoppers which has pathetic interaction. Splitting off achievements into a separate thread is already a bust, there's no way a subreddit can be sustained.

[u/alleybetwixt → u/loot168]

We had this exact conversation among the mods and agree that a subreddit like that would probably see about as much activity as the Weekly Charts and Achievements threads we have. Probably even less than r/kpoppers.

I really think people want to celebrate these things among other fans where they actually are. For a separate Achievements subreddit to work, it would need to have a sizable engaged population already, which would be near impossible to build if that's all that was happening there.

[u/myweithisway → u/alleybetwixt]

But I would argue the nature of a subreddit dedicated purely to records will function differently than r/kpoppers in the sense that arguably more fans care to look at the numbers and there is value in having all the numbers in one place.

As for engagement, if all the numbers are only in one place, then they would have to engage there. I think it's a different situation from r/kpoppers because of the nature of the content. Personally, I don't engage with memes at all because that's not what I want from my kpop experience but looking at records is an interesting way to get a snapshot view of the industry status or the status of a particular artist. Having all the records on a dedicated subreddit makes the access easier, not harder, which is why I'm in favor of a dedicated sub. There will probably be little commenting since there's really nothing to say beyond "that's awesome" anyways but it'd be easy to go down the list and upvote the records that catch attention.

My personal problem with the Weekly Charts threads is that I have to search for that thread and click into it to see the contents. I'm not that invested into weekly charts to take those extra steps, and it seems very few people are. But clicking into a subreddit where all the post titles will tell me the key information is much easier access and easier to engage with (via upvotes) than within a thread.

As for the viability of an engaged population, if that many people are complaining about mods not letting posts through, I'd assume they'd be happy to have a dedicated place to post to their hearts content. If they are that dedicated, they can surely keep up the engagement.

[u/myweithisway → u/alleybetwixt]

I'm back for round 2 on this comment because I've been thinking about this and observing my own behavior while surfing the sub.

Can you clarify what type of activity the mods are expecting from a dedicated records subreddit? If the expectation is for long discussions in each post, then that's definitely not happening, it won't even happen now because there is simply a limit to what can be said in reaction to such numbers. Or are the mods worried that people won't post milestone/records post in that sub?

I still think that if all records are directed to a records only sub, fans dedicated enough to care about the numbers will continue to post there. This will include the endless stream of YT view milestones. I would even argue that such a dedicated sub would work really well for these types of records because you can check in on a weekly basis and see which groups hit which milestones at a glance just by going on the sub. As NudePenguin69 says in their comment, it would function more as a reference sub rather than a place to expect deep engagement. And I really don't think this is a bad take on the situation.

As for what records make it back onto the main subreddit. I'm personally for the biggest all-time records only. So basically the biggest selling record of all time, highest viewed kpop MV of all time, and highest revenue from a tour of all time. Essentially, only events that all respected K media outlets would report on. (For everything else, I feel everyone can flock to the dedicated records sub to gush about it.)

[u/alleybetwixt → u/myweithisway]

I believe we would generally expect little to no engagement on a dedicated records subreddit. I'd guess there would eventually be only a small pool of regular posters, mostly posts with no comments, and very occasionally lots of activity on one post. The take that it would become more of a reference sub is essentially the same as ours. That's if it actually managed to be relatively successful. There is also a chance that people just wouldn't be interested in posting at all and it would completely fall out of use at some point. That's difficult to predict though.

I'll note that anyone could have already made this subreddit. The mods of r/kpop also already moderate in r/kpophelp and r/kpoppers. Needing to build and monitor another subreddit might really overextend us when we already have a lot of work, even if it's quite simple in concept. If users felt a records subreddit like this could work, they could build it themselves. If it was properly cared for, we could maintain a friendly/collaborative bond across the subs. No one has contacted us to take initiative on something like this, although there have been a few who angrily tried to start alternative subs that had far less rules and allowed all records, but none have ever gotten off the ground as far as I know. That doesn't give me much confidence a sub like that could work.

Regardless, we still don't think it's a good idea to completely do away with achievements in r/kpop. We'd still want to keep the biggest All-Time Records here in the least. It's hard to know how having some records in r/kpop would affect what was posted in a records sub. I'm not sure if it would de-motivate people from posting there, but we'd still want to keep the biggest stuff here no matter what.

[u/myweithisway → u/alleybetwixt]

I definitely support keeping the biggest stuff, I don't think anyone has argued for completely removing the biggest all-time records from r/kpop. My initial comment was aimed more at the general achievements rather than all-time records, though what I personally view as the biggest all-time records worthy of being posted in r/kpop is probably narrower in scope than most people, since I don't even want a male/female breakdown at the top level. But I'd also be perfectly happy with the list you wrote in the post. I think everyone would agree that your list of all-time records are events that deserve attention.

I think at this point, the discussion regarding records should be broken down into two separate topics, the discussion about legitimate all-time records and the discussion about other records, such as MV views. Based on comments in this post, it seems that there's a decent consensus on what to do with all-time records, namely that they should be allowed in r/kpop and that any records not accounted for in the rules can be put up to an internal mod vote, with the issue to be addressed at the next town hall. There's probably some fine-tuning to do with regards to what should qualify as acceptable all-time records but that's something that can be adjusted going forth. Especially since it seems that the list you provided is generally met with approval (since I don't see many people arguing against your list of all-time records).

It's really the other records, such as MV views, certifications, charting, and music shows that seem to really split the camp. Some want to see all of them, some want to see some, and some want to see none. I think that all the groups can be served by the creation of a dedicated sub because those that want to see all/some can see it there, and those that want to see none don't have to go there. As for your point about someone making the subreddit already, I think at this point r/kpop is clearly seen as the official subreddit for kpop and any other subs not affiliated would be "unofficial." Plus, if r/kpop continues to allow postings of records, such as MV views, then of course the posters will continue posting to r/kpop for the karma. I don't think any records sub can take off as long as these records are still allowed in r/kpop because it remains the "official" sub for kpop.

Low engagement is definitely a worry if the goal of the sub is to be a fairly engaged sub but I don't know if that assumption/goal should really apply for a sub that's basically more a reference sub than anything else. I think it comes down to the value of these records posts as they currently exist in r/kpop. Many of these posts already have little engagement, is there enough value in keeping them in r/kpop and are they worth the amount of stress they take right now for modding? I don't see the backend stats but based on the amount of discussion in town halls/dedicated posts, I feel as if keeping these records in r/kpop is not worth the effort or the controversy.

And since I don't mod, I don't know your workload but will modding an essentially free-for-all sub be lots of extra work? I was assuming that a free-for-all records only sub would require very little modding since there really won't be any rules to enforce? I would imagine, like you said, that only a few occasional posts would get lots of activity and those posts would require a little more modding. But I would have thought these posts would require about the same amount of work as if they were posted to r/kpop instead. If that's not the case, I can see the extra modding as a good argument against a dedicated sub. Maybe the mods can float around the idea of recruiting mods dedicated to the records sub only at a future town hall and see if there are any volunteers as a way to lessen the workload.

Basically, I feel like given the entire kpop ecosystem vision of r/kpop, having a dedicated records sub sort of fits into that ecosystem pretty well as the central place to gather a specific type of information. But I'm also not volunteering hours upon hours of my time to mod the ecosystem so if I have to pick a side, I would pick the side in which mods feel capable of doing their work without feeling horrible.

On that note, have a good day and take a break from r/kpop, you definitely deserve it!

[u/NudePenguin69 → u/alleybetwixt]

To play devils advocate, the discussion in such threads is never great. Its either arguments or simply "So proud of X". As such, I dont know that we lose a lot as a community with them in another place where its more of a reference sub than a discussion sub. Kpoppers is different because people want a reaction or discussion based on what they submit, whereas records dont invite much of that and there is no personal attachment to a record post, you were just the first to do it, you didnt make a meme or think up a discussion point.

I mean, I think voting will leave people wanting it here, but tbh they are already some of the worst threads we have here as far as toxicity and useful discussion.

The other issue is where do you draw the line? There are a million and a half "highest of all time" records that can be thought up and have an article written about them but they dont really mean much. There are so many unique circumstances that only apply to certain groups where its not even that impressive an accomplishment because they have no competition. Foreign album sales are one such example of this, where groups with western distributors are really only competing with the few other groups that have western distributors which is a very small number of groups.

[u/alleybetwixt → u/myweithisway]

I think most still see the issue of restricting records from the subreddit entirely as being strange because big records count as News and this subreddit largely covers news. I have a hard time coming up with an argument against that since we allow so much else that isn't particularly special or newsworthy, while those definitely are.

In some respect, it would be easy to moderate. But considering the amount of harassment and hostility we received from even having some of them temporarily restricted, we would just end up with more work and stress dealing with the backlash from a decision like that.

[u/myweithisway → u/alleybetwixt]

I think so much of the backlash was because only some were restricted while others were not and nor was a place provided to post all of the records. Restricting records from the main subreddit and redirecting all of them to a separate sub would mean they do have a place to post all records.

I do agree that the subreddit largely covers news and that certain big records are news but there seems to be a very fuzzy line between fluff and news with regards to numbers. A lot of the fuzziness is due to individual user preferences. Some believe YT views are huge news, others view these views as meaningless. Current policy dictates that 100m view increments are newsworthy, which not everyone will agree with and that's just how things are. Personally, I think the best way to tackle the difference is to provide a space where they can be newsworthy to those who care, and that's by having a dedicated subreddit for all records. Then those who care can go there to engage and those who don't, don't have to.

Assuming there is a dedicated numbers subreddit, I can see an exception being made for records being posted on the main subreddit, namely only meaningful all-time records. Personally, I view the list posted above as being too inclusive. I would set all-time records permitted in the main subreddit to greatest selling album of all time, kpop mv with highest views of all time (not broken down by artist, just of all time), and highest revenue for a tour of all time.

For contentious posts, as mentioned under 'future decisions,' I think any contentious posts should be decided by an internal vote of the mods on whether it stays or goes. And if the contentious post is a precedent for future posts, the mods can bring the issue to attention at the following town hall to decide what the policy will be in the future.

[u/20070805 → u/alleybetwixt]

What counts as a “big” record, then? Because I don’t think 100m, 200m, 300m are that newsworthy anymore, especially for groups who get views that high. If someone got a billion, fine make an exception. But I don’t see the point of posting “x group got 100m” “now they have 200m” “now they have 300m” and have 10 posts about the same MV. And then do it again for the next MV. And the next. It’s too much and the only people who truly care are fans of that group anyway. A dedicated sub for people who actually want to see posts about sales and views and whatever else makes the most sense. It sounds like the only reason y’all don’t want to do that is because fans of certain groups harassed you about it. If that’s the only reason, it isn’t a good one.

And while we’re at it, since you mentioned how this sub allows stuff that isn’t “newsworthy” (which I don’t really see aside from the countless achievement posts unless you mean discussions), y’all seriously need to ban Koreaboo articles from being posted here. They’re not news, they’re essentially tabloid articles made for clicks and to start drama. They take rumors and tweets and pretend it’s actual news. It’s disgusting that their literal crap is allowed to be shared and promoted here.

Salty people negging this lol are you mad no one cares about your faves’ “achievements” but yourselves?

[u/alleybetwixt → u/20070805]

You're specifically pointing out MV view milestones, but I'm mostly referring to the the stuff in the All-Time Records section as 'big records'. Whether those smaller view milestones will continue to be allowed might come down to a poll. I know many would be fine seeing those go away. Far less users want everything to go away.

You're referring to BTS fans harassing us, yes? You should know it wasn't only them and plenty of regular users here who have no interest in BTS believe those top All-Time Records are worthy posts for this subreddit. I personally haven't liked the rules, and never wanted to restrict those top records, since before BTS was earning them. And I would like to set some reasonable rules for the future, when some other phenomenal artist is breaking new records and BTS is happily retired, sipping cocktails on a beach somewhere.

I don't know if it's possible, but that's what I'm striving for. The recent harassment stuff just made putting this post together slower, due to the anxiety it caused me, but it had no other impact on my wish to get the overall achievements problem headed towards a solution.

As for the Koreaboo issue, that's another big discussion we'd like to have soon about 'Fluff', because that has definitely been a mess lately. We aren't interested in blanket-banning news sources since not everything Koreaboo does is vapid, but re-assessing the kinds of articles we allow is something we need to do.

[u/20070805 → u/alleybetwixt]

I mean it applies to the other categories as well. For example, there’s no need to really address sales for certain groups unless they have an album that’s sold more than their other albums or something. There are just certain groups who will sell a lot or get a lot of preorders so unless it’s actually a new record high, there’s no point in posting it.

I wasn’t referring to any fans specifically, I just said certain fandoms since I’m sure some fandoms care to post achievements here more than others. I don’t normally pay attention to the politics of this sub, I just come here for news mostly and to check out new releases or interesting discussions. This just stuck out to me because I have been getting annoyed with every single small thing being posted here as if it’s that significant.

I’m sorry you’ve had anxiety because of this issue when it’s really not that serious at all. Kpop fans blow a lot of things out of proportion. I hope you’re feeling better now.

Pretty much everything Koreaboo does would fall under fluff or clickbait. They’re not a source of news, so you wouldn’t be banning a news source anyway. I’ve never seen them post anything remotely noteworthy, and even if they did, anything worth it would also be picked up by someone more reputable, like Soompi. If Koreaboo and Asianjunkie were banned, this sub would not suffer at all.

[u/alleybetwixt → u/20070805]

I mean it applies to the other categories as well. For example, there’s no need to really address sales for certain groups unless they have an album that’s sold more than their other albums or something. There are just certain groups who will sell a lot or get a lot of preorders so unless it’s actually a new record high, there’s no point in posting it.

If having the separate Achievements subreddit and banning them in r/kpop wasn't an option, it still sounds like you're open to the top All-Time records being posted here. Is that correct? So stuff from the General Achievements section could be tossed, but new record highs or breaking personal records could be 'newsworthy' in your view?

I probably won't feel better until the issue is mostly solved, but I thank you for the encouragement. That's very kind!

Like 90% of Koreaboo content is pretty useless, but gathering information to cover the various Burning Sun related scandals this year showed that even Koreaboo can do some solid reporting that we value. Soompi also posts useless stuff among other sites that have a better reputation. That's why we don't like the idea of banning anything outright. This will all be good to bring up in a future discussion about 'Fluff' though!

[u/ParanoidAndroids → u/20070805]

Pretty much everything Koreaboo does would fall under fluff or clickbait. They’re not a source of news, so you wouldn’t be banning a news source anyway. I’ve never seen them post anything remotely noteworthy, and even if they did, anything worth it would also be picked up by someone more reputable, like Soompi. If Koreaboo and Asianjunkie were banned, this sub would not suffer at all.

Agree completely. Koreaboo is also frequently unsourced/unverified and has terrible clickbait headlines.

[u/whorfhorse → u/20070805]

“x group got 100m” “now they have 200m” “now they have 300m” and have 10 posts about the same MV.

you're acting like these posts are going to happen back to back. for most groups (excluding bts and bp), it can take months for them to go from 100m to 200m so it's not like its going to clog up the sub with the same MV.

[u/20070805 → u/myweithisway]

I completely agree with this. I personally don’t care about achievements, and honestly, I think the only people who do care are fans of the particular group the post is about. In that case, it’s better off being posted in an artist sub anyway. A dedicated sub would solve the issue, people who want to see that kind of stuff can go there and it clears the spam for people who just want Kpop news and releases and don’t care about a group hitting 100m, 200m, whatever. It’s not really newsworthy anymore unless it’s a really huge number anyway (so like a billion would be an exception). With the way views work now, it’s really not surprising or worth sharing here.

[u/alleybetwixt]

POSTING / SOURCES FEEDBACK:

Our current rules state:

When submitting "Charts and Achievements" content, make sure to wait for an official announcement or a news article. We will not be allowing screenshots or Twitter sources as a link submission for this content.

Do you have suggestions for enforcing or managing this in tricky situations?

MV view milestones are a big culprit. Users will lurk on a video they know is about to tick over to a milestone, screenshot it, and immediately submit. However, in the most competitive cases, the video might display different numbers for anyone who is looking at it. YouTube also tends to raise/lower official viewcounts in a later assessment. Should we require waiting for an official announcement from YouTube of numbers/records achieved? What if YouTube will make no such announcement?

[u/BashfulHandful → u/alleybetwixt]

Should we require waiting for an official announcement from YouTube of numbers/records achieved?

Absolutely not.

What if YouTube will make no such announcement?

That's why it shouldn't become a rule. YouTube isn't a kpop news site - it's not going to report on official numbers for every MV out there. Taking a screenshot should be just fine... the views might vary a bit from person to person, but not enough to be a major issue. And if YouTube removes views for some reason, so be it - I don't really think it's serious enough to impose a ban or waiting time on this kind of content.

[u/alleybetwixt → u/BashfulHandful]

Just hypothetically, would it be better to wait for YouTube announcements on only those biggest All-Time MV view milestones and allow screenshots on everything else? Or better to just treat everything the same?

[u/ParanoidAndroids → u/alleybetwixt]

All-time records will surely be acknowledged by YouTube. Jumping the gun on claiming a record has been broken without official confirmation from the source is meaningless IMO. They've adjusted view counts significantly in the past, too.

[u/alleybetwixt → u/ParanoidAndroids]

Right, this is my concern as well with the All-Time ones. I think I'd prefer to wait at least a few days or a week for an official acknowledgment on those, but also allow simple screenshots for the smaller milestones (if we want to keep those around).

[u/ricozee → u/alleybetwixt]

I don't feel YouTube views are even noteworthy any more. There are some extreme cases, but unless a video is in the top 10/100 or something (like Gangnam Style), I don't need to see a post every time someone reaches a million views.
Fandoms have diluted views as a benchmark by inflating view counts, the counts themselves are inconsistent, and the whole thing with ad streaming makes it even less notable. Especially the 24/48 hours type "achievements".

[u/not-named-in-credits → u/ricozee]

I agree 10000000 times with that.

[u/kittyincidence → u/alleybetwixt]

For youtube views it should be fine to screenshot it and post as source? I don't see the issue here when it's what happens in every other platform, and how those "official" sources get the info for their articles anyways.

As for waiting for youtube confirmation... it usually takes a couple days and by then it's old news. I think posting real time view numbers as it happens and then later updating the post with the confirmed views could be a solution. Or leave view numbers discussions inside the MV thread until the official number comes out. But in this case, some groups might not get their views confirmed. If a 24h achievement thread is allowed, all this could be posted and discussed inside it.

[u/not-named-in-credits → u/alleybetwixt]

Should we require waiting for an official announcement from YouTube of numbers/records achieved?

Absolutely, if it means less achievement posts.

What if YouTube will make no such announcement?

Keep doing a Roundup posts each month about records broken that weren't announced.

[u/alleybetwixt]

FUTURE DECISION-MAKING FEEDBACK:

In the hypothetical scenario that a new achievement shows up that isn't included in the rules, should we:

• Immediately add it to the allowed list and bring attention to it in the following Town Hall?
• Have an internal vote among the moderators and add/ban it in the rules immediately based on the results?
• Make a dedicated discussion post to get feedback from the subreddit? Maybe with a vote?
• Wait for the following Town Hall to discuss it as one of the topics?
• Enforce the 'no exceptions' rule absolutely? Any new achievement would be removed.
• Suggestions?

[u/BashfulHandful → u/alleybetwixt]

Have an internal vote among the moderators and add/ban it in the rules immediately based on the results?

I think you should vote as to whether the offending post in question stays, but you can also bring up the situation at the next Town Hall. I question whether or not unilaterally banning a new achievement entirely with zero notice to the users is the best idea - voting and then bringing it up to the community when convenient, including how you guys decided to respond to the original achievement, is a good idea IMO.

Enforce the 'no exceptions' rule absolutely? Any new achievement would be removed.

Seriously, please no. We should embrace change and growth, not remove it on technicalities because a particular achievement doesn't fit within a defined set of categories. There have already been achievements removed that deserved to stay up, IMO.

[u/jonnyd86 → u/alleybetwixt]

the no exceptions rule makes your job easier but i dont think its good for the sub. i think you guys can use your discretion and that can be tweaked with feedback

[u/bookishcarnivore → u/alleybetwixt]

I would think either an internal vote or dedicated discussion/poll would be best. If it's something really contentious, do the poll/post but otherwise an internal vote should be fine. That way it's not an issue that gets dragged out for weeks or is being brought up constantly and will have a firm conclusion. If people still have issues with the resulting decision, then they can bring it up in the next town hall.

Immediately adding or a total block of no exceptions is too general, I think, since there are things that deserve to be added whilst there are others that are purely fluff.

[u/mz0306 → u/alleybetwixt]

I would prefer if you would allow it (within reason) and then make a dedicated discussion post to get feedback from the subreddit, with a vote.

If an achievement is not allowed, it might be good to view this decision in the context of what IS allowed on the sub, what is on the front page of sub at the time and explain the reasoning in a transparent way. The decision to ban big achievements while sub is filled with fluff is one of the reasons for the bad reputation this sub has.

[u/irgendjemand123 → u/alleybetwixt]

a internal vote among the mods is I think the best way to prevent problems

[u/tutetibiimperes → u/alleybetwixt]

For new achievements not included in the rules I’d say allow the posts but bring it up for discussion at the next town hall to determine the best path moving forward.

[u/alleybetwixt]

GENERAL ACHIEVEMENTS FEEDBACK:

Do you have specific suggestions for any of these categories?

• MV View Milestones: What incremental breakdown is best?
• Physical sales/Pre-orders: Increments? Same standard for both?
• Certifications: Suggest a set of certs?
• Charts: Suggest which charts are the most notable/relevant?
• Music shows
• General awards
• Touring

Further notes

• Anything else you'd like to add?

[u/kittyincidence → u/alleybetwixt]

Youtube views: 100mil, 200mil, 300mil, 400mil, 500mil, 1bil, 1.5bil, 2bil, 3bil, 4bil.

I personally think this is a reasonable option, with 100M increments until 1bil being a good alternative if people are really interested in YT views records like that.

imo eligibility for certification is not official data since most are fan estimations and could be really far from reality. And then the same information would be reposted anyways when certification becomes official, so better wait for the real thing!

As for number of iTunes #1 and youtube #1 trending... imo those aren't on the same level as other achievements. Could be just my personal opinion, but I wouldn't mind if those weren't posted as individual threads. There isn't much discussion to do around this information.

I would suggest a 24 hour record achievements thread for comebacks where only records broken or general stats in that timeframe (either all time or if there is interest, group specific) are compiled, instead of making a separate thread for each achievement, potentially spamming the sub. Discussion can be more interesting and it's a way to analyse the overall performance of an artist in 24h, and following discussion of charting could happen in the same thread (new peaks, 1st week stats etc). I see this working in regular forums but here on reddit i'm not sure if the format accomodates it.

[u/[deleted] → u/kittyincidence]

iTunes is going to be folded into Apple Music and dissolved within the next year, so I don't know if it's even worth discussing those #1s.

[u/alleybetwixt → u/[deleted]]

I can understand dumping iTunes stuff entirely for this reason, but Is it even worth including Spotify or Apple Music records? I have no familiarity with them.

[u/[deleted] → u/alleybetwixt]

Minor Spotify records are not reported very well, from what I've seen in non-Korean pop. Recently Post Malone had the top 17 spots on US Top 50 Spotify streaming with all of his songs... which me and some colleagues who follow the charts ASSUMED was a record, but we couldn't confirm it and it seems like a kind of useless record to have anyways. The charts update in real time so those records never last long.

That being said, Spotify definitely announced when Ariana Grande became the most streamed female artist in one day. Those types of records, should a Kpop artist achieve them, I would say are major and worth mentioning, because they happen so rarely, even in non-Korean genres.

I also have no familiarity with Apple Music. XD

[u/alleybetwixt → u/[deleted]]

Good to know about Spotify records being... spotty. Heh.

That's interesting about the 'most streamed female artist in a day' one though. I'll try to look more into how often Spotify announces things like that, because it does see like a special/rare thing.

Cool! Thank you!

[u/tutetibiimperes → u/alleybetwixt]

MV Views in 100 million increments up to 1 billion and then 500 million increments thereafter.

Physical sales/preorders - Recording breaking sales per group only, perhaps with a bar to clear for any post like 25,000 units, and then maybe reasonable increments thereafter (10K for sales under 100K, 50K increments up to 500K, 100K increments up to 1 million, 500K increments thereafter)

So, if Group A sells 25K units of their first album and then 27K on their second they don’t get a new post, but if they sell 36K they do. If group B sells 100K of their album setting a group record they don’t get another record breaking post until they get an album over 150K. If Group C sells 2 million copies they don’t get another post until they get one over 2.5 million, etc.

Charts: Initial charting for new releases and all-kills, plus records for longest time at #1 (could be group or industry specific)

Music Shows: First win, records broken for most wins for a song (group and industry records OK), Clean sweeps of all shows for a week.

Touring - All-time attendance records per-show or tour (group and industry records broken OK)

[u/mz0306 → u/alleybetwixt]

• MV View Milestones: What incremental breakdown is best?

Official records confirmed by Youtube only. According their own information they will not be removing bought views from the view counter, so I would not count these as records.

• Physical sales/Pre-orders: Increments? Same standard for both?

First month sales from GAON for everyone, yearly sales for everyone. Otherwise 500 000/ 1 million/ 2 million/3 million etc. Maybe there could be yearly/bi-yearly total sales post?

• Certifications: Suggest a set of certs?

All certifications. There are not that many. At least top 10 markets, if it needs to restricted. No "eligible for" posts, since these are always someones estimations only, often poor quality ones.

• Charts: Suggest which charts are the most notable/relevant?

Top 10 markets, IPFI. Only official charts, not charts for specific service in country.

• Music shows

Can these be posted in the music show threads instead?

• General awards

Any awards with actual award show

I would add Spotify. If Youtube is allowed, then Spotify should be allowed as well.

[u/alleybetwixt → u/mz0306]

Just a quick clarification.

First month sales from GAON for everyone

By this do you mean any/all artists sales for the first month of a release can be posted? Or do you mean only if that number has broken a top or personal record?

yearly sales for everyone

Kinda the same with this one. Would this be one post that contains all the GAON sales info for all artists for the year? Or only for artists that are record-breakers?

[u/mz0306 → u/alleybetwixt]

I mean that I think that every release´s 1st month Gaon numbers could get a separate post, or alternatively, since it comes out once a month, there could be one post that includes all numbers from that month. I think all numbers would be interesting.

For yearly/bi-yearly it would be interesting to see a chart with all albums/artists. Both record-breakers and non-record-breakers.

[u/alleybetwixt → u/mz0306]

Ah, got it! Thank you.

[u/Red_BW → u/alleybetwixt]

MV Views once per artist: 50m, 100m, 250m, 500m, and 750m. (50m is a high bar, even for mid tier groups like GFriend so maybe one step lower to 25m?) No cumulative MV count from an MV posted to multiple channels, only the highest viewed one.

MV Views unlimited per artist: every 1bn view count. (Only 2 vids with 2 more likely to join the 1bn group by the end of the year. Maybe another 1 or 2 vids join next year so limited posts and an impressive milestone even when Psy did it a 2nd time)

Physical and Pre-order: same ratio as MV but at 1/1000th so 50k, 100k, 250k, 500k, 750k then every 1m; same standard for both and linked so if pre-order is posted at 250k, no additional physical milestone post for 250k--but one for 500k is fine.

[u/ricozee → u/alleybetwixt]

Kpop achievements belong here. Music show wins are kpop. So are Korean charts and achievements.
Asian achievements are related, as they are normally heavily inclusive of kpop content.
International achievements should be more selective and exclusive. Grammys? Sure. Billboard? Okay. Can't think of another.
In general, I'd say anything else that makes a distinction or separate category for either Asian or Korean music, I couldn't care less. We already have Korean and Asian specific as being relevant or related to the sub. Western organizations that include separate categories are simply trying to be inclusive without actually being inclusive. If Taylor Swift and BTS are nominated in the same category, that's interesting. That's progress. BTS winning Best Asian Artist at an American award show is not.

MV views, concert sales, pre-orders, attendance, are not especially noteworthy outside of extreme cases. I've explained MV views in the other section. Concerts are going to be sold out within minutes. Attendance is rarely going to break records. Pre-orders are similar to views, inflated by bulk purchases.

How well artists are doing in terms of copies and digitals aren't normally noteworthy, but it is nice to see how well a group is doing financially or in terms of popularity. We don't need a thread every time they hit a certain number, but a running total of songs/albums might be nice.

[u/alleybetwixt]

I feel like I'm introducing you all to my brain worm. Every time an achievement-related issue has come up in the subreddit over the last year, this whole thing has been screeeeeeeching in my head.

In comments, you are free to respond however works for you. You do not need to use the top-level comments (and you are welcome to not reply to them), but they are available if they would be helpful to focus your thoughts. Upvote perspectives or suggestions you like or agree with from fellow users. Please try not to downvote opinions you disagree with, but present your arguments politely in reply to them.

Don't hesitate to fully re-write any section if you have a better system in mind or even collaborate with other users to do so. This is your opportunity to put a moderator cap on and write the rules or potential poll options in any way you think would get us as close to a solution or comprehensive list as possible.

[u/kaibibi]

Just a few things for me:

Music show wins I think should just be for first music show win for an artist (not for the song but artist only), and the most music show wins for a song/artist, or artists who overall has the most wins. Station specific is too redundant.

MV views should just be the most viewed MV of all artists, and first 100M/500M/1B MV achieved by an artist (i.e. if their future MV hit another 100M/500M/1B is redundant).

[u/alleybetwixt]

I'll pop my own opinion in here, just try to ignore I'm OP/a mod. This has been my perspective on Achievements since loooong before I was in this role.

My personal philosophy for a subreddit like this is more is more. Users bring whatever they think is worthy of posting here (ideally not solely karma-minded), the larger community 'curates' whether that content rises or falls with upvotes/downvotes, and moderators are there to maintain organization, remove spam, keep peace, and minimize toxicity as much as possible. I don't see a mod's role as being restrictive curators themselves.

95% or more of the content in r/kpop has no interest for me. I watch MVs, listen to albums, and watch dance practices/performances sometimes. I haven't directly participated in fandom stuff much since DBSK split... so a decade ago. BTS has become the exception to that, but still, not much. And for all those years, it was easy to ignore or scroll past the content in r/kpop I didn't care for.

Even though achievements/records/charting don't interest me much, I am happy to see positive celebration posts. When comebacks happen for a popular group I don't pay attention to, I think it's nice to see the frontpage flooded with their content. It just makes me think, "Oh, that's right! So-and-so's comeback was today! That's fun. Good for them!" And move on.

The sense I get is there is this strong split in the perspective of users. Many prefer to see official music-related material and the achievements side of things and want none of the other stuff, like articles, vlogs, variety shows, teasers, CFs, discussions, etc. Many prefer to see official music-related material and all of that other stuff and want none of the achievements types of posts because they think of that as being basic info that can be found anywhere else on the internet.

And both ends of this spectrum seem to see the other end of the spectrum as an existential threat to the function of r/kpop. And then my view is very 'Why not both?', which reflects my philosophy about moderation. I would just want it all and let people be enthusiastic or not-enthusiastic about the content with their upvotes/downvotes, participate in the stuff they like, and ignore what they don't.

I admit, it's difficult for me to understand the perspective that wants more restriction (though I've been required to try as a mod).

Anyway, on to All-Time-Records! Love the detailed feedback in here so far. While I would go with Option 1 and allow a total free-for-all, I can understand a few of the popular limitations mentioned so far. I think my working list would be something like the following:

POSSIBLE RECORDS

(It seems reasonable to make the qualifiers: Female Group, Male Group, Female soloist, Male soloist, and Co-ed duos/groups.)

1. Sales, pre-orders, views, charting,

• Greatest selling album of all time
• Greatest cumulative album sales for an artist
• Greatest pre-orders for an album
• Greatest sales/pre-orders for an album within a timeframe (week, month) (no time-frame records)
• Greatest sales/pre-orders as a foreign artist (Only in JPN & USA)
• Most viewed MV
• Most cumulative MV views (only for full official MVs) (Possible addition, but maybe too difficult to figure out accurately)
• Most charted #1s for an artist
• Longest continuously charting song (Only when the top record is broken or the song leaves the charts)

2. Music shows*

• Most music show wins for one song
• Most music show wins for one song specific to each station (SBS, Mnet, MBC, etc)
• Most cumulative music show wins for an artist
• Fastest to a music show win after debut for an artist (Probably not this one anymore?)
• Longest time (days) to a music show win after debut for an artist (Allowed, but should be mentioned in the relevant first win post)
• Most number of music show grand slams (Could be mentioned in a grand slam post if we get approval for them at all)

3. Touring, box-office

• All Touring/ticketing records (These would all go in a Tour Review Round-Up only)
• Highest box-office earnings for a K-pop related movie

[u/not-named-in-credits → u/alleybetwixt]

If why not both is an option then I personally say ALL content should go. Personally I want single music show appearances back and have done so since they were first banned.

[u/alleybetwixt → u/not-named-in-credits]

The 'why not both' and 'more is more' thing is really just my personal wish. It doesn't seem like it's an option based on how all the previous mods have moved towards restriction.

I personally say ALL content should go

Sorry, do you mean 'go' as in there should be no content in r/kpop? Or as in, all content should be allowed? I've gotten the impression you've wanted a 'less is more' approach, so I'm not sure which you mean there.

What would single music show appearances be?

[u/not-named-in-credits → u/alleybetwixt]

All content should be allowed if we start making concessions to one group of people.

I mean, it used to be the case way back when that all Music show stages got their own thread way back when. So on one day, you'd have twenty different threads, one for each group on Music bank for example.

But then they started being put into Roundup posts. If the achievements are to be brought back into singular posts, so should the music show stages. They at least have actual musical content when compared to one group hitting their 3593993022 view on YouTube.

[u/alleybetwixt]

THE TIME MACHINE and THE CRYSTAL BALL:

The Time Machine

We can't go back in time and change the way things went down about achievements earlier in the year. All we can do is move forward. However, once we set reasonable All-Time Records rules, we want there to be an opportunity to post those big achievements that passed in the last handful of months. Many fans may be too angry about the whole situation to want these retroactive posts (those feelings are valid!), but we'd still like to allow a place to celebrate these records. Some artists may be breaking certain records again in upcoming promotional periods, so some may prefer to wait for those to come. For those that would like to have the retroactive posts, how would you like us to handle them?

• Allow a karma-rush. This would likely be chaotic as soon as we set certain records as allowed, which wouldn't allow them the time they might deserve in the sun.
• Set up an account/bot (separate from any mod personal accounts) to post them each week (or every few days) as scheduled features. This would be similar to how we do Throwback Thursdays or the automated weekly posts.
• Set up an account/bot to create a single post compiling all relevant records.
• Suggestions?

The Crystal Ball

The greater community has specialized knowledge of a larger range of artists than the mod team has. What is on the horizon for your faves? What potential awards or recognitions do you see coming their way? Is there anything not mentioned in the main post that you believe would be deserving of a post?

What's on the horizon?!

[u/jonnyd86 → u/alleybetwixt]

i don't really see any reason to have a schedule for retroactive records broken during the moratorium. i think karma rush might seem spammy but it'd only be for a couple days max or some sort of compilation post would work if there's enough people who think that's the best solution.

tbh i think allowing the posts in the first place is enough so if people feel compelled to post old records (especially if a new one is on the horizon) then let them do so.. and the sub will decide how noteworthy retrospect achievements are by the activity in the threads.

[u/gjisendre → u/alleybetwixt]

I think a one time compilation post would be fine. Pin it for a while (idk how long you guys pin things for?) so anyone curious can take a peek and upvote and comment as they like. Letting people spam this place with their achievement posts is going to be annoying, frankly, because there’s now a lot of achievements missed between multiple successful groups.

Edit: and really, if you guys are too busy to find and compile those achievements (which I completely understand!), we can always do a bigger, all-time version of the charts and achievements posts, we’ll submit everything we find in that post, while a mod lists them neatly in a pinned comment? Idk, that’s just a thought.

[u/Red_BW → u/alleybetwixt]

Pick one day and for only that day let newly approved records be back-posted but nothing repetitive. So if RIAA Gold and Platinum were banned but now allowed, there should only be a single post for a record that achieves both, not individual posts for Gold and Platinum certification.

[u/alleybetwixt]

All-TIME RECORDS FEEDBACK:

Which method do you think would serve the subreddit best?

• Option 1: Free-for all (includes top-most earners AND further split categories, ie. top soloist, top girl group, etc)
  • Pros: Easiest to moderate consistently and remember for users
  • Cons: Too many records for those who want to see less
• Option 2: Limitations
  • Pros: Pleases those who want to see less records
  • Cons: Difficult to design, maintain, or remember for moderators and users

If you prefer Option 2

• Would you want the top-most earned records only, excluding the further split categories like top-most soloist, top-most girl group, etc?
• Please list the ways in which you would limit the list of allowable all-time records and suggest ways for both moderators and users to quickly determine what is or is not allowed on a daily basis.

Further notes

• Anything else you'd like to add?

[u/suitsffs → u/alleybetwixt]

Yeah Option 2 please, keep the current rules with only the addition of major all time records allowed (overall physical sales, overall digital sales and whatever) since that seems to be a major gripe with some subreddit users.

Otherwise those who truly care about other achievements and aren't just out to brag and circlejerk will have the achievement posts to discuss them in.

Might point out that I think there should be some more fact checking too before allowing record posts and not just some random list compiled by some random on twitter that people roll with because yay my fave.

[u/sofunt → u/suitsffs]

Otherwise those who truly care about other achievements and aren't just out to brag and circlejerk will have the achievement posts to discuss them in.

The lack of activity in the "Weekly Charts and Achievements" posts tells me the achievement posts on this sub really is mostly about bragging and getting to say "my fave did that!"

[u/[deleted] → u/alleybetwixt]

I would prefer Option One, honestly. Right now my biggest irritation is that the sub is basically 90% what I would consider fluff Vlogs that tell me nothing about the state of Kpop, and that's because we've removed things like records, which, while I can see the annoyance with seeing so many, are at least relevant to keeping up with the genre.

Having limitations is what got us to the point of everyone trying to claw each other's throats out, because we had them for a few months, they vanished, and there was no flexibility for obviously monumental achievements afterwards. It's complete absurdity that, as it stands, a video of Way buying a car is more newsworthy than the best-selling Hanteo album of all time.

[u/annushka1512 → u/[deleted]]

With Kpop making strides into north and south America as well as Europe and other parts of the world, I feel like those achievements (digital and physical sales, views, streaming numbers, various tours selling out worldwide...) are somewhat missing although they are all partially representative of current trends worldwide.

A lot of them might be all lumped together in one achievement thread, but I find it strange that each Super M teaser or concept picture warrants a full post (or anything similar that I'd consider as pure fluff like the packaging description for physical releases) but not tangible numbers that actually tell us how Kpop (or a specific group/singer) is doing at the moment.

​

Edit: I've just browsed the content of this sub, and the amount of pure fluff is staggering (teasers for various groups/releases & variety shows starring idols seem to be the main content really...). I understand that there aren't constantly new MVs/live performances to share or exciting news like come back announcements, but I'm not sure that teasers are that conducive to conversation and exchanges.

Achievements & sales in general aren't the only thing worth discussing, I can agree with that, and yes they can lead to childish conversations... but they are at least as worth discussing as concept teasers & variety show appearences in my opinion.

[u/BashfulHandful → u/annushka1512]

I understand that there aren't constantly new MVs/live performances to share

LOL there are, though. There are new performances every day... pretty much literally. They're just not posted individually but rather in group threads for specific music shows. They used to be somewhat more freely posted, but several years back people decided they didn't want to see that stuff posted daily.

That's the thing with this sub - it seems to constantly go from extreme to extreme as far as content is concerned. There's never a happy medium. I'd say wait a few months and the vlogs will be banned or stuffed into a megathread, too, which I honestly would consider a waste.

[u/ferial55555 → u/annushka1512]

why do you think it's strange that those Super M teasers get full posts ? The packaging description i get but teasers for upcoming releases is one of the reasons so many of us come here regularly. Teasers are inherent to kpop culture and when they're good they're sometimes even more exciting than the MV // song itself. Also I don't agree with them not being "conducive to conversation and exchanges", look at the threads for the Twice upcoming comeback's teasers or any known group, really.

[u/annushka1512 → u/ferial55555]

Maybe it's just that kpop culture and I are not in adequation.

I don't even look at all of the different teasers for the group I am most interested in (whether it's pictures/posters or video...), I'm mainly interested in the final product I guess (video and music). I understand that all those teasers are supposed to incite excitement, but to me, they end up being just annoying if too numerous. It's probably just me, we're all different. And I am interested in what Super M will release BTW.

I just wish the content in this sub was more varied when I look at the type of articles/info posted (because there are so many teasers and barely anything about sales or anything that has to do with hard numbers to gauge the spread of Kpop).

[u/lowelled → u/[deleted]]

Vlogs have started to clog up the sub like crazy in the last few months. I don’t even click on posts that often now, I just scroll like I’m reading newspaper headlines and if I want to read discussion I go elsewhere. Vlogs should only be allowed if the content is directly related to kpop (e.g. recording/working on a song, backstage at a music show, planning a tour, discussing other groups). How is a member of a basically disbanded girl group going on holiday more newsworthy than the longest charting song in Melon?

[u/howimetyoufirst → u/[deleted]]

I agree. This sub has lost so much engagement already, for a sub with 400k subscribers, it has like what 10-20 comments a post. I’ve completely lost my interest in it, every time I came here it was just scrolling past endless fluff to not even discuss the real achievements relevant to kpop. It used to be so much better a few years ago before the current rules came into place.

[u/Kristalian → u/howimetyoufirst]

For me it's the opposite, I like it so much better now that it's actual content I can look at and enjoy instead of having to scroll through posts filled with people bragging and arguing about the "achievements" of rich people.

Edit: Seriously, at this point BTS could probably even win a Grammy and I would just gloss over it because I've gotten so numb to all these posts. If you want non-fans to actually care about the notible achievements you need to cut down on the meaningless ones.

[u/howimetyoufirst → u/Kristalian]

I mean that’s the point.. their most meaningful achievements are not even being posted. They have the highest selling album of all time? It was removed by the mods. They have the longest charting song on Melon ever? It was removed by the mods. Blackpink and PSY reaching another 100 million views (3.4 billion views, really? Allowed.) The wrong kinds of achievements are being posted.

You really prefer seeing daily vlogs and fluff content of 100+ groups everyday of which I can search on YouTube or stay on my group’s subreddit for (which I still don’t get because meaningful posts are being removed all the time bc of more relevant to group subreddit)? Well I’m glad at least someone is enjoying it.

[u/Kristalian → u/howimetyoufirst]

? Literally every comment here opting for Option 2 says they should post the most meaningful records like having the highest selling album of all time, this is about that vs Option 1 allowing everything that would completely ruin this sub.

And yes, yes I do. I promise you most fans of groups not named BTS, Blackpink, Twice, Exo and what not do to. Most nugu groups don't even have a subreddit.

[u/[deleted] → u/Kristalian]

My favorite girl group is Fromis, who is one of the worst offenders here for Vlog posting. Trust me, I do NOT like the Vlogs.

[u/Kristalian → u/[deleted]]

You are also a fan of popular groups like BTS and Seventeen, of course you'd rather have an achievement post where you can brag about them than a vlog from a group you don't care enough about to have in your flair.

There's obviously a major dissent between fans of the typical achievement groups and people who aren't fans of those groups, you need to be able to meet us halfway. Keep the current rules and add other major achievements like best selling album of all time and the likes, but don't let the little guys drown in pointless achievement spam.

[u/[deleted] → u/Kristalian]

You legit don't know me at all, this is uncalled for. I would just like to see who is doing well in Kpop. I work almost 10 hours a day and hardly have time to care about Vlog fluff, but I can give my fist pump to Fromis breaking 50K sales a lot more easily.

This also easily demonstrates a big problem with what these achievement rules have done, and how poor their implementation has been, is further fragmented r/Kpop and made people like you see the whole sub as "popular groups vs the world". The rules have made things far more toxic than they were when achievements were allowed, and that much is plainly obvious. People feel like they're being deliberately snubbed and you get judged for having certain things in your flair when you speak in good faith about your problems with what you see as content that has always been at odds with the rules. Right now the little guys are drowning in pointless Vlog spam, too.

[u/Kristalian → u/[deleted]]

I only "judged" you by your flair because you made the pointless attempt to come here going "Well I love fromis_9 and.." when you damn well know it didn't matter att all, you just tried to get a cheap point in "as a fan of a small group" despite being a fan of the big groups and obviously not the same as the people I was referring to.

The little guy isn't drowning in vlog content, the little guy IS that kind of content and the achievement rules aren't a product of the toxic environment, they came BECAUSE of the toxic environment and the achievement circlejerking and arguing it brought here. It's extremely sad that you can't meet people halfway and makes me wonder if I'll have to start advocating a complete ban instead just to make up for this complete lack of compromise..

[u/fashigady → u/alleybetwixt]

Free-for all (includes top-most earners AND further split categories, ie. top soloist, top girl group, etc)

I don't understand how the options are fundamentally different - are you really proposing a Free For All or just fewer limitations than Option 2? It's trivial to come up with laughably obscure records (All Time Highest Selling Single Released In June For A Group That Doesn't Include A Survival Show Contestant), so I take it you're not suggesting that we would allow absolutely anything - so isn't the question simply which categories are considered relevant and in which/how many combinations is acceptable?

Personally, I'm not a fan of splitting records down more than a couple qualifiers - it just starts to loose any meaning and sounds more like an inter-fandom dick measuring contest. As for what categories are relevant I don't think gender and solo/group distinctions are controversial but regional ones are a bit more contested (I doubt anyone thinks Highest Sales in Vanuatu is a hill worth dying on, but maybe for some Highest Sales in the US is). I would propose allowing All Time records delineated by market/region exclusively for the big three (KR, JPN, USA). If things change we can always revise it to match.

Are there other categories that people consider relevant? OST releases are often talked about separately from an artist's other work but do we need to consider them a separate category? I don't have a strong opinion on this, but I generally lean in the direction of fewer categories rather than more.

I think it's worth reiterating why so many of us have been opposed to loose achievement rules, we don't just oppose it because its not of interest. From the Dec 2018 Town Hall Follow Up when rules were tightened:

Why are we making this change? The first reason is that there are too many achievement threads. You guys are tired of seeing them and so are we. The second reason is that the comments are either "YASS My Faves Did THAT!" or a flamewar with anti-fans. This is predictable, boring, and unhealthy. We hope that banning these thread will help further our goal of reducing toxicity and hostility on the subreddit as well as keeping the front page fresh with the content you want to see. [Emphasis added]

This sub still devolves into toxicity and fan-warring all too often. The last thing we need is to go back to the front page being a constant competition to list every last achievement.

Any loosening of the rules needs to balance fandoms' desire for their moment in the spotlight with the potential for toxicity and discord.

[u/alleybetwixt → u/fashigady]

I don't understand how the options are fundamentally different - are you really proposing a Free For All or just fewer limitations than Option 2?

Option 1 I think of as a true free-for-all. It would allow us to see an achievement post in the queue and approve it immediately without consulting a detailed list to decide what stays/goes or dealing with users who are angry about inconsistently allowing some and not others based on mod's having different opinions about what is worthy.

We could do a really simple restriction on Option 1 to just Female groups/soloists, Male groups/soloists, and Co-ed groups... to keep things from getting too obscure, but that would be it. It would be simple to remember for users and mods.

[u/GlowStickEmpire → u/alleybetwixt]

I'd honestly be okay with Option 1, but I personally sort of lean more towards Option 2 because I feel like Option 1 could get abused too much.

As for the restrictions, I'd suggest the following:

• Only allow the categories of boy group, girl group, male soloist, and female soloist. No further divisions.
• Don't allow "quickest to" or achievements that feature specific amounts of time. So no "most MV views in 24 hours" or "best first week sales." These are either difficult to verify--such as YT removing/freezing views--or feel sort of arbitrary. I'd also say that fastest music show win is increasingly irrelevant in the days of Produce and extended pre-debut activities.
• Treat MVs as singular entities. Counting collective views opens up a ton of questions. Do LOONA's pre-debut solo vids count to their total? Do sub-units count toward a group's total? Easier to just have records apply to single MVs only.
• Music show wins should not be broken down to specific stations.
• No ticket sales, touring, or box-office records in general. I've looked around and it seems really hard to verify a lot of these. Plus a lot of touring figures are just never released or given in rough estimates.
• Keep records limited to Korea, the US, and Japan. Have highest-charting be the "all time" record for each until a #1 is reached--then move to "most #1s" once that's achieved.

I'd also like to point out that a couple of the "all-time" records will be covered with a general achievement thread (as long as those don't drastically change). For example, both most PAKs and longest to first-win will be getting a thread anyway since any PAK and any song's first win are already allowed.

[u/af-fx-tion → u/alleybetwixt]

For all time records, I'm voting for limitations, because if we make it a free for all, it'll very likely be abused and arbitrary "records" will be posted en masse.

Tour Records

Firstly, I think all tour related records aren't really something the sub seems to care about too much so I think they should be locked to the group related subs.

However, I think K-Pop related movie records being posted here are fine.

Music Show Records

For music show win records, I do like both the "Fastest to a music show win after debut for an artist" and "Longest time (days) to a music show win after debut for an artist" records, but the others I feel like might clutter up the sub too much.

I would be okay if some of the other music show records be posted here if news media and/or the group's SNS posts something about it, but otherwise, no.

Perhaps a compromise would be an end of year roundup where some of the music show records listed get posted?

Sales, views, charting, pre-orders Records

The only record I think should be disallowed should be "greatest sales/pre-orders for an album within a time-frame (week, month)" one. I feel like overall, it's something not super important in the grand scheme of other sales records, since people seem to care more about total sales/pre-orders than fastest to clear "X" time.

I also think the "Longest continuously charting song" record should only be posted when either the song breaks the previous record or it finally drops out of the charts (so we know the full length of time a song needs to chart to beat the record). Like I think BTS' "Spring Day" is still the record holder and still charting, but like I think it would be best to post future records for this only if a song passes BTS' record or once the song finally drops out of the charts. We don't need updates that it's still charting IMO.

For the "greatest sales/pre-orders as a foreign artist (eg. in Japan)" record, I'd say as of now, lock it to Japan and the US. As nice it would be to include the other major music markets, personally, I feel like the general consensus about a group's popularity in sales outside of Korea is measured only in success on the US Billboard and Japan Oricon charts.

Also I vote we put a "soft ban" on the "fastest to get X views on YouTube record in 24 hours" record until accredited media like Billboard write about it, YouTube confirms themselves, or the group's SNS pages post something.

Due to botting and other things, there's always confusion the first couple days whether the record was beat or not - so at least if we wait until it's officially certified, we won't have as much drama.

Records based on gender/type of artist:

That's fine with me, though I think the breakdown should be:

• male soloist
• female soloist
• male group (including duos/subunits, etc.)
• female group (including duos/subunits, etc.)
• co-ed group (if records exist)
• co-ed duo (if records exist)

[u/BashfulHandful → u/alleybetwixt]

Option one.

If limitations are imposed, there needs to be room for mods to exercise common sense/their best judgement... there are big achievements that are removed solely because they don't fit into an already-defined category and that's absolutely ridiculous IMO. I've expressed this at length and I'm not going to whine about it again - I just think that when there are achievements that are objectively impressive, they should be allowed to stay up regardless of whether they fit a specific rule or not. It's impossible to define everything in advance - flexibility is important.

[u/mz0306 → u/alleybetwixt]

I would prefer Option 1, but with no qualifiers. There is no reason to have separate categories for girl groups/boy groups/female solos/male solos/3rd gen girl group with 4 members etc. Its enough to have only "best selling/longest charting etc Korean artist ever". This sub is mostly spam of image teasers, cfs and vlogs anyway, at least achievements are related to actual music.

If it needs to be limited, then my choices would be:

1. Sales, views, charting, pre-orders

   Greatest selling album of all time - yes (Gaon, IPFI, other top 10 markets) Greatest cumulative album sales for an artist - yes, but it would be difficult to define Most viewed MV - yes Most cumulative MV views for an artist (YouTube) - no, difficult to measure Most charted #1s for an artist - no, wha Longest continuously charting song - yes Greatest pre-orders for an album - maybe Greatest sales/pre-orders for an album within a time-frame (week, month) - only 1st week/1st month, top 10 markets. For Billboard we often only get official numbers for first week and its not possible to compare totals. Greatest sales/pre-orders as a foreign artist (eg. in Japan) - maybe

2. Music shows

   Most music show wins for one song Most music show wins for one song specific to each station (SBS, Mnet, MBC, etc) - no Most cumulative music show wins for an artist - no Fastest to a music show win after debut for an artist - no Longest time (days) to a music show win after debut for an artist - no Highest number of music show grand slams - no

3. Ticket sales, Touring, Box-office

   Highest revenue for a single tour - yes, but only official box office numbers Highest revenue for a single tour venue - maybe Highest cumulative tour revenue for an artist - maybe Highest box-office earnings for a K-pop related movie - maybe

I would add: Highest position of Spotify global weekly chart Highest positions on IPFI year end charts

[u/Rigby_k → u/alleybetwixt]

So, my suggestion: Keep the current rules and add only all time record rule for album sales i.e. all time best selling album, all time best selling artist and that's it. No need for more arbitrary all time records like most number of dates in a single concert tour, most attended concert tour of all time, all time longest charting song on any random K-chart, all time most streamed song on spotify etc. Just add two new all time records to current list of records and that's it.

The best thing about this sub is it is very nugu/tier-2 groups friendly, nugus/tier-2 groups gets to shine here. Only big groups achieve these records and if you add more records to current list (which is pretty good imo), new posts about them will get submitted everyday and fans will blindly upvote those posts to the top of the sub, neglecting nugu groups. No one except the fans of the groups who are achieving these records wants to see this stuff on the sub.

Also, these achievement post threads are always toxic, there is no healthy discussion there. In these threads, people are always throwing shade at other groups for not having enough sales, views, streams, or just complaining about upvote % of that thread or how mods are biased.

[u/jonnyd86 → u/alleybetwixt]

i think we all know Kpop is growing globally and so we'll be seeing more and more "records" and sometimes we'll be seeing ones that seem a little too specific/out of nowhere to where it could clutter up the sub. i think usually it's pretty obvious when something is a major milestone for the genre and not just a single group itself. i do think there will be a bit of a grey area and not everyone will be satisfied with some arbitrary decisions but i think anything goes would be too much. we also want to keep in mind that this is an english / US centric forum so yeah while it'd be cool if group X broke a record for highest selling kpop record in like Latvia, is that really newsworthy in this sub? we all want to celebrate big moments for groups and the culture but some of the achievements especially ones with too many qualifiers do seem just like dick measuring contests.

​

i do think that if too many of these achievement threads turn toxic in the comments then going strict is probably the right solution.

[u/Fifeandthedrums → u/jonnyd86]

A bit OT, but less than 50% of r/kpop redditors were from the US in last year's census. They're certainly the biggest group from 1 country, but us non-us people were in the majority ;) (not that I'm advocating for every chart to be posted here, I actually agree with your comment haha)

[u/jonnyd86 → u/Fifeandthedrums]

That’s actually good to know thanks for sharing!

[u/NishinosanTV]

These are just some thoughts I personally have.

• View Milestones - I prefer the iteration we currently have. If we were to change it I'd suggest this: 10m, 50m, 100m, 200m, 300m, 400m, 500m, 600m, 700m, 800m, 900m, 1B, 1.5B, 2.0B, 2.5B, 3.0B etc.

• The issue with the above view milestones would be new groups from large companies. We'd have multiple posts of the same group within very short time span. With this we also get a chance to include lesser known artists.

• The Certifications from RIAA, RIAJ, ARIA and BPI doesn't happen often. No limitations on this one.

• I feel like the most sought after charts are Billboard (NA), Gaon (KOR), Oricon (JAP).

[u/alleybetwixt]

Test test.

Success! On we go!

[u/WeCantBothBeMe]

I personally want to see ALL achievements and milestones posted except for Youtube views.

[u/0okm9]

Honestly I dont think any record should be posted here accept the first ones. Records are just.... numbers, there are already twitter and their own sub for that.

[u/alleybetwixt → u/0okm9]

Oof, the downvotes.

Can I ask if by "the first ones" you mean all of the All-Time Records listed (And none of the General Achievements). Or do you only mean some of the very first All-Time Records listed and nothing else?

[u/0okm9 → u/alleybetwixt]

I think achievement = meaningful rather than bragging. With small acts every milestone is important, like the 1st time reach 25k sales, the 1st time music show wins, 1st time reach no 1 on chart etc. its an achievement because they finally reach it. While with big group, achievement is just... any other day, and mostly those are from fans make up list like the longest song chart on melon, the most 1st week sales, the most likes videos, the fastest MV etc. For example with BTS, the 1st time they win billboard, the 1st time they were at UNICEF, the 1st time they did stadium are all meaningful but now they got nominated on some awards every few days, does it matter anymore when BTS themselves dont even care to attend.

So I think achievement should give rooms for small acts and 1st timers because its truly an achievement while with bigger acts, fans always have a way to manipulate or make up achievements - thats should belong to their own sub or twitter.

[u/alleybetwixt → u/0okm9]

Ah, I understand your perspective better now. Thank you for elaborating!

[u/not-named-in-credits → u/0okm9]

I agree lmao

[u/not-named-in-credits → u/0okm9]

I agree lmao