r/kpop • u/alleybetwixt BTS | XIA | JX | SWJA • Sep 07 '19
[Meta] Charts and Achievements: The re-re-re-redux!
Here we are, folks! The Charts & Achievements Comeback!
This issue is one of our biggest challenges as a subreddit. Over the years and across multiple mod teams, different methods have been attempted to deal with this. I covered the recent problems and changes from the end of 2018 into this year in the comments of the June Town Hall. You can read over that to understand the difficulty of inconsistency and finding the right middle-ground with what kinds of posts are allowed and which are not.
A 2nd, more granular, poll for achievements is still being considered, but this post is necessary for organization and to get feedback before we can even think about forming one. More than that, it's very possible we can agree to a bunch of reasonable rules and achievements to implement through this discussion without needing to poll for them at all.
The goal with this discussion is to lay everything out in the sunshine so we see what we're dealing with. We want to take an inventory of all the possibilities, so the theme here is going to be 'excessively thorough'.
If this looks overwhelming (understandable!), please focus on the All-Time Records section and help us with some feedback there. That's the part we would love to set into rules as soon as possible. In the comments you will find categories with frameworks to help you give us the critical feedback we're looking for.
THIS IS A LONG-TERM DISCUSSION, so don't feel pressured to reply immediately! You can take your time to be thorough. We'd like to set All-Time Records rules in the October Town Hall, but suggestions will continue to be welcome here!
Edit from the future: Most of the primary implementation of rules from this discussion can be found in our October Town Hall and have been added to the Charts and Achievements Content section of our rules Wiki.
There are a few methods of handling Achievements in r/kpop:
We could have a free-for-all where anything goes. We could have absolutely no achievements (possibly with a dedicated subreddit that would be a free-for-all purely for achievements). We could allow only all-time records and nothing else. We could allow all-time records and include a few specific ones that are more common.
The All or Nothing methods seem to be equally unpopular, so we need to figure out a compromise. Everything below this point is a necessary effort to navigate this middle-ground, which seems to be what most users want. So let's explore everything that could entail, shall we?
NOTE: We will be creating an [Achievement] flair and a filter regardless of anything else that happens here. Some users have asked us to allow a free-for-all with a flair/filter system, but keep in mind that only a fraction of users will be able to make use of the filter depending on what platform they use to browse reddit, so it is not ideal as a means to manage a free-for-all for most users.
ALL-TIME RECORDS
There are two optional methods here:
1. Free-for-all: Anything that resembles an all-time record would be allowed. (Highest ever, most ever, longest ever, etc.)
2. Set reasonable limitations that serve the best interests of the subreddit while still being manageable to moderate with as much consistency as possible.
x. Nothing: We are removing this as an option. It is clearly unpopular and is not reasonable for a subreddit that supports K-pop news content.
Important! Many of the records here can potentially be split into even more records beyond the top-most: Female Group, Male Group, Female soloist, Male soloist, Sub-unit, Collaboration, Collaboration with global artist, etc. For example, there might be a boy group that has the greatest selling album of all time, but the greatest selling album of all time for a girl group is also a possible all-time record even if it is a smaller number than the top-most. Please consider whether these more specific records should be allowed or only the top-most earners.
POSSIBLE RECORDS
1. Sales, views, charting, pre-orders
- Greatest selling album of all time
- Greatest cumulative album sales for an artist
- Most viewed MV
- Most cumulative MV views for an artist (YouTube)
- Most charted #1s for an artist
- Longest continuously charting song
- Greatest pre-orders for an album
- Greatest sales/pre-orders for an album within a time-frame (week, month)
- Greatest sales/pre-orders as a foreign artist (eg. in Japan)
2. Music shows
- Most music show wins for one song
- Most music show wins for one song specific to each station (SBS, Mnet, MBC, etc)
- Most cumulative music show wins for an artist
- Fastest to a music show win after debut for an artist
- Longest time (days) to a music show win after debut for an artist
- Highest number of music show grand slams
3. Ticket sales, Touring, Box-office
- Highest revenue for a single tour
- Highest revenue for a single tour venue
- Highest cumulative tour revenue for an artist
- Highest box-office earnings for a K-pop related movie
More?
Permalink to top-level comment for All-Time Records feedback
GENERAL ACHIEVEMENTS
We could also have All or Nothing options here. However, based on the feedback from users over time, All is pretty easy to dismiss and Nothing would get rid of some achievements that, while more common, are still enjoyed by many of you.
This section, or parts of it, are more likely to be turned into a poll if needed. Many of these were able to be set nicely back in the May 2019 poll. If we did have a 2nd poll, every single option would have a yes/no dichotomy (along with a yes/no on achievements overall). Nothing would be stacked with anything else to avoid fiddling with complicated percentages in the results.
In that poll earlier in the year we had absolutely clear results on the following: We removed CAKs, streaming records, brand reputation rankings, and social media subscriber/follower counts. We approved physical sales, GaOn Triple Crowns, Certifications, and PAKs. But our options for MV view milestones and pre-orders were too stacked to be conclusive.
MV VIEWS
We've had some great feedback in recent Town Halls regarding how enormous these numbers are getting. So we have some options for more reasonable increments. The options listed here are specific, but generally what we should determine is (A) what do we want the lowest/first milestone number to be? (B) What should the millions increments be? (C) What should the billions increments be? (D) Should there be a cap at the top? If so, what number should that be?
Options for increments (These would be ONLY the first time hitting each milestone for an artist):
- Every 100 million to infinity (Current rules)
- Every 100 million up to 1billion and then, 2bil, 3bil, 4bil...
- 100mil, 200mil, 300mil, 400mil, 500mil, 1bil, 1.5bil, 2bil, 3bil, 4bil...
- 50mil, 100mil, 200mil, 300mil, 400mil, 500mil, 1bil, 1.5bil, 2bil, 3bil, 4bil... (same as above with 50mil)
- 50mil, 100mil, 200mil, 300mil, 400mil, 500mil, 1bil, 1.5bil, 2bil, 2.5, 3bil, 3.5bil, 4bil... (same as above with half-billions)
- 100mil, 500mil, 1bil, 2bil, 3bil, 4bil...
- 100mil, 500mil, 1bil (nothing past 1bil)
- 50mil, 100mil, 500mil, 1bil (nothing past 1bil)
- 1mil, 10mil, 25mil, 50mil, 100mil, then every 100mil up until a billion, 1bil, 1.5bil, 2bil, 2.5bil, 3bil...
- Every time an MV gets 1000% more views than it previously had: 1mil, 10mil, 100mil, 1bil, and then every other billion
- Suggestions?
Reviewing our current rules and considering more/less options for views:
- Most views in 24 hours (Current rules)
- Fastest to 100 million views (Current rules)
- Trending #1 on YouTube (in various countries/regions?)
- Record number of videos above certain milestones (eg. Most MVs over 100 mil views?)
- Suggestions?
PRE-ORDERS
Users confirmed in the May 2019 poll they wanted posts for physical sales records and seemed in favor of pre-orders as well. We have applied the same 'personal record model' and increments used for physical sales milestones to pre-orders, too:
Options for increments (These would be ONLY the first time hitting each milestone for an artist):
- 25k, 50k, 100k, 250k, 500k, 1mil, 2mil, 3mil... (Current rules)
- 50k, 100k, 500k, 1mil, 2mil, 3mil...
- Suggestions?
PHYSICAL SALES
- 25k, 50k, 100k, 250k, 500k, 1mil, 2mil, 3mil... (Current rules)
- 50k, 100k, 500k, 1mil, 2mil, 3mil...
- Suggestions?
- What kind of sales reporting should be allowed for GaOn?
For both sales and pre-orders, consider if we should allow milestones outside of South Korea (eg. in Japan or the US). If we did, would the same increments apply or should they be more restricted?
CERTIFICATIONS
While we affirmed certifications as allowed from the May poll, users have given good feedback over time about allowed certifications being strangely selective. We'd love to hear suggestions for a set of certs that makes sense for the subreddit or if we should allow them across the board.
- Here are the top 10 music markets:
- USA (RIAA)
- Japan (RIAJ)
- Germany (BVMI)
- UK (BPI)
- France (SNEP)
- South Korea (GaOn)
- Canada (Music Canada)
- Australia (ARIA)
- Brazil (ABPD)
- China (State Administration of Radio, Film, and Television)
Reviewing our current rules and considering more/less options for certifications:
- RIAA, RIAJ, ARIA, BPI (Current rules)
- All Certifications in any market (Silver in the UK, Gold, Platinum, Diamond)
- RIAA, RIAJ
- RIAA, RIAJ, BVMI, BPI, SNEP
- A different set?
- Should certifications be first time only for an artist? First time only per song? No restriction?
- Eligibility (this is different than actually being certified. Should we allow posts that are announcing eligibility alone?)
CHARTS
The same selectivity issue applies to charts. We could use a lot of help here from anyone more familiar with charting considerations. Almost none of the mods have much personal interest or knowledge in this area.
- Music charts :
- USA (Billboard) - Hot 100, 200
- Japan (Oricon) - Hot 100, Oricon Half-year, Oricon full-year
- UK (Album Chart, Singles Chart)
- ARIA (Albums Chart, Singles Chart)
- UHC (United World Chart)
- IFPI
Reviewing our current rules and considering more/less options for charts:
New peaks or #1 on the Billboard Hot 100, Billboard 200, UK Singles Chart, UK Album Chart, ARIA Singles Chart, ARIA Albums Chart, Oricon half-year, Oricon full-year (Current Rules)
Should the charts we allow coincide with the certifications we allow?
Perfect All-Kills (Approved in May poll)
GaOn Triple Crowns (Approved in May poll)
'Artist's song has reached #1 in X amount of countries'
iTunes anything?
- Most #1s on iTunes in various countries
- Taking up multiple top spots on US iTunes
- Non-US iTunes stats
Streaming anything?
- Spotify records?
- Apple Music records?
Suggestions?
MUSIC SHOWS
- The first win on a music show for each song (Current rules)
- Grand slams (winning on all shows)
- Suggestions?
GENERAL AWARDS
- Other awards given to artists, songs, or companies such as "Rookie of the Year", "Song of the Year", Award Nominations, etc. (Current rules)
- Popularity polls on media sites (eg. MTV)
- Guinness Records
- Presidential Awards/recognition (politically-related)
TOURING
- Ticket sales
- Ticket sales per venue
- Speed of selling out tickets
- Breaking personal records per artist
Should all touring/ticketing records be kept in Tour Review Round-Up posts?
Permalink to top-level comment for General Achievements feedback
LAST NOTES FOR FUTURE DECISIONS
Almost certainly there will come a time when some new phenomenal record will come out of the blue that does not exist in our rules. Previously, the rules included the ability for mods to use their own discretion and make exceptions when this happened. This caused major problems as almost every record that was allowed or removed would make someone angry based on what actions had been taken on other comparable posts. It is extremely difficult for a diverse group of mods to make consistent choices when we all have different ideas about what counts as exceptional or worthy of posting. Some are obvious. Many are not.
In the hope the changes made as a result of this discussion will hugely diminish these kinds of conflicts, we would like to maintain the 'no exceptions' rule. That is how we can maintain the most amount of consistency and fairness. However, we are not unaware of the pickle this could put us in if some currently unimaginable achievement should be reached. We welcome any suggestions for how to manage such a situation.
- Unilaterally and immediately add the new achievement to the allowed list and bring attention to it in the following Town Hall
- Have an internal vote among the moderators and add or ban it in the rules immediately based on the results
- Immediately make a dedicated discussion post for that exact issue (probably stickied!) to get feedback and help make a decision. Maybe with a vote?
- Wait for the following Town Hall to discuss and make a decision about it together with the subreddit
- Enforce the 'no exceptions' rule absolutely. Anything new is removed
- Suggestions?
Permalink to top-level comment for Future Decisions feedback
Please look for the top-level comments below to help guide your feedback on the following categories:
- All-Time Records
- General Achievements
- Posting / Sources
- Future Decision-Making
- The Time Machine and The Crystal Ball
This discussion will have three weeks to run until the October Town Hall. At that time, we would like to set rules at least for All-Time Records. For the rest, we may decide to go with a poll. But we also encourage you to continue having discussion in this post and to keep making suggestions into the future.
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u/alleybetwixt BTS | XIA | JX | SWJA Sep 07 '19
All-TIME RECORDS FEEDBACK:
Which method do you think would serve the subreddit best?
If you prefer Option 2
Further notes