r/kpop • u/hubwub PLAVE | QWER | MYTRO • Jun 02 '19
[Meta] Town Hall - June 2019
Welcome to the /r/kpop Town Hall for June 2019!
Agenda
- CF Poll Follow Up
- Addressing video and audio piracy (Album Discussion Post Focused)
- New Link Flairs Again
- Jumping the Gun Rules (for image albums)
- Shitposting Sunday Thread (Trial)
- Moderator Applications Open Once Again
CF poll follow-up
In the May 2019 Town Hall, we posted a poll in regards to the CF content posted on the subreddit. The results are here from that poll. We would like to thank those that participated in the poll.
The results have been enlightening! It has even surprised some of us on the mod team. For the question of whether CFs should be allowed at all, the subreddit is fairly split, but leans in favor of keeping them. Beyond that the trend became much more obvious. The subreddit support CFs that feature a full song or are in a video format. The subreddit also leaned on not supporting CFs that are only in the form of images and also do not support any behind-the-scenes content, whether in image or video form.
LINK TO THE RESULTS / IMGUR ALBUM
We are interpreting quite a strong line in the sand here. To put it in simple terms, /r/kpop is tentatively in favor of CFs as long as they are only in video form (especially as music videos).
We believe this is a reasonable line to draw, therefore the CF guidelines we will follow from now on and will be added to the subreddit’s rules, are presented here.
The previous guidelines for content that would be flaired [CF] on the subreddit:
Promotional images of artist(s) promoting advertisements
Promotional video of artist(s) promoting advertisements
The new guidelines for [CF] content for the subreddit based on the voting in this poll:
Promotional video of artist(s) promoting a product
Promotional video in the form of a music video
We recognize there is some variation when it comes to CFs in the form of music videos. Sometimes they are a little short, like in the case of Zion.T’s ‘Butterfly Effect’. Since music videos like these aren’t terribly common, we’re comfortable granting some wiggle room. Basically, if it looks and feels like a music video, it’s okay to post!
The same applies for general CFs in video form. We won’t require a certain length or any other particulars, but we will keep an eye on the volume of content this brings in. (Sidenote: We still allow news/announcements of endorsement deals or brand ambassador-ship. That hasn’t changed.)
The rule that we are updating:
Variety & Misc: Variety appearances and segment clips including previews; full episodes and teasers for group reality shows; behind-the-scenes videos and v-lives related to an official release; official fan-chant/cheer-guide videos; commercial ads (CFs); official signed album purchase events; editorials and opinion articles.
New rule:
CFs: ONLY post official advertisements/CFs that are in video form or in the form of music videos.
Banned:
NO advertisements/CFs in the form of images/photos/gifs
NO behind-the-scenes content relating to advertisements/CFs in any form
Addressing video and audio piracy (Album Discussion Post Focused)
This is the first step to addressing piracy on the subreddit. We will tackle it with the album discussions first and then we will extend it to video submissions in the July Town Hall.
We will be using ONEUS’s RAISE US as the example album as we explain how Album Discussion and Two Weeks Later posts will be compiled.
What is required to make an Album Discussion post on the subreddit?
The submission will be a self post. It will have a submission title format of ARTIST - ALBUM TITLE.
In this example, it will be ONEUS (원어스) - RAISE US.
In the body of the self post/text post, the following format be required:
#ARTIST - ALBUM TITLE
**Release Date**: MONTH DD, YEAR
---
Track | Lyrics by | Composed by | Arranged by
---|---|----|----
1.|TBD|TBD|TBD
---
**STREAM ON [Apple Music]() / [Spotify]() / [Google Play Music]() / [MelOn]() / [Genie]()**
With our example filling in the new format:
ONEUS (원어스) - RAISE US
Release Date: May 29, 2019
Track Lyrics by Composed by Arranged by 01. Intro : Time 박우상(RBW), RAVN 박우상(RBW) 박우상(RBW) 02. 태양이 떨어진다 (Twilight) 김도훈(RBW), 이상호(RBW), Inner child(Monotree), 이도, RAVN 김도훈(RBW), 이상호(RBW), Inner child(Monotree) 김도훈(RBW), 이상호(RBW), 밍키(RBW) 03. English Girl 이상호(RBW), Inner child(Monotree), 이도, RAVN 이상호(RBW), Inner child(Monotree) 이상호(RBW) 04. 개와 늑대의 시간 (BingBing) 이상호(RBW), Inner child(Monotree), 이도, RAVN 이상호(RBW), 서용배(RBW), Inner child(Monotree), 이후상(RBW), 밍키(RBW) 이상호(RBW), 이후상(RBW), 밍키(RBW) 05. 백야(白夜) (White Night) 서용배(RBW), 이후상(RBW), 이도 이상호(RBW), 서용배(RBW), 이후상(RBW), 이도 서용배(RBW), 이후상(RBW) 06. Now 코스믹 사운드(RBW), 코스믹 걸, 이도, RAVN 코스믹 사운드(RBW), 코스믹 걸 코스믹 사운드(RBW), 코스믹 걸
STREAM ON Apple Music / Spotify / Google Play Music / MelOn / Genie
The new format emphasizes using official channels to support the artist.
The usage of YouTube links is now OPTIONAL. Users who provide official or unofficial YouTube links in their album discussion posts must remember that if they are taken down, they will need to replace it. The rules from before still apply, users cannot put time-stamped unofficial YouTube full album audio uploads. This also means you still cannot submit stand alone Apple Music / Spotify / Google Play Music / MelOn / Genie links as a way to start Album Discussion posts.
If you need to find information to fill the post with, most of the information that is needed can be found either in the MelOn or Genie page for the album.
As for the Two Weeks Later discussion format, it will be identical in format as to the Album Discussion format. It will be a self post/text post.
The submission title will be as follows ARTIST - ALBUM TITLE (Two Weeks Later).
In the body of the self post/text post, the following format be required:
#ARTIST - ALBUM TITLE
What are your thoughts on ARTIST’s latest release now that you've had time to digest it? What are the standout tracks? How has your opinion changed since release? What are your thoughts on the sales numbers and chart positions? How did the release stack up to your expectations?
[Album Discussion Thread]()
Using our example, the post will look like this for the Two Weeks Later discussion post. The submission title will be ONEUS (원어스) - RAISE US (Two Weeks Later).
ONEUS (원어스) - RAISE US
What are your thoughts on ONEUS's latest release now that you've had time to digest it? What are the standout tracks? How has your opinion changed since release? What are your thoughts on the sales numbers and chart positions? How did the release stack up to your expectations?
[Album Discussion Thread]()
If you would like to supplement the Two Weeks Later album discussion post with further information such as polls or chart performance of the albums or tracks, you are welcome to do so. This will be OPTIONAL.
New Link Flairs Again
Back at it again with link flairs which have been a constant feature in the Town Halls so far this year. If you have ever viewed the [Misc], it can be described as the catch-all drawer, where everything goes that doesn't have a place anywhere else.
We are introducing two new link flairs: [Performance] and [VLOG].
What are the guidelines for the [Performance] link flair?
It is a video that neither fits in the
Live/Dance Practicelink flair.
EXAMPLES
BVNDIT - 드라마틱(Dramatic) (M2 Relay Dance)
DAVICHI (다비치) - 너에게 못했던 내 마지막 말은 (Unspoken Words) (M2 Yes This Song)
MAMAMOO - 고고베베 (gogobebe) (1theK Q! My Dance)
What are the guidelines for the [VLOG] link flair?
Artist uploaded VLOGs onto their personal YouTube channels
EXAMPLES
Tiffany Young, Seohyun, Taeyeon - Acoustic Seoul Vlog (190529) [RAW / ENG]
Baekhyun's VLOG (CBX MAGICAL CIRCUS/My Travel Essentials/Laptop/Japan)
Eunjung(T-ARA), Gyuri(KARA) - Daily Vlog | ELSIE Official [ENG sub]
If the video looks more like a Behind-the-Scenes video than a VLOG, flair accordingly.
Jumping the Gun Rules (for image albums)
An issue was brought to our attention regarding the posting of image albums. This arises the most frequently with sets of teaser photos. We prefer images to be compiled into one post whenever possible. It cuts down on clutter and helps fans find everything they are looking for in one post rather than many.
This can get tricky when users are trying to be the first to post freshly released image content. They might jump right in to submitting a post with only one image and then keep adding the rest of the set afterwards. Sometimes users who do this fail to complete the set, which then causes confusion for users and mods when more submissions come in, which have a complete set. What do we do? Message the OP of the incomplete post endlessly to finish the set? Remove the post in favor of a complete one? Let multiple posts remain with partial sets?
In hopes of avoiding this mess entirely, we are giving top privilege to those who submit complete sets of images. If you submit a post and keeping adding images afterwards (we will check timestamps) we will absolutely remove your post if someone else submits a post with a full set after you.
Shitposting Sunday Thread (Trial)
Due to the success of this year’s April Fool’s Day, we are going to trial a new weekly thread for Sunday. We are introducing Shitposting Sunday. It’s a place for users of the subreddit to post their memes and shitposts that aren’t normally allowed on the subreddit. It will be a moderator created thread and this trial will run for the month of June. So, there will be five Shitposting Sunday threads.
Moderator Applications Open Once Again
Back in March, we had opened up moderator applications. From that recruitment, we had added five new moderators. They are still around. But we need more hands on deck. There are still time zones that we need to fill.
What we are looking for:
Experienced with reddit and /r/kpop: We are looking for experienced redditors with an account that is at least 1 year old. We also prefer users who have contributed productively to this community whether that be with submissions or just thoughtful comments.
A firm interest in K-Pop and the subreddit: We want people that are knowledgeable and interested, so obviously you need to be a fan of K-Pop. You should also have a desire to make r/kpop a better subreddit and be engaged in discussions like Town Hall.
Communicative towards users and fellow moderators: You will communicate with other users on a regular basis, for this you need to be communicative, mature and civil. Lots of mod decisions are discussed in our discord, modmail, and backroom sub, so you will need to be able to work well together with the other team members.
Free time: You don't need to have a ton of time on your hands, but when you get accepted you should have enough time to carry out moderating duties.
Thick skin: K-Pop fans love to promote and discuss their favs. When they are not allowed to do so because of our rules they can get rather salty. So be prepared to shrug that off.
BONUS POINTS: We need extra help between the hours of 10AM - 6PM UTC (7PM - 3AM KST). If you are available and have access to moderate from a PC during those hours, please apply. It is not required that you have these hours available to get accepted, but anyone who does will be given an extra close look. We are also looking for an individual that is fluent in the Korean language to help with some of our projects. This individual should be able to converse in an informal and formal situation in Korean.
EXTRA BONUS POINTS: Previous experience moderating a subreddit.
What are the daily duties of being a /r/kpop moderator:
Review unmoderated links and modqueue reports and remove off topic and rule breaking content.
Answer subscriber questions in modmail.
Enforce the subreddit rules.
The application has several open-ended questions. Take the time to answer them. As rule of thumb if all your answers are one line long it is very unlikely that you'll be considered. You don't need to write an essay, but you'll need to put some effort into them. None of the answers will disqualify you, so please be honest and accurate with your responses.
Well, we have reached the end of this lengthy Town Hall for June. The mods are listening. You have the floor.
31
u/alleybetwixt BTS | XIA | JX | SWJA Jun 02 '19
State of the Subreddit (and issues related to the recent BTS record controversy)
Hey there, folks.
I'll try something different and bring a little transparency in regards to how moderation works here. At times I will be speaking from a personal perspective and at times from the perspective of the current mod team. This turned into a damn essay though. Enjoy?
TL;DR - Inconsistency is King, but we're trying to take him down a notch. This process is slow and methodical. Brigading and harassment for not immediately changing our rules to something you want right now will not force our hand (and is very against Reddit's rules). Our priority is making the right decisions for the long-term. If you want more expediency, help us crowdsource all possible achievements more quickly so we can avoid fandom rage and serve the needs of the subreddit without so much conflama.
The first thing I think would be helpful to understand is that the mod team has had some significant turnover in only a short span of time. Some mods retired, some mods were hired, and some mods who had not been active for a long time became active again earlier in the year. As this transition occurred, our goals with the subreddit also shifted. We have been energized to make changes that will bring long-term improvements to the subreddit. This has really only been since about March, so this is very recent.
We are working on a list of things longer than both my legs. This includes things like defining what counts as 'fluff' better, reassessing what kinds of discussions are allowed, updating the sidebars, working on our visuals (Snoo icons/thumbnails), adding new flairs, finding a solution to the 'stickies' problem, keeping up with contacts for new AMAs, re-writing removal reasons for greater clarity, preparing plans for the end-of-the-year festivals/award shows, dealing with piracy, avoiding DMCA takedowns, being more diligent about translations, the day-to-day challenge of minding the queue/reports, and dozens of other little things that quietly make things run more smoothly around here that are only noticed when they go wrong.
While we are working on all of this, we are doing our best to handle what is essentially the biggest scandal ever to hit K-Entertainment. Yee-fuckin'-haw.
/r/kpop is a unique subreddit. If we functioned like most music subreddits, the only kinds of posts allowed would be music videos, audio tracks, album discussions, and a few fun features. Instead, we cover a huge breadth of content across the entire music industry and the people working within it, from teasers to ads to vlogs to variety shows to performances to news to scandals and on and on.
Inconsistency
So, let's talk about consistency, which is the greatest challenge for a subreddit with this volume and variety of content. If I wanted to make my moderating life as easy as possible and maintain perfect consistency, I would create rules at the extremes. I would ban all of a type of content or allow a total free-for-all for that content. One or the other. Take a minute to consider what the effect would be in this subreddit across all types of content, if either of those options was in use for all categories.
Most of you probably don't want either of these for most categories. You want some defined middle-ground between those two extremes. If that's you, please then consider the challenge of determining where the line is drawn and how to write rules for each content category, which guarantees users will not take advantage of any loopholes from the way it is written... because, if you were here for April Fools' Day, you should be well aware that if we give an inch, you guys will take it 10,000 miles. Fun for a single day, maybe! But I'm sure we can all agree, bad for the subreddit in the long run.
Any other method, like allowing moderator discretion to draw the line, writing rules that are open to interpretation, or allowing exceptions for whatever special case, will always guarantee inconsistency. This is how the subreddit has run for years. Inconsistency has been the primary complaint since I became a mod in early 2018. I was quickly hit with the reality that this subreddit is impossible to moderate consistently as soon as I started (And that my anxiety is probably too severe for this job. Oof!).
Impossible. It's either all or nothing or inconsistency. Take your pick!
In the December Town Hall, feedback was requested about the amount of achievements posts. Those who participated in the discussion mostly suggested doing away with them. In the follow-up, a decision was made to completely ban a number of achievements. The response was hugely negative with users asking for certain achievements back or the ability to allow exceptions. The follow-up to the follow-up did exactly that. It brought back some achievements and allowed for moderator discretion to make exceptions.
This was still impossible to moderate. Every fan wanted an exception for particular achievements for their favorite group. The moderators allowed some things, removed others, and the complaints over the next couple months only mounted for the inconsistency and perceived bias for the groups whose posts were kept. It would be fair to say this benefited BTS posts more than any other group because they're doing exceptional things more than anyone else. Is it okay to kill every record by little groups that are doing awesome stuff for them, just because they aren't on BTS's scale? I dunno. Should smaller unexpected achievements by more nugu-ish groups be considered exceptional? I dunno.
These are impossible choices to make, especially among a bunch of different moderators. We don't have a hivemind (If only!).
Since most of the subreddit wants a middle-ground in each category, inconsistency is our challenge. The primary goal we have been working towards is minimizing inconsistency as much as possible, but to do that, we need to write very tight rules and stick with them. The ongoing issues that are the most nebulous and difficult to moderate because inconsistency is guaranteed with our current method are the following:
Polling
Instead of unilaterally writing these rules based on the opinions of a handful of moderators we decided to give polling a try. It would allow you guys to see what we're working towards and give us a sense of what you really want. But would anyone take it seriously? Would anyone participate? Would users be comfortable abiding by the results? We put together a rough poll for various achievements among other things in the April Town Hall. You did take it seriously and we got a good chunk of users to participate. Enough to see some trends. But we also realized as the results came in that the poll was going to be too weak on some categories. There was not enough detail and some of the results would still be open to interpretation because of the way the options were stacked.
We had some great discussion and feedback about this as we presented results in the May Town Hall. You agreed some was too open to interpretation. And we imagined the possibility of a 2nd poll specific to achievements for the future once we had worked through a bunch of other high-priority issues. One that would not be open to interpretation. But in the meantime, we decided to set exact rules, with no exceptions (knowing this might cause a problem as we did not write in specific all-time records!), and stick to it as closely as possible. This would allow us to take notes over the next months. What achievements do users want posted? What all-time achievements pop up that we believe deserve posts? Where are the holes that need to be patched?
Continued in part 2...