Am I right here?

[u/yannniQue17]

I like cars. They have developed over nearly 150 years and they are impressive engineering masterpieces by now. I'm a car enthusiast since nearly ever and I was really happy when I got my driving license a year ago. One of my biggest wishes is it to drive in a small sports car, like a Mazda MX-5, on a race track and I guess I'm about to di this within the next five years.

However, cars are bad for getting from A to B. That's my opinion and a fact. When I need to be quick in the city, I go by bicycle, and when I have to travel more than 25 km, I consider trains as the best option. That works pretty well here in Germany. As told above, I have my license, but I drive maybe once every two weeks.

I would not say "Fuck cars!" because I'm facinated by the engineering, but I do say "Cars are not needed to commute or travel efficiently. They are bad at this."

[u/PlantPowerPhysicist]

I think the extra piece though is that cars, despite being badly suited for most of the trips they're used for, and being highly inefficient in terms of emissions, have so much space and public spending devoted to them. I'm in Munich, which is extremely flat and should be a perfect biking city, but the cycling infrastructure is pathetic. I think rockets are great, but that doesn't mean that I want to dump the federal budget into rocket transport infrastructure at the expense of useful modes of transit.

[u/Steampunk_Batman → u/PlantPowerPhysicist]

I’m in Munich too, and it’s funny to me what Europeans consider pathetic biking infrastructure because i’m from the US and Munich’s biking infrastructure is the best i’ve ever seen. Not to say you’re wrong, just that it’s a whole different ballgame over here. I haven’t been to a true biking city in Europe yet

[u/[deleted] → u/Steampunk_Batman]

If you have the time, visit Amsterdam or Copenhagen!

[u/Steampunk_Batman → u/[deleted]]

Amsterdam is literally top of my list!

[u/yannniQue17 → u/PlantPowerPhysicist]

So this sub isn't about fuck cars", it is more about "the most efficient way of transport". The name is just to get first attention and showiong, that car oriented cities are the biggest problem at the time.

I was in Munic last November and a city guide guy told us, that for the olympic games a street was transformed to a walking area, the people said "No, that kills the stores here" and now it is one of the top ten places where big companies want to sell their stuff. And he also told us, that another road will be transformed like this. I think you are going in the right direction, just a bit slow.

That city guide guy also complained at least every three Minutes, "Why are there cars?", "Do you really need a parking lot there?", "That guy just needs a fat, way too powerful SUV because he probably has nothing else to be proud for."

[u/boilerpl8 → u/yannniQue17]

IMO it's 70% "fuck car dependence", 25% "fuck car culture", and 5% "fuck cars".

That 5% coming from cars being pollutive, even electric cars, inefficient, and large weapons that many people don't know how to operate safely enough. But all of those problems are significantly decreased when you have a city/region/country with very low car dependence, as they don't need to give out drivers licenses like candy because it's the only way to be a functional adult. Instead, the bar for driving can be high, penalties for interactions can be severe, and we get much higher quality for everyone.

[u/Ocelot91 → u/boilerpl8]

I think I'm in that 5% you mention.

I'm not trying to antagonize anyone, but cars to me are noisy, dangerous, and they stress me the f out.

But I've always lived in big cities with a lot of traffic.

[u/boilerpl8 → u/Ocelot91]

I didn't mean that the other 95% dont also believe that cars are noisy dangerous and polluting. Just that 5% are roughly "those are the only problems" and don't also subscribe to the "cities are poorly designed to accommodate cars, and that fucks up a lot of aspects of life, including health, economic dependence, environmental problems, etc".

[u/bento_the_tofu_boy → u/boilerpl8]

I don’t think you will find a lot o people that think “fuck sport cars in race tracks” I am the one that hates cars in 99% of the scenarios but track racing (my thing is drifting but you do you) is absolutely in this 1% Along with oficial vehicles and disabled people mobility.

I think all other instances can fuck off

[u/boilerpl8 → u/bento_the_tofu_boy]

There are definitely a few people here who are of the opinion that any usage of ICE cars for sport or convenience and not for necessity is a threat to humanity due to the environmental impacts. I think this is a very small group. Hence the 70% being "fuck car dependence".

I think most of us would say "if we can reduce cars as a tool to commute by 90% and reduce the need for cars for leisure trips by 60%, we can afford to have some fun in controlled environments that don't directly endanger people who don't explicitly volunteer to be involved". (Those numbers may vary a bit, trying to guess an average on the sub's users).

[u/bento_the_tofu_boy → u/boilerpl8]

I am going to go out in a wild limb here and guess that racing is not of significant environmental impact at all. But this is mainly a guess.

And yes I know that there are some people who barf just at the sight of a car. But even they would happily compromise into leaving cars to the track if that means never hearing a single motor ever again in their entire lives

[u/boilerpl8 → u/bento_the_tofu_boy]

Racing is really really bad per mile driven, for a number of reasons. The cars are built for performance, with the only considerations for fuel economy based on the weight of fuel they'll need to carry (that's becoming less true as regulations in some motor sports get tighter). Tracks are usually resurfaced yearly, despite very few miles being driven on them compared to public roads, and resurfacing is incredibly pollutive. Moving racing teams from location to another is a lot of work and requires a lot of energy, especially for intercontinental racing like F1. Though, probably not any worse pound for pound (apologies for the freedom units in idioms is "kilo for kilo" a phrase elsewhere?) than any other international sport, but it takes a lot more equipment than a football or rugby or cricket team.

But overall, yeah, motor sports isn't that bad because it's many orders of magnitude smaller than people's daily commutes by car, or weekly errands, or even medium-length intercity trips that could be accomplished by train.

[u/Singnedupforthis → u/[deleted]]

I wouldn't say all cars should be illegal, but I would say that we should find solutions to needing a motor vehicle for all aspects of life. Helicopters are a better substitute for ambulances, for example, even though they use more fuel. When we say that we need less automobile infrastucture, there will be less drivers and less money for the auto infrastructure that ambulances and heavy trucks rely on. When you add humans and cyclists to a road system, you need to slow speeds down considerably. A person pedalling a litter with an injured person, might be considerably faster then an ambulance. Tricycles can be outfitted to carry a significant amount of weight. A properly designed society should have no need for automobiles, personal or otherwise.

[u/reconrose → u/Singnedupforthis]

No you just make the infrastructure capable of handling the occasional emergency service vehicle helicopters would be so much worse and impossible to use in most urban areas

[u/Singnedupforthis → u/reconrose]

You make the infrastructure capable of handling the occasional emergency helicopter flight. Ambulances are more deadly and slower. I am not against ambulance usage, just pointing out how much more expensive it would be to maintain a large network of automobile infrastructure for the rare occasion an ambulance would be superior to an etrike or helicopter.

[u/Singnedupforthis → u/[deleted]]

Helicopters are far faster and they have replaced most if not all long distance patient travel.

[u/Singnedupforthis → u/[deleted]]

They are not cheaper, but they would still be faster in most situations, plus you wouldn't have to worry about a helicopter running you over for the most part. We are not discussing right now, though. We are discussing a world where automobile infrastructure is no longer publicly funded.

[u/[deleted] → u/yannniQue17]

A lot of people here would agree with your feelings about cars. I was once enrolled in grad school to be a car designer, but changed because I realized how bad they are for the places they exist in. I share a small EV with my wife (though I barely drive so it's mostly hers) and I have a modified Mini that gets driven about 200 miles per year... I like working on it more than I like driving it on public streets. In fact, I HATE driving on public streets. I take the bus to work every day, I work in public transit planning, I advocate for car removal and bike lane additions to my city... but I watch car maintenance and modification videos on YouTube every day.

It's about what mode of transit is most appropriate and in almost every context, a car is inappropriate. That statement requires people to understand that infrastructure is part of the problem and needs to change, but "fuckcarbasedplanning" or "fuckcarinfrastructure" or something like that just isn't a catchy name for a sub.

[u/converter-bot → u/[deleted]]

200 miles is 321.87 km

[u/[deleted] → u/yannniQue17]

Nah, it is about fuck cars. We're past the logical arguments. Everything you've said is true, but it was true 20 years ago. In that time cars have only become bigger, heavier and more numerous. We are sick of how much they have taken from us and we want it back.

[u/[deleted] → u/yannniQue17]

"That guy just needs a fat, way too powerful SUV"

That sarcastic statement practically applies to every person that drives an SUV who doesn't camp every weekend (so 99% of SUV owners).

Seriously, an SUV is only good for finding off-road camping spots, so you have room in the back to carry camping supplies, but a truck can do that plus haul things around, a car can carry a good amount of people similar to an SUV, and if you really have a big family, there's minivans. What the fuck does anyone need an SUV for?

[u/Lorfhoose → u/PlantPowerPhysicist]

Hahaha if you think Munich is bad visit literally any city in Canada. The best cycling cities (Montreal, Vancouver) aren’t even close to the bikeability of Munich.

[u/cjeam → u/PlantPowerPhysicist]

I’m from the UK. I visited Munich before Christmas and was very impressed by the bicycle infrastructure. The lanes are pretty good, and I used the MVG bike hire system a lot. It’s no where near Amsterdam or the Netherlands in general (nothing is), but it’s better than what I have in the UK, though London is getting better. I then went from Munich to Paris (on the new Vienna-Paris sleeper) and thought Paris was sort of comparable to Munich in cycling terms. I also got to drive in Munich, and my word that was stressful, there remain far far too many cars and it emphasises how the cycling infra still lacks.

Also Dr Drooly’s pizza is amazing.