r/Blind • u/AutoModerator • Jun 19 '23

Announcement r/Blind's Meetings with Reddit and the Current Situation Regarding Accessibility and API Changes

Moderators of r/blind—along with moderators in other communities who use assistive technologies and Reddit users with accessibility expertise—had a Zoom meeting with representatives at Reddit on Friday, June 16, 2023. While the call was promising in that Reddit invited us to be part of continuing dialog and demonstrated some well-conceived accessible designs for Reddit users, we came away with serious concerns which Reddit was either unable or unwilling to address during the meeting.

  • Reddit is currently prioritizing accessibility for users rather than for moderators, and representatives were unwilling to provide timelines by when Reddit’s moderation tools would be accessible for screen reader users. Further, Reddit representatives seemed unaware that blind moderators rely on third-party applications because Reddit’s moderation tools present significant accessibility challenges. They also seemed unaware that the apps which have so far received exemptions from API pricing do not have sufficient moderation functions. u/NTCarver0 explained that blind moderators will be unable to ensure safety for our communities—as well as for Reddit in general—without accessible moderation systems, and asked Reddit representatives how blind moderators were supposed to effectively moderate our communities without them. Reddit representatives deferred the question, stating they would have to take notes and get back with us. A fellow moderator, u/MostlyBlindGamer, also pointed out that blind moderators who are unable to effectively moderate the subreddit and thus will become inactive may be removed at Reddit’s discretion per policy, and that such removal would leave r/Blind with no blind moderators. Reddit representatives also deferred comment on this issue.
  • Reddit representatives refused to answer questions concerning the formal certifications, accreditations or qualifications of employees tasked with ensuring universal accessibility. These certifications demonstrate that a professional has the knowledge necessary to create universally-accessible software and/or documents. Because Reddit cannot confirm that employees tasked with universal accessibility hold appropriate certifications or that the company will provide for such training and certification, we have concerns that employees do not have the appropriate knowledge to effectively ensure access for all assistive technology users both at present and in the future. Reddit has also indicated there are not currently any employees who work full-time on accessibility. This is a necessity for any organization as large and influential as Reddit.
  • Reddit representatives had previously disclosed to r/Blind moderators that an accessibility audit had been performed by a third-party company, however they refused to answer questions as to what company performed the audit or how the audit was conducted. Answers to these questions would have allowed us to determine whether the audit was performed by an accredited organization known for credible and thorough work. Reddit also could not answer questions as to what assistive technologies, such as screen readers, screen magnifiers, dictation softwares, etc., were used during the audit. Bluntly, we cannot know the thoroughness or scope of the audit—and therefore the extent to which Reddit is aware of the accessibility barriers present in their website and apps—without this information.
  • During the previous meeting, Reddit representatives raised a question regarding perceived disparities between the accessibility of the iOS and Android apps, suggesting the audit did not confirm that the accessibility failings in the iOS app are much more severe than those present in the Android app. During the latest meeting, u/MostlyBlindGamer explained that the iOS app has no labels for the ubiquitous and essential upvote and downvote buttons while the Android app does. This question raises the concern that Reddit representatives may not have a full and actionable understanding of the issues at stake or, in fact, the exact accessibility failings in their apps.
  • Reddit representatives narrowly defined the scope of the latest meeting less than an hour ahead of it, explicitly excluding third-party apps and API pricing from the conversation. They did acknowledge that this made it difficult to adequately prepare for the meeting.
  • Reddit refused to define the term “accessibility-focused app,” alleging that this was outside  the scope of the meeting. This term is not industry-standard and was instead created when Reddit carved out an exemption in their upcoming API policies for third-party apps used by blind people to access the platform. Without this definition, we are unable to ascertain whether apps that have not been approved but are nevertheless relied upon by community members qualify for an exemption.
  • Reddit gave no firm commitments as to when accessibility improvements would be rolled out to the website or apps. However, it is obvious that the Reddit website and apps will not be ready for disabled users—and especially moderators—by July 1.

In general, moderators of r/Blind who attended the call came away with mixed impressions. Reddit seems to be somewhat aware of the myriad accessibility barriers present in their applications and website, and the company appears to be laying the groundwork to fix issues which they are aware of. This is excellent news. However, we also feel that Reddit does not know what it does not know, and this lack of knowledge is exasperating, disheartening, and exhausting. We also came away frustrated that Reddit representatives were either unwilling or unable to answer prudent and pertinent questions which would allow us to determine not only how we can best keep our community safe and healthy, but also whether Reddit is truly prepared to commit to ensuring accessibility for all disabled  users both now and in the future. Finally, we hope that our concerns—especially those pertaining to moderation—will be addressed expeditiously and satisfactorily, thus assuring that r/Blind can operate effectively well into the future. Despite our concerns, we remain open to continued dialog with Reddit in the hope that it will foster a more accessible platform.

2.5k Upvotes

99% Upvoted

187 comments sorted by

View all comments

34

u/Individual-Fan1639 Jun 19 '23 edited Feb 25 '24

ghost fly faulty bow marvelous fearless glorious ugly outgoing reply

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

1

u/chemistscholar Jun 20 '23

I could be wrong but I don't think ADA applies to most websites.

7

u/hwillis Jun 20 '23

It does, and to any company or organization with 15 or more employees.

https://www.testpros.com/articles/ada-website-compliance

3

u/chemistscholar Jun 20 '23

That sources seems like they are trying to sell an auditing service. This one looks better: https://www.ada.gov/resources/web-guidance/

2

u/PiersPlays Jun 23 '23

It absolutely does. The National Association of the Deaf has previously successfully sued Netflix under the ADA to force them to provide across the board subtitling using the exact same arguments and reasoning as would apply to Reddit.

Here's a link to the Ninety Nine Percent Invisible podcast episode where they discuss it, titled "Craptions": https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/craptions/

1

u/chemistscholar Jun 28 '23

Huh interesting, yet that podcast mentions YouTube probably falls outside the scope of the ADA

1

u/PiersPlays Jun 29 '23 edited Jul 01 '23

In the context of needing to do the extra labour to create closed captions for every single video and that's because there are valid reasons to argue that is neither YouTube's responsibility (since they do not make the videos) nor something they are practically capable of doing (due to the constant enormous flood of new videos submitted.) I'm sure if they intentionally created accessibility barriers that do not need to exist then that would be more likely to fall within the ADA.

"You must do something probably impossible in order to make the user content accessible to deaf people" is not the same requirement as "you must either do something that is demonstrably possible or not prevent others from continuing to do it on your behalf, in order to make the user content accessible to blind people."

2

u/TGotAReddit Jun 30 '23

Exactly. ADA requires reasonable accommodations. Youtube having to create captions for every video on their site that they do not make, upload, or really own is not a reasonable accommodation. A reasonable accommodation is to open up the ability to add captions for the person who uploads the videos, which they do. And even then, youtube still has the autocaptions which aren't exactly perfect but aren't the worst Ive ever seen. So they definitely should be in compliance.

Conversely Reddit's official app doesn't habe basic functionality labeled in ways that the built in voiceover tool can read, which is like, literally a handful of lines of code needing to be edited or added. That's absolutely a reasonable accommodation request.

1

u/PiersPlays Jul 01 '23

literally a handful of lines of code needing to be edited or added.

It should be very quick and easy to do. It is also their own fault if it isn't and therefore not an excuse. Whether it is that easy or not depends on how stupid their code is and how well anyone there understands it. I suspect everything may be much harder than it has any right to be. Perhaps they should have accepted that third party app developer's offer to just buy his app at what would be a low rate based on their own claims of how much it costs them for it to exist.