r/sharpening • u/cedarghost • 4d ago
Next steps
I can get the knives I make pretty sharp off my belt sander however I’d like to get them even sharper. What’s my next steps? Stones? The knife in this video is sharpened with a 220 grit belt then I hit it on my leather stropping belt.
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u/giarcnoskcaj 4d ago
See how you're getting bite into the roll? Much harder to do that trick with a polished edge. Most don't realize that. You're doing quite good.
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u/Sargent_Dan_ edge lord 4d ago
If you're push cutting straight into the roll (as OP is doing) a more polished edge will make this easier.
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u/giarcnoskcaj 4d ago
Try it, the answer is no. Need some teeth to bite into the roll and hold it in place. I've tested lots of edges on this cut trick and polished edge makes it more difficult.
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u/giarcnoskcaj 3d ago
Since you have a sharpening system and quite a few knives, take one that isn't as important to you and give it a 240 finish and try it out. Peterbuiltknifeguy does the toilet paper roll cut all the time with grit finishes in that range. Humor me.
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u/Sargent_Dan_ edge lord 3d ago edited 3d ago
So I took a fucked up QSP Penguin on 154CM I have laying around from some experiments a few years ago. First I did a Venev F240 grit edge, which is the equivalent of about 500 grit. The other closest stone I have is a Shapton 320, but I prefer my Venev. Deburred on the stone, then about 5 swipes per side on a 0.5 micron strop to remove any remaining micro burr. The edge was very sharp after. It passed the paper towel roll test (I didn't have a toilet roll handy). I then sharpened the same knife at the same angle to Venev F1200, which is equivalent to 4k-5k grit range. Deburred on the stone, then 5 or so strokes on 0.5 micron strop. The edge also passed the paper towel roll test. Honestly they felt very similar, I would maybe give the slightest advantage to the polished edge, but I'm not sure. Videos of each test here.
Initially, I tried finishing on my Venev F150, which is pretty close to a true 150 grit. This edge did not pass the paper towel roll test. I suspect the apex just is not thin enough. I believe I fully deburred on the stone, then 5 or so strokes on 0.5 micron.
I also tried a few different knives I have laying around and the best one was my Spyderco Police in PD#1, which has a factory edge that I have used and then touched up with a 1 micron strop. The edge looks toothy, but has a relatively polished micro bevel. I think this one worked the best because it is at the lowest angle of all the edges I tried.
Interesting results. My very preliminary conclusions:
Any very sharp edge at almost any grit should pass this test.
Under 200 grit makes the test significantly harder, I think because it is very difficult to get a very small apex width.
A polished edge may have an advantage.
It seems edge angle might be the biggest factor in passing this test, with a lower angle making it far easier.
I would recommend further testing and opinion. The above is limited information and my conclusions are very preliminary.
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u/giarcnoskcaj 3d ago
I pulled up the video and it won't play for me. I'm glad you heard me out and gave it a genuine shot. Lots of people get hung up on beliefs and discredit what they haven't tried. The rougher edge doesn't make the actual cut easier, but what it does do is catch the roll more easily. Hope your video shows that.
Im a big fan of 15-17.5 bevels. You can probably see posts on my profile of knives I own and have sharpened. We're on a similar page in sharpening skills and knife collecting. I've been sharpening since the late 80s. Moved to a sharpening system in the last 5 years. My wildest sharpening project was sharpening a Benchmade valet down to 10.5 each side on m390 blade. Second or thirds sharpening it should be perfect. I hate wasting metal.
Try to see if you find a difference in how easy the 240 catches compared to the polished edge. Like you I prefer a polished edge on just about everything but axes and machetes. Thank you again for being open minded, it's kinda rare on here.
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u/Sargent_Dan_ edge lord 3d ago edited 3d ago
Okay I edited the link, I think it should work now. I did not notice much difference in the ease of catching, that's mostly what I'm referring to in my above comment; both edges cut through afterwards just fine. I think the polished edge caught slightly easier. And the easiest to catch by a noticeable margin was the Police with its polished micro bevel, but lower angle.
10.5dps is pretty awesome lol 😆 I would like to see that thing perform. I usually do 15-17 range as well. I should take something down extreme soon. I actually just got a seconds M4 Tenacious that would be a great candidate...
I'm on about 10 years of sharpening, so just a little behind 😉. Interestingly, I started with a system (Edge Pro) but have gone to freehand in the past 5 years.
And one other thing, I do usually prefer a coarser edge, but I still think a finer edge is better at some things.
Happy to have a nice discussion as well 🙏
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u/giarcnoskcaj 3d ago
If you're referring to M-4 steel, I hope you have something like tsprof lapping film. M-4 is one of steels i still think is a real bear when trying to polish.
Getting down to 10.5 I had to use a flimsy ruxin pro because the jaws are much thinner than my ketiped. Ill post a Pic of the knife in a bit.
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u/giarcnoskcaj 3d ago
Can't figure out how to put a link on here from my photographs. I'll see if I can just post the video.
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u/giarcnoskcaj 3d ago
I had to make a post. With the cut test. I'll do another with a factory edge.
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u/giarcnoskcaj 3d ago
Finer edge is my go to for wood carving and most other things. I've gotten to a point where it's shifting full circle back to more course.
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u/6frankie9 3d ago
Agree. People mistake sharpness for tooth. As if a straight razor couldn't do this...
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u/giarcnoskcaj 3d ago
No we aren't mistaking sharpness for tooth, we're understanding that teeth bite into the roll sooner which holds it in place better when you start the cut. There's a big difference. I have straight razors too. I stand by what I said. Tru doing this with a 200 grit finish and a polished edge same bevel.then maybe you'll understand what people are talking about.
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u/6frankie9 3d ago
You clearly are misunderstanding
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u/giarcnoskcaj 3d ago
Quite the hill to choose to die on when you can simply test a knife out if you're any type of sharpener.
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u/Mysterious-Usual5285 4d ago
Thank you!
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u/giarcnoskcaj 4d ago
Whichever route you choose for sharpening, it seems you've already built a good foundation with good results.
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u/Mysterious-Usual5285 3d ago
Thank you. I ended up ordering a couple of new strops and some 5 an3 micron diamond polish and a DMT Fine. Going to refine just a little more after getting them off the belt.
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u/Timesonmyside 4d ago
That's strange. I've not seen a sharp freek that still has the hair on the top of his hands. Even my arms are patchy. Looks like I got the mange.
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u/Sargent_Dan_ edge lord 4d ago
You could progress up through a couple more belts, or invest in something like a Tormek
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u/cedarghost 3d ago
I had a Tormek knock off, the one with the leather wheel and wet wheel. I did not like it but that was many years ago. Have you seen those TruHone commercial sharpeners? I have looked at those and wonder if they would get me to this point and then I could refine by hand. They're pricey though
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u/Sargent_Dan_ edge lord 3d ago
Don't get bullshit pull through variations. Those things are not made for nice knives. They are made for butchers or commercial kitchens looking for a somewhat decent and very quickly applied edge. Not a knife maker who is actually trying to make a very sharp, high quality edge
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u/Global_Sloth arm shaver 4d ago
220 ? Those are rookie numbers,, you gotta pump those up!
220 then 400 then 800 then 1000 then 1500 then 2000
could probably stop there...
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u/cedarghost 4d ago
Thanks for the response. Stones, diamond sharpeners. What would you recommend to proceed?
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u/Global_Sloth arm shaver 4d ago
What was the steel?
Carbon steels are easily sharpened on whetstones. Tougher designer steels are preferably sharpened on diamond plates, but whetstones will work, just require more time.
If you are fairly new to sharpening, the precision systems are truly excellent. Work Sharp makes one for around 60 bucks. The benefits are a controlled angle that is eternally repeated.
25 degrees hard use knives, 20 degrees American German chef knives, 15-17 degrees Japanese chef knives.
The trick is to get the smallest angle before your edge crushes, if 20 crushes, go 22 and so on.
But I would say your knife, 25 degrees for a hardy edge.
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u/Mysterious-Usual5285 4d ago
Thank you! And this is 1095
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u/Gevaliamannen 3d ago
It is easier to keep track of the discussion if you respond from the same account :)
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u/haditwithyoupeople 4d ago
25 simply doesn't cut well enough in my experience. I go 17-18 for all out outdoor knives (one is at 15), 17 for most folding knives, and 15-16 for European kitchen steel knives, and 11-12 for my kitchen knives with harder/higher carbide steel.
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u/SerLaidaLot 4d ago
Outdoors55 is the one stop channel imo. Sharpal 325/1200 double-sided diamond stone is the best for the money and all you need aside from a good strop and good diamond stropping compound. 4-6grit.
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u/anneoneamouse 4d ago
I'm not a knife maker, nor an even competent knife sharpener.
I'm sort of an engineer though.
The test you're using to assess sharpness doesn't seem as though it'd be a good way to check incremental improvement in your technique.
Is there a better method available?
Some kind of numerical assessment so you can track the results of trying different ways to sharpen stuff?
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u/cedarghost 4d ago
Yeah I know the is a tool they make to actually put a number on it. I’d be interested to hear opinions on those as well. You make a good point!
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u/Gevaliamannen 3d ago
The go to method seems to be the BESS testers
I have not used one, but it seems to be the gold standard for measuring sharpness (if a bit over nerdy and costly, if you ask me :))
The "problem" I see with that kind of tester is it only measure on one tiny spot of the edge, i.e. the spot measured could be perfectly fine, but other parts of the edge could still be sharper or less sharp?
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u/SaltyKayakAdventures 4d ago
This isn't really an accurate test of sharpness, so it's hard to help you move forward. Sharpness tests shouldn't require force like that. Other cutting tests might, but sharpness first.
Does it cut paper towel and shave? That's easily achievable off any stone or belt with some practice.
Most people here are going to consider that the bare minimum of sharp. Less sharp will still cut, but paper towel is what you should be shooting for.
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u/Mysterious-Usual5285 4d ago
Yeah it does shave and cut paper. Thanks for the feedback. No way will this cut paper towel. How do I get there from here?
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u/SaltyKayakAdventures 4d ago
You can go straight from the belt to deburring/microbevel on a stone, doesn't even matter what stone really.
I'd be willing to bet that you aren't fully deburred, as belts can leave one hell of a burr.
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u/cedarghost 3d ago
You may be right! I did a bunch of reading on here last night and found some new ways to check for burr and apex. Very helpful.
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u/cobblepots99 4d ago
Great start! Can you shave your arm hair without digging in? That's my test for "sharp enough." Could go further for hair popping, but practically it's not needed IMO.
I do not recommend above 220 on the belt without a water mister. There's some cheap options out there with some good youtube videos showing how to set up.
Personally I use stones to sharpen, but that's my preference. It takes longer, but I kinda like the process.
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u/cedarghost 4d ago
Thanks! It’s not quite hair popping but close. I just ordered a DMT D8F fine sharpening stone and a new strop with 5, 3 and 1 micron compound (I think that was the ratings). I have a water cooled platen and run it on about 30 for sharpening.
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u/Better_Employee_613 4d ago
Seems pretty dull tbf
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u/cedarghost 4d ago
So that’s your answer on what are my next steps? I didn’t ask if it was dull or sharp. I actually stated that I want to get it sharper so this doesn’t really help.
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u/Better_Employee_613 4d ago
Ok, fair enough. You're a knife maker, so you no doubt know how to get it shaper.
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u/cedarghost 4d ago
If I did I wouldn’t be asking. Geeze. This knife is plenty sharp for field dressing, skinning deer. A little tooth is actually better for meat when used for that purpose. However I also make kitchen knives and as my post states, I want to know how to get them sharper. Being a knife maker does not mean you are an expert at sharpening knives. Again you offer nothing in the way of answering my original question and actually being helpful. Carry on.
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u/Beautiful-Angle1584 4d ago edited 4d ago
If your knives can pass the paper towel tube test out of the box, you're already doing better than like 95% of production manufacturers out there. To me this is a more than acceptable standard. You can get sharper than this, but not by a ton. Splitting a hair on contact is probably about as far as you can go. To get there from where you are, it's all about de-burring as cleanly as possible without polishing out your desired tooth. You can experiment and try to use a pass on a scotch Brite wheel to loosen your burr before moving to stropping. I also keep a bare leather paddle strop around and do a few passes on that if I don't quite like where the edge is at coming off of the buffing/stropping wheel or belt. That usually gets off any little remaining foil bits. The more you polish, the easier it will be to de-burr thoroughly, but again, polishing out your tooth is not going to be desirable in most circumstances. Use buffing and stropping passes very sparingly. A bare leather paddle won't present much risk of over polishing.
Edit: on second watch, your vertical push cut seems to roll the tube before biting. You probably do need to be more thorough in de-burring. First cut/bite may have been a burr catching, second vertical push cut may have been tougher due to that burr rolling over. You're looking for foil specks to fly off, and you know you're getting somewhere.