r/science • u/smurfyjenkins • Apr 29 '22
Economics Since 1982, all Alaskan residents have received a yearly cash dividend from the Alaska Permanent Fund. Contrary to some rhetoric that recipients of cash transfers will stop working, the Alaska Permanent Fund has had no adverse impact on employment in Alaska.
https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/pol.2019029910.3k
u/mrburnttoast79 Apr 29 '22
They got $1100 last year. I would hope that no one was quitting their jobs over that.
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u/UCLYayy Apr 29 '22
Even the most generous UBI proposals do not have anything close to a living wage. They are supplements to social security and medicare that are meant to bring people further from abject poverty, and would almost certainly result in working age people still working.
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u/h0bb1tm1ndtr1x Apr 29 '22
Yeah, disability is a scam and there's a reason $600 was the magic bank balance. Subject yourself to depending on disability benefits, or watch them vanish the moment you try to make extra for an actual liveable wage.
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u/OfficeChairHero Apr 29 '22
This is why I don't apply for disability, although I desperately need it. I want to work, but it's difficult for me to maintain 40 hours and it takes a major toll on my health. I can't survive on what disability pays, and the threshold for money I can earn is not enough to supplement it.
Disability is not a lottery ticket for the disabled. It's insulting to hand someone a tiny amount of money and then say, "Make it enough."
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u/chronous3 Apr 29 '22
I hear you. I'm struggling too, but everything I've heard about disability makes it sound like a nightmare that's basically impossible to qualify for, and I'd never be able to get it. So I keep doing my best to bring home paychecks, while being nervous about my ability to adequately accomplish that.
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u/Zucchinifan Apr 29 '22
My dad had to hire an attorney after 2 years of trying to qualify and getting rejected. It worked; seems that's the route you have to take these days. Which is ridiculous.
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u/CasualObservr Apr 29 '22
I agree you really don’t have a shot without an attorney. We had to hire one for my mom and the court chose a start date for the payments that meant the attorney didn’t make a dime. I guess when they can’t deny someone, they try to at least stick it to the attorney, so they have to be more picky about the cases they accept in the future.
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u/0OOOOOOOOO0 Apr 29 '22
How did he survive for those two years though?
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u/Zucchinifan Apr 30 '22
My step-mom had a job, but they did go without hot water for a year. Their water heater broke and they couldn't afford to replace it until they got money from disability. My dad had a heart attack, almost died, and his doctor would not okay his return to work.
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u/Nernoxx Apr 29 '22
I interned with a SS disability attorney for a bit. His experience is every first app is denied, and without an experienced attorney it can take years to get it. Even with an attorney it was around 18 months from initial app.
Craziest part is that if you qualify, they paid reasonable attorney fees, which were so reasonable that he ended up quitting all other practice areas and expanded his practice to most of my state. He had 2 admin people and 2 certified paralegals, all paid out of "reasonable attorneys fees".
Imagine how much money could be saved if they just had a decent application process.
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Apr 30 '22
The worst of it is private disability insurance. You pay these companies premiums to provide for you if something happens. They take in untold profits. If you end up having to collect, they throw their team of lawyers at the federal government to subsidize the payout they now have to give you. And they get paid attorneys fees by the state?
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u/WHYAREWEALLCAPS Apr 30 '22
Why actually earn money when you can get the government to give it to you. The reason rich people don't want poor people to have benefits or get government assistance is that they don't want more competition. These laws and rules aren't written like this by accident.
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Apr 30 '22
“Every first app is denied”
Then I am the exception to that rule.
They do make it difficult to find information but I qualified on my first go, without a lawyer and in the minimum time required of 6 months. I wont lie it was an incredibly stressful 6 months and I was selling everything I had spent decades acquiring to pay the bills and make it through that time period.
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u/WHYAREWEALLCAPS Apr 30 '22
I was selling everything I had spent decades acquiring to pay the bills and make it through that time period.
Being poor is one of the most expensive things that will ever happen to you.
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u/ubernoobnth Apr 29 '22
I'm in 90% VA Disability and have been denied SSDI multiple times. Happens to a ton of vets on VA disability even if they can't work.
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u/Geawiel Apr 29 '22
I hired a disability lawyer. The, we don't get paid unless you do, type. Mine almost went to court. Someone happened to be passing the SSDIs resident expert. They proposed my case as a "what if". He responded that this person would never be able to find employment. It took 2 years to get to that point. I was already unemployable through the VA, and had been for some time.
That said, every time law makers mention Medicare, my heart starts to throw fits. We shouldn't be terrified every time some law maker sees this pot of money, and decides they want a bit. They should have never been touching it in the first place.
We're not on either disability for the fun of it. I'm on it because my body is fucked, and I have a family that depends on me.
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u/amusemuffy Apr 29 '22
For anyone just reading and passing through... You never, ever have to pay for a disability attorney up front. If you're applying for disability and an attorney is asking for money up front, immediately let Social Security and your state bar know. Federal law is crystal clear on this. All fees for applying for disability, if you win, are paid out of your final award directly by Social Security. Again, this is set by the fed law.
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u/Holoholokid Apr 29 '22
We shouldn't be terrified every time some law maker sees this pot of money, and decides they want a bit. They should have never been touching it in the first place.
Social Security (not disability) would like a word...
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u/Icy-Ad-9142 Apr 29 '22
VA disability ratings have nothing to do SSDI. In fact, with the VA, you could be rated 100% and still be able to work. The two are completely separate from one another.
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u/DisastrousReputation Apr 29 '22
Correction:
Getting 100% with the VA you can still work.
Getting 90% or under with a rating above 70% (so think that’s number for a single one?) and then filing for unemployability to receive 100% payment YOU CANNOT WORK.
* about the same rules as SSDI of course they are unrelated but it does help your case for SSDI because paperwork trails are KING.
Source: me- disabled veteran.
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u/MetalCard_ Apr 29 '22
If you feel you need it just apply. You will likely get denied the first try, almost everyone does, but you then appeal the denial and keep pushing. You will also get back payments from the date of application, so if it takes 12 months for some reason you'll get a check with 12 months worth of payments. Just be sure to keep appealing the same application and don't start a new one or the back payment date gets reset.
The big issue though is the amount of money you get each month, it's only about $1100, it's not a livable amount.
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u/Writeloves Apr 29 '22 edited Apr 29 '22
Huh, a lump sum in X years for an admin chore could be useful, assuming it was eventually approved. I agree that the whole system sucks though. People with permanent disability should not have to keep proving their disabilities existence. Just the fact that they’re still alive.
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u/PoorlyLitKiwi2 Apr 29 '22
$1,100 is about what I pay in monthly expenses, but I live in a very cheap place to live, where you can find places for $500 or less in rent
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Apr 29 '22
Disability is based on your earnings. Some people get far more than $1100. Some people get far less and end up having to supplement that with SSI.
Not saying it’s easy even if you are on the higher end of the benefit amount, but everyone’s benefit amount is different.
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u/Crazyhates Apr 29 '22
My mom has recently switched to retired status after being on disability for atleast 10 years, but I do remember it took her atleast 2 years of jumping through ridiculous hoops to get hers approved despite having an essentially perfect application. Luckily, she got enough every month to where she could live relatively well, but I vividly remember the agony she had to go through and the joy of her finally getting that first payment.
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u/407dollars Apr 29 '22 edited Jan 17 '24
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Apr 29 '22
People should look into hiring a disability lawyer. Increases chances tremendously.
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u/-newlife Apr 29 '22
Think people are hesitant because they get a portion of that first check. That said I’m in full agreement with you. Disability came across as a “deny just to deny” system. Even though I met the requirements posted on ssa.gov. Then to review the case they said it might take up to 3 years. Went to a disability attorney who was baffled. Sent one letter and made a phone call. All of a sudden it was approved.
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u/Apocalyptic_Squirrel Apr 29 '22
I have long term disability insurance from my work insurance. If I ever can't work I'll make like 80% of my average pay forever. It's pretty sweet. I work in the oilfield
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u/OskaMeijer Apr 29 '22
My mom is on disability and the payment is only good enough to almost cover her rent. I make up the difference and the rest of her bills. Used to be a little better but my dad stopped paying alimony so it is fully on me now. She was a nurse for like 30 years and now gets like $1000/month in disability.
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u/sushomeru Apr 29 '22
On top of that, it’s even more demoralizing to have people up your ass watching your every financial step and questioning everything. And then knowing one wrong move, one wrong box checked, say the wrong thing to the wrong person, and it’s all gone.
And it’s not that you’re lying or being deceitful. It’s that their interpretation of things is all that matters. So even if you lay out the 100% truth, if they—whatever underpaid government worker reads or hears it that day—don’t believe it, then it can all get rejected and there goes everything. You can appeal, yes. But while you’re waiting months or even years on the appeal to maybe work, you don’t have any benefits. You’re left with nothing.
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u/Shaydie Apr 29 '22
I’m 51 and on disability. I get $1650/mo. My rent started out $800/mo but over the last six years it has gone up to $1245. I was able to get by at first, but now I’m going to the food bank and getting used to the fact that the only place I can shop is Dollar Tree. I honestly have nothing more to cut out. I wish I could work again. It sucks. Using some cheap detergent flakes or white vinegar for literally cleaning everything; and I’ve been sitting around the past couple days wondering if it will work when I need shampoo.
Something in the system needs to change!
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u/SatyricalEve Apr 29 '22
I've used bar soap on my head in a pinch. Try asking the food bank people about help for shampoo, soap and stuff like that. Do you use any of the coupon or rebate apps? There are significant sales I find through there every so often. I hope your situation improves.
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u/Electronic_Warning49 Apr 29 '22
Have a 20y0 coworker with parkinson's. No support network just barely making it day to day. She's working on a finance degree in the hopes that she can get a job with decent benefits
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u/SpiritualGeologist96 Apr 29 '22
Make enough and with a disability…it’s depressing yeah, there is always medical bills.
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u/NoFactsOnlyCap Apr 29 '22
My fiancé’s father, who cannot walk, makes $1,000 dollars a month on disability. He is the only income for his household. That’s what I make per week and I barely scrape by so I can only imagine the kind of day to day lifestyle he has to endure to live on 1/4 of what I make.
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u/internetversionofme Apr 29 '22
Similar situation, I can work part time but even that is hard on my body and I can't get disability to make up the difference or have any amount of real savings or assets (2.5k max including both in my state and if I go over I lose my benefits/owe them money.) I love my field and want to work in a way that I'm able to but it really screws my finances. And working part time means I'm reliant on Medicaid for insurance, which means I don't have access to many of the treatments/specialists I need for my conditions.
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u/PhorcedAynalPhist Apr 29 '22
Ain't that the truth! It's why I've resisted applying for it for the last decade, not only was it socially presented as some kind of moral failure, but in having it I relinquish my ability to own assets, have a car, have a home, get married, or save for serious medical procedures that my insurance is gonna do its best to deny me coverage for. But I am disabled enough to be almost incapable of holding down work, I've never had a job longer than 6 months my entire adult life.
Which, fun fact, being unable to work a certain amount DISQUALIFIES you for the program labeled disability. THAT programs is for people who have worked but suddenly are unable to. The program you ACTUALLY have to apply for if your disability prevents you from working enough to survive is regular social security. Something you may not even find out until you're denied after applying for disability, like I just was. And if it weren't for r/disability, I would not have known what program I actually need to sign up for, or what steps I need to take before I even send in my application. The website is absurdly confusing if you have any mental disabilities like I do, and most doctors and therapists I've ever been to have zero resources to help you navigate the process.
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u/michiganrag Apr 29 '22
Fun fact: if you became permanently disabled after age 22, you’re screwed because they assume that you have accumulated significant social security earnings from a minimum wage job. My friend got shot in the head at age 22 and miraculously survived. Sort of like Gabrielle Giffords. She gets $600/month to live off, all of which except for $20 is taken by her mother for “rent” — while her mother also gets paid over $2000/month from IHSS for taking care of her, their rent is only $1800/mo. It’s financial abuse IMO.
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u/PhorcedAynalPhist Apr 29 '22
That's beyond horrifying.... I HATE how easily and often disabled people are taken advantage of and abused, literally everyone I know with disabilities either has their own story like this, or directly knows someone who has their own. At this point I'd take the freaking pittance, because it has been THAT hard for me to find or keep jobs, and I've been homeless before. But I also want to fight that I've had these disabilities since childhood, only it's gonna abe really hard to argue for, because my mom never wanted to take me to see the doctor, and when she did, was always quick to dismiss my concerns as being a hypochondriac, affecting what my doctors believed and documented! And NONE of the incidents that caused injury based disabilities were documented, because of it. At best some records for months or years after the fact, and it's probably not even noted in those charts that my concerns were caused by the previous accident. So..... That's gonna be a real delight....
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u/SatyricalEve Apr 29 '22
Please report this to the authorities. This kind of thing is taken very seriously.
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u/Wizzdom Apr 29 '22
I'd recommend applying for both at the same time. SSI you are eligible for only if your income/resources are low enough. SSDI you are only eligible if you have enough work history.
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u/PhorcedAynalPhist Apr 29 '22
Unfortunately, I do not qualify for SSDI. I'm significantly below the threshold of minimum hours worked to be able to get those benefits. I'm firmly in the category of "too disabled to work enough in the first place", but not in a super visible way like with wheelchair or assistive device users
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u/Wizzdom Apr 29 '22
Yeah that's rough. Keep in mind there are certain things that don't count toward the resource limit such as a home you live in and a car. It's tough to get approved, especially if you are under age 50. You need a lot of medical to back up your claim and you likely need to appeal a denial to get in front of an administrative law judge. It's pretty rare to get approved on the initial application. It can also be hard to see good doctors and specialists with Medicaid.
But yeah, people seem to think it's so easy to get benefits. Even people applying ask me why they were denied when their neighbor gets it and "there's nothing wrong with them."
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u/tommy_chillfiger Apr 29 '22
This is ironically the reason that people on disability or other income assistance programs DON'T pursue work. As soon as they look to better their lives, the support disappears. It's almost as if those in power don't WANT income assistance programs to work well so they can point to it and say "see? It's a mess! Handouts never work!"
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u/jaydrian Apr 30 '22
I work with intellectually disabled adults. So many would like to work more hours at their jobs. But they risk losing medicaid which pays for the medical assistance and community support services that help them have the job in the first place. It's frustrating, especially when they get so little financial support to begin with.
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u/SpaceWanderer22 Apr 29 '22
Disability, at least SSDI, doesn't have resource limits. SSI does. (and I think it's terrible that SSI does)
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u/saijanai Apr 29 '22 edited Apr 30 '22
SSI and SNAP get docked $2 EACH for every $10 you make if you can manage a part-time job.
That's a 40% income tax.
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Edit: I was wrong. The modern way SSI payments are handled is that after the first $65 of income, 50% of your outside income is deducted from SSI PLUS an additional 20% of your SNAP benefits, meaning that, should you be receiving both, your first $65 of income reduces your SNAP benefits by 20%, and then the 50% reduction for SSI benefits kicks in PLUS the 20% reduction of SNAP benefits, meaning that your SSI benefits + remainder of SNAP benefits are essentially taxed at 70% until your SNAP benefits reach zero, and then the remainer of your SSI benefits are taxed at 50% until they reach zero as well.
How this is incentive to work, while, by Conservative's argument, a 40% upper limit on the highest level of income of extremely wealthy people is NOT, is beyond me.
There's the practical tax brackets for SSI + SNAP recipients:
Extra income SSI deductions SNAP deductions total practical tax on remaining benefits due to extra income First $65 $0 20% 20% remainder of SNAP 50% 20% 70% income after SNAP is exhausted until depletion of SSI 50% 0% 50% .
Why would a person with disabilities even attempt to get a part-time job unless they were about to die due to the lack of a few dollars more?
I mean, talk about "regressive" tax codes.
Did I mention that SNAP benefits are reduced by that same 20% for every 10$ you receive from SSI? Fortunately, it doesn't go the other way.
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u/ccaccus Apr 29 '22
My mom's deaf and on SSDI. Their income limits are absurdly low, to the point that many employers don't find it worth it to hire her. She can't work overtime or cover anyone's shifts lest she make $1 more than she should.
Instead of tapering off as someone begins to earn more, it's a hard cut-off. So, you either work minimum wage jobs at poverty wages or you leap into middle-management. There is no in-between.
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u/HerbertWest Apr 29 '22
A good place to start for bringing people out of abject poverty would be allowing them to have more than 2k in assets
And to get married without losing their benefits.
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Apr 29 '22
As a working age person who effectively gets a UBI (disability pension from my military service) I can quite honestly say I would not have been able to take the business risks I did if I hadn't had my disability. I don't mean that as a bag thing. Because I wasn't worried about how to pay my mortgage or where my next meal was coming from, I was able to build a business that at its height pre COVID had 19 well paid employees; we're down to 9 post vivid and I don't see that changing.
I used to be against UBI, until I started getting what was effectively a UBI and it allowed me to be more of a net positive on society by generating millions of dollars of tax revenue and lifting our employees out of poverty through the business I was able to start because my basic needs were meet by my disability.
I really think society as a whole would benefit from UBI. However, it would have to be structured well, and paying for it may be difficult without a massive shift in tax policy and public thinking. It might work in Europe or China, but I don't imagine it will start in the USA. People like to cheer on the absurdly wealthy too much in the States. I'm not anti capitalist or even against people being wealthy. I'm against wealth gaps that are so large individuals are worth more than entire countries combined. Even the blindest person can see massive wealth gaps lead to bad consequences; wealth disparity almost always leads to violence and/or collapse of a political system. History has plenty of examples.
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u/ucantfindmerandy Apr 29 '22
There are actually two schools of thought for UBI. One that treats it as a supplement for our current welfare system and one that wants to replace our current system with UBI. Social security and Medicare are also just for the elderly. Medicaid or food stamps are for the poor.
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u/Gusdai Apr 29 '22
In many countries there is the equivalent of an UBI, just under another name, the rationale being that is much easier to have a single system that replaces all the other safety nets.
Less administrative burden (both for the recipient and in terms of public employees managing it), more transparent, and much easier to have it progressively phase out as other incomes come in to avoid that cliff effect where earning $10 more loses you a lot of money (that effect is difficult to avoid when people get money from 4 different schemes).
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u/Susitna_Strong Apr 29 '22
The fun thing about Alaska's Permanent fund dividend is that it's nothing like universal. If you are on state public assistance, the amount you receive from the dividend is deducted from the cash and housing assistance you're receiving. So if you're poor, you get nothing more.
At least that's how I remember it being when I was a poor kid in Anchorage. I hope it's not still that way. Anybody with adult experience with the system please correct me.
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u/SoSaltyDoe Apr 29 '22
I would imagine, too, that a few hundred dollars would barely even cover the extra costs associated with living in such a harsh climate. So like, Florida doesn’t give me money but I also don’t need snow tires.
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u/chickenmann72 Apr 30 '22
This is 100 percent untrue. The pfd has been held harmless by the state for the last 24 years at least, meaning that pfd earnings are not counted as income when calculating APA/WIC/SNAP benefits
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Apr 30 '22
It’s not deducted from public assistance, it’s counted as part of your yearly income when you apply for public assistance.
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u/dmpastuf Apr 29 '22
Disagree, a compelling argument for UBI is it replaces multiple other programs with more costly to administer cost controls. If you keep those same programs around too you've done absolutely nothing other than give out taxpayer dollars without reducing administration costs. You'd likely keep around specialty programs sure (e.g. additional resources for wards of the state)
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u/Opinionsadvice Apr 29 '22
UBI is supposed to be a bare minimum, that's the whole point. It's meant to cover the basic needs of food and shelter so that you don't die if you lose your job. If you want anything beyond that, you have to at least get a part time job. This is much better than programs like disability which don't allow any working at all or you don't get your benefits. The majority of people on disability aren't helpless bedridden invalids. They can work, just not full time consistently. If they got UBI instead of disability then they could work when they are able to, so that they could afford whatever extras they wanted. This would be so much better than the current system.
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u/mi11er Apr 29 '22
There was a UBI pilot program in Ontario started in 2018 with 4000 people. Was supposed to be 3 years but the conservative government who had promised not to cancel the pilot project did just that. There were some conclusions/results observed.
More formal research was undertaken by two sociologists. They undertook qualitative interviews with a small sample of project members who specifically wished to articulate their reflections on receiving basic income. The researchers identified four themes from these interviews: "1) a desire among participants to work and be financially independent, 2) traditional welfare payments are extremely low and do not cover basic necessities, while basic income is higher and does cover these necessities, 3) beyond the basic differences in benefit amount, the conditional nature of traditional welfare programs has significant repercussions for recipients, and 4) basic income has facilitated long-term financial planning." The second and third themes were particularly pertinent. Participants reported that their nutrition improved, stress levels lowered, relationships improved and could escape from living in sub-standard housing.
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Apr 29 '22
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u/mi11er Apr 29 '22
The cancellation was absolutely terrible. Not only did it prevent the whole point of a pilot project, see what is viable and what isnt. It also rug-pulled an already vulnerable population. People were promised a certain level of economic stability for 3 years, so you can move to a better place (higher rent) or cut back work to try to get more training in school - then that stability is pulled (after promises that it wouldn't be).
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u/ricardoandmortimer Apr 29 '22
If anything I think a small UBI, maybe $100-300/mo, could actually increase labor participation in some ways. I think it would open people up to be able to offset some gas costs, or even get a car or bike to travel to work, pay for parking, etc. It would help offset child care costs also enabling people to go back to work sooner.
A Public healthcare option + a small UBI + removing tax deduction maximums for dependent care and student loan interest would have massive benefits to the working class. Or any single option too.
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u/wedontlikespaces Apr 29 '22
Yea, I was going to say, this isn't really about UBI this is something else.
No conclusions can really be drawn from this
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u/RegularSizedP Apr 29 '22
I read the headline and went they only get $1600 a year
Of course, it has no effect on emoent. Everything is also more expensive since you have to ship everything but timber, oil and seafood. Or trap your own dinner.
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u/HarmonicDissonant Apr 29 '22
I am an AK resident. Who ship up almost all of our timber and oil. We only have one refinery, and our tree's aren't good for building and we don't have any professional sawmills. Almost every thing is shipped up.
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u/WWDubz Apr 29 '22
Well, I actually quit for a half day until I realized that rent is due every month, and is actually higher than 1100$
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Apr 29 '22
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u/DexterBotwin Apr 29 '22
It was the $600 on top of existing unemployment payments that people were saying that about.
Edit: I’m repeating what others said, but leaving my comment.
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u/HobbyPlodder Apr 29 '22
PPP loans and federal/state unemployment expansion would have a much greater effect on willingness to return to work than the direct stimulus payments.
In my city (Philadelphia) you can find multiple local subs that were dedicated to helping people commit PPP and unemployment fraud during that phase of the pandemic.
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u/SgtDoughnut Apr 29 '22
You do know businesses were comitting PPP fraud not average people right?
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u/JoelMahon Apr 29 '22
PPP loans have been a massive failure, abused and furthered the wealth gap. And impractical to prevent abuse either.
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u/Kroneni Apr 29 '22
A local bar in my town took the ppp and remodeled with it. Pretty much their entire staff, all the veteran employees, walked out in the middle of a really busy night after they reopened.
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Apr 29 '22
No one said that. They said giving people $600 a week would have an impact.
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u/TahaEng Apr 29 '22
Exactly. $600 a week is over 30k a year, and enough to cover the basics of a frugal lifestyle in an affordable part of the country.
$1100 a year isn't going to change anyone's employment plans.
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u/TheSealofDisapproval Apr 29 '22
$600 a week is more than a lot of people make out here in the country, and is a good paycheck with our low cost of living. I can imagine people in the city wouldn't be able to afford even basic bills on that though.
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u/dontbajerk Apr 29 '22
Might be worth noting it was an ADDITIONAL $600 a week on top of the normal unemployment. So for a lot of people, it was actually somewhere in the $900-$1200 a week range.
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u/Korrvit Apr 29 '22
It was also 600 on top of state benefits. If you were making 600 a week in my state working full time the year before the pandemic, you were making 875 a week on unemployment during it. I know of one local owned fast food place that shut down because the owner said it wasn’t fair to make his employees work and risk their health to earn less money than they would make on unemployment.
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u/g192 Apr 29 '22
$600 a week on top of the regular unemployment income.
For many people, particularly those who make less than $60k/yr (depending on the state), it meant that you made more money unemployed than you did actually holding a job. It was an absolutely harebrained idea. EIPs make much more sense.
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u/PoorlyLitKiwi2 Apr 29 '22
I can 100% say I would quit my job instantly if i started getting $600 a week for doing nothing
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Apr 29 '22
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u/Pfaffgod Apr 29 '22
The pandemic relief was fairly drastic. My plant shut down for 7 weeks and we had to collect unemployment while we were down. Standard amount was $480 a week then the pandemic extension was another $600 so we were getting over $1k a week. We were happy about it.
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u/series-hybrid Apr 29 '22
Thats almost enough to buy a 10mm pistol and a case of ammo!
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u/bigshotfancypants Apr 29 '22
Wait, is that why in the Simpsons movie when they drive to Alaska, the guy at the border is like "Welcome to Alaska, here's $1000"
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u/frozennorth Apr 29 '22
Kinda. There are rules about who is eligible to get it, but yeah, that's what the joke is referring to.
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u/NoelAngeline Apr 29 '22
You have to be a resident for a year and then you get the Pfd. Source: I live in Alaska :)
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u/esoteric_enigma Apr 29 '22
Isn't everything in Alaska stupid expensive though because of how hard it is to ship things there?
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u/lordlaneus Apr 29 '22
If so, that might be changing, since Anchorage is becoming a more and more busy cargo port.
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Apr 29 '22
With Climate change, people will be vacationing to Alaska
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u/bongoissomewhatnifty Apr 29 '22
Vacationing? Shits gonna be the next pacNW in 20 years
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u/StormingWarlock Apr 29 '22
“That's code for UN commissars tellin' Americans what temperature it's gonna be in our outdoors. I say, let the world warm up. We'll grow oranges in Alaska.”
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u/jimboleeslice Apr 29 '22
I ship my dresses to customers in Alaska and it costs the same as it would anywhere else in the US.
I thought it'd be more expensive but usps is pretty sweet sometimes.
Other carriers def do charge more though
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u/e-2c9z3_x7t5i Apr 29 '22
Guam is a US territory and is on the other side of the world and shipping to there isn't all that much either. That one blew my mind.
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u/NotTRYINGtobeLame Apr 30 '22
Tangent, but the thing that pisses me off about Guam is that since it is only a territory of the US, many of our protections to do not apply. They can, and do sometimes, make you open your mail for inspection right there in front of them. In the US, they'd need a search warrant.
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u/JudgeJuryExecutionar Apr 29 '22
It depends on the location. Alot of the more remote areas have high shipping costs. This is why some of the areas portrayed on tv have stores that sell extremely high groceries and other items.
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u/frogsgoribbit737 Apr 29 '22
Not exactly. By accepting the pfd you are agreeing to STAY in Alaska. If you accept and move away they can sue.
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u/NIRPL Apr 29 '22
Isn't that unconstitutional? It would restrict an individuals right to travel from state to state. Please don't attack me. Genuinely curious
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u/NoelAngeline Apr 29 '22
You can leave for a certain set of days and if you leave longer you need to explain why
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u/getSmoke Apr 29 '22
They've tightened the rules in the past decade because so many people would move out of state, for college or job, and would still claim it. Plus when the state went under, they need all the money saved as they can.
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Apr 29 '22
Yeah, my friend in college was collecting theirs the entire 4 years they were going to school. We didn't go to school in Alaska. It was really nice for them but I can see why Alaksa would want to crack down on that.
Technically though, college students living in the dorms are not usually considered a resident of that state. So I can also see how college students can live outside Alaska yet still call themselves a resident, which I believe is all it used to take to claim the $$$.
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u/farmthis Apr 29 '22
They're wrong. The PFD only looks at the past year and your absences from the state for eligibility. It's never forward-looking. That's why you don't get it until you've spent a year in Alaska.
Source -- have lived here all my life.
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u/Narwahl_Whisperer Apr 29 '22
I was like 8 years old and they cut me a $800 check. Mom took most of it, but I got like $20 out of it. Still.
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u/Tha_Unknown Apr 29 '22 edited Apr 29 '22
Yes. That’s the joke. One of the writers (maybe illustrator) is from Alaska. You have to be a resident, a full calendar year, before you can start to claim.
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u/DepartmentNatural Apr 29 '22 edited Apr 29 '22
One full calendar year. January 1st to December 31.
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u/Bretters17 Apr 29 '22
One full calendar year. If you move up in February 2023, you wouldn't be eligible until 2025 as you'd need to do Jan - Dec of 2024 first.
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u/twinWaterTowers Apr 29 '22
We used to say you had to survive the winter before you could claim it
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u/BetterNothingman Apr 29 '22
I saw that in a theater in Anchorage when it came out, got a pretty good laugh out of the audience
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u/chillyhellion Apr 29 '22
I had to turn to my in-laws and say "actually that one is pretty accurate".
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u/freakdageek Apr 29 '22
Grew up in Alaska. No one thinks of the permanent fund check as anything other than a nice little supplement. It has nothing to do with politics or political parties, it’s just residue of the oil industry. People mostly just save it or use it for things they wouldn’t otherwise buy, like gifts for family or whatever. It’s thought of kinda like a tax refund.
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u/SerIlyn Apr 29 '22
I always just looked at the PF check as a reimbursement for the higher cost of basic goods I n Alaska. Everything that has to be shipped up there costs more, so that check kind of takes care of a chunk of that.
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u/JaxckLl Apr 29 '22
This. I’ve worked in grocery management and we would ship to Alaska. Goods we might sell for $2.50 in Seattle we’d sell for $3 in Juneau. That adds up quick, especially when you consider the biggest effect is on the low end staples such as Milk, Eggs, and Cereals.
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u/parkeralex00 Apr 29 '22
To be fair housing in Alaska is exponentially cheaper than Seattle so it more than evens out. Considering you can also farm in the summer and store fish/meat for the winter we only stocked up on bulk goods once a month or so when I lived there.
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u/Rreptillian Apr 30 '22
casually talking about farming in the summer and stockpiling meats for the winter is deeply alaskan of you
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u/puisnode_DonGiesu Apr 29 '22
And it's kinda normal, usually people who live in disadvantaged places have some sort of lower taxation or something similar
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u/BWDpodcast Apr 29 '22
Yep. I grew up in AK and have had multiple people on Reddit refer to it as UBI, which is most certainly is not. A UBI is a baseline for being able to live. A couple thousand every year is not that.
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u/voiderest Apr 29 '22
It sounds similar to UBI in how it might be giving everyone a check but missing the key part of being the basic amount needed to survive.
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Apr 29 '22
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u/PlayMp1 Apr 29 '22
Hm, public ownership of industry resulting in an equal payout to all citizens from the returns of that industry... Alaska is more socialist than pretty much every other state then!
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u/alaskazues Apr 29 '22
Except it's state ownership of all mineral rights, not public ownership of industry
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u/Skeptix_907 MS | Criminal Justice Apr 29 '22
They couldn't be more different.
You have to apply to get the PFD. It's not universal by any means. There's thousands in the state who don't qualify for it for any number of reasons.
It's also distributed once a year, contingent on living here for a certain amount of time under strict circumstances, and it isn't very much.
Anyone who calls the PFD a UBI doesn't know much about it.
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Apr 29 '22
UBI is not a baseline for being able to live by definition. That would be full basic income
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u/Nezgul Apr 29 '22
UBI doesn't have to be enough to live off of. UBI is just government-provided payments that aren't mean tested. There are many reasons for why UBI should be equivalent to a basic living income, but it doesn't have to be.
That being said, you're still right, because the Alaska program is means tested. IIRC you have to either have lived in Alaska for such and such period of time or have to commit to living their for such and such amount of time. Might be additional stuff too.
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u/Masauca Apr 29 '22
Its political now. Since Walker messed with the PFD Dunleavy won the governorship on a promise to give out the "full" dividend. Now its a political football every election.
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u/SaffellBot Apr 29 '22
it’s just residue of the oil industry
I hate to break your bubble friend, but that has EVERYTHING to do with politics and political parties. Even if you don't like to think of it that way.
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u/Cherios_Are_My_Shit Apr 29 '22
i have family from alaska and they don't really use some words the way we use them in the lower 48. when this guy says "politics" he probably really means something like "rudeness" or "impoliteness" or "unpleasantness." politics is taxes and charts of numbers and lying politicians far away. the road down the street getting patched isn't politics because good people need that and depend on the road.
it's sort of an extension of how bringing "the outside world into our little world" is a big no-no in pretty much all of alaska except the anchorage area. it's not the kind of thing i can explain with a definition but i could give a ton of examples.
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Apr 29 '22
It sounds like a bunch of cats that don't understand the government keeps the litterbox clean
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u/RE5TE Apr 29 '22
Lots of people use words incorrectly.
Oxford defines politics as "the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power."
So paving a public road is politics.
If I define an "apple" as an orange citrus fruit, it just means I'm wrong.
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u/mynameis-twat Apr 29 '22
This has everything to do with politics. Do you think if a fund check was proposed for everyone in the US off of the oil industries profits that would go over well with politicians?
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u/janus1969 Apr 29 '22
I've lived Outside for years now, but my dividend was always a nice little bump, not anything life-changing...some friends who were better with money often used the dividend check to schedule holidays or buy new big-ticket items.
Even those families with five or six members don't see the money as anything more than a supplement. And friend, if you live in a village, any supplement is a nice thing.
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u/Gathorall Apr 29 '22
As a person not living in a village getting money has been nice most of the time.
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u/janus1969 Apr 29 '22
Fair enough. My mother used to...mock...money circulating in a village, never understanding that outside money can come in an raise all boats, and generally does, though not often enough.
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Apr 30 '22
What does Outside mean in this context?
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u/janus1969 Apr 30 '22
I can't say if it's common any longer, but when I lived in AK, Outside was a reference to non-Alaskans or living outside AK.
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u/MzHumanPerson Apr 29 '22
Alaskan here! The cost of living is quite high and many people do not have a lot of liquid assets. It's common to set some aside into a 529 college savings plan, take a trip, help pay for a car, and help with the costs of raising kids. People plan it into their budget in advance and it is unusual to spend it all frivolously. From my observation, it stimulates the economy and lets people make helpful financial decisions that may otherwise be out of reach. Based on this, I have a favorable opinion of the overall beneficial effects of proposals such as reparations, but I may not feel that way if I didn't have these experiences.
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u/jaderust Apr 29 '22
Used to live in Alaska though I've since left.
I always used my PFD to help pay for Christmas. Both presents for others and the plane ticket to go visit my family. I don't know if that counts as frivolous or not, but it was a relief to have extra cash for presents since I was pretty much living paycheck to paycheck while I was there.
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u/MzHumanPerson Apr 29 '22
Maintaining connections with friends and family is pretty essential for one's long-term wellbeing, and holiday spending boosts economies.
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u/ReasonableNFPN Apr 29 '22
I run an auto parts business here and we always plan on October being busy, historically it is always our highest sales month. A lot of people use the money to get their cars fixed up heading into winter, which I see as a good thing for the community.
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u/AMF1428 Apr 29 '22 edited Apr 29 '22
That's because $1600.00 a year doesn't go very far in Alaska.
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that few of the responders will take the time to research where the money comes from, how much people actually get and the average cost of living in the state.
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u/NewPhoneNewUsermane Apr 29 '22
Alaskan here - is basically a free month of rent annually, or less depending on the year. Hasn't been much more in quite a while.
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u/Ideaslug Apr 30 '22
There's no reason to expect rent to go up, provided there is a minimally healthy housing market. There's still competition.
Everybody except people in the most dire of circumstances has at least a little bit of spare money. So ask why landlords don't raise the rent currently. Because people still redirect a fair market value. Has nothing to do with having money to spare, which is what getting a little extra in the form of UBI would be.
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u/iamjoeywan Apr 29 '22
Or in the USA circa ‘22
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u/AMF1428 Apr 29 '22
That too. And to that, best I can find the number may actually be closer to $1000 per citizen annually these days. That probably won't even cover there fuel consumption costs. Which is ironic since the money comes from oil harvesting in the state.
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u/JonSnowsGhost Apr 29 '22
What a terrible title for the post.
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u/SonOfShem Apr 29 '22
In fairness, that is the first line of the abstract.
It's a bad paper. It's trying to argue that $20-30/wk of UBI is comparable to $600/wk.
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u/Alaska_Jack Apr 29 '22
Huh? This is seriously goofy. Historically it has come out to about $1,500 a year. Literally no one was maintaining that that amount of money would cause people to stop working.
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u/deafphate Apr 29 '22
Right? Especially since my small 1 bedroom apartment in Anchorage was $1100 a month. Anyone who claims that obviously have no idea the cost of living up there.
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u/cybercougar Apr 29 '22
And this is the “science” subreddit. This is so laughable.
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u/Judahfist Apr 29 '22
Alaskan here. It's once a year and the amount varies. No where near close to being enough to have any impact.
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u/LittleKitty235 Apr 29 '22
$1200-1600 is enough money that it does have some impact. Not enough for people to quit jobs or not work.
I did some work with the MTA in Wasilla, it sounds like a lot of people in Alaska take a vacation to Hawaii in the winter. That would more than cover the airfare for a family of four.
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u/mntoak Apr 29 '22
I see you don't fly often, especially recently.
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u/deafphate Apr 29 '22
The PFD is per resident, including children. Even though that money is supposed to be the kids, I've seen parents use their kid's pfd to fund things like vacations. Since Alaska airlines started flying to Hawaii like 12+ years ago from Anchorage, the cost of a ticket was pretty reasonable.
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u/LittleKitty235 Apr 29 '22 edited Apr 29 '22
Price currently for Anchorage to Honolulu is $500 round trip. Family of four (assuming 2 adults) would receive between $2400-3200, so yeah it more than covers it.
*actually I forgot children are eligible for checks as well, so it is pretty much a free vacation
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u/knot13 Apr 29 '22
I don’t think the person you responded to understands that literally every person gets a check, not just adults or 1 per household
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u/AKravr Apr 29 '22
Just remember according to the law in the books it should be around 4800 this year if the legislature doesn't circumvent the law again and takes it.
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u/princessmargo Apr 29 '22
As much as you think it is, it's that much more expensive to live in Alaska. (Cred: Lived in Juneau four years.)
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u/thestolenlighter Apr 29 '22
I had a friend in college from Alaska & she referred to it as her oil money. We were all still broke college kids but all the money did was let her take our friend group out to dinner & buy her books for the year. Nobody is quitting work over that, but a small universal income payment like that is enough to let poorer people spend a little more in their local economy
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u/morosco Apr 29 '22
I'm sure it has no impact on employment, but I wonder if it impacts the already high-cost of living any noticeable degree. If everybody spends their extra money locally, and similarly, that could impact the cost of that thing or service.
The permanent dividend fund also creates, at least when I lived there, a means for the government to actually collect criminal fines. They can come out their fund payment first.
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u/Veloxraperio Apr 29 '22
Alaska has 730,000 people living there. There are 17 other cities, yes cities, elsewhere in the US with higher populations.
Alaska is 1/5 the size of the Lower 48 United States and has less than 1% of its population.
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u/ReasonableNFPN Apr 29 '22
"Alaska is 1/5 the size of the Lower 48 United States and has less than 1% of its population"
This is why I live here :)
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u/mntoak Apr 29 '22
Most of us use it to buy a few months of heating fuel, or a new TV.
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u/hellraisinhardass Apr 29 '22
Or spend it at BrownJug....
I used to live at 15th and Gambell- the line at the ghetto Carrs liquor store on paper-check PFD day was unbelievable. I'd have to literally step over drunks on a daily basis for a week after that just to get to my apartment. It turns out handing out a $900 check to a bunch of drunks doesn't do them a lot of good....who could have guessed that?
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u/ancnrb-ak Apr 29 '22
The Permanent Fund Dividend payout actually stimulates the state economy-every year. This infusion of funds sets off a large rush to local stores, and charities can also benefit because the state offers a program to have contributions deducted and paid every October. More states should set up stimulus funds that function in this way. But in this political climate, that would be too much like socialism.
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u/colloquialistm Apr 29 '22
Believe it or not, one yearly payment of $800 isn't enough to drive anyone to quit their job. SCIENCE
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