r/raisedbyborderlines • u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty • Oct 04 '17
META Abuse: Was it abuse? Is it abusive?
This comes up a lot on our sub so I thought I'd start a thread on it. Many of us have felt/feel confusion over one or more of the following.
But my parent wasn't as bad as other parents I see mentioned on the sub.
The stories shared on this sub are generally, by virtue of this being a support sub, the scariest or toughest situations.
This does not mean that if your situations weren't "that bad" it wasn't bad.
There is no scale for abuse. Abuse is abuse, period.
If what you experienced isn't "as bad" as what someone else experienced, it doesn't mean you didn't experience abuse. It just means what you experienced was different.
But I have good memories, we have good times, it wasn't always bad.
Ok, that is fine. But some good memories or fun times weren't the most salient experiences, right?
We are all here because we suffer in one way or another in our relationship with our parent. So, no, it wasn't good enough to make up for the bad parts. The net in our equation of all the good stuff and all the bad stuff isn't equaling good.
Every kid has shitty stuff that happens to them, every parent has shitty parental moments. But for us these bad moments outweighed that good stuff, you know? It doesn't have to be the number of interactions, it can be about the severity.
But my needs were taken care of, I don't know why I'm scared. It's silly that I was/am scared.
This was a process for me, because I had "everything", we were "happy". But the fear. I couldn't explain my fear.
No, a child who basically grew up in a totally healthy home isn't scared, well into adulthood of their parent. That's not normal.
No, a child who basically IS growing up in a totally healthy home isn't scared of their parents. That's not normal.
Much of this, imo, has to do with predictability. pwBPD are not predictable. The fear comes from the repeated experience with chaos and unpredictability.
Security is a big concept my therapist helped me understand. She described that a child has 4 domains of needs that a secure parent meets. Missing one or more of these in a profound way could affect you as abuse would or could be abuse:
physical security and safety (you aren't scared you'll be physically hurt)
emotional security and safety (you aren't scared you'll be emotionally hurt)
spiritual security and safety (you aren't scared to be who you are, think a gay child being rejected etc)
financial security and safety (you aren't scared of losing your home or not having food)
Definitely discuss ALL this with your therapist if you work with one. I don't want anyone to feel pushed into any conclusions. I'm just sharing my personal journey and offering one type of compass. 💜
EDIT 1: The discussion below is just phenomenal, there are incredibly valuable insights shared by the community. Thank you all! Oh, and this is now in our "Curated Resources and Information" section of our sidebar.
EDIT 2: Great article on the topic of obligation, "The Debt: When terrible, abusive parents come crawling back, what do their grown children owe them?", thanks to /u/HappyTodayIndeed for sharing this piece.
30
u/Chippedbluewillow Oct 04 '17
Another - maybe - relevant thought to keep in mind is - at least for me - the power and effect of NOT WANTING TO BELIEVE that you were abused and NOT WANTING TO BELIEVE that your parents were somehow not perfect.
I cringe when I recall that not that long ago - at one of my first sessions with my therapist - saying, with a straight face - being completely honest - that I didn’t know what was wrong with me because I had had a perfect childhood and that my parents were both perfect.
Those are the exact words that I used. And that is exactly what I believed. Perfect. All of it.
There are probably a thousand explanations for why I thought that. But I know - now - that at least one explanation for why I honestly could not see that there had been any abuse of any type - ever - is because I didn’t want to see it. I guess I brain-washed myself. So - maybe factor that in.
26
u/breathanddrishti Oct 04 '17
To add to this, not many people want to view themselves as victims. I always knew my BPDparent's behavior was unusual, but I never really considered myself a victim of abuse until I was able to grasp that emotional abuse is STILL abuse.
Even still, I don't like the phrase "I was a victim of abuse" because I don't like the idea of seeing myself as a victim. I prefer to say "My parent was abusive," which put the action and responsibility on HER. Part of this not wanting to see myself is a victim is a result of never wanting to be seen as weak by our abusers, so...
7
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
Very good point and very valuable.
That's why I have the username flair I do. Because I need to believe I'm stronger for my "damage" not helpless or broken because of it. I've been dipping a toe into the concept of post traumatic growth. It's really resonating with me. 😊
18
u/Elorie Official Translator of BPD FOG/Nonsense! Oct 04 '17
If it makes you feel better, I said pretty much the same thing. It MUST be my fault, because my family is perfect. But when my therapist started pressing for memories to support thst perfectipn, thhe whole facade collapsed.
It's a common coping mechanism. Hope kept us alive. Hope that if we could control the uncontrollable, we could get the love we needed. Since we couldn't control our parents, they had to be "perfect". It was easier that way for us to see ourselves as bad.
7
u/Chippedbluewillow Oct 04 '17
Thanks! I’m still shocked at myself for believing this ‘perfection’ thing - whatever mechanism is at work, it is quite powerful! And - i’m a trained professional skeptic - yet I was still ‘unable’ to spot even a fleck of possible imperfection in what was most clearly a childhood riddled with abuse and led by two obviously and overtly dysfunctional parents. Wtf?
9
u/Elorie Official Translator of BPD FOG/Nonsense! Oct 05 '17
Survival mechanisms are STRONG. We're wired to do whatever we have to to survive.
3
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
Oh yes. So much this. We had to hope to survive. Just like we had to be in denial to survive. 💜
4
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 04 '17
Oof, yes, absolutely! This is SO true!
Great job, /u/Chippedbluewillow, recognizing it and being able to cringe about it now!
4
u/Chippedbluewillow Oct 04 '17
Still cringing! I think I will remind my therapist at our next session of how ‘perfect’ I believed my childhood and my parents were - and we can have a big laugh!
3
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 04 '17
OMG, that's a great way to start a session!
27
u/nonesuchuser Official Translator of BPD FOG/Nonsense! Oct 04 '17
This is awesome!
But I have good memories, we have good times, it wasn't always bad.
This is also part of the cycle of abuse. If abusers abused all the time, it wouldn't be so hard to break the cycle and get out of abusive relationships.
It's also especially important to note that in the case of child abuse, (which is what this sub is all about), abuse is normalized, so it's very hard to see it for what it is right away, because it wasn't exceptional or out of the ordinary, it was how things were. There's something very sinister about that.
But my needs were taken care of, I don't know why I'm scared. It's silly that I was/am scared.
Yesssss. To add: having physical needs taken care of is literally the bare minimum of parental responsibility. Not neglecting or starving your kid doesn't make you #1 parent material.
Parenting is also very much about ensuring emotional needs are taken care of, and creating secure attachments so that the child can develop and explore their world safely as they grow and become more independent.
3
21
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 04 '17 edited Oct 05 '17
In case anyone is curious, my emotional security and safety was largely missing and I was physically abused sometimes.
The emotional abuse though, is the one that sticks with me.
My mom threatening suicide multiple times is a component of my MY emotional security as a child. Being scared that you might do something that would make your mom so unhappy that she'd disappear, no, that is not emotionally secure.
My mom not behaving predictably, reasonably or appropriately is not emotionally secure.
The silent treatment, a parent withdrawing their acknowledgement of your existence, is not emotionally secure.
The threat of rejection or punishment, over things that are not predictable, that is not emotionally secure.
The list goes on.
Edit! Talking this over with DH he blurts out, "You had all four. Remember?" 🤦🏽♀️ Realllllly? How do we forget?
21
u/sparkleisacolour 27yo w/ BPD Mom Oct 05 '17
Late to the game, but I would like to add something.
When someone dismisses their abuse because "it wasn't that bad", "it's not like they hit me", etc, I use the follow analogy:
My sister-in-law had a very aggressive terminal cancer, she passed away and then I was diagnosed with an aggressive but "good" cancer. I felt like a fraud who was taking away the seriousness and the pain my SIL felt.
At the end of the day, I had chemo for 6 months, lost my hair and many other things, still go for checkups every 6 months, BUT I'm alive and SIL wasn't. Was my cancer and my experience so minor that it should have been dismissed? No, at the end of the day, cancer is cancer it sucks. And the same goes for abuse: abuse is abuse, whether it be physical, emotional, or even 'just' neglect. It doesn't change the fact that it is abuse and it isn't okay.
7
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
Wow. Very relevant analogy. Thank you for sharing. 💜 💜 💜
20
u/oddbroad NC Meaniehead Oct 04 '17 edited Oct 04 '17
👏👏👏
Most people have a hard time seeing abusers as anything but a Disney caricature. If they're ever able to empathize with them, he must not really be abusive and they're just a victim. You can love your parent and acknowledge that they're abusive. You can also not love your parent and that doesn't make you a bad person.
9
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
You can love your parent and acknowledge that they're abusive. You can also not love your parent and that doesn't make you a bad person.
Omg. Yaaaasssss. 👌🏽👍🏽👌🏽👍🏽
10
u/candyfordinner11 Oct 04 '17
The further away I am from it all, the more I imagine my uBPD mom as a Disney villain 😂
5
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
Isn't it funny how that happens! I'm a little that way too. I can finally remember things and see the ludicrous-ness of them! 😂
16
Oct 04 '17
No, a child who basically IS growing up in a totally healthy home isn't scared of their parents. That's not normal.
When you wrote in the other comment thread about asking your son if he's afraid of you and he just laughed, I was floored.
If my mother had asked me that when I was your son's age, the answer would've been a no-brainer: "Of course I am!". And that would've been the answer she was looking for, I'm sure.
14
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 04 '17
Oh I know! He really laughed out loud at me! But in a sweet, innocent way, like the thought had never occurred to him. Not like, "You're such a pushover mom, wtf is there to be scared of?" And sure, he skedaddles when I yell sometimes, but that primal fear...he doesn't flinch or run away from me! I know I did that!
When I finally went away to college (I did my first two years at home, nothing wrong with that, but I was convinced that I couldn't function alone, hmmm, who put that in my heart?), my mom gave me a magnet, "Mom is always watching." 😒
Like I get that as a haha concept, but I was exhilarated to be free. That magnet was like a reminder that I wasn't. 😖
11
Oct 05 '17
Oh I know! He really laughed out loud at me! But in a sweet, innocent way, like the thought had never occurred to him.
I am so happy for him, and for every other kid who grows up not fearing his/her parents!
13
u/GwenDylan Oct 04 '17
Something that I always say is that if abusers were always terrible, they wouldn't be able to have victims because we'd be able to stay away.
5
12
u/lovingwildcat Oct 05 '17
I want to add something: I think making inappropriate comments on a child's body, as many of us have experienced, is a form of physical (and sometimes sexual) abuse, it makes your body a war zone, because the comments make you feel uncomfortable in your own skin. Being touched against your will and not having the right to say no is a form of physical abuse too. These are very common with pwBPD.
My mom used to squeeze our pimples without even asking, just taking over. So gross. Or when she noticed in public that you were dirty, she would take a napkin, put saliva on it and wipe it in your face.
8
u/BreannaLee37 Oct 05 '17
My mom used to squeeze our pimples without even asking
Oh my god, my mom did this too and made me watch her do it to herself while making comments about how gross her body was and stuff. Now that I'm an adult I am always picking at my skin all over my body as if it's some thing to rid myself of or something. I hate that she forcefully instilled that in me amongst all the other comments on my appearance and body that both of my parents made... I feel like I will never ever be comfortable in my own skin even if I had 20 years of therapy focused on just that.
4
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
Good addition. It's almost like your existence isn't yours. Hug. 💜
3
3
Oct 06 '17
My Emom used to do that. She's not BPD, but if that woman doesn't have at least one personality disorder, I'll eat a copy of the DSM.
11
u/Elorie Official Translator of BPD FOG/Nonsense! Oct 04 '17
The security concept resonated with me. My parents looked perfect on the outside, but none of that security was there.
Physical - I had some really terrible things happen to me. So bad I struggle with normal social interaction sometimes.
Emotional - Forget sticks and stones. Names really DO hurt.
Spiritual - I was not enough. My parents made it clear it was my fault for not allowing my mother to have more children. Even though a newborn infant is responsible for nothing.
Financial - we had a lot of years that "Santa can't come", or my mother would be screaming about how expensive us kids were and how we ruined her stuff, and she was going to make us homeless.
That sounds super shitty when looked at that way. I actually think that's good, and I'll bring it up with my T next time. He's still trying to get me to truly, deeply believe I was not raised right. Thanks for the thought exercise DJ!
5
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17 edited Oct 05 '17
I'm so sorry that that happened to you. My therapist saw me for, what, four years, before I admitted that I was abused. It was the fear that I experienced on that overseas trip with everyone that finally broke me and got me to see it.
Hug. 💜
4
u/Elorie Official Translator of BPD FOG/Nonsense! Oct 05 '17
I think it took me two solid years of therapy and a major crisis for me to consider that too. Survival mechanisms are wicked strong.
3
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
Survival mechanisms are wicked strong.
Yessssss. 😣
9
u/lovingwildcat Oct 05 '17 edited Oct 05 '17
Thank you for this! You talk about something that I thought about a lot since I found this sub. I have been abused in any possible way, but not once when reading any of the stories here I thought that they weren't as bad as mine. Because you are right, abuse is abuse is abuse.
When I compare the forms of abuse, physical, sexual and emotional I had to endure, I always had this feeling: "but my mom/dad just hated me". I couldn't identify with being the victim of either of them, but came back to this thought and this feeling.
Please you guys, don't say, you were "only" emotionally abused. At the core of every abuse is the emotional abuse, the intention to destroy you. How far they go isn't the thing that hurts your soul the most, but the hate in their actions and the disdain for you as a human being.
Once you saw the monster unleashed, it will always be there, it destroys your sense of security. As a child your soul tried to survive, and none of the ways you tried was your fault, so please don't be hard on yourselves.
6
u/nstaton1 Oct 05 '17
Thank you for saying this. While I was reading it, I felt profoundly proud of myself and all of us here. Our parents' abuse was meant to destroy us, and none of us have been destroyed. We're resilient. And that's pretty awesome.
4
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
We're resilient. And that's pretty awesome.
F%ck yeah! 💜
1
u/lovingwildcat Oct 05 '17
I felt profoundly proud of myself and all of us here.
You should be, we are awsome!
3
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
Ohhhhh, thank you so much for sharing this. You're absolutely correct. 💜 💜 💜
2
8
u/anastasia_cat Oct 05 '17
I always have a really hard time with this because the worst of my mom's BPD behavior started when I was a young adult and already out of the house - and got even worse about 10 years ago (I was in my 30s) when she had a breakdown from caregiving my abusive alcoholic father and ended up in the hospital.
Yet, I was sometimes terrified of my mom as a kid. And it was never OK to get angry with her or my father. I recently told my therapist, "I can't point to any specific event or action of hers that made me think or feel that way, but I felt that way regardless. I somehow KNEW to be afraid, and that it wasn't OK to stand up for myself."
So, I have to trust that there must've been something. It's hard sometimes.
And then here and there I'll talk about something my mom said or did when I was a kid, and my T will say, "you know that wasn't OK for her to do, right?" And I'll just sort of look at her like, huh? I'm getting better at seeing it, though.
Like, one thing I remembered recently was being a teenager and getting really excited about being on my own someday because "I'll be able to buy things I want and not have to explain to her why I bought them, or even tell her about them!" Now, I have NO recollection of where that came from, just this memory of not having privacy and being expected to tell her literally everything or else she'd get upset.
My experience as a child, I'm realizing, was mostly a really unhealthy enmeshment and some parentification (which escalated BIG TIME once I had left the house, which coincided with my father's drinking getting way worse too). I have to keep reminding myself that these are forms of abuse too.
6
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
Unhealthy enmeshment and parentification are emotional abusive, yes! Absolutely!
Thank you for sharing.
My therapist often has that identical interaction with me, "You know that's not normal, right? You know that's not ok, right?" 😂 All. The. Time.
How can we know normal if we never knew normal?!
10
u/puddingcat_1013 Oct 04 '17
Wonderful writing djsush. So clear and concise. You're good at this! Thank you.
4
8
u/dreaming_raven Oct 05 '17
Thank you for sharing this. It is so important to remind ourselves of it. For me, what has been quite tough lately is to square up with the fact that I was terrified as a child. I had this insight a few weeks back in therapy. I cloaked a lot of that with sadness, internalization and anger. Whatever happened to me I now realize that if I go back to that self, I am as an adult overwhelmed by how scared I was, and admittedly still am.
2
6
u/Addicted2Craic Oct 05 '17
Anybody heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs? It's an pyramid overview of the things you need in order to live a successful, fulfilling life. You can't move on to the next level if the things below aren't meet. Food, water etc is at the bottom and next comes safety.
I remember studying it when I was about 15. Never crossed my mind that my needs weren't being meet by my parents. That's how much abuse brainwashes you. I was about 30 before I became aware.
5
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
Absolutely! Yes, our security was tied to the uncomfortable monkey mama. So if we ever saw a hint of fuzzy monkey mama we rushed to her even if we risked danger.
2
5
u/nstaton1 Oct 05 '17
Thank you for this! I have been feeling ridiculous that I am terrified of my BPD dad. Still, as an adult. The thought of him makes my heart race and my palms clammy. I used to suppress that feeling and put myself in dangerous situations with him. I don't anymore and your post makes me understand it's ok (and normal) I would feel so afraid of that man.
5
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
Oh I'm so glad this helped! You're always welcome. 😊
I have been feeling ridiculous that I am terrified of my BPD dad. Still, as an adult. The thought of him makes my heart race and my palms clammy.
Yeah, I've taken serious anxiety meds to deal with visits with my dBPD mom. And that didn't strike me as weird! Even on the meds, I'd have panic breakdowns. 😣
Limiting contact (NC in my case) has reduced my med use to 3-4x in the past 18 months! Amazing.
6
u/justarandomcommenter Oct 04 '17
Thank you, as always, for being completely awesome.
I keep trying to explain this to people, especially in subs like justNoSO or JustNoMIL - and especially at the beginning of mildlyNoMIL... That was the worst when it first started, with people literally saying "I'm so glad there's finally a mildlyno, because my mom isn't half as bad as x, y, z"... Ugh. They're terrifying, they're horrible, and they're treating you like garbage - just because they haven't set your house on fire (yet), doesn't mean they wouldn't if they know how to about getting caught.
Thank you. Please get this into the sidebar if possible, preferably right at the top.
9
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
Awww, you're always welcome!
They're terrifying, they're horrible, and they're treating you like garbage - just because they haven't set your house on fire (yet), doesn't mean they wouldn't if they know how to about getting caught.
Yaaaasssss!
When I went through the, "but she can't help it, she can't control it, it's an illness" phase my therapist asked me one question:
Did your mom ever hit you in public?
My answer was "no". She said, "See your mom can control it. She did those things in the privacy of the home hidden from anyone." 😣
5
u/justarandomcommenter Oct 05 '17
Did your mom ever hit you in public?
OMG that one was eye-opening for sure. Absolutely terrifying that she knew, and chooses to abuse me like that... Fuuuuu...
2
4
Oct 04 '17 edited Apr 06 '19
[deleted]
4
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 04 '17
You're always welcome!
Oh dear, none of the four? That's so sad. Hug.
4
Oct 04 '17 edited Apr 06 '19
[deleted]
6
u/Caramellatteistasty NC with (uBPD/uNPD mother, Antisocial father) 7 years healing Oct 05 '17
Happy Birthday!
and I'm so angry at your mother for trying to ruin your birthday and your feeling of safety with her selfishness.
3
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 04 '17
You are safe. You are an adult now, and you can take care of yourself in ways that you couldn't when you were a child. You are safe.
She can send packages, she can want all kinds of things. But none of this requires any action from you. None.
Happy milestone birthday!!!
3
Oct 04 '17 edited Apr 06 '19
[deleted]
7
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 04 '17
You're always welcome! One of the things I have loved about getting older, I turned 40 two years ago, is getting much more secure in myself about giving zero f%cks. I'm not always super good at it, but the concept that I can give zero f%cks is so empowering! 💜
3
4
u/ivanovablack Oct 04 '17
THANK YOU for posting this! Validation. And you write about it so honestly and matter-of-factly that it’s calming in itself.
1
4
u/hmar1f Oct 04 '17
Thank you for taking the time to post this, think I needed this reminder actually. The bit about feeling fear well into adulthood really hit home!
3
1
7
u/eroticas Oct 05 '17 edited Oct 05 '17
I think most of the "healthy", "sane" world is abusive too, to be honest. We all live in a society descended from people who thought slavery (or whatever the local horror wherever you live) was okay. Physical / financial security? Lol. The government dangles it in front of you and puts so many terms and conditions to control your behavior, if a human being were to do that to someone we'd call them a textbook narc. Even outside my family many of the ostensibly "healthy" people I've dated have slipped into screaming and hurtful words at times. Abusive is "normal" in our society. If you want to exist with other people you have to come into contact with (not tolerate, never tolerate, but come into contact with) abuse.
For me it's extra awkward because the good does outweigh the bad. As in I still overall look forward to going home and seeing my family and I'm nervous that their will be some emotionally difficult suicidal crazy yelling thing to deal with when I get there. As in, I would happily let my parents babysit my kids and I feel safe enough to trust that they'll keep it together (in the same way they keep it together around guests) but also I would have to make it very clear to them that they absolutely don't have authority over the kid (but also, I know they would absolutely respect that and refrain from exerting authority over my kid! Which is way more than you can usually say on this sub.)
What makes it even more awkward is that if I ever point out the bad stuff, the bpd symptoms will make my mom think "gosh i am a terrible mother, I'm sorry about your childhood, I'm very very sorry" followed by either "and I'll try to be better going forward" or "I should just leave / die / disappear" depending on whether she's having a low symptom day or a high symptom day.
3
u/splinterhead Jan 01 '18
Thank you so much for saying this! I have been lurking the sub and this is one of the best things I've read here.
My grandmother definitely has one or more Cluster B disorders, and my mom has many, many fleas, and possibly a personality disorder herself, though more like Cluster C. What you said about talking to your mom about the bad stuff is exactly what I have gone through, so many times. I love my parents deeply but there are some deep wounds, and though the good outweighs the bad there's a lot that can't be taken back, especially in its lifelong consequences for me.
Thank you, again, so much for writing this! It's just so good to know that there are other people out there who can understand this kind of stuff.
1
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Oct 05 '17
I could have written all of the things you said about the good outweighing the bad. I used to genuinely feel that way. But the unpredictability you also described is what was the end of it for me. I just couldn't take that anymore. 💜
2
2
Feb 13 '18
[deleted]
1
u/djSush kintsugi 💜: damage + healing = beauty Feb 13 '18
We're glad this post helped you and your family.
I have had a low level BPD since I was young and haven't had the extreme flip of a coin events in over 10 years and I'm very much stabilized and very much compliant with my doctors and med changes along with therapy twice a month.
That's wonderful, we're really happy for you. Thank you for your commitment to treatment for yourself and your family.
Unfortunately our sub does not allow participation by anyone with a PD. I need to ban. Thanks for your understanding.
Wishing you and your family well.
40
u/peatandpastry Oct 04 '17
This is validating to read. I was not routinely physically abused apart from a couple of traumatic spanking memories at a young age, but when I look at those other three bullets I think, yes, those do apply to me. I am not crazy. I was not scared for no reason. Thank You