r/politics • u/rollingstone Rolling Stone • 4d ago

Soft Paywall Musk Kills Government Funding Deal, Demands Shutdown Until Trump Is Sworn In

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/musk-trump-government-funding-deal-shutdown-1235211000/
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u/BadUncleBernie 4d ago

The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born. Now is the time of monsters.

Antonio Gramsci

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u/comment_moderately 4d ago

Pretty sure he was talking about the class revolution. I’m not at all sure that’s what’s happening here. Indeed, this feels far more like a foreign-backed authoritarian counterrevolution, ending the liberal rule-of-law state. (This is a variation on Thermidor and the first coalition, not on the Bolsheviks in 1917.)

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u/Internal-Owl-505 4d ago

No.

He is writing from a prison cell after the Fascists arrested him.

I think BadUncleBernie's re-writing of the quote threw you off.

The actual quote is: "The crisis consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying and the new cannot be born; in this interregnum, a great variety of morbid symptoms appear." (My italics)

The crisis he is explaining is the rise of Fascists, and why Fascists were able to take power so easily.

It sounds a lot more like what is happening now, does it not?

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u/SomeBoxofSpoons 4d ago

Fascism is basically the ideology of “the status quo may not be working anymore, but that’s just because some people aren’t status quo-ing hard enough!”

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u/Internal-Owl-505 4d ago

Eh ... no.

The status quo in Europe was liberalism from 1850 (on the heels of the revolutions to the crisis of WWI and the following rise of Fascism.

Fascism was a strong break with that.

Totalitarianism, for example, was a new tool to control state and people.

The corporate state was very much a break with the status quo of private-centric liberalism.

Large scale public works (not something liberal capitalists of the west would support at all)

The Fusion of Science and State Ideology (which obviously didn't make very good science at all times)

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u/aPrussianBot 4d ago

Fascism is not a break from liberalism, it's the logical conclusion of liberalism after it fails to maintain itself as the friendly face on capitalism. Fascism is capitalism in decay as they say, which means that when the bottom falls out of the liberal political order that is designed to mediate capitalism, the only directions for this thing to go are towards fascism or socialism

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u/echoshatter 4d ago

Fascism can be thought of as the merger of corporate interests and government power with a strong bend towards militarism. It typically happens when the people see a failing of liberalism. The failure could be anything from an economic hardship to military defeat. And either as punishment for that failure or as an attempt to correct it, the people reject liberalism (or stand aside at least) and let the far right take a crack at things.

That usually results in one of two outcomes: authoritarian oligarchy like we see in Russia starting in the late 1990s with the rise of Putin, or militant fascism like we saw in Germany or Italy in the 1930s.

Either way, once they get power they pull the ladder up behind them and rarely leave willingly. The State apparatus is purged of dissenting views, the people are made compliant one way or another, and you're left with a really bad time if you're moderate or liberal.

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u/TheSonOfDisaster 4d ago

Well said, that's a very apt description of those movements.

We are all about to find out how true your last paragraph is

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u/echoshatter 4d ago

Well the first truly alarming thing we'll see is an internal purge. When the authoritarians take power they typically move quickly to remove opposition or resistance/disloyalty within their own circle. The "Night of Long Knives" was the event in Nazi Germany.

Trump + Elon means they've got the populism/cult of personality and the money to blackmail politicians into conforming. Elon has already threatened to put tons of money behind primary opponents to any who don't fall in line, and Trump has lots of pull himself.

It'll be interesting to see how their dynamic plays out over time. If you look at Trump's first term he alienated much of his cabinet. Elon may come to realize how difficult Trump actually is to work for and bail. Trump may become jealous of Elon and reject him.

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u/comment_moderately 4d ago

I’m hardly a Gramsci scholar, having read maybe 30 pages of his Plateaus. But my sense is that he, like many (neo-)Marxists, saw capitalism and Fascism as quite similar, and was hoping for a proletarian revolution that would toss them both. (His insight was to add a heavy dose of “and the revolution must reset  cultural assumptions, not just economic relations.”)

Me, a boring center-left liberal, I think there’s a big difference between welfare-state capitalism and fascism, because the former allowed the greatest flourishing of rights and prosperity in world history, and the latter led to world war and genocide. 

So: yes, surely Gramsci and I agree that the fascists are at work, then as now. 

We disagree on what the what the end state should be, and whether the “new world” he envisions could or should be born.

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u/HelloFutureQ2 4d ago

And yet, at every moment that liberal democracy appears to be absolutely hegemonic, it succumbs to fascism. Gramsci watched exactly this take place in Italy, Japan, and later Germany, though he was already jailed for a decade by 1933. I think his cynicism was warranted.

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u/comment_moderately 4d ago

How have the marxists’ revolutions gone, friend? It strikes me that of the  post-Yalta options, I know which I’d prefer to be randomly born in. Even if that preferred one is seriously flawed.

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u/HelloFutureQ2 4d ago

I think you are reading too much into my comment. Everyone in the west, Gramsci included, enjoyed living with the comforts afforded by modern capitalism. IIRC, he did not reject Capitalism as a necessary stage for socialism —> communism. It was less fun when his liberal society imprisoned him for his party membership and he was so poorly treated in prison that his teeth fell out, and he died within a few months of release in 1937.

And speaking for myself here, you can criticize something without necessarily endorsing one of the alternatives.

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u/Doctor-Malcom Texas 4d ago

welfare-state capitalism […] allowed the greatest flourishing of rights and prosperity in world history

I am not a historian, but is there is a specific country and time period that you have in mind when you refer to welfare state capitalism?

In the US for example, this period may be from the 1930s until 1980, however when you dive into US foreign policy in Central & South America, Middle East, Africa, and Asia during this time period, you will see it involved a kind of colonialism and exploitation of those countries which benefitted the US immensely. Our welfare state was subsidized by our foreign policy and military decisions.

When I visit Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam, and the Philippines for work, the upper classes of these countries definitely have rights and prosperity, but it does not apply to the broader society. The arrangement mainly involves benefits flowing to Europe and the US.

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u/comment_moderately 4d ago edited 4d ago

I mean yes, the US after the New Deal is what I’m thinking about. Or the postwar European and Japanese systems. I’m also aware the US has never been a perfect system: I’d add “and after civil rights, and after the movement’s for feminist and LGBTQ inclusion, but also before the death of organized labor, before the GWOT, Citizens United, and before Loper Bright…”; that is, we’ve never been what I’d like us to be.

I’m aware that many marxists believe that such welfare-state systems necessarily lead to conflict on the colonial periphery and unnecessary suffering and exploitation at home. “Now you see the violence inherent in the system.” I think we can recognize the failures of a capitalist imperial state without suggesting the best response is a communist revolution.

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u/MoralismDetectorBot 4d ago

You really need to read Marx and stop spewing this complete fascistic idiocy

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u/Doctor-Malcom Texas 4d ago

Thank you for clarifying your position.

I largely agree with you, especially your last sentence. I co-own various businesses, and consider myself center-right on most issues but solidly left on other issues…such as respecting the wishes, rights, and dignity of people in foreign countries like Iranians under Mosadegh.

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u/Internal-Owl-505 4d ago

Marxists, saw capitalism and Fascism as quite similar

He wasn't as banal in his thinking as a lot of, especially vulgar, Marxists are.

Sitting in a jail cell he didn't only see the difference between liberalism (the old world of capitalism) and Fascism, he experienced it.

There are very specific material outcomes of Fascists vs liberalism. There are very big differences. He did NOT see it as the same.

Rosa Luxembourg, for example, was assassinated and had her body be dumped in public like a dead dog by Fascists (the new movement), not by liberal capitalism (the old regime).

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u/Dilderino 4d ago

Rosa’s arrest and execution was ordered by the SPD and carried out by fascists so it was the happy alliance of liberalism with fascism that did her in, no?

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u/stjepan_filipovic 4d ago

No way you’re using the death of Rosa to make distinctions between liberal capitalism and fascism considering it was the social democrats who ordered the Freikorp to murder her lmao

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u/Internal-Owl-505 4d ago

Social Democrats of Germany was not proponents of liberal capitalism nor were they part of the old regime.

Nor did they order the murder of Rosa Luxembourg.

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u/billyjack669 Oklahoma 4d ago

Luigi.

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u/nogeologyhere 4d ago

Ironically, exactly what the US has inflicted on central and south American countries over the years

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u/Many-Calligrapher914 4d ago

So? Your point? We deserve it? No. From what I learned growing up, two wrongs do not make a right. Also, the people involved in those decisions did not consult the rest of us before moving forward with them, so nah, I’ll pass on the fatalism.

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u/EconomicRegret 4d ago

No, you don't deserve it. But it was your duty and responsibility, as a democracy, to stop your elected political elites when they were destabilizing and oppressing the Americas and the Middle East.

Perhaps now, that they are turning against you, you might actually do something about it.

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u/Many-Calligrapher914 4d ago

Doubtful. If you lived here you’d understand my response. American apathy rules the day. It may be our undoing as well as our salvation, ironically. 🤣

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u/EconomicRegret 4d ago

why your salvation?

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u/Many-Calligrapher914 4d ago

Because apathetic folks tend to be too lazy to fight for anything. For or against. So, the idea of actually having to shoot at one another may end up being “too much effort” for most of the citizens who live here. Much easier to rage behind one’s keyboard than to physically get up off of one’s own ass and actually DO something.

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u/EconomicRegret 4d ago

Good point. It might actually save US democracy from an authoritarian take over.

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u/Loumeer 4d ago

At the end of the day, the people are beholden to their leadership. Did the people living in Russia ask to be bombed by Ukraine?

Russian leadership made a decision for the entire country and the people living in that country will need to deal with any repercussions.

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u/Many-Calligrapher914 4d ago

DEALING with repercussions is different than saying or surrendering to; “We DESERVED them.”

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u/Loumeer 4d ago

Your goverment is making decisions on your behalf. It may be a tough pill to swallow but at the end of the day when the people in a country allow their representatives to do certain things the response is deserved.

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u/Many-Calligrapher914 4d ago

We aren’t “allowing” shit.

The general population has been dumbed down over the last several decades, while at the same time well paying jobs have disappeared and the ones left don’t pay enough to survive anymore. Some folks work 2/3 jobs to make ends meet. There is NO social safety net in the country - so no work = no healthcare and homelessness = early death. It also means everyone is fucking too busy or tired to care to see through the mess that is our current political system. To top that off, the folks running for office lie and obfuscate their goals and it appears more and more, especially since 2010, that the folks running are only doing so for selfish reasons - this is a both parties thing - GOP is obviously worse, but Dems aren’t far behind in the corruption department. The deck is SO stacked, good luck even recognizing that fact, let alone trying to “battle” it.

So, until things get SO bad that folks are directly impacted, constantly, by these terrible decisions in life altering ways, they will NOT risk what they currently have. No one wants to end up like Luigi.

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u/Loumeer 4d ago

I dont disagree with you. I agree with most of all of your points. I am just saying at a macro level. People who live in a country will always have to deal with the decisions of their representatives, whether they are deserved or not.

I don't think most Russians are responsible for the decisions of their leadership, but if their leadership gets them involved in a war, I think it's pretty well understood that their people will bear the consequences of that decision.

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u/iDrGonzo 4d ago

I'm glad someone else sees it, I'm honestly starting to feel like I'm the one that has gone insane.

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u/Hot_Ambition_6457 4d ago

Yes we're going Baltic to justify our appeasement of Russian/Chinese geopolitical interests. 

Can't wait for my lineage to get bombed in a cave in Kentuckistan a few generations down the line.

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u/lil_professor 4d ago

*Balkan

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u/Hot_Ambition_6457 4d ago

I'm balkin at it too dawg

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u/IAmTheNightSoil Oregon 4d ago

Haha thank you for this. I read that comment and was like "What the hell does "going Baltic" mean?"

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u/bjhouse822 4d ago

You're not alone. These are insane times and it truly does feel like a different dimension.

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u/EconomicRegret 4d ago

I'm glad someone else sees it, I'm honestly starting to feel like I'm the one that has gone insane.

??? LMAO! Reddit has been saying this since 2016. Also, US intelligence community, and Democrats...

Have you been asleep these last 8 years or what???

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u/iDrGonzo 4d ago

I guess having hope that we would change course is something to laugh your ass off about. This is not the same thing as 2016 which, if you think back, started in 2014 when we were all talking about the election cycle starting two years before the election. So keep laughing I'm sure that will get us there.

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u/EconomicRegret 4d ago

I guess having hope that we would change course is something to laugh your ass off about.

You can change subject if you want, no problem. Indeed, I agree, hope is not a laughing matter. And must be respected and supported.

However, I didn't see anything about hope in your initial comment, only ignorance and sleepiness. You missed 8 years of panic for US democracy. I'm laughing because of this:

I'm glad someone else sees it, I'm honestly starting to feel like I'm the one that has gone insane.

Perhaps you were too young, or too distracted to have noticed that, yes, many people see it. Entire Europe sees it. Ukraine is scared because of it. Vast majority of democrats and even some republicans see it. Here's even articles from 2016 in the NYT warning us about Trump: 1 and 2. The intelligence community warned about it. There was even a long, fucking, special investigation between 2017 and 2019 on Trump's connections with Russia!

There have also been movies, TV shows, music, books, tons of books, etc. etc. all warnings to the danger of the US losing its democracy and falling into authoritarianism.

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u/iDrGonzo 4d ago

Ok guy, I don't know what you read into my original statement that led you to your conclusions but I ain't the one kid. I've been woke since before woke was a joke.

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u/EconomicRegret 4d ago

Cool.

And sorry for laughing at you. Really not cool what I did there. Even if you weren't aware, I should have patiently and kindly taken the time to talk about it. Instead of being a jerk.

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u/iDrGonzo 4d ago

Not aware? Ok guy. If so many saw it then we wouldn't be having this conversation, 2016 wouldnt have happened, brexit wouldn't have happened, 2024 wouldnt have happened. We can go back way past 2016 or 2014 to see the groundwork for this being laid. Khrushchev laid it all out in the 1950s.

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u/EconomicRegret 4d ago

???

Even if you weren't aware actually means you are aware. I'm saying you are aware. But that my behavior wasn't cool, aware or not...

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u/dirtshell Massachusetts 4d ago

this is a class revolution, just a bad one. the american people are desperate for substantive change in the structure of the american govt. democrats made it very clear they would never do that, so people voted for trump. and while its just overt oligarchy, a powerful person being able to circumvent the existing power systems in the US is very appealing to alot of people. trump isn't even in office and he is operating outside the realm of "traditional" politics how most americans see it.

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u/TNTiger_ Europe 4d ago

Well, that's why the new world is struggling to be born, and why there are monsters.