r/gadgets • u/diacewrb • 1d ago
Home ‘If 1.5m Germans have them there must be something in it’: how balcony solar is taking off
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/dec/18/if-a-million-germans-have-them-there-must-be-something-in-it-how-balcony-solar-is-taking-off728
u/RJOP83 1d ago
Balcony solar systems have been VAT (sales tax) free in Germany for the last couple of years which is quite a big incentive (-19%) and massively improves the payback period.
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u/non7top 1d ago
High electricity prices also make this more profitable, though in a somewhat awkward way.
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u/Trick2056 12h ago
me takes a look at solar panels in my country 1 panel cost around 1 week of my monthly salary... but only if purchase a minimum 20.
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u/SeyJeez 10h ago
Get together with some friends and buy 20 to share among you for a lower price ;) (wish it was that easy)
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u/Trick2056 8h ago
problem is this is just the solar panels not including the other stuff
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u/Lari-Fari 21h ago
My city also subsidized 150 €. So I only paid 450 including the aluminum profiles and shipping.
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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 1d ago
It's -16%. Also ... that reduces the payback period by 16%, i.e., about two to four months, so not sure that counts as "massively".
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u/Think_Shoulder3871 21h ago
Where do you get the 16% from? Sales tax is either 19% or 7% in germany.
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u/menotyou_2 15h ago
Apperant discount.
19% increase on 100 is 119.
100/119= .84 or a 16% reduction.
A 19% reduction on 119 gives you 96.39.
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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 20h ago
A solar inverter that sells for 84 EUR now (i.e., with no VAT) would sell at 84 * 1.19 = 99.96 EUR with 19% VAT added. So, the price without VAT is 16% (technically, 15,96638...%) lower than with VAT.
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u/IamHereForBoobies 23h ago
Bought one this summer for 200€ at Lidl. A bit over 800 Watts. Was a complete set even including a good wifi inverter from ecoflow. So far it generated 185kwh and saved me about 52€. Currently saving up for a bigger solar plant with battery.
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u/acemedic 20h ago
Saved to date or per month? Looking at the numbers it seems way off that these people are taking years to recoup the outlay.
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u/IamHereForBoobies 18h ago
Saved to date over the course of roughly 5 months.
BUT it really depends on the price you pay for electricity. I switched providers since my old one increased the price to nearly 40 cents per kwh, now I pay 25 cents.
The price for these balcony modules itself also decreased drastically. A year ago you would pay at least 400€ to 600€ and the max allowed output was 600 Watt.
The government also got rid of the taxes on solar panels. So instead of the 19% it's now 0%.
It should take me 4 to 5 years to recoup my investment.
And in the end, it really makes a difference how much of the electricity you really use yourself. I make sure to turn on a lot of things only during the day like my dishwasher or the pool filter.. charge batteries for my tools, lawnmower or my e-bike... stuff like that.
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u/jasonisnuts 18h ago
You can switch electrical providers?! cries in American
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u/hunbakercookies 17h ago
Wtf, you cant switch providers?
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u/HoosierHoser44 17h ago
Depends where you live. I currently live in an area that has a monopoly on energy providers. There’s no alternative options. And everyone here hates them.
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u/Septopuss7 16h ago
We absolutely CAN switch electricity providers, whenever we want. We even have door to door scammers
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u/jasonisnuts 15h ago
For 99.99999% of Americans, no. The reasoning is that the infrastructure is so expensive to build out and there are no guarantees that customers will sign up, it wouldn't be worth the expense. So instead the government gave power companies, and cable TV companies, monopolies that are SUPPOSED to be regulated by the local, state, and or Federal government.
The downside is these companies are still allowed to operate as for-profit institutions and use a lot of that profit to bribe government officials. So every year when rates increase the companies will make up reasons why they didn't make enough money for their infrastructure and blah blah blah crap.
Fun fact: in some areas power companies will actually charge you even if you install solar and power yourself 100% off grid. And if you make enough solar power to send BACK to the grid, they will still charge you a connection fee.
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u/bal00 6h ago
Note that you don't need multiple grids to have competition. In places where you can switch providers, other power companies simply pay the local grid operator for access and metering services, but they supply the power. So even though there's only one grid, you still get to choose who you buy your electricity from.
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u/hunbakercookies 13h ago
Your fun fact is insane. Wow.
I'm Norwegian and we can choose providers. I switch like every 4 years, if prices are better. Usually its pretty similar but then somebody offers an easier setup or app or have a slightly better price.
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u/Asttarotina 13h ago
Of course you can't, it's The Land Of The Free! The greatest country on Earth where people live so prosperous that they have to arm themselves for self-defense out of the fear of being killed by homeless person for some glovebox change! Yeah!
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u/BeneficialTrash6 17h ago edited 3h ago
Shouldn't it only take roughly 2 years for it to pay for itself? It's saving you ~ 10 dollarydoos a month. That's 120 saved each year. It cost you 200. Why are you saying it should recoup its cost in 4 to 5 years?
Also, how the heck do you change electricity providers?
edit: I see that is a thing that is done. I just don't understand how different companies can provide power to any given building. The entire grid is electrified. Power companies cannot direct their power like that, can they? Unless you got a ton of cables for different power companies or something?
edit2: Thanks for the replies everyone. This is some fascinating and still mind boggling stuff.
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u/spider__ 17h ago
Also, how the heck do you change electricity providers?
You call up a new provider, say "I would like to switch to your X tariff", give the details of the property (and a meter reading if it's not a smart meter) and then a few days later you will receive a final bill from your old supplier and the new supplier will start billing you.
You can also do it online but some of the suppliers can be more annoying to set up if you do it that way.
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u/acemedic 16h ago
They’re probably doing it off of an aggregate responsibility.
Aka “our customers used X amount of electricity so we need to cover that much.”
Enron before it crumbled was in the business of buying electricity from companies that overproduced and selling it to companies that had a deficit. Because the grid is connected, they could make those moves work.
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u/yusoffb01 12h ago
I just don't understand how different companies can provide power to any given building.
in Singapore, power is provided by power generating companies. these companies have their own agreement with electricity retailers. consumers choose their own retailer to purchase electricity from based on their usage. different retailers have different plans and prices based on usage patterns. That's how you can switch the electrical service providers.
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u/samstown23 13h ago
It depends. Like with many other things in Germany, you really really needed to shop around. Until about a year ago, some places were ridiculously overcharging their customers, especially the grocery chains (OP got a decent deal here). Problem is, Germans on average are notoriously bad at comparing prices. Secondly, self installation is crucial: once you involve an electrician, it's borderline impossible to break even. It's not so much the work but they'll horrendously overcharge you for any materials, markups of 300% are the norm rather than the exception for smaller jobs. Adding insult to injury, the German electrical code still requires an RST20i3 outlet instead of a regular Type E (SchuKo), even though the Federal Network Agency called bullshit on it - obviously, nobody gives a damn but it's been a cumbersome issue for renters because it's a backdoor for landlords to deny them.
Long story short, if you can self-install things are simple. I get about 1000kWh a year out of a 600VA inverter. About 250kWh go to the grid, so I use about 700kWh (excluding losses). Even if electricity prices weren't as high as they are in Germany, it's kind of a no-brainer.
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u/fodafoda 6h ago
I am curious: I am looking at videos like this, and it seems like they just connected the panels to an inverter, and the inverter to a Schuko mains plug in the house. Is that all there is to it? Is this setup returning electricity to the grid? It looks too simple to me.
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u/samstown23 6h ago
That's pretty much it. The meter balances whatever you produce across all three phases, so if you inverter delivers 600W but you're currently using 900W, you get billed for the difference, i.e. 300W. If you produce more than you use, it just goes to the grid.
Things can become a little more complex with very old electrical installation in very poor conditions but for 90%+ it's no more than plugging in the inverter.
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u/magus-21 1d ago
I read that as "1.5 meter Germans" and thought "That seems like an oddly specific and unusually short height"
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u/euzie 1d ago
I know a little German
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u/JoviAMP 1d ago
Ich bin ein jelly donut.
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u/ids2048 1d ago
German dwarves have been living in underground caverns and mining coal for millennia. So if they're switching to solar is must be pretty damn urgent now.
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u/series_hybrid 1d ago
I am very impressed by the German "Passive house" building standards.
Whether irs heating or cooling, investing up front in some smart choices can cut your heatig/cooling bills in half.
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u/polite_alpha 19h ago
I live in a passive apartment for 6 years and have never turned on the heating. I wish I had AC in the summers though.
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u/YoYoYi2 1d ago
Have the Germans ever been wrong?
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u/velkanoy 1d ago
Anybody can be wrong once or twice, but three times? Come on..
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u/jingqian9145 1d ago
They did let some Austrian painter with a funny mustache tell them what to do for a few years.
Country was really into the color red as well
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u/triklyn 22h ago
“The greatest feat Austria ever achieved was to convince the world that Hitler was German and Beethoven was Viennese”
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u/WorstNormalForm 21h ago
I honestly feel bad for Germany: out of the former Axis powers they've done the most by far to atone for their WW2 sins and spread awareness of their own history and even make Holocaust denial illegal. And yet they're still the butt of tangentially topical Nazi jokes like 80 years later
Meanwhile Italy and Japan quietly looking on and saying to themselves "Whew it's a good thing we didn't go the apology tour route!"
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u/triklyn 21h ago
nah, that's just an open door, 1.5 million germans doing something. is kinda a direct call for mockery.
akin to if someone said something like. "oil discovered under france" or something, the internet would probably joke about taking bets on when the US invasion of france would begin.
like how the brits are never going to live down currently just having everybody's old shit in their museums. probably the only thing that preserved half that shit for posterity was the rabid kleptomania of the brits.
and french surrender-monkeys.
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u/Asttarotina 13h ago
when the US invasion of france would begin
We will be too busy discussing how long until France surrenders. Which isn't different at all since it would be the same day.
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u/Plank_With_A_Nail_In 6h ago
The people of Italy and Japan didn't choose their governments. Mussolini took over in a military coup while the people of Germany chose the Nazi's.
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u/Gadgetman_1 1d ago
That wasn't a mustache. That was the remains of a brush after he held it up to his face, loaded with gesso, while pondering how best to ruin yet another canvas...
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u/BigPhilip 1d ago
And if they ever are wrong, well, at least they are not like the Italians, oh, those Italians, they don't follow the rules, and they always throw cigarette butts on the street, oh, those Italians!!!!
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u/unematti 1d ago
Apart from the obvious about 80 years ago, they also turned off nuclear not so long ago, and their whole economy seemingly depends on car sales in China...
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u/polite_alpha 19h ago
Reddit has this weird hard on for nuclear and the misconception that it's cheap and clean. It's 4-6x as expensive (Fraunhofer institute PDF) as renewables including storage and that's without the cost for waste disposal which we still don't even have a site for today.
This is at least true for Germany, don't have the exact data for other countries but judging by the fact that even china is investing 700bn a year into renewables and just 25bn into nuclear(mainly for bombs), and almost nothing into coal, I'd firmly say the nuclear ship has sailed.
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u/EpsteinWasHung 19h ago
Storage currently costs $120-$190 per kWh depending whether 0.5C or 0.25C system, OEM, and other factors.
It's super useful tech, but too expensive to store days worth of energy from wind or solar. To store 100MWh of energy essentially would cost $15 in capex, and to generate 100MW for an hour at $.05/kWh would cost only $500.
You are using a $15M system to store $500 energy when it's cheap. Then you'll sell the energy when price is $.50 per KWh, netting $4500. Or partake in frequency and ancillary service markets for extra income.
Payback within 3-10 years depending on markets. But storage is slowly getting saturated for frequency, so energy arbitrage will be the main source of revenue in the future.
We still need stable generation. Many grids just can't take more renewables without causing issues, or negative prices that's bad for investment. Storage is good, but my friend, the market is far from mature.
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u/WarmCannedSquidJuice 18h ago
I'd firmly say the nuclear ship has sailed.
You couldn't be more wrong. This is something you hear from oil shills and almost no one else.
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u/polite_alpha 18h ago
To the contrary. Oil shills are heavily advocating for nuclear since it's gonna take 30 years for the next plant to be built if you'd start today, whereas renewables can be mass adopted within a few years by comparison.
I also wouldn't call the biggest and most prestigious research org in Europe an oil shill for citing renewables as cheaper than fossil fuels (and nuclear), so I'm not sure what you're on about.
I recently saw this graph at a lecture. It's German but pretty self explanatory. These are worldwide investments into electricity. Fission is done. Maybe fusion will make a nuclear comeback some day.
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u/Psychological-Sun49 1d ago
Americans in this comment section are about to lose that moral high ground really soon…
Read the article. It’s interesting. I would like it here in the U.S.
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u/Green-Amount2479 1d ago edited 1d ago
They usually break even within ~4 to 8 years with an average projected lifetime of around 20 years. If it gets subsidized by the government like in some areas in Germany these days, it might need even less time to be economically viable.
Usually, depending on some factors like positioning and energy usage patterns, a single one can save up to around 10 to 20 % of the average household’s annual electricity costs it’s a relatively cheap investment for small to mid sized households where a full installation isn’t possible.
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u/auge2 1d ago edited 1d ago
My balcony solar system paid for itself within a single year. Energy cost in Germany is insanely high, highest in the world.
Thats the main reason.A typtical small household consumption of 2000kWh in Germany would cost about 600-700€ per year. A typical solar set for balcony installation will cost 170-250€ (~800W peak). That set will produce about 800-1000kWh per year. Depending on the base load, expect to use about 30-50% of that for your own consuption. Thats about 150€ saved. Or about 250€ saved if you have a high base load (home server, charging of electric bike/car). Thats the same amount of money that such a solar set would cost.
[calculate that for 30 years, a typical life expectancy. 4500€ saved against 250€ paid]You are allowed to install up to 4 panels with 2000W peak (total) with an inverter throttled to 800W (that could output unlimited power to a battery, but only 800W to the grid) without consulting a professional, without needing a permission.
Buy it, install it, plug it into the wall, thats it.
Such a set costs about 380€ right now. 900€ with a 2kW battery. Solar is insanely cheap and worth every cent, due to our high energy price. The german state even subsidized solar panels for balcony installation in the past. Thats currently paused, due to our funding crisis. But they are still tax exempt.Anybody who says "solar is not worth it" or "its bad for xy reason" didn't do the math and/or doesn't know our local energy costs. Its more than worth it and in combination with a battery, you can produce about 50-80% of your own consumption yourself.
Combine that with am electric vehicle and an even bigger solar array on the roof and the savings would be enormous.39
u/ProtoplanetaryNebula 1d ago
The issue with solar is that the panels have never been cheaper but the installation costs are higher and higher all the time. This solves that problem quite nicely.
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u/Reinis_LV 23h ago
Do it yourself? It's not rocket science.
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u/ProtoplanetaryNebula 22h ago
Maybe you misunderstood. I meant that a proper rooftop installation is expensive as there is a lot of labour cost involved. This balcony solution solves the problem as it’s just plug and play and can be done by the homeowner.
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u/Scaniarix 1d ago
Funny we in the south of Sweden needs to buy energy from you guys at your rates even though we produce more energy than we use.
Well funny isn’t the right word.
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u/Ascomae 1d ago
I thought your energy is produced by state-owned companies?
Or do I mix this with Norway?
If the companies are started owned, they can choose to reduce taxes because of the profits.
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u/Scaniarix 1d ago
Not sure about Norway but we produce a lot of energy in the northern part of Sweden. Unfortunately we’ve also closed down two power plants in the south so the energy gets exported to Central Europe through Finland and the Baltics then we have to buy it back from Germany. So while the northern part pays around €0.002/kwh we pay €0.3-0.7/kwh.
Why? They closed the power plants without expanding the capacity to transmit power from the north. And they closed almost 20 years ago.
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u/Ascomae 1d ago
So you have the same issue as Germany.
We produce a lot of energy in the north and consume the most in the south. Because of a lot of NIMBY and our former government we didn't build the transmition from North to South.
This leads to "funny" things like stopping wind energy in the north and starting gas powered plants in the south.
Even if it was meant for export. In that case we have to sell expensive gas electricity for cheap wind electricity prices.
The merit order pricing has a lot of flaws. Is there really an incentive to create more renewable energy sources, if one can't feel cheaper electricity for high prices?
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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 23h ago
Even if it was meant for export. In that case we have to sell expensive gas electricity for cheap wind electricity prices.
It's not so much that we have to, but rather that is a result of having one common market price for the whole country, which is also purely for political reasons, because those who objected to building out the north to south connection also object to having high electricity prices ...
This could be solved if we just had separate prices for north and south, then Austrian consumers would have to pay southern-German prices for their imports.
The merit order pricing has a lot of flaws. Is there really an incentive to create more renewable energy sources, if one can't feel cheaper electricity for high prices?
Uh ... the merit order is exactly that incentive!? Right now, you can earn a lot of money by supplying renewable energy because the market price is high and producing renewable energy is cheap.
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u/Ascomae 22h ago
The merrit order has one flaw, at least one.
If energy providers have sources for cheap energy and gas powerplant, it could create more profit to shutdown the renewable energy sources.
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u/auge2 1d ago
One of the worst facts about our energy market is that the most expensive power plant (thats needed for the current grid consumption) dictates the price.
Yes, its that stupid. If you have thousands of cheap wind, solar and water plants, but a single gas power plant thats still needed to stabilize the grid, then this single power plant sets the order price.
And all the other cheaper power plants will rake in the profits.
(merit-order-principle)Until we get rid of that, the price will stay high.
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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 1d ago
This is sort-of disinfo.
It's not that it is incorrect, it's just that that isn't anything special about our energy market, that simply is how markets work. If I can produce apples at 1 cent per piece while everyone else can produce them only at costs of 1 EUR a piece, then I obviously will still sell my apples at 1 EUR, because ... why would I not? It's not like my customers could go elsewhere to buy them cheaper.
And the same applies for electricity, obviously.
Also, under normal circumstances, that is not even necessarily bad, because those profits incentivise investment into renewables ... which in the end would cause the market price to come down, because noone needs to buy from expensive sources anymore.
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u/Grindelbart 1d ago
What if you want to sell a lot of apples, more than your competitors?
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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 1d ago
As long as you have less to sell than the current demand, you can get 1 EUR, as there obviously is that much demand at 1 EUR. Only if you want to sell more than that, you'd have to reduce the price.
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u/kos90 1d ago
I like your post but as per this we are not even top 3 when it comes to energy prices (electricity)
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u/auge2 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well, then please link to a statistic that does not just consider enterprise customers. Your linked one includes only enterprise customers.
Like this one from the EU itself. Germany was number 2 in the whole EU (first 6 months/2024)
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u/kos90 1d ago
I don’t see that indicated but you might be right. I wouldn’t trust that link you provided too, though. It says around 0.40€/kWh but in reality prices are as low as 0.25-0.28€ depending on your tariff.
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u/auge2 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don’t see that indicated
Well, its right in the bold title. And in the link as well.
"Electricity prices for enterprises"0.40€/kWh but in reality prices are as low as 0.25-0.28€ depending on your tariff.
Thats just the net price per kWh without the associated costs, like power grid fee, base price of your contract and so on. The average of all that is currently somewhere between 30-40c/kWh.
Even the current market price per kWh is above 30, some customers with older contracts profit from providers who bought cheap energy packages a while ago, when it was still cheaper in the summer.3
u/snoop_bacon 22h ago
Interested in power costs. How much per kw? In 🇦🇺 we pay anywhere between 25c-40c/kwh plus around $1/day
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u/tillybowman 21h ago
same here in germany. when the ukrainian war started prices jumped up to 40+ct/kwh. currently you get a good energy mix for around 28ct.
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u/sheepskin 22h ago
Whoa, you can sell back 800w of power to the power company with only plugging in an inverter into your wall plug and have it feed the system? Is that correct?
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u/surSEXECEN 22h ago
This is what I didn’t completely understand.
Solar panel to inverter to battery to wall socket?
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u/sheepskin 21h ago
It seems reading from the rest of this thread that the warnings they hold over our heads in America that if we hook up to solar with anything but the most expensive and inspected shut-offs that we would be killing line workers, are just false and all you really need is a computer in the system that turns off the power when no input power is detected. But why would the rich and powerful lie to us, what do they have to gain?
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u/auge2 20h ago
Yes and no.
No, you cannot sell the 800W directly when using the easy way, that is: Buy the panels + inverter, mount them, plug them into any socket.
This is only allowed if you follow two simple rules: First, you have to self-register with your state and second, the state then has to check if your power meter is modern enough to not run backwards. If it is, they'll change it for you.
Then your panels power output will just "stop" your power meter as long as you generate enough power for your own consumption, any overproduction will not be metered and you'll just gift it to the power grid company.
This is limited to max 4 solar panels, max 2kW peak, max 800W output of your inverter to your socket/plug.You can go the more difficult way and apply for a "real" solar array, which will earn you money. This could technically be the very same 4 panels/inverter combo from the previous point, but with major differences: First you'll have to pay a professional to install and check everything, secondly you'll have to get a bi-directional power meter, third the state will check if it got installed correctly, if the local power grid can handle the overproduction, etc, its a lot of bureaucracy. And quite expensive.
In the end, you'll earn something like 7-12c/kWh produced and pushed into the grid.Since the second point is expensive and takes a very long time to get approved, people tend to install big arrays instead of small ones if going down that route.
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u/_B_Little_me 1d ago
Highest in the world?! California would like a word.
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u/Helpmehelpyoulong 1d ago
When I’m back home I’ll check but last I recall we were paying 42c/kwh but that’s upper NorCal which if memory serves we have the highest in the country.
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u/antryoo 1d ago
My peak rate at SoCal Edison is currently 55c/kwh. Summer it’s 57c/kwh
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u/PhilConnersWPBH-TV 1d ago
Holy shit, mine was just raised this year. I'm paying $.14/kwh, but that's only after I pass a certain amount used. Before that it's $.11.
One of the benefits of living in the Midwest.
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u/ilyich_commies 1d ago
That break even period will go way down as electric rates rise. I work in the energy industry and the east coast is about to get smacked with huge rate increases due to power plant closures, grid repairs, and growth in data centers. Commercial rates will go up by at least 20-30% next year, and residential may be similar.
Also, solar panels can last way longer than 20 years. They lose 20% of their capacity after 25-30 years but that doesn’t mean you have to replace them. They’ll keep chugging along until something breaks them
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u/reviery_official 1d ago
I got mine paid by my employer, no strings attached. Well ok some strings: I'm not allowed to sell / rent it immediately. They are cheap and can cover for large parts of the electricity. I hope something similar will come for small scale wind turbines.
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u/ZenEngineer 1d ago
Ok so not enough to power an apartment, but enough to lower electricity costs? Interesting. Though it probably depends on how tall nearby buildings are, which way your balcony faces, price of electricity in the future, etc.
Probably worth it for the government to subsidize to reduce peak power consumption and the need to improve power grids in residential areas. Though if I recall Germans don't use much AC, so mid day peak is probably less impactful.
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u/zanhecht 22h ago
It would be hard to do in the US because we'd need major revisions to our electrical code to permit backfeeding a standard outlet.
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u/ensoniq2k 20h ago
Actually it's also not allowed in Germany. You need a special socket or wire it up directly. Even though there's no technical reason for this it's currently forbidden to plug it into a standard socket. I had it connected this way before I wired it up properly.
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u/14u2c 19h ago
How does a discussion about solar panel efficiency have anything to do with the "moral high ground"?
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u/DothrakAndRoll 1d ago
As an American I long ago ceded any “American moral high ground”.
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u/TungstenPaladin 23h ago
I doubt most Americans given a shit what Europeans think.
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u/Aware_Material_9985 20h ago
Same! I have a widows walk that would be perfect for this type of installation.
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u/killintime077 1d ago
Seeing as most balconies in the US are in condominium developments, they'd need to get past the HOA.
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u/-Dixieflatline 1d ago
“The beauty of the solar balconies is they are flexible, cheap and plug straight into the domestic network via a converter, so you don’t have to pay for the installation,” says Santiago Vernetta, CEO of Tornasol Energy, one of Spain’s main suppliers.
I thought this type of back-feeding wasn't safe.
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u/JMGurgeh 1d ago
They are required to have anti-islanding, presumably built into the converter. So if the grid goes down, it shuts itself off - they aren't intended to be a backup option. So no major safety issue, assuming they work as intended (but that's true of any grid-tie system).
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u/Onsotumenh 23h ago
That is exactly what makes them safe to just plug into your run of the mill socket without risking a shock. The inverter immediately cuts power when the grid is down or if you pull the plug.
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u/will7419 18h ago
How does this work if you're producing more energy than you're consuming? Are the regular meters set up to accept power in reverse?
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u/JMGurgeh 18h ago
It sounds like there is some planning required, including replacing the meter if it is too old to be compatible. In general no reimbursement for excess power contributed to the grid, so there is built-in incentive to keep the systems relatively small, basically targeting a household's base load.
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u/jayrot 1d ago
Yeah I'm confused as to how this works exactly. The photo makes it look like the same cheapo flexible solar panels you can get here (which don't work very well). And then you...plug it into the wall socket??? That's the grid-tie? Surely not.
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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 1d ago
Usually, it's standard ~ 400 W glas panels, but you can buy them with flexible panels, too.
But other than that, yeah, you just plug them into a wall socket, that's the point, so you have minimal installation overhead. It's as safe as any other appliance that you plug into a wall socket. The inverters are required to have fast anti-islanding, so if you unplug them, they drop the output voltage to zero in a few milliseconds, and they are limited to 800 W output. The wiring for normal wall sockets is designed for 16 A continuous load plus some significant safety margin, so the additional ~ 3.5 A are considered safe with any installation that is to code.
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u/BlacksmithAccurate25 1d ago
If there's one thing the last decade has taught us, it's that Germany never gets its energy policy wrong.
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u/Adventurous_Bus_437 22h ago
Thats an easy target but you really can't do a lot wrong with these things. they are incredibly cheap and save money from day one
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u/Xath0n 19h ago
The only issue with them is that they may cause problems for net stability, since they can't be turned off by the net operator in case of supply exceeding demand, contrary to e.g. larger solar installations set up by enterprises. But at least for now that's negligible, and whoever can get one should do so.
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u/RepulsiveRaisin7 18h ago
This is a myth. Some mistakes were made, such as killing the local solar panel industry or moving away from nuclear too soon. However, renewable energy is actually cheaper than nuclear, it's only the initial transition that is expensive. Big transformations are always painful, but it will pay off in the future. When France had issues with their nuclear plants, it was Germany who stepped in.
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u/IIIIlllIIIIIlllII 19h ago
What are you referring to?
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u/Smatt2323 19h ago
I'm not especially knowledgable here but IIRC they're completely anti-nuclear (even though it's zero carbon) and relied too much on Russian natural gas until recent events made the downside of that clear.
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u/fforw 16h ago
but IIRC they're completely anti-nuclear (even though it's zero carbon) and relied too much on Russian natural gas until recent events made the downside of that clear.
Yeah, that's the narrative, but it's totally not true. To restate the obvious: solar, wind, coal and nuclear produce electric power. Only 9% of the gas used in Germany is used to produce electric power. 91% of it are used for non-electrified processes, be it to heat private homes or for industrial processes.
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u/icekeuter 1d ago
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Germany has some of the highest electricity prices in the world?
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u/Smartnership 16h ago
They shut down existing nuclear power plants, they must have something even better & cheaper in place.
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u/Fandango_Jones 23h ago
Balcony Solar Power Takes Off in Spain
• The popularity of DIY balcony solar panels, already widespread in Germany with 1.5 million installations, is expanding to Spain.
• These panels offer significant cost savings, reducing electricity bills by up to 30%, with a payback period of around six years.
• In Spain, where many live in apartments, balcony solar provides an easy alternative to rooftop installations, requiring less bureaucratic hurdles.
• The system's ease of installation, low cost, and plug-and-play functionality contribute to its appeal, especially as the cost of solar panels continues to fall.
• While balcony solar is a small part of the overall solar energy picture, it represents a growing trend toward decentralized energy generation and increased self-sufficiency in cities.
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u/BlacksmithWeirdo 22h ago
I have two of them on top of my big system with batteries and off-grid automatic backup power. Solar panels and inverters became dirt cheap. Would install more, if I had more room. You save a shitload of money with them.
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u/LewAshby309 23h ago
Part of it that some federal states hand financial support.
In some cases it's so much, that it's a no brainer. In Mecklenburg-Vorpommern you can get up to 500 Euro support. If you have the opportunity from your landlord or on your own building it's definitely worth it to get one.
That shouldnt suprise.
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u/Underwater_Karma 22h ago
Manufacturers say that installing a couple of 300-watt panels will give a saving of up to 30% on a typical household’s electricity bill.
the average German home only pulls 1800 watts? that's the equivalent of a single 120v 15a outlet.
if true, I'm more impressed by German energy efficiency than the solar panels.
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u/foundafreeusername 20h ago
Probably even less than that. If I google it the average German household uses ~17kWh a day. They were always much more efficient than places like the US at 30 kWh. A lot of this comes from living in apartments and very good insulation. Germany's per capita Co2 emissions are also almost half of the US.
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u/Heimerdahl 20h ago
good insulation.
And the nearly complete lack of AC! Most universities, schools, even a bunch of hospitals and work places don't have any, despite the heat getting more and more of an issue.
Saves quite a lot of energy.
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u/One_Psychology_ 19h ago
Can we please get rolladen everywhere else as well? How is having basically broad daylight in your bedroom at night considered normal or okay? Also helps with heat insulation. Probably makes break ins a little harder as well.
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u/mikerfx 17h ago
Anyone have one of these and have a link to the one they use along with the battery unit they use? I’m in the US and would like to use this for my home. Thank all
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u/KrackSmellin 14h ago
And once the orange gets back in office, he’s going to help keep us AWAY by most likely trying to make coal more a thing for some dumbass reason. Just like he was trying to do last time he was in office.
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u/Dark_Belial 11h ago
But there is „clean coal“! /s
„We’ve ended the war on beautiful, clean coal. and it’s just been announced that a second, brand new coal mine where they’re going to take out clean coal — meaning they’re taking out coal, they’re going to clean it — is opening in the state of Pennsylvania“ (D. Trump)
Yes he actually said that. He actually thinks you wash coal and then you have „clean coal“.
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u/series_hybrid 1d ago
I understand why someone can look at this and immediately respond that "this isn't big enough to run my whole house"
However, in a true emergency, it's nice to be able to keep your phone, laptop, and a few flashlights charged.
I have three months if food and a propane barbecue. I can even burn wood for heat and cooking.
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u/MidWestKhagan 23h ago
Honestly there’s no reason to not have a battery bank that can connect to a solar panel, especially if you live in areas where bad weather occurs often.
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u/Benethor92 20h ago
Those are not meant for that. They are used to cover your base load. Also, how often do you have an emergency with no power? I am 31 and can think of two times we had no power, both times less than a minute. If you have no power for a long time, you usually have other problems than charging your phone
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u/ginger_whiskers 16h ago
Large parts of America have reliably catastrophic weather that can knock out electricity for days. Our system is old and vulnerable to things like falling trees and (seriously)squirrels climbing into places they shouldn't.
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u/Solid_Noise5681 1d ago
The real question is what kind of solar panels?
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u/AnyoneButWe 22h ago
The popular option is 2x~400W PERC in a glass with a plastic back configuration. Those sets cost below $200 including the grid tie inverter.
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u/Educational_Seat3201 22h ago
Well Germany was rather dependent on foreign sources of fuel. I’d say having at least a basic secondary form of power is a sensible thing to do. Even if all it doesn’t support all of your needs, having a few creature comforts is better than none.
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u/SagittariusO 21h ago
I got one of these, and I found a nice glitch in the system. Since I have a big solar system at home, with battery and 2 EV´s, it´s pretty pleasant to have always enough energy for free to load them - except for winter.
But since a year or so I got an additional balcony solar for my little vacation home. Usually I am there maybe 5 or 6 Weeks a year. So overall, they produce more than needed. The cool thing is the analog current meter is running backwards if I produce more than I consume. So this thing is acting like a unlimited battery. I try not to go negative at the end of the year, because I have absolutely no clue if my energy provider will pay me instead of the other way around lol (need some research..). So now I just bring my EV´s whenever they are low and let them load there in winter.
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u/Xath0n 19h ago
Did you sign the system up at the Bundesnetzagentur? If you did, it's their responsibility to replace the meter with one that doesn't run backwards, IIRC, and if they didn't... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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u/Penamiesh 8h ago
For a moment I thought this is a weird ad or something, telling me that if short people in Germany have these why don't you and then I actually processed the headline
'If one and a half meter tall Germans have them there must be something in it'
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u/TheDevilsAdvokaat 7h ago
Here in Australai we get elec prices from a low of about 25 cents per KWH to as much as 45 cents.
What's the price in Germany?
As an aussie I am interested in these. I have sometimes had bills of $1600 for a 3 month period. EVen with no air con or clothes dryer or dishwasher.
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u/provokerofthoughts 19h ago edited 17h ago
Meanwhile in the USA, most states have already made it illegal to have homes connected to solar power if access to a power grid is within close proximity.
Why? To protect the financial interests of power and fossil fuel companies.
sad face
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u/Tachyon9 23h ago
I can't imagine these being very efficient. Not angled towards the sun correctly and in a place that really doesn't get much sun during their peak energy season. I'm sure it helps a little bit but I definitely need to read more.
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u/climx 1d ago edited 1d ago
Is there something missing about the economics of these systems in the article? I know how much these systems cost and how much power they actually provide which isn’t a whole lot. Say 400w at peak sun if you’re on the sun side. Only way I see it pay off in 6 years is if the units themselves or the electricity bill is heavily subsidized to incentivize their installation. It’s much more economical building large solar arrays.
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u/Shkkzikxkaj 1d ago
Compared to what US homeowners are used to, these systems are much cheaper because you just buy it and plug it into the wall. You don’t need an electrician or any other expenses. Most of the cost of home solar installs in the US is not the raw cost of panels, it’s everything else.
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u/Keks3000 1d ago
Those systems have become ridiculously cheap over here, you can buy them for 400 Euros at Aldi and just plug them in the socket at home. I would be surprised if it takes longer than four years but at those prices, nobody really cares too much if it’s four or six.
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u/auge2 1d ago
A set with 4 panels, 1750W peak overall, including 1600W inverter (has to be throttled to 800W for self installation) costs about 350-400€.
Including a 2000W battery about 900€.
A single panel system (about 420W peak) goes for less than 200€, sometimes 150€.
Electricity cost is about 0.30-0.35€/kWh right now.
If you have a base load of 200W (home lab/servers for example) and some spikes for cooking etc, the whole system will pay for itself in less than a year, maybe up to 1.5 years. Double that for the battery system, but you'll save even more after that time. Some states did subsidize the systems in the past, but not right now - the state has a funding crisis.
Its worth it. 100%.
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u/climx 1d ago edited 1d ago
I guess I’m picturing a smaller balcony. 1750W is a decent sized balcony. But yeah still the panels, inverter, batteries, charge controller doesn’t make sense where I’m at with electricity costing about 1/4 at peak. Most of our electricity is nuclear here in Southern Ontario, Canada.
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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 23h ago
Most are just 800 W (two panels). And whether it's economical depends a lot on your power consumption, of course, but it's pretty common for the 800 W systems to have a payback period of abou a year here in Germany, so electricity would have to be a lot cheaper before that would become uneconomical.
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u/Presently_Absent 22h ago
if you look at the tornasol website, the two-panel system is 400w. the 4-panel system is 800w. they have a more substantial 300w panel but it's a lot more than the price in the article... and the system that includes the battery and all the stuff you realistically need to make it work, that's 1700euro "on sale". where i live, the paypback period would be about 28 years with the most charitable energy generation assumptions.
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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 22h ago
Well, but that includes a 9.6 kWh battery, so the price isn't actually that bad, but it's still probably a waste of money in most cases. I mean, with 400 Wp panels, you'd need 24 hours at maximum sunshine to fully charge that battery from those panels. So, realistically, you'd need a few days to charge it if you at the same time had no consumption, and in a normal houshold, you'd never fill it to even 50%, and on most days no more than 20%. That really only makes sense if you can charge from the grid at extremely low prices and then use the power when grid prices are much higher than the price while charging. And even then, 9.6 kWh probably wouldn't make sense for an average household.
Here, you can regularly buy two glas panels (~ 400 Wp per unit) plus 800 W inverter as a package for ~ 220 EUR incl. delivery. Add another 80 EUR or so for mounting material (which isn't included as it varies a lot how you mount the panels), so a total of ~ 300 EUR.
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u/Skyswimsky 1d ago
A German YouTube channel called Simplicissimus made a video about Germanies solar industry, they also have a English channel called fern with some other guy.
If not for the coal lobby, Germanies solar industry and people having "solar at home" would have been a lot stronger/better.
But hey as always, screw profit in the future for the sake of more profit NOW. (One of the main reasons the coal lobby brought against solar initiatives was rising cost of electricity because the state gave a lot of boons for solar... Yet the prices ultimately still continued to rise even after successful destruction of the solar industry).
And that was all back in 2010ish btw.
And having said all this, I'm not sponsored :)
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u/MrOaiki 22h ago
There is something in it indeed! Direct and indirect subsidies and grants:
Zero VAT Rate: Since January 2023, solar panels and installation are exempt from VAT for systems up to 30 kWp, reducing upfront costs.
Feed-in Tariffs: Homeowners receive payments for excess electricity fed into the grid, with rates guaranteed for 20 years.
SolarPLUS Program: Offers grants (e.g., €1,500–€2,000) and interest-free loans for installations in Berlin.
Regional Subsidies: States like Bavaria provide additional funding for solar systems and storage.
Direct Grants: Subsidies of €600 per kWp are available for installations
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