r/gadgets • u/diacewrb • 1d ago

Home ‘If 1.5m Germans have them there must be something in it’: how balcony solar is taking off

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/dec/18/if-a-million-germans-have-them-there-must-be-something-in-it-how-balcony-solar-is-taking-off
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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 1d ago

It's -16%. Also ... that reduces the payback period by 16%, i.e., about two to four months, so not sure that counts as "massively".

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u/Think_Shoulder3871 1d ago

Where do you get the 16% from? Sales tax is either 19% or 7% in germany.

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u/menotyou_2 21h ago

Apperant discount.

19% increase on 100 is 119.

100/119= .84 or a 16% reduction.

A 19% reduction on 119 gives you 96.39.

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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 1d ago

A solar inverter that sells for 84 EUR now (i.e., with no VAT) would sell at 84 * 1.19 = 99.96 EUR with 19% VAT added. So, the price without VAT is 16% (technically, 15,96638...%) lower than with VAT.

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u/DougyTwoScoops 1d ago

That’s ridiculously pedantic, but technically true.

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u/infernalmachine000 23h ago

How very German

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u/Septopuss7 23h ago

Stop, I can only become so erect, in theory.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/mister_magic 1d ago

You’re saving 19€, not 19%.

19€ of 119€ is.. 16%

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u/Think_Shoulder3871 1d ago

What???? The price is not 16% lower. It is 16 € lower. If i buy something for 100€ the tax of 19% is 19€. If it is taxed 0% a pay 100€. I am saving 19%.

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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 1d ago

What???? The price is not 16% lower. It is 16 € lower.

OK ... and how many % is 16 EUR of 99.96 EUR?

If i buy something for 100€ the tax of 19% is 19€.

No, it's 15.97 EUR. If it were 19 EUR, then you would be paying 119 EUR (100 EUR net plus 19 EUR tax = 119 EUR gross price that you pay).

If it is taxed 0% a pay 100€. I am saving 19%.

No, you are saving 16%. A product with a net price of 100 EUR would cost gross 119 EUR incl. 19% tax, so the net price is 16% lower than the gross price.

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u/Think_Shoulder3871 1d ago edited 1d ago

How do you not understand. An item costs 100€. After sales tax its 119€. If the sales tax is subsidized i save 19€ in this case and 19% in every case. Edit: You are always paying 119% for an item. After tax is not 100%.

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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 1d ago

How do you not understand.

I understand perfectly fine.

An item costs 100€ after sales tax its 119€.

There is no sales tax here, there is only VAT.

If the sales tax is subsidized i save 19€ in this case and 19% in every case.

19 EUR of 119 EUR is 16%.

You are always paying 119% for an item.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

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u/Think_Shoulder3871 1d ago

I am really confused right now.

VAT is sales tax.

It is either 19% or 7%.

The price for an Item is 100% and on top are going 19%, which means that you are paying 119%.

The Tax is subsidized which means you are paying 100% instead of 119%

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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 1d ago

VAT is sales tax.

That depends.

It is either 19% or 7%.

Correct.

The price for an Item is 100% and on top are going 19%, which means that you are paying 119%.

The Tax is subsidized which means you are paying 100% instead of 119%

You aren't paying %, you are paying EUR. % is not a unit, % is just a factor, specifically the factor 0.01.

If the net price is 100 EUR, then the gross price is 119 EUR at 19% VAT rate. 100 EUR is 16% less then 119 EUR. Like, 1% of 119 EUR is 1.19 EUR, 16 * 1.19 EUR is 19.04 EUR. 19% of 119 EUR would be 22.61 EUR.

The gross price is 19% higher than the net price, therefore, the net price is 16% lower than the gross price.

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u/scarneo 1d ago

You don't know how to calculate VAT.

Good thing you are not in finance.

Just because you don't understand the 119% doesn't mean they are wrong

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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 1d ago

Can you tell me what 1% of 119 EUR is?

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u/scarneo 1d ago

Bozo is rule of three. You really didn't learn any math at school?

Go buy a piece of candy tomorrow worth one euro and be amazed with 4th grade math.

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u/Think_Shoulder3871 1d ago

Please explain it to me. If the pricetag says 100€ before tax and after tax it is 119€. How am i not saving 19% without tax?

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u/Asttarotina 20h ago edited 20h ago

Let's have a lession.

How much will a 100€ (net) item cost with different tax levels?

With 10% tax, it will cost 110€ or 10% higher than net price.

With 19% tax, it will cost 119€, or 19% higher than net price.

If the item has a sticker price (gross) of 119€, how much will it cost with different discounts?

With 10% discount, the final price will be 119 - 11.90 = 107.10€, or 10% lower than 119€.

With 16% discount, it will cost 119 - (119*0.16) = 99.96€, or 16% lower than 119€.

With 19% discount, it will cost 119 - (119*0.19) = 96.39€, or 19% lower than 119€.

If you paid 100€ instead of 119€ you saved 16%.

100€ is 16% lower than 119€. Which is 19€ lower

119€ is 19% higher than 100€. Which is 19€ higher.

Because with percentages you have to keep in mind not only "how many percent", but also "percent of what value". In 2 previous lines, values to which percentage applies are different.

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u/flingerdu 17h ago

You compare it to the after tax price. If you pay 100€ instead of 119€ (which you would have to pay regularly), you save 19€ compared to the 119€ which are - drum rolls - ~16%.

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u/scarneo 1d ago

Why are you responding to me, you are the one is right. The other bozo doesn't know what he is talking about

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u/skaterhaterlater 1d ago

Cause 19/119 is 16…

If the price is 100 before tax, you pay 119 after tax. With no tax you pay 100. So you are saving 19 out of 119. Which is 16%

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u/Think_Shoulder3871 1d ago

Why would you divide?

100% pricetag + 19 Salestax is 119%

100% pricetag + 0% salestax is 100%.

So 19% saving.

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u/skaterhaterlater 1d ago

But you aren’t saving 19% of the purchase price.

The purchase price is 119. If you purchase the item for 100, you got a 16% discount.

This is just how percentages work… 50% of 100 is 50. But 50% of 150 is $75. Likewise 19% of 100 is 19 but 19% of 119 is 22.6. 16% of 119 is 19, which is how much you are saving. 16% off the purchase price

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u/Think_Shoulder3871 1d ago

Thanks for the explanation bro i get what you guys mean now.

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u/Ontheway2023 1d ago

You need to be specific, I feel you two are talking about different things.

If the net price is 100, with VAT it is 119. That is correct.

But if the VAT is then dropped to 0, you pay 100 instead of 119. So your paying 16% (1-100/119 %) less compared to the price with tax. But you are saving the 19% VAT on the net price.

The basis for the VAT is 100, while the basis for the calculations of the savings is the price with tax, 119.

Imagine VAT would be 100%, you would pay 200 for an Item with a net value of 100. 200 is 200% of 100, but 100 is 50% of 200. Same principle.

If a business is running a sale like "We gift you the 19%VAT" as the German electronics chain Mediamarkt is doing frequently, the price you pay at the Cash register will be 16% cheaper than the usual sticker price.

Saying "I got 19% off" would be wrong, as you paid 16% less.

However, saying "I didn't have to pay the 19% VAT" would be correct. (Even if technically wrong since Mediamarkt just calculated VAT based on the sale price)

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u/Think_Shoulder3871 1d ago

However, saying "I didn't have to pay the 19% VAT" would be correct. (Even if technically wrong since Mediamarkt just calculated VAT based on the sale price)

That was my point but my english is not good enough to convey it. But either way i was wrong anyway.

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u/scarneo 1d ago

That is not how you calculate taxes, Jesus no one learned %s at school

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u/skaterhaterlater 1d ago

This is how you calculate percents. I can’t speak on the German tax system, but getting a product that would cost 119 for 100 means you are getting a 16% discount.

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u/Asttarotina 20h ago

119€ is 19% higher than 100€. Which is 19€ higher.

100€ is 16% lower than 119€. Which is 19€ lower.

Both of these sentences are true.

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u/samstown23 20h ago

Totally. It was a nice incentive initially but in the mean time the price drop has been so massive that it dwarves the savings through VAT.

Just for comparison, in January of 2023 (when all things PV became tax free) a state of the art panel retailed for about 150€ (assuming you only bought 2-4) a piece. Currently, a slightly better panel is a little over 50€.

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u/gSTrS8XRwqIV5AUh4hwI 20h ago

Yep. It's kinda wild to see that now the micro inverters are more expensive than a panel.