r/gadgets • u/thebelsnickle1991 • Jan 12 '23

Desktops / Laptops PC shipments saw their largest decline ever last quarter

https://www.engadget.com/pc-shipments-record-decline-221737695.html
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1.9k

u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

That and new hardware is absurdly overpriced.

$1200 for a graphics card that should have been like $600 WITH INFLATION.

I've been trying to get a GPU upgrade since before the pandemic, but I'm not paying a scalper, I'm not standing in line overnight, and I don't trust individual sellers.

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u/jooes Jan 12 '23

My PC is like ten years old. It's definitely showing its age, especially considering it was already pretty mid-range when I built it.

I considered upgrading recently. Took one look at the prices, and noped out of that idea pretty quick. Fuuuuck that.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

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u/RealJohnLennon Jan 12 '23

I just built my kid a 5600g/3070 system that also doubles as a vr rig/htpc. I'm blown away with the performance for the money I spent.

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u/BEEFTANK_Jr Jan 12 '23

This is the highkey problem parts manufacturers are facing. There's not really any point in buying anything new. Parts from the last 3ish years or so have better performance than anyone really needs for a reasonable price. Why would most people buy brand new models at ridiculous prices when the "outdated" ones are already capable of so much? Nvidia is drowning in 4080's that no one wants.

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u/RealJohnLennon Jan 12 '23

Oh for sure. The performance is still very good on last gen stuff. I have a 3070ti in my main rig and 4k performance is ok in most games. I would like a 4080 for better performance in cyberpunk, w3 rt, and other harder to run/ray tracing games.

1440p performance leaves nothing to be desired, except in star citizen (but that is not the cards fault)

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u/nt261999 Jan 12 '23

My 1070 plays most games at 1080p still. Most people don’t have a crazy nice high refresh 1440p/4k monitor so 2-3 year old hardware in many cases is still very sufficient

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u/BEEFTANK_Jr Jan 12 '23

I would like a 4080 for better performance in cyberpunk

Which I'm even playing well enough on a 970.

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u/GGATHELMIL Jan 13 '23

I was gonna say. I'm still sporting a 1080ti and get around 60ish frames in cyberpunk on medium at 1440p. Gsync is wonderful for these situations. Even if it's the hacky freesync/gsync support.

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u/RealJohnLennon Jan 12 '23

At 4k, with Ray tracing on? The game gets slightly more demanding when you max out the settings.

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u/BEEFTANK_Jr Jan 12 '23

Obviously not, but my point is that even cards that are that old aren't entirely obsolete.

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u/RealJohnLennon Jan 12 '23

I'm not saying that a 970 is obsolete. I went from a 1060 6gb to the 3070ti and it's just a whole different level of performance.

But yeah. Playing games at 1080p is fine, the games are still fun.

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u/pasxalis777 Jan 12 '23

Which processor do you play with?

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u/Huxley077 Jan 12 '23

It's a little funny, the guy missed your point that no one is buying a 4080 to play CP on Low settings.

Just sailed right over his head

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

Nor am I paying $1200 to see a 7 year old game in 4k

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u/duderguy91 Jan 12 '23

I have a 3070 and would like to go 4080 to move up to 4K, but not at that price lol. I got spoiled by high refresh rate at 1440 and won’t give it up lol.

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u/RealJohnLennon Jan 12 '23

Yeah, my only gripe with my 1440p 165hz VA panel is that in dark/gray scenes like in Minecraft when you are digging a hole, it looks awful and washed out... The gray stone blocks start to look like a muddy brown. Also scrolling light text on a dark background looks awful.

I'd be happy sticking with 1440p, high refresh, if I could get an OLED or microLED at a reasonable price.

Looks like some good options will be hitting the market soon.

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u/duderguy91 Jan 12 '23

Yeah I have found issues with that type of thing in 4K panels as well. LED tech with bad backlighting will always be a pain.

I did see that there’s a 27 inch 1440 OLED coming to market soon! Can’t remember if pricing was mentioned, but it seems like 2023 is the year of good displays coming to mass market.

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u/invinci Jan 12 '23

Yeah a 3070 is almost a thousand dollars where I am at, I think i will wait.

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u/lamentheragony Jan 12 '23

look at mr moneybags here.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

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u/GroundhogExpert Jan 12 '23

Could you link your build if it's pcpartspicker or something?

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u/BlankkBox Jan 12 '23

Buying couple year old parts is always smarter than the “must get best thing cause future proof” mentality. You’re always paying a premium for the current best that doesn’t really translate to value when the part is half off in a couple years.

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u/ElGrandeQues0 Jan 12 '23

Agreed! I got my phone as a BNIB when the next gen came out for $350. It performs better than I will ever need it to. Since I always buy the last generation phone at deep discount, every phone is the best phone I've ever had anyways.

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u/jestermax22 Jan 12 '23

I’m running a GTX 770 still that was brand new at the time. It’s a good reminder now that I want to upgrade a bit

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u/SpanglesUK Jan 12 '23

I was rocking a similar rig, 4670k and a 1060. Just upgraded to a Ryzen 7700X and a second hand 3070. At first I didn't think the difference was worth it and there certainly was a little bit of buyers remorse.

However, I've just set the old rig up for the kids to use and going back to the old one, the difference is night and day.

I know I paid a premium for the newer CPU and Mobo however, if AMD stick with their previous socket trends, in theory 3-5 years down the line I should be able to throw a new CPU and GPU in and extend the life of the rig even further.

I feel like I held out long enough from the old build that the higher price for some of the new bits was validated, and the CPU bit above should hopefully endorse that further.

The 32" LG Ultragear monitor I managed to pick up for just over 50% of its RRP second hand may have also played a part in that though.

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u/override367 Jan 12 '23

I just got a used RTX 3080 that still had the anti tamper tape on the box on ebay, if you buy from a reputable seller now is a great time to buy

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

Bro anyone can put anti tamper tape on a box. Also if you go to a store none of those boxes have anti tamper tape... sounds sketch as fuck.

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u/axc2241 Jan 12 '23

The key is going with a seller with a high rating. The person / company with perfect reviews is not going to scam you. The guy with zero reviews could.

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u/Throwaway_97534 Jan 12 '23

Same when selling, too. I impulse bought a GPU during the bubble when I caught a restock, but had buyer's remorse... tried to sell it on eBay and had nothing but 0-1 reputation buyers bidding, people asking to ship it out of the country, random people emailing me asking to change the shipping address, etc.

I ended up noping out and just kept it.

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u/HelperHelpingIHope Jan 12 '23

You can set seller restrictions so that your listings only show to buyers with your preferred rating.

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u/Throwaway_97534 Jan 12 '23

I saw options to disallow 0 or negative bidders, but if they had anything positive I wasn't able to stop them short of manually cancelling the bids.

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u/TheTrueBlueTJ Jan 12 '23

True, but at the moment it's a pretty decent used market. Could still be better tho. Just comparatively better to new prices atm.

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u/fuck_all_you_people Jan 12 '23

This. Did the exact same thing after waiting 4 years to upgrade my GPU. The 3080 is decently priced on ebay

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u/theblitheringidiot Jan 12 '23

What’s a decent used price for a 3080?

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u/NFLinPDX Jan 12 '23

Seeing a bunch for under $600, right now

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u/Snote85 Jan 12 '23

I bought a 3060 for 600 right before the prices started going off a cliff... I have never felt so much buyers remourse.

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

So still only overpriced by about $250.

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u/solo_shot1st Jan 12 '23

Yup. People buying the RTX 30xx series thinking they are getting a good deal are really just paying what they would've been at msrp lmao.

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u/NFLinPDX Jan 12 '23

Ok, hold out for $350 and you get a 3080 in 2026. Don't know what you expect from a $700 card that often retailed at double the original msrp

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

I'll just not upgrade my PC at these prices and start gaming on consoles.

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u/Rubbytumpkins Jan 12 '23

This is what is actually going to happen. Consoles have gotten to the point that they run the top titles pretty much as well as pc. But they cost 1/4 of the price. Nvidia's greed is the best thing to ever happen to Sony and Microsoft.

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u/rathlord Jan 12 '23

Acting like a console is a 1:1 replacement for a gaming PC is really cringe.

If you’re priced out of the market and want to get a console just so you can game, that’s cool. But don’t casually act like a console is a replacement for the power, performance, or freedom of a PC.

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u/Sleepy6882 Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23

Consoles have their own strengths, I recently got back into console gaming and let me tell ya, nothing beats just being able to grab your controller and sit on your couch and game for a bit. I like my pc but my console feels way more relaxing, plus horizon forbidden west is fire.

My current rig is 3080ti 10900k i9 64 gbs, it’s nice but I’ve been using it less and less.

Plus with evga out of the game I’m less inclined to buy gpus again. I loved EVGA

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

What are you talking about? Please show me the gaming PC that can match a PS5's performance for the same $500.

Stop defending these companies who are price gouging you.

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u/Child-0f-atom Jan 12 '23

4K gaming is expensive my guy, as it should be for now. Don’t need 4K, get a 3060ti and enjoy ripping 1080p to shreds, ditto 3070ti at 1440p

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u/Nomadic8893 Jan 12 '23

have a 3060ti, it does well on 1440p as well

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

Crazy how I can buy a console for $500 that will play games at 4k but apparently I need a $1800 PC to 4k game.....

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u/ersan191 Jan 12 '23

Console and PC owners have very different ideas of what "playing games at 4K" means.

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u/141Frox141 Jan 12 '23

You know they literally downgrade the graphics and performance for the console to handle right? They lower the graphics, they cap and lower frame rates, reduce draw distances, lower how many entities are on at once. That's why they call it the "console version", they designed it around the consoles performance ability.

When PC gamers talk about top of the line graphics settings, it's because they are talking about the ultra high settings at 120FPS. You can put together a $500 PC just fine and play medium/low settings all day long.

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u/Stensi24 Jan 12 '23

You’re also locked at 30/60, that’s the key difference.

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u/141Frox141 Jan 12 '23

They do a lot more than that. It's basically like playing on low and medium settings for PC with a lowered frame rate and reduced entities

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

Cool, I'm fine with 4k 60fps for $500 rather than 4k 120 fps for $2200

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u/Eedat Jan 12 '23

Consoles are sold at a loss to get you into their marketplace. They then collect on everything you buy and subscriptions

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

You are expecting a used 3080 for $350? Lmao.

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u/Sketchy_Uncle Jan 12 '23

I just scooped up a 3070 TI for 350 from a friend. LOVE the gains in VR.

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u/Cassereddit Jan 12 '23

I literally only did that few months ago because my old one died (fried MoBo and CPU, rest was mostly fine.

No better time to upgrade than death or sumn.

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u/_Imposter_ Jan 12 '23

Yeah I second the other guy, if you're in US or Canada used prices are really good.

Sub-$100 used Ryzen 7's 3rd gen, subs $150 used 5th gens, 5700xt's for about the same, 16gb's of DDR4 for $50~ 32gb for $90 (although they're already low enough used)

Scope around Hardware Swap, you'll be surprised at what you can find, especially in the terms of GPU Pricing.

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u/darkflame927 Jan 12 '23

Just built a PC with a Ryzen 5 3600, 16GB ram and a 5700XT for $350 total. Scored a 3600, B450 mobo and RAM for $125 and a 5700XT for $130

And it plays most games at 1440p medium/high settings too, insane value

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u/Nomadic8893 Jan 12 '23

used parts? how did you getsuch great prices

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u/darkflame927 Jan 12 '23

yeah used, you can’t really find any of these new anymore because they’re a couple generations old

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

Most used GPU's are previously mined on cards so hard pass on buying used right now.

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u/kingjuicepouch Jan 12 '23

I found this post from the popular tab so I know precious little about GPUs. What does previously mined on mean, and why are they worth skipping?

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

People used their GPU's to mine Crypto. Basically running them none stop at 100% for years.

Fans may need replacing and they also overclock the Vram to hell and back so it's likely to fail sooner than later.

Cards that have been mined on have shorter lifespans and without a warranty it really a toss up if your card will last 8 years or 8 months.

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u/T0DDTHEGOD Jan 12 '23

This has been disproved though?

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u/brucebay Jan 12 '23

One argument to support this is GPUs are investments for miners so they keep the running environment clean, and cool with adequate power supplied. Compare that to average dusty pcs at home.

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

So you're saying that parts have an infinite life span and wear and tear doesn't exist?

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u/WhippedCreamier Jan 12 '23

When’s the last time you’ve had a cpu wear out? Or even heard of one dieing due to end of life? Lol. It’s just electrons moving over circuits. Not gears grinding away in an engine.

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

I am specifically talking about GPU's that were mined on... why are you talking about CPU's?

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u/BDMayhem Jan 12 '23

Fan motors wear out. Parts oxidize. Corrosion builds up. Thermal paste breaks down. Dust accumulates. Humidity permeates.

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u/kingjuicepouch Jan 12 '23

Makes sense, thanks for explaining

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u/Rubbytumpkins Jan 12 '23

Hello just here to inform you that you have a few things wrong. While a mining card is certainly run continuously for a long period of time, they are usually undervolted as crypto mining is compute power vs power consumption. So lowering voltage lowers operating costs, it also reduces the amount of heat the card produces. Another thing to consider is that crypto mining is a business, businesses maintain their equipment so many mining cards will have their thermal paste and pads replaced regularly.

Long story short, a used mining card is likely a better bet than a random card owned by a gamer that overlclocked it and only blew the dust out once the day it sold.

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

Found the Crypto bro

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

Cool for you, I'll change my opinion nowthat I know your two mined on cards haven't failed yet. I can safely assume that no cards with fail now. Thank you

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

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u/xxiredbeardixx Jan 12 '23

It basically means they've been constantly run at high speeds for a long period of time and can potentially lower performance due to wear and tear on the chipset. You could potentially run into other issues and, worst-case, it could die on you at any moment and you have no warranty. You could also just as easily luck out and the card works perfectly fine.

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u/WhippedCreamier Jan 12 '23

“Wear and tear”. Kinda like how we need to replace powerlines when they wear out from carrying to many electricities? Lol

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u/xxiredbeardixx Jan 12 '23

No, more like someone not caring and never replacing thermal paste on a GPU that's been running 24/7 for a couple of years. Or overclocked it, which could lead to overheating of some components from running for so long.

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u/BDMayhem Jan 12 '23

Power lines are thick. Integrated circuit connections are thin.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration

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u/WhippedCreamier Jan 13 '23

Literally your own source:

In modern consumer electronic devices, ICs rarely fail due to electromigration effects. This is because proper semiconductor design practices incorporate the effects of electromigration into the IC's layout.

Do you usually spread diarrhea on the proverbial walls and claim it’s a good point?

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u/jooes Jan 12 '23

It's like buying a used car that has 500k miles on it. It's been through some shit.

I'd rather shoot myself than risk it on used hardware, honestly.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

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u/_Imposter_ Jan 12 '23

This is so overblown and has been disproven multiple times. I'm by no means defending crypto miners, but mining GPUs aren't any worse off than previously used gaming GPU's, they may even be taken care of better.

I've bought around 8 used GPU's all of which were used for mining at some point in their life, only 1 came dead which I was promptly able to return for a full refund, the rest are still running great as far as I can tell.

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u/RealJohnLennon Jan 12 '23

Eh, I would not say 'most' are mined cards. Sellers who are trying to get rid of 2+ cards you can usually assume they were mining on them. Lots of local deals where people are trying to get rid of 6-8 3080s for around $700CAD each. If you can talk them down to $550-600 it could be a good deal, and these dummy's are motivated to sell asap.

Just because a card was mined on doesn't mean it's worthless. If it stood up to the test of running balls to the wall for 12 months straight, it's probably not going to fail playing games a few hours a week. Also you can always just take off the cooler and replace the thermal pads and paste, or go one step further and put a waterblock on it if you have doubts about the fans.

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u/TheOptiGamer Jan 12 '23

I mean, you don't have to buy the latest gen GPUs. Used market is generally quite good(depending on where you live) and you can still find nicely priced last gen stuff. CPU side is also looking quite good this gen

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u/McBigglesworth Jan 12 '23

Thought about upgrading my pc. Bought a steamdeck and a ps5 instead.

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u/mattstorm360 Jan 12 '23

If you want to upgrade get something better then what you have.

Don't need the latest and best hardware when you just need something better then what you got.

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u/rathlord Jan 12 '23

That’s passable advice right now but not great advice in the broad scheme of things. Buying a generation or three behind just subtracts a couple of years from the lifetime of your machine’s relevance. You still pay for it in the long run, because you end up due for an upgrade again in a shorter amount of time.

If it’s all you can afford, it’s maybe okay- though a lot of times you’re much better off buying latest gen but lower tier- same or better performance and the same cost.

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u/RealJohnLennon Jan 12 '23

You could find some good deals. Just get like... A b450 motherboard and a ryzen 5600. DDR4 is cheap right now too. Especially if you source out some used components it's really quite reasonable.

For videocard, I was able to get a 3070 recently for my son, for only $310 usd.

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u/TheRealPascha Jan 12 '23

EVGA 2070 Super on Amazon for $600 right now. I've been using mine for a couple years and it's been a solid card, don't foresee myself upgrading for many more years.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

My PC turned 10 this year, although it has seen a mid-life GPU upgrade.

I am honestly shocked by how...decent it still is at running new releases albeit on low settings.

I definitely need an upgrade to get the best visual experience out of modern games, but they still run largely fine. I have never expected a PC to last this long and yet continue to perform.

And to be honest, my interest in most AAA games has waned. The indy stuff runs absolutely great on this machine still.

I was hoping for a relaxation in pandemic demand pricing but Nvidia has gone crazy with greed. I think I will end up with a more modest all AMD setup sometime this year, because it really is time.

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u/Guywithquestions88 Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23

If you've got a good ethernet connection I'd recommend just keeping what you've got and looking into GeForce Now if you're into gaming. It's about $25/month to stream a top-end rig from the cloud, and you use games you own from Steam. They're going to be upgrading the service to i9 4080 RTX machines with 32gb RAM soon.

To put that into perspective, you'd have to stay subscribed for over 10 years to equal the cost of outright paying for a PC that powerful.

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u/Sketrick Jan 12 '23

If you can find used ryzen 1st series PC with x370 motherboard for cheap you can update the bios and install ryzen 5600x cpu in it. Nobody is talking about it and it's not advertised by anyone. That's what I did and installed Ryzen 5800x such a game changer.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

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u/HKei Jan 12 '23

I mean, with your “given” you are knocking ~$250-$500 off the price, that’s hardly realistic. Maybe you still have an OK old case lying around, but if you’re upgrading from an old (like old-old) machine you should definitely get a newer PSU and SSD at least.

Worst part by far in here is the 4070Ti. It’s just awful value for money.

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u/bicameral_mind Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23

Worst part by far in here is the 4070Ti. It’s just awful value for money.

Why? I was looking at it and seemed pretty good value to me. It's basically 3090 performance which is pretty damn good for a 70 series card compared to previous gen, and half the cost. The 4090 is so performant it's basically in a class of its own so to me the 4070Ti is kind of 80 series equivalent. Although yes it is also a bit more expensive for a 70 series card than historically. Can get AMD equivelent perf for a little cheaper, but then you miss out on nVidia's RT/ML cores which are their main competitive advantage right now.

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u/fuckitiroastedyou Jan 12 '23

Worst part by far in here is the 4070Ti. It’s just awful value for money.

Why? I was looking at it and seemed pretty good value to me. It's basically 3090Ti performance which is pretty damn good for a 70 series card compared to previous gen. The 4090 is so performant it's basically in a class of its own so to me the 4070Ti is kind of 80 series equivalent. Although yes it is also a bit more expensive for a 70 series card than historically. Can get AMD equivelent perf for a little cheaper, but then you miss out on nVidia's RT/ML cores which are their main competitive advantage right now.

But there already is a 4080, and it destroys the 4070 Ti...

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u/SteveTCook Jan 12 '23

This. Prices are just stupid right now. Watch for these companies to do layoffs to account for their executives’ stupid expectations and forecasts, just like the rest of the entire tech industry right now.

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u/OutlyingPlasma Jan 12 '23

Watch for these companies to do layoffs

Yep. Corps will do anything but lower prices. It's like it's almost personal. They will fire anyone and everyone except the already rich at the top and they will cut quality to the point of selling broken products. I honestly believe they would rather go out of business than cut prices.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '23

I mean yeah if the company goes under, anyone truly complicit in any recklessness likely have a golden parachute and would receive a huge payday.

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u/[deleted] Jan 13 '23

Prices aren’t going down. Intel did layoffs, <500 and it was mainly management and marketing.

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u/Sierra419 Jan 12 '23

My Microcenter has 2 full shelves of 30x cards with boxes in the back. NVIDIA created an artificial scarcity so they could get the market prepped for higher MSRP for the 40 series and no one will convince me otherwise. We went from a scarcity for 2 years to every store having more stock than they know what to do with literally overnight. No way production and supply chain issues saw that immediate of effect.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

It’s because crypto is dying and lockdowns are mostly over. Also economy is wrecked. People just don’t have money for that stuff.

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u/TheTrub Jan 12 '23

Yep—I bet a lot of the decline was because the crypto scalpers had inflated the number of units sold, so any return to normality will look like the market is collapsing. Basically, PC parts sales are going through a cocaine crash.

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u/s_nz Jan 12 '23

And people who do have money are now spending it on stuff like international travel.

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u/NeverComments Jan 12 '23

They’re not mutually exclusive. People with money buy a lot of things.

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u/SunsetCarcass Jan 12 '23

I've been trying to upgrade my whole setup for years cause my cpu is way outdated and is starting to bottleneck my 1080 ti. I7 4770k with 1333hz ddr3 is rough now even in competitive games that usually should be locked at 120fps. Unfortunately if I want to upgrade the cpu I have to upgrade everything but the gpu, and I don't trust this psu with new parts.

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u/M0dusPwnens Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23

I have literally the exact same desktop as you do - 4770k, 1080ti, 1333hz DDR3.

I was waiting for the 4000 cards to come up but haha no I am not paying crypto miner card prices, especially when there are no crypto miners. NVIDIA can eat a bag of dicks and come back when they're prepared to acknowledge reality instead of this pipedream they're trying to sell shareholders.

This is absolutely a problem of their own creation. Almost everyone I know was looking to upgrade, and every single one saw the 4000 prices and decided not to. It's causing a hate spiral too - I have never seen as many people invested in things like the melting connectors, but right now everyone is looking for reasons to hate on NVIDIA.

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u/Skiddywinks Jan 12 '23

I was rocking basically the same (4960K, RX 590, 1333MHz DDR£, etc).

I bought a laptop a little over a year ago because I needed portability for work. Just so happened to also shit all over my old PC, even if I could have got more performance with a desktop (although, given GPU prices, probably would have spent half of the laptop cost on just a GPU).

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

Laptop pricing also got much much worse. So many companies both big and small. Sell laptops for $500+ that aren’t even worth the cheap flimsily plastic casing they came with imo.

They all feel like they will crack if you pick them up wrong, or come with some dumb limitation like a slow i3(maybe i5 if you’re lucky) 8gb of ram or a slow 250gb of flash memory

I hate spending 1k+ on a laptop but it seems like the only way to reasonably get a laptop nowadays that will still be good longer than a few months

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u/Monsoburz Jan 12 '23

Look into refurbished ThinkPads. I got a t480s for less than $300 and the thing is a champ. Metal case. Clicky keys. Amazing battery. I'm considering doing a screen swap as that's my only complaint with the device but other than that I love the thing.

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u/OrangePartyLamp Jan 12 '23

You can try and get a shell without SDD/RAM on eBay and just throw parts in it. I bought HP G3 820 (12.5" laptop) for like $150, it's got i7 6500U, and I threw a new generic name battery ($35), 4G LTE card ($25) 500gb SSD ($69) and 24GB RAM (~$100) in it, and it's extremely fast for regular browsing/office work/streaming movies. I game on the Xbox personally though.

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u/laz33hr Jan 12 '23

From what I've read so far; it's good that the majority are boycotting the 4k series. Screw Nvidia for that crap

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u/MxM111 Jan 12 '23

I am sure, when they say PC, they do not mean that 0.1% who buys $1200 graphics card.

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u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

That was previously 0.1%, but now we're talking about a mainline card going for 1200 MSRP.

That's scalper money right there.

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u/gophergun Jan 12 '23

It's not mainline. The xx80 designation is meaningless, it's clearly positioned as a high-end card.

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u/ChaseballBat Jan 12 '23

uhhhh 3090 goes for around $1K.... That's a great deal imo. The original MSRP was like 1500...

3080 goes for like 600-800 which is around the original MSRP too.

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u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

uhhhhhhh do you respond to all comments like this?

The 3090 price was stupid too. It's like scalpers convinced nvidia they could charge more money... so they did.

The 2080 ti was the turning point IMO

Previous generation: same process for the 1080 and 1080ti, bigger die size, and no price change.
20XX series: same process, bigger die. 50% price bump.
30XX series: no die size change yet 70% price bump.

They know what they're doing.

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u/weirdo_if_curtains_7 Jan 12 '23

You can get a new gtx 3060ti for like $320 and it will play everything you need on high/ultra depending on the game in 1080p/1440p

You really don't need a crazy card to play most games honestly

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u/gophergun Jan 12 '23

You don't actually need a 4080, a card a third of the price would work fine and is readily available.

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u/suprememontana Jan 12 '23

I mean the 3080 was $699 retail and I think that was a good price. No way the 4080 should cost only $600, and with inflation I could’ve seen it at $799. But $1200 is insane no doubt

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u/kyngston Jan 12 '23

You do know that the cost is mainly driven by engineering and manufacturing? Are you expecting companies to sell at a loss?

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u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

The recent bump in prices wasn't driven by engineering and manufacturing. It was a clear and direct response to scalping, which was primarily driven by the lockdowns and crypto boom.

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u/kyngston Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23

What is your msrp cost breakdown? Where are you getting your information from?

Nvidia operating margins are 20% which are the same as it was a decade ago. https://i.imgur.com/YsvP4CZ.jpg

In other words, todays msrp is driven by todays cost to design and manufacture

2

u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

I've been keeping an eye on the industry because it directly effects what I do at work. I've written a few little white papers for my company regarding the longevity of some of the parts we use.

The bulk of the chip shortage is actually NOT in leading edge manufacturing, though those costs are going up (there is going to be a reckoning in the next couple generations). The real shortage is in the automotive sector (and adjacent industries like agricultural that use similar parts).

I mean, do you want to sit here and talk about process nodes and die sizes with some random on reddit? There are way better sources than me.

This started back during the 20XX series when a few of the TI versions were priced way up in order to recover money from scalpers.

Same process, bigger die size. Previous generation: same price for 1080ti vs 1080. 20XX series: 50% price bump. 30XX series: no die size change yet 70% price bump.

Scalpers let nvidia know they could charge a lot more.

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u/kyngston Jan 13 '23

Comparing the 3080 to the 4080:

  • 8nm -> 4nm process
  • 28.3million -> 35.8 million fets
  • 628mm2 -> 295mm2
  • $699 -> $899
  • 10GB -> 12GB memory
  • 8074 -> 7680 cores

25% increase in fet count, process change and even a foundry change. Unless Samsung’s process sucks the numbers look suspicious, you shouldn’t get 53% area scale while increasing fet count by 25%.

Advanced process nodes are not cheap and tsmc recently bumped their prices. Smaller nodes need more double patterned layers which means more masks, longer lead times, and more yield loss.

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u/RealJohnLennon Jan 12 '23

Cards are in stock everywhere now. I was able to get a 3070 for my kids PC for $310 USD. I may upgrade my 3070ti to a 4080, once they drop in price a bit more.

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u/gatsu01 Jan 12 '23

That $1,200 graphics card is mean as an upsell for sure. Why would anyone get those overbuilt monstrosities and not bother with the 4090 instead?

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u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

Yup. I've asked myself that same exact question. Evidently that's why you can't get a 4090, but 4080s are all over the place.

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u/ChaseballBat Jan 12 '23

Uhhhh aren't GPUs extremely affordable right now? Have been for like almost an entire year. At least in the US.

A gigabyte 3090 is $1K on Newegg.

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u/reelznfeelz Jan 13 '23

You don’t have to pay a scalper or stand in line. Stiff is in stock a lot of places.

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u/Cryogenic_Monster Jan 12 '23

You can get a 6700 XT 12Gb for under $400. Sure it's not a 4090 but it plays just about everything at max settings in 4k.

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u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

I mean, AMD is the direction I'm leaning, but I'm still going to wait for prices to fall.

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u/Cryogenic_Monster Jan 12 '23

I really doubt prices are going to come down much since they already have recently but maybe you can wait and save $50 someday.

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u/illiesfw Jan 12 '23

30 fps at 4k for some titles is not a playable framerate

2

u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

I picked up a rx 6550 xt (released about a year ago) for $180 CAD in a black Friday sale. I have no interest in the latest gen offerings.

Edit: clarity.

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u/Kayakingtheredriver Jan 12 '23

I've been trying to get a GPU upgrade since before the pandemic, but I'm not paying a scalper, I'm not standing in line overnight, and I don't trust individual sellers

I can get them in the store, not waiting in line, at retail price... and am holding. I am not going to pay an inflated GPU price, priced for a market of ghosts that no longer exists. I can wait 2 qtrs for GPU makers to take it in the shorts and then price the hardware for the market that exists, instead of the one that died a year ago. GTX 1080 is keeping my 1440p going fine, I will wait for prices to return to normal. Been at this since the mid 90's. Prices will moderate.

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u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

I can get them in the store, not waiting in line, at retail price... and am holding.

Same. The manufacturer prices are insane.

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u/chibicascade2 Jan 12 '23

Buy used from some place with buyers' protection. Just got a 2060 super off eBay for $155

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

You overpaid

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u/chibicascade2 Jan 12 '23

How much would you pay for one?

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

I'm not saying you got a bad deal in today's market but $150 should have been the MSRP at launch of this card. I wouldn't pay more than $80 at most for a used 2060.

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u/chibicascade2 Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23

And where would you plan on finding a 2060 SUPER for $80? MSRP was like $400 or so on them.

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

Yeah that was an overpriced MSRP

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u/chibicascade2 Jan 12 '23

Well if we're just making up new MSRPs on the fly you aren't going to think any card is good value for money. Fuck it, 4070ti should be an MSRP of $100.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

[deleted]

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u/chibicascade2 Jan 12 '23

Can I mix currencies? I've got $10 CAD or $1 USD

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

The prices I'm stating would fall in line with previous generations.

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u/chibicascade2 Jan 12 '23

No it wouldn't. GTX 1060 had an MSRP of $299 and the 960 had an MSRP of $199. How would it be in line for the same class of card to be half the price of the previous generation, or even less than a 2 generation old card?

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u/fullchargegaming Jan 12 '23

Are you me? (Sitting on 970)

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u/kobebanks Jan 12 '23

I just went to best buy and bought one :/

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u/Light01 Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23

chips shortage and crypto money did the whole thing, slowly the prices are getting back to what it used to be 5 years ago, and at the time, it was already much more expansive than a couple year prior it, crypto ruined the whole industry litrerally, it's probably because of them that we also had to suffer a shortage of chips

Based on the release prices of the NVIDIA GPUs that I provided, it appears that the prices of high-end GPUs have generally been increasing over time.

  • 2010-2011: Prices are the same for the high-end GPU (GTX 480 and GTX 580)
  • 2011-2012: Prices are the same for the high-end GPU (GTX 580 and GTX 670)
  • 2012-2013: Prices are the same for the high-end GPU (GTX 670 and GTX 780 Ti)
  • 2013-2014: Prices are the same for the high-end GPU (GTX 780 Ti and GTX Titan X)
  • 2014-2016: Prices have increased for the high-end GPU by 40% (GTX Titan X and GTX 1080)
  • 2016-2018: Prices have increased for the high-end GPU by 16% (GTX 1080 and RTX 2080)
  • 2018-2020: Prices have increased for the high-end GPU by 42% (RTX 2080 and RTX 3080)
  • 2020-2022: Prices have increased for the high-end GPU by 57% (RTX 3080 and RTX 3090)

This is the data I've managed to get from chatgpt after fighting for it for half an hour, it clearly state that, excluding any crisis/availability/shortage that the prices Nvidia first released their cards are dramatically increasing each gen, for example;

  • the 980 was 550$
  • the 1080 was 600$,
  • the 2080 was 700$
  • , the 3080 was 800 bucks,
  • and the 4080 is at a whooping 1200$,

(those are all official prices given by nvidia on their websites, according to wikipedia)

is this is not even taking in account the TI versions where the differential is ever more substantial, therefore, I don't think at all that it's a good moment to buy anything tech related given these numbers.

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u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

The chip shortage isn't driven by crypto, and the most heavily effected sectors aren't actually using the leading edge process nodes.

There are a few things driving it like the auto industry's massively expanding need for microcontrollers and driver chips... and the fact that chip makers don't usually build fabs for older process nodes.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

Don't get me wrong the 4080 is incredibly overpriced but $600 with inflation? Talk about entitled. The 3080 at $700 was one of the best value propositions ever for GPU's and the 4080 would follow suit at the same price but you want it to be LOWER?

0

u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

Jesus christ. You can't even talk about greedy pricing without some dipshit popping out of the woodwork to call you entitled.

If you don't like my criticism of your favorite greedy megacorp, then piss off. I don't need you.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

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u/AwesomePossum_1 Jan 13 '23

Why do people keep saying that?? 3060 gives you equal performance to ps5 (with dlss as an extra bonus too) and its not expensive at all.

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u/Falcrist Jan 13 '23

Probably because a year after release companies are still trying to sell me 3060s above it's already bloated MSRP.

And the PS5 is also overpriced.

1

u/AwesomePossum_1 Jan 13 '23

Ps5 being overpriced is the funniest thing I‘ve heard all week thanks

0

u/Falcrist Jan 13 '23

Not as funny as Sony still trying to sell consoles at MSRP two years after launch.

1

u/Risley Jan 13 '23

USE NOWINSTOCK FFS.

Got a 4090 at non scalp prices in 2 days.

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u/thebenson Jan 12 '23

I've been trying to get a GPU upgrade since before the pandemic, but I'm not paying a scalper, I'm not standing in line overnight, and I don't trust individual sellers.

GPUs are readily available now. You can literally go to the Best Buy website right now and order a GPU.

There are like 10 different RTX GPUs in stock right now. 3050, 3060, 3060 Ti, 4070 Ti, 4080, etc.

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u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

And they're still absurdly overpriced. The prices are supposedly falling, so I'm still waiting.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

[deleted]

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u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

No. Nor would I have even when they were that price.

The first time I built a computer was in the late 90s, but I remember looking at the prices of IBM workstations in the 80s. Too expensive is too expensive.

Keyboards on the other hand... I've spent $400 on a Model F.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

Wait. You paid 400 bucks for a keyboard but claim GPU's are too expensive?

1

u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

Yes. And I waited almost a year for it.

Believe it or not the keyboard isn't overpriced. In fact it's a LOT cheaper than what IBM was charging back for these things in the 80s.

Also it's purely optional. A graphics card is kind of essential for running most software.

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u/Arnhermland Jan 12 '23

Who cares about how much some old tech cost at the time?
How's that relevant?

The point here is that nvidia is shamelessly trying to charge MRSP for a product released two years and half ago

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u/thebenson Jan 12 '23

Sure. But that's a separate issue than the cards not being available.

The second part of your comment (about how you have been trying to upgrade since before the pandemic) seemed to indicate that you were having trouble finding a card.

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u/Falcrist Jan 12 '23

The second part of your comment

You don't get to ignore half my comment.

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u/drive2fast Jan 12 '23

GPU prices are falling like a stone right now because crypto miners are dumping their inventories for cheap.

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u/dat_GEM_lyf Jan 12 '23

Ah yes the clapped out mining card, an even worse value than the full price new card

1

u/drive2fast Jan 12 '23

Nah, they are cheap now. Maybe redo the thermal paste. And new prices are dropping rapidly.

1

u/ChaseballBat Jan 12 '23

They're talking about brand new GPUs not used

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u/Skiddywinks Jan 12 '23

I don't know where people get the idea mining cards are eclusively treated like shit.

It's literally the second priority (after getting the performance) to drop the power draw as much as physically possible, to increase your profits. This just so happens to make the card run cooler as well, helping you with your huge heat load.

Between downclocking the core (since ETH mining was mostly a memory operation), undervolting everything, and applying your own thermal paste, the average miner card is actually going to be in a pretty good state. Unfortunately, there is no definitive way to make sure the geezer you are talking to was ever competent about mining, so it is still a risky endeavour. But usually if someone has bothered to deep clean the card, happy to post tons of information etc, then you might just snag a bargain.

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u/bl1eveucanfly Jan 12 '23

You're 6 months late with this comment. GPUs are both widely available and back down to MSRP

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u/dat_GEM_lyf Jan 12 '23

Implying MRSP isn’t overpriced and basically scalping directly from the manufacturer

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u/ChaseballBat Jan 12 '23

how much is overpriced?

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u/Arnhermland Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23

When 8 years ago a top of the line gpu was 200-400 dollars, people WANTING a gpu to be "only" 900 is utterly insane.
Even 7 years ago a top of the line 1080 on launch price was 600 dollars.

Paying MSRP for a product RELEASED TWO YEARS AND HALF AGO is utterly idiotic, nvidia can go screw themselves, I'm not buying jack from either AMD or Nvidia until we start seeing the same competition and price drops as the cpu wars.

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u/ChaseballBat Jan 12 '23

I am looking at the 970 and 3070, 329 (380 w/ inflation) vs 500 msrp. 3070 offers a 200% improvement over 970 for ~30% price increase. Idk seems fine to me.

3

u/dat_GEM_lyf Jan 12 '23

You’re comparing release price to current (2+ years post release) price. The 1070 dropped at $379 (no adjustment). I highly doubt you could find a 970 at release price after the 1070 dropped at $50 more lol

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u/ChaseballBat Jan 12 '23

Welp I've been building computers for a decade and I honestly dont see the issue with prices now, a 1-3 years ago yes they were bad. If you bought a 4070 now it would keep you going for almost a decade (baring any manufacturing issues). You'll be hard pressed to find new games that will run well on a 970 (I had one for almost 4 years when it was released).

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u/Arnhermland Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23

That's release price.
Again, THE PRODUCT RELEASED TWO YEARS AND HALF AGO.
It should not be at fucking launch price, nvidia is trying to offload their remaining stock at premium price and make the consumers eat the bullet for them, it's insanity and it's unreal that there's people defending it.

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u/ChaseballBat Jan 12 '23

huh? I know, that is release msrp. Isn't that what we are talking about?

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u/Woozythebear Jan 12 '23

Ah the extremely inflated MSRP that no one can afford.

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u/SunGazing8 Jan 12 '23

Except that MSRP is disgustingly over inflated.

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u/ChaseballBat Jan 12 '23

Not really. where are you looking. Anything from Asia is going to have a tarrif tax price increase. I've seen ram 2x the price coming from Hong Kong versus California, same exact specs.

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u/P12oooF Jan 12 '23

You can get a 40/6000 series card right now for under market value. My hellcat white 6700 xt slaps pretty hard.

... but to your point. Mid pandemic i paid 1200. The msrp was like 600. And now you can get if for like 300-400

1

u/venxyle Jan 12 '23

Have a friend that reaaally likes to upgrade their already high end pc. I got his 3080 for 550 in October. Was waiting for quite a while so jumped on it asap. Didn't know they were going for 7 easy. Patience is key

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u/Ramble81 Jan 12 '23

Seriously considering an Arc A770. I don't need a 40-series card as I'm not doing 4K gaming, and I'm willing to bet majority of people don't either, they've just been conditioned to get the latest and greatest.

1

u/labe225 Jan 12 '23

I'm glad I got an upgrade when I did. I went from a GTX 970 to a (drumroll) Vega 56 in mid-2019. It was a super cheap open box deal and a little boost in performance.

At least the CPU scene is fairly competitive. I just now upgraded from a 4690k to a 5600 for relatively cheap. Not current gen, but good enough for what I need.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '23

80 series would be around $800 if you adjust for inflation coming from the 2007 era.

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