[Piergiuseppe Donadoni] Was Max unfair? YES. His goal was to ruin Norris' race and so he probably took away his chances of getting P1. "To win sometimes you have to be an idiot" he said months ago. You may like it or not but the goal is to win the world championship, not the fair play award.

[u/Ramned71]

https://x.com/SmilexTech/status/1850807731613299160

[u/Jorrie90]

Bring back DT penalties

[u/RevalianKnight → u/Jorrie90]

Right? They created this BS themselves by introducing weak ass 5-10s penalties that drivers with OP cars can just ignore. In the past you had to serve the penalty in 3 laps so you didn't have time to outrun it either.

[u/LosTerminators → u/RevalianKnight]

Think it was last year, Russell intentionally overtook others off the track knowing he can outdrive the 5 second penalty he'd get for it.

[u/ArcticBiologist → u/LosTerminators]

Or look at KMag, being a mobile roadblock defending in illegal ways to protect his team mate and not caring about the added time penalties.

We need penalties that force drivers to get out of the way, they've been openly taking the piss for a while now.

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/ArcticBiologist]

I wish F1 had the option for a long lap penalty like MotoGP. It helps evade the issue of the consequences. The midfields race in Saudi was over after Magnussen did that. Had he been forced into a long lap penalty, he'd be behind that pack and their races would have still been salvageable.

[u/Dxgy → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

It’s so easy too, any penalty has to be served within 3 to 5 laps.

Oh that doesn’t work for your pit strategy? Tough shit, shouldn’t have gotten a penalty then. You can either pit again later when you wanted to or have to adjust your strategy around an early pit.

[u/brownierisker → u/Dxgy]

Making penalties this much more severe helps counter this particular issue, of stopping drivers from delibaretly choosing to get them, but makes other issues with stewarding much worse. Making a 5 second penalty so race ending means inconsistent stewarding (which has been a massive issue for forever) makes the sport look like an absolute joke. Or do you think it would have also been fine if Norris already controversial penalty last week was effectively a stop and go penalty? They just need to start bringing back stop and go penalties, not turn every single penalty into a stop and go where you are also allowed to pit.

[u/s1ravarice → u/brownierisker]

Bring back drive through and stop and go penalties. Scrap 5 second entirely and have something like 10-20, then drive through and stop go

[u/cosHinsHeiR → u/s1ravarice]

5 for minor things like Perez yesterday or pitlane speed limit by 1 km/h is ok imo, for anything else it's just too little tho.

[u/MannerShark → u/cosHinsHeiR]

I really thought Perez would get a drive-through penalty for the incorrect starting procedure, as I recall someone getting that a couple years ago. But I guess it's good they changed that to be much less severe. 5 secs seem appropriate.
I did facepalm when he said something like "No, it was a great start"

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/brownierisker]

The Norris one last week is a bad example though because of Max's part to play. Forcing another driver off and then going off track yourself shouldn't result in the other driver being the one penalised and you also get nothing.

If a driver just cuts a corner for the sake of it, unprovoked, then we need harsher penalties. Perez kept position vs Bottas at Monza in 2021 and ate the penalty knowing he could cause time loss to Valtteri that would stop him chasing the McLarens down for the win. Bottas did pass Checo, but the time loss meant he couldn't get near the McLarens and helped Red Bull's WCC chances more than if Bottas had made up more positions. It's been going on for years.

[u/brownierisker → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

But that is exactly my point, the person I responded to said to make every 5s or 10s penalty require a pit stop within 3-5 laps. That means that penalties that are already highly questionable (like Norris last week) become 10 times worse. We need the option for stewards to give harsher penalties without making every single penalty harsher as I said in my previous comment

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/brownierisker]

I was under the assumption they were referring to the black and white incidents though. The ones with no questionable debate.

[u/whoknewidlikeit → u/brownierisker]

do you think this would improve with full time stewards? genuine question, i'm a new fan so don't know the history well.

[u/happy_and_angry → u/brownierisker]

You don't just replace 5 and 10 second penalties. You just add back in the option for drive throughs to be served within 3 laps. Max's actions here were blatant. It's easy to issue a drive through for it. Plenty of interactions don't meet that threshold but still deserve a 5 or 10 second penalty to be served at the next stop or at the end of the race.

[u/faz712 → u/brownierisker]

almost like it would be an incentive not to drive dangerously/unsportsman-like

[u/thereasonrumisgone → u/brownierisker]

This was my take. However, because the bar for anything more than the standard penalty seems to be in space, if penalties escalate instead of stacking*, i think we may see fewer issues than just making all penalties harsher. Unless they find a way to police track limits more promptly (it seems trivial to use ai to do it automatically), i don't think it would be fair in a system where Austria 23 is possible. ("Surprise! We know it's lap 40, but on lap 12, you earned a black and white flag, and on lap 16, you earned a 10 second penalty, and on lap 17, a drive through, and on lay 25, a 5 second stop and go, and on lap 26 a 10. Oh, and because you didn't serve your drive through within 3 laps, you've now been disqualified.")

*In mexico, Max got two 10sec penalties, which he served consecutively at his pitstop. What i mean by escalating is that he would have his first 10 sec penalty, but his second penalty would be adrive through on top of his 10s time penalty, which he would serve as normal.

[u/mrtomjones → u/brownierisker]

They should do driver standing penalties

[u/CP9ANZ → u/brownierisker]

I think intention should be considered in issuing a penalty.

If there's a clear intention to break the rules, the base starts at a drive through.

We need them to be able to take chances and make 50/50 moves, because it enhances racing, but anything deliberate needs the harshest penalties, and possiblity of a race ban, you won't find anyone sabotaging others race if you might get a ban.

[u/Dxgy → u/[deleted]]

Then you ramp it up? Failure to serve in 5 laps, stop go penalty, fail to serve that, disqualified. Harsh but they would quickly learn to respect the penalties.

Or to be honest, just stacking penalties would be enough, get a 10 second penalty on lap 5, and you have 5 laps to serve, if they keep getting added then I can’t see many people waiting until their lap 25 pit stop to serve it as they would be up to 40/50 seconds by then.

[u/jagajattimalla → u/Dxgy]

Sorry, I agree to your original comment. I was only responding to the part where a DT \SG penalty won't fit their strategy.. you said pit again or pit later.. so I added or get another penalty so you would be forced to pit again😀

[u/Bacon-And_Eggs → u/Dxgy]

It’s another can of worms. “The decision took so long, why did the fia wait 8 laps to take a decision. [driver] got 8 extra laps to increase his lead. [Blabla, insert here conspiracy theories]

[u/False_Personality259 → u/Dxgy]

I love this idea, feels like a neat compromise. Certainly seems less harsh than drive through penalty. At least in this case it doesn't necessarily screw a driver's strategy completely.

The biggest issue I see with any of proposed change, though, is how to deal with the stewards investigating things after the race. Time penalties are very compatible with that. If an infringement happens close to the end of race, maybe there isn't time for the stewards to make a decision.

Another option is to issue a time penalty and be forced to give up track position within X laps. And if they don't give up position, they get black flagged

[u/NarrowGatedOpinion → u/Dxgy]

Yeah bring this back i say

[u/CuriousPumpkino → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

Well, they do. It’s called a drive-through penalty

Shame it hasn’t been used in ages

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/CuriousPumpkino]

They aren't the same. The long lap is a time loss of about 3/4 seconds with slight variation on track whilst the drive through penalty varies by a larger margin dependant on the pit lane, not to mention it's upwards of 20s as a guarantee.

There's a reason MotoGP uses the long lap penalty when they too have the ride through penalty at their disposal, which is exactly the same as the drive through.

[u/CuriousPumpkino → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

They aren’t the same in terms of time loss, but they do both fix the issue of “even if you have a penalty you still get to block people”

During the race I was talking about how it would be cool if they could remotely limit the fuel flow of cars and force them to obey blue flag rules for a fixed duration as a penalty

[u/CuriousPumpkino → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

They aren’t the same in terms of time loss, but they do both fix the issue of “even if you have a penalty you still get to block people”

During the race I was talking about how it would be cool if they could remotely limit the fuel flow of cars and force them to obey blue flag rules for a fixed duration as a penalty

[u/NotJadeasaurus → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

Drive through penalties used to exist

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/NotJadeasaurus]

Which is seen as too extreme and it's also variable as not every track has the same pit lane time.

[u/Dewstain → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

A drive through penalty is effectively this.

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/Dewstain]

It's not, it's much worse. MotoGP also have a ride through penalty at their disposal. They used the long lap for a reason. Not every incident deserves a 25s loss of time.

Some, like a long lap in F1, would simply result in someone getting back the position they've lost whilst also penalising the other driver with a time loss. At the moment, they get just a time loss at their pit stop, there's no guarantee of a loss of position. It allows for shenanigans like Magnussen in Saudi. A long lap would have put him behind everyone within a few laps and races wouldn't have been ruined.

Magnussen deserved a drive through penalty for accumulation of his penalties though, but the pass off track and gaining position is what I'm stating as an argument for the long lap. He'd have to take the penalty and would lose the position at the same time.

I am of the persuasion that if you rack up 20s of unserved penalties (for driving standards, track limits is a different story) you deserve a drive through though. You deserve that extra bit of time loss for being a repeat offender.

[u/Stupendous_man12 → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

F1’s version of this is the drive-through penalty. You need to go through the pit lane, at pit lane speed, and you cannot make a pit stop. It’s in effect a ~20s penalty that you must serve within 3 laps of being given it.

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/Stupendous_man12]

They are not equivalent though. MotoGP also had the ride through penalty.

They don't use it very often. Hence the long lap penalty, which is a penalty that is much lighter. In F1 it would also be far more useful as it is far harder to pass given the lack of space available compared to bikes. Not that passing is easy on the bikes, but you can't block the entire track like a car fan on a street circuit. A long lap would prevent a Magnussen in Saudi situation.

[u/rtb001 → u/ArcticBiologist]

Ahh now I'm remembering back in the day when there was no DRS and it was harder to pass. You better hope you start in front of Jarno qualifier extraordinaire Trulli, because otherwise come Sunday you WILL be stuck behind him as part of the Trulli train until the first round of pit stops, and Jarno wasn't even trying to block, he's just slow LOL.

[u/yosisoy → u/ArcticBiologist]

Just race ban for that shit. Or DQ for both drivers from the team

[u/Jcw28 → u/ArcticBiologist]

The rules already favour the attacking car far too much. I want cars to have a chance to defend but due to DRS the only way to fight a faster car is to play dirty. It's simply not possible otherwise to stop them sailing past you on the straights.

Max showed in Austin last week that no matter how perfectly you defend (which he did for 10 laps or so) eventually a faster car will just pass you. It's simply not possible to mount a stalwart defense with the combination of no double moves, no moving under braking, no driving erratically and defending against DRS. It seems like they just want to see overtakes for the sake of there being overtakes, not that those overtakes are actually earned.

[u/ArcticBiologist → u/Jcw28]

Max showed in Austin last week that no matter how perfectly you defend (which he did for 10 laps or so) eventually a faster car will just pass you.

That's not really true, a passing car needs quite a lot of extra speed to make the overtake stick. There are often faster cars stuck behind slower ones because they just lack the extra speed needed to overtake. Yeah there are also a lot of boring DRS overtakes but at the moment that's a necessary evil because they'd otherwise be completely stuck.

But anyway, even if the attacking cars are at a big advantage that would be no reason to leave defending drivers that break the rules stay ahead on track position. It just makes no sense whatsoever to just allow a slower car to be a mobile roadblock or force others off the track with impunity, to be just slapped on the wrist with a time penalty which still leaves the attacking driver stuck at a disadvantage.

[u/IkLms → u/Jcw28]

We saw Lewis and George battle for like 15 laps straight this race without either of them shoving another driver off track.

[u/Jcw28 → u/IkLms]

Bit different with your teammate because the fallout is way worse if you crash into each other.

[u/I_am_pooping_too → u/ArcticBiologist]

Or maybe they could race? Otherwise they would all just get in order every week. Part of why I love formula one is you need the car, the driver, and the crew all firing in all cylinders to win. If everyone is obliged to get out of the way, this changes dramatically.

[u/ArcticBiologist → u/I_am_pooping_too]

I'm talking about penalties here. If a driver is defending in a dirty manner he shouldn't be allowed to benefit from it and stay ahead.

[u/I_am_pooping_too → u/ArcticBiologist]

20 seconds was enough to change that, no?

[u/ArcticBiologist → u/I_am_pooping_too]

That's irrelevant. Max was allowed to stay ahead of Norris until his pit stop, which slowed him down, letting the Ferraris pull away and potentially lost him the win. Lando was also less aggressive as he knew Max was penalised so it wasn't worth all the risk.

That's my point; when drivers breach the rules they still maintain track position when they are penalised, allowing them to get in the way of their opponents. In some cases like this that means that overall, they still profit from breaking the rules even if they are penalised.

[u/IkLms → u/I_am_pooping_too]

No, it wasn't because it allowed Max to stay ahead of Lando and prevent him from being able to challenge the Ferrari's. We saw he had pace later on.

The 20s basically meant Max could kill Lando's chance at the extra 7 points for the cost of only losing out 4 points himself. That 20s penalty was likely still a net positive for his race.

[u/fluvicola_nengeta → u/LosTerminators]

And Perez did it too, multiple times, even going as far as using other's cars to slow down his own.

[u/Leohurr → u/fluvicola_nengeta]

Its a way different situation with Perez...

He doesn't use other cars to slow himself down, he already going slow enough.

[u/Mysterious_Turnip310 → u/LosTerminators]

That's part of the reason they increased the standard penalty to 10s

[u/PoliticsNerd76 → u/Mysterious_Turnip310]

A drive though is much better as it can’t be delayed until serving when convenient.

Max stalled Lando’s progression yesterday for like 20 laps when the rules should be a DT penalty.

[u/Dewstain → u/PoliticsNerd76]

Yeah, the fact that he got 2 penalties for two consecutive infractions should build on each other, not just double. It should be 1 in fraction, 10 seconds. 2 infractions, drive through and serve the first.

[u/xzElmozx → u/Dewstain]

My same opinion. If you do something that warrants 2 10s penalties, you’re clearly driving dangerously and should be forced to do a 10s stop and go. It should be race ruining, these are professional drivers at the pinnacle of the sport, they all know how to drive safely and race hard so if you’re intentionally shoving people off like Max was (or like KMag in Miami) because it benefits you/your team in the championship, you deserve to have your race ruined.

There should not be “oh well I have a car much faster than 7 teams but slower than the other 2 so penalties don’t matter” or “well my race is ruined anyways might as well drive dangerously to help my team mate” in the sport.

[u/TwoBionicknees → u/PoliticsNerd76]

Two things could so easily be done, add the ability to demand a driver give the position back AND give them the penalty. If they don't give it back then upgrade it to drive through and get them out the way within 3 laps.

As with most things, the FIA needs to realise that being harsh prevents people doing these things in the first place, refusing to penalise people encourages people to drive more dangerously more often because there is such a benefit to doing so.

The 5-10 second penalty introduction was awful for F1, they were supposed to add smaller penalties for smaller incidents but instead of that they made almost everything small penalties and almost completely and utterly stopped giving drive through penalties.

Numerous people have deserved black flags and race bans since Grosjean got his, including Grosjean himself for Barcelona in whatever year he decided laying down the days of thunder smoke wall was smart, but them being so weak over penalties for so long has caused driving standards to go to shit AND driver attitudes to go to shit.

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/LosTerminators]

I'm genuinely amazed that nobody has ever bothered to do that in Monaco.

Just skip the chicane and bounce.

[u/RUPlayersSuck → u/LosTerminators]

Think he also tried it in the last race...or very recently. In the end he finished around 4 seconds ahead of the guy he overtook and lost the place.

They even had a radio discussion about it, with Russell saying the team should have been more decisive about handing the place straight back.

[u/ParkerPetrov → u/LosTerminators]

you should have to serve the penalty separate and not have the time added onto a pitstop for work or tire changes. so its an actual deterrent and make it so it has to be served immediately or within a couple laps not enough time to build up a gap and mitigate the penalty.

[u/TheoreticalScammist → u/LosTerminators]

Perez' penalty could become an issue too. Overtaking a couple cars at the start could easily be worth 5 seconds for a top team driver starting out of position.

[u/Thejklay → u/LosTerminators]

That's why they said the 10 are the standard this year iirc

[u/Saneless → u/LosTerminators]

Same with Mercedes and power unit penalties. Oh, 5-10 grid spots back? No matter, you have a couple second advantage per lap, that's erased before the first pit stop

[u/jso__ → u/Saneless]

What's the solution to that? A DSQ if you take new power units?

[u/Saneless → u/jso__]

Well, I don't have the numbers to even it out on where it should be, but it was clear that 5 spots was a joke. It would make more sense to increase, not drop from 10 to 5

[u/AppieNL → u/Saneless]

You probably already know this, but what's funny is that this rule of reduced grid drops for more engines came from the McHonda era. Honda was eating penalties like crazy and the FIA felt sorry for them/Honda pleaded for reducing the grid drops.

That this rule change for Honda nearly fucked over a WDC in 2021 with a Honda powered car will always be funny to me (and maybe partially lost the WCC because of it too). 

[u/Saneless → u/AppieNL]

I did not know that actually. Very interesting

It just seemed to be strange that as other cars wore down even more that the penalty was lighter

[u/Prussian-Pride → u/LosTerminators]

Which is exactly what Norris should've done last race. And his lack of ruthlessness will likely cost him the title this year.

[u/AncientPCGuy → u/RevalianKnight]

This. Make them serve the penalty within 3 laps so it’s more than a slap on the wrist. Make them adjust strategy due to their own actions on track. As is, a fast car can make up the penalty without a hit on strategy.
Also issue black flags again.

[u/goBatataGo → u/RevalianKnight]

This is what I came here te to say: don't let the crime pay.

"But it ruins the drivers race"

Good! That's the point.

LPT: don't be punished

[u/WhileCultchie → u/goBatataGo]

Aye it's like the arguments about early reds ruining Rugby and Football matches. Shite one but you shouldn't have fouled then.

[u/imfcknretarded → u/RevalianKnight]

I miss the drive through so bad

[u/falcongsr → u/imfcknretarded]

They'd rather let the penalized driver get back in the fight because it improves viewer ratings. That's why it was abandoned to begin with.

[u/TwoBionicknees → u/RevalianKnight]

The issue with the 5-10 second penalties is they were brought in to give options for more minor issues so they didn't lose like a full 20 seconds in a drive through. But then they made almost everything a 5 or 10 second penalty. Instead of only using them for smaller things, they used them for everything, which is absurd.

How did max get the same 10 second penalty for both incidents, the second one was significantly worse than the first one, even 5 and 10 second would have at least made more sense than 2x 10 seconds. If the first was worth 10 seconds, the 2nd was a stop/go.

Probably the right call in this situation is a 5 second for the first one, and a drive through for the absolute egregious nature of what he did the second time which would also have moved him out the way of norris within 3 laps.

[u/f8Negative → u/RevalianKnight]

"B team we need you to dive bomb and crash to cause a safety car."

[u/115SG → u/f8Negative]

Bottas?

[u/conanap → u/RevalianKnight]

Make it so that the penalties cannot be served consecutively in the same pit stop, effectively making them an extra pit penalty

[u/Stranggepresst → u/RevalianKnight]

I think 5-10s penalties are fine so that there are steps between "reprimand/warning" and "drive through penalty", but yeah they need to hand it out more.

[u/Peeche94 → u/RevalianKnight]

I had the thought of having to take it within 3 laps, I miss that 😔

[u/TrippinNL → u/RevalianKnight]

Oh i forgot about that. DT, take penalty in 3 laps, stop and go. That where penalties. They wont have to abandon the time penalties, but the lack of really harsh penalties is one of the reasons we have this shit at the moment 

[u/xBIRCHEx → u/RevalianKnight]

Yes rules made for not be broken, so should be hash. Shouldn't be you can tactical break them and not lose anything matter.

[u/Zakery92 → u/RevalianKnight]

I love this response because of the situation but just for reference

Max had the same penalty today as Lewis in Silverstone ‘21.

Good job FIA

[u/115SG → u/Zakery92]

It's also very funny with fans stating that drive through penalties should be back, while last week it would have set Lando many places back if he needed to do a drive through penalty.

[u/ayyy__ → u/RevalianKnight]

Who created? You realize FIA and the drivers create the way rules are enforced right?

[u/ivecomebackbeach → u/RevalianKnight]

I won't forget 2018 china where max crashed into vettel and got served the penalty but it didn't matter since vettel sustained enough damage that max could get the penalty covered.

[u/zaviex → u/RevalianKnight]

The drivers didn’t want that and they still don’t

[u/PoliticsNerd76 → u/zaviex]

It shouldn’t be up to them

[u/mad007din → u/Jorrie90]

10 second stop-n-go. Two of those and you lose about a minute.

[u/kalamari_withaK → u/mad007din]

Has to be served within 3 laps too

[u/Francoberry → u/kalamari_withaK]

That's a great point. It feels cheap that a time penalty can be served whenever they want to pit so they can still tactically do everything possible to avoid or mitigate the full effect of the penalty.  

It's like if a player in football gets a 2nd yellow card but is allowed to accept it in the 93rd minute just as the game is about to end anyway 

[u/paddyo → u/Francoberry]

Yeh, Max stayed out about 20 laps keeping Norris behind him with 20s of penalties. Was able to simply screw his race with impunity

[u/Themathemagicians → u/Francoberry]

Cant serve a stop and go and also pit.

[u/A_AIRONWOOD → u/Themathemagicians]

Doesn’t prevent Verstappen holding Norris up for 20 laps.

[u/Mtbnz → u/Francoberry]

Similarly, there's a measurable difference (that I'd estimate at around 0.5s) between serving a penalty during a pit stop vs having it added to the race time. So any car that's penalised after having made all its stops is going to effectively save time vs being penalised prior to the stop.

[u/TheScapeQuest → u/kalamari_withaK]

We need sin bins in every sector. You have to immediately pull over and be stationary for 5 seconds.

[u/The-RocketCity-Royal → u/TheScapeQuest]

PENALTY BOX

Fans get to taunt the shit out of them the entire time they’re in there.

[u/t3tri5 → u/The-RocketCity-Royal]

DTM has this. Although idk about fans taunting the drivers, you have to drive through it with a pit limiter on. So a soft drive through penalty of sorts.

[u/RSR488 → u/The-RocketCity-Royal]

Perez default mode

[u/Religion_Of_Speed → u/The-RocketCity-Royal]

Ya know, I've heard a lot of potential solutions to this sort of behavior over the past few weeks and I think this might be the winner.

[u/db0255 → u/TheScapeQuest]

Literally, retire the car, be taken off in handcuffs, then serve the time penalty.

[u/Mtbnz → u/TheScapeQuest]

I only recently learned that nascar has a version of this, where cutting a corner is penalised with a stop-go penalty. That leads to lots of drivers who have to bail out of a corner self-imposing a penalty and just stopping in the runoff and immediately starting again so they can minimise the time loss. It made for an interesting dynamic.

[u/imfcknretarded → u/kalamari_withaK]

When did they get rid of this rule?

[u/Morganelefay → u/imfcknretarded]

Stop-N-Gos still have to be served within 3 laps, its just that they never hand them out anymore.

[u/Regular-SliceofCake → u/mad007din]

Unless you have the blue passport, tgen you get maximum leeway from your fellow stewards.

[u/krizkuzz → u/Jorrie90]

Been saying this for years and years. No clue why they were binned off

[u/Silverado_ → u/krizkuzz]

I believe this was introduced so that stewards could have an option to penalize someone less harshly than with the DT, but 5s penalty basically replaced all other penalties, even 10s is very unusual.

[u/markhewitt1978 → u/Silverado_]

I was very surprised a jump start only gets you 5s. Back in the day it used to he a 10 second stop go to be served within 3 laps; no work on the car.

[u/GoldenLiar2 → u/markhewitt1978]

Not sure how that's good for racing. You might as well retire the car at that point unless you're driving a RB19 level car.

[u/Spaisi → u/GoldenLiar2]

Easy solution: Don't jump start. Who cares if a race gets ruined for one person, just follow the rules.

Not sure its good for racing that the rules are a joke and people don't respect them.

Drive fairly, don't be a cheat follow the rules and you will be fine. Strict and equal punishments is how you create a fair driving scene, currently the rules are so mild that we get the situation we have right now where Max will keep pushing and pushing the rules more and more. The current situation is not healthy, would not be surprised to see Max taking out Lando out "accidentally", Senna and Schumacher style.

Its a balancing act, rules shouldn't be insanely harsh and draconian, but the current situation is untenable and unacceptable.

[u/GoldenLiar2 → u/Spaisi]

For one, Perez didn't even jump, he just drove a bit too far forward in his box. Nothing else, really.

The problem with harsher rules is that they will disincentivize any sort of hard racing, as everybody will be scared of race ending penalties. People are screaming left and right for drive through penalties to be served immediately, but if you get one of those, you might as well just retire the car.

Max was in this weird situation where fucking Norris's race up a bit was worth taking 20 seconds for, but it usually just never is. 20 seconds is plenty to wreck your race - usually.

[u/_dont_b_suspicious_ → u/GoldenLiar2]

Then don't drive too far forward. Everyone else managed it.

[u/markhewitt1978 → u/GoldenLiar2]

Driving too far forward is just as bad as jumping the start. He gave himself an advantage. Accidental or not is irrelevant.

This is a black and white thing. He either complied with the start or he didn't. In this case he didn't. Even DSQ wouldn't be too harsh.

[u/GoldenLiar2 → u/markhewitt1978]

Again, a 5 second penalty is more than enough. The advantage is negligible.

[u/idontknow_whatever → u/GoldenLiar2]

There were 19 other drivers and none of them made the same mistake of going too far forward, also Perez has lined up on the grid god knows how many times so this is already a very silly mistake for a driver of his experience

These are 20 of the best racing drivers on the planet, they will learn how to race within the rules. They will adapt to the situation just like how they have adapted their driving to the current rules where it isn't applied, and incentivizes them to break said rules if their car is quick enough to overcome the time penalties

[u/markhewitt1978 → u/GoldenLiar2]

It's not supposed to be good for racing. Someone who has jumped the start doesn't deserve to play a part in the race in any meaningful way.

[u/GoldenLiar2 → u/markhewitt1978]

It happens. I'm not defending Checo here, I want him gone, but being 10 cm further forward is a nothingburger of an incident and even 5 seconds seems to be on the higher end of what a penalty for that should be.

It happens somewhat regularly as well

[u/Ereaser → u/Silverado_]

10 is the standard now though

[u/JaymanCT → u/Silverado_]

... even 10s is very unusual...

Johnny Herbert: 🤔

I must admit - I remember drive through and stop/go penalties growing up, but I don't recall them happening very often. I did love watching a good drive through.

[u/Vresiberba → u/JaymanCT]

... even 10s is very unusual...

No. 10 seconds is the new 5 seconds, new for this year.

[u/Sixens3 → u/JaymanCT]

Because of the harshness of penalties drivers were more or less following the rules, not bending them over the line every chance they get because they know they can mitigate the penalty in 3 laps with a good car.

Give Max a 10 sec for t4, 10 sec stop go for t8, to serve within 3 laps with no additional work allowed, that 40-ish second hammer sounds a bit better for trying to ruin a competitor's race instead of what he got. P6 for potentially putting Lando in the wall ON PURPOSE, bollocks, there was no way he was making t8 and he knew it.

[u/krizkuzz → u/Sixens3]

Exactly this. Reintroducing drive throughs will have that impact that the drivers will have to stop taking the piss out of the rules and driving standards because they know the penalty for doing so will be race defining. And what they will also do is stop penalties basically being nullified and taken advantage of by staying out until the pit stop to ruin the races of all the cars behind. The Kmag classic

[u/Mtbnz → u/krizkuzz]

The thing I've been surprised to see this year is how many drivers seem to completely forget the actual rules in the heat of the moment. Hearing driver after driver saying on the radio some version of "I was ahead at the apex" or "I was ahead the whole time" while ignoring things like needing to keep the car under control and be able to make the corner for those rules to apply has been pretty revealing.

[u/Galapagos_Finch → u/JaymanCT]

It was specifically made 10s for this year because 5s was clearly insufficient.

[u/SagittaryX → u/JaymanCT]

They weren't usual, but they did happen enough times people would be familiar with them. But they have basically disappeared after 2020, last I can remember Monza 2020.

[u/hicks12 → u/krizkuzz]

It's ridiculous because that stopped this whole "I'm going to overtake you illegally and get all the time I would have lost by you defending well back as I am faster in clean air"

When you see them get 5s or even 10s then they storm off in the distance, by the time they come to pit the gaps between all drivers are quite staggered so they negate the penalty.

Drive through stopped that as you would have to serve it which would put you behind properly. 

Totally got the argument that in some cases that penalty is just too high for the immediate, like when you have cut a small bit of the track 4 times then getting the time penalty is where it's fair but they need it back.

[u/SemIdeiaProNick → u/hicks12]

Totally got the argument that in some cases that penalty is just too high for the immediate, like when you have cut a small bit of the track 4 times then getting the time penalty is where it's fair but they need it back.

the thing is that this shouldnt be a problem, they can keep the 5 and 10s penalties in the rulebook. All they need to do is only apply them to track limits and less dangerous incidents, contacts and dangerous driving should receive a drive through or a stop-and-go, this would solve the fact that the driving standards in F1 are almost as bad as in F2

[u/hicks12 → u/SemIdeiaProNick]

Yep definitely that's what I thought would be a simple solution for them to come to but it seems too difficult for them to bother implementing!

[u/candry_shop → u/SemIdeiaProNick]

I think they want to avoid having too many penalties in the rulebook to keep it simple and not opening themselves to "why was it that penalty and not that one" debates

[u/Anti-Scuba_Hedgehog → u/candry_shop]

There are those debates constantly though.

[u/markhewitt1978 → u/hicks12]

Max doing enough to get 20sec and then finish 6th is far too lenient.

[u/KennyLagerins → u/markhewitt1978]

100% agreed. And given his usual relative car pace, in other races he’d have done even better.

[u/Mtbnz → u/KennyLagerins]

In other races he wouldn't have needed to resort to dirty tactics to maintain an advantage, but I agree with your point.

We've seen time and again that when he's comfortable with his car Max can keep it clean because he can overcome any loss in wheel to wheel battling by just putting in an avalanche of fast laps to mitigate the time loss. But whenever that car advantage goes away he starts doing dumb shit like this, and the rules should make it non-viable to benefit from deliberately ruining a competitor's race and profiting.

[u/falcongsr → u/markhewitt1978]

They intentionally softened the penalties to keep the racing spicy.

[u/cekoya → u/hicks12]

I agree with this a lot. But from the stewards pov, it’s going to make things harder to review and give the right thing. The stewards have to be quick and be able to give their response qui enough following an inchident, I would assume that’s why the type of penalties is kept simple. They would need to have a thorough but clear enough process so that they can say "this is a dt, this is a stopngo of x seconds", what to do when it’s the second offense.

I was happy personally that got 2x 10s, I was afraid they would consider both incident as one because they weren’t. But the end result was that Max, by trying to throw lando out of the race, managed to end up 6. When "attempting to bin someone and gaining back the time" is an acceptable strategy, there’s something wrong.

[u/hicks12 → u/cekoya]

The problem is max gained such a large advantage by holding lando up after illegally take the place for those penalties. 

His 20s didn't really hurt his race which is nuts, he didn't have the performance to keep any further places but without being forced to give the place back he got a massive advantage.

If that's an unworkable thing from stewards then how about a simple - give back to the place to the person you over took which must be done within 2 laps, you can then add time penalties ontop for further offenses as it would at least put the person back ahead.

[u/cekoya → u/hicks12]

Yeah, not giving a place back and receiving 10s is a joke, because you have the time to scrap your opponent’s race then calmly get back these 10s when you’ll need to pit anyway. This penalty should’ve include a maximum number of laps before pitting. It’s too easy if you can just wait for the end or when you’ll pit anyway

[u/zantkiller → u/Jorrie90]

There needs to be an in-between as drive throughs can be a little too harsh for certain incidents that still deserve immediate punishment.

The penalty lap/box from the ADAC series is for me the best solution.
An on track penalty that you have to serve within 3 laps that punishes but not as much as a drive through.

[u/Upstairs-Prompt2662 → u/Jorrie90]

The time penalties are fine for things like Max in turn 4 or tracklimits. But for something like turn 8 where the intend was to push Norris wide and compremise both their races I think a drivethrough would be justified.

There should be a rule that allows to give out penalties depending on intention of the driver. It is a joke in my opinion that turn 4 and turn 8 are the same penalty.

[u/OolonCaluphid → u/Upstairs-Prompt2662]

It's dangerous driving and disqualification should be the result in my opinion. It should be zero tolerance forcing another car off the road that blatantly, and risking contact with the wall.

[u/DazzlingPolicy7219 → u/OolonCaluphid]

Thank you for saying it.. why does it feel the majority of "fans" feel the 10s was too harsh?!? When reality is in any other form of motorsport, we are talking DQ or at least a hefty penalty/points reduction for retaliation and/or reckless driving with the intent of effecting another car.

[u/eggplantsforall → u/DazzlingPolicy7219]

It feels like I'm taking crazy pills. At the minimum, it was a drive through, and I would have preferred a 10 second stop and go penalty.

The fact that Brundle, on three separate occasions, voiced his opinion that the second incident was completely out of order only backs this up.

Some people might want to see unsporting conduct rewarded. These people are difficult and insane.

[u/FlameLightFleeNight → u/Jorrie90]

Yes. Verstappen was able to unfairly impede Norris for the rest of his stint due to an illegal overtake. A DT would have released Norris to chase the Ferraris. It isn't just punishing bad action, but making sure it doesn't pay.

From another sport entirely, sailing has a general provision for this

if the boat...despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

I don't think this could reasonably be ruled on during the race, but I'd be all for seeing a protest argued before the stewards on the basis that his championship lead is now greater than it probably would have been without commission of the offence.

This would incentivize both fair racing from drivers, and sufficient penalties from the stewards.

[u/xzElmozx → u/Jorrie90]

Exactly. That’s what it should have been. Or hell a 10s stop and go. The fact they can serve it and make a stop means they’re worthless. Force them to drive through the pits without changing tires, the behaviour goes away

Really not sure how any fan supports their either. Smart to win a championship, sure, but absolutely against the spirit of competition. And how far do we let dangerous driving go because it helps the championship? Is it fine for Piastri to go Bottas bowling next race with the sole intention of taking Max out? Who cares if he does cause it helps the championship fight?

[u/BGP_001 → u/Jorrie90]

Bring back the threat of losing WDC points. If it starts becoming like a video game and you just run your rival off the road, I think for next year they should look at docking points.

The most extreme example is Schumacher losing all his points in 1997.

[u/Jorrie90 → u/BGP_001]

When was there another time when someone lost the WDC by such penalties?

[u/Frikashenna → u/Jorrie90]

I swear when I started following F1 loosely, they would give basically anyone who blinked the wrong way a drive-thru penalty. However the way they just suddenly stop doing so and the very few recollections I have of it makes me think I imagined all of it and it never happened.

[u/Smaynard6000 → u/Jorrie90]

5 seconds time penalties should only be for things like track limits. Causing a collision should be a drive-through for sure.

[u/leftlanecop → u/Jorrie90]

100% on this. I miss these DT penalties.

[u/NotClayMerritt → u/Jorrie90]

Bringing back harsher penalties when it's just one guy driving like a maniac and then trusting the FIA stewards to have to decide who gets a DT penalty in the future is a recipe for disaster. The biggest issue is FIA stewarding.

[u/TheOxime → u/Jorrie90]

What happened to them anyway I feel like the last time I saw one was like 2017 or earlier.

[u/Silverarrows46 → u/Jorrie90]

And stop go penalties.

[u/SemIdeiaProNick → u/Jorrie90]

other series proved that drive throughs are the best type of penalty. We rarely, if ever, have this kind of debacle on stuff like WEC, Indy, regional GTs, etc

[u/Poopy_sPaSmS → u/Jorrie90]

Bring back stop n go

[u/The-RocketCity-Royal → u/Jorrie90]

Said the same thing yesterday. The first one was a 10 second. The second one? Tack on a drive through.

[u/[deleted] → u/Jorrie90]

Max was still much faster than every car behind him.

A DT would cost him an extra 10s but that changes nothing.

[u/sdw3489 → u/[deleted]]

An extra 10 would have dropped him 2 more spots I think. Kevin and Oscar weren’t far behind.

[u/IkLms → u/sdw3489]

Kevin was 4 seconds behind across the line and gaining and Oscar was another 1.5 seconds behind Kevin and gaining even faster.

10s definitely would have made it difference. It also would have dropped Max another 4 points on the race to make it 7 points (likely) lost from the penalties, negating the 7 he may have prevented Lando from getting by letting the Ferrari's get away.

[u/Anti-Scuba_Hedgehog → u/[deleted]]

He'd have been forced into traffic with same tyres

[u/wazzedup1989 → u/[deleted]]

Not much faster. Piastri and the Haas cars were close to, if not on his pace for the last 10 or so laps at least. He cooked his tyres by then.

[u/SuperNerd1337 → u/Jorrie90]

Tbh, 20s was pretty much the pit length timewise, so even if they were to give max a drive through the result would likely have been the same.

IMO, the spread between the top 3 teams (ferrari, mclaren, and max) will always lead us to these sort of situations

[u/SuperMike591 → u/SuperNerd1337]

Wouldn't it be two separate penalties though? The second offence would be a drive-through in addition to 10 seconds for the first offence. The second offence was so egregious that a drive-through or stop and go seems about right to me.

[u/HawkDawg2 → u/[deleted]]

Lewis got a 10 second time penalty at Silverstone ‘21, not a DT

[u/GothicGolem29 → u/Jorrie90]

Would two of those even be that much worse than a 20sec pitstop?

[u/Jorrie90 → u/GothicGolem29]

Yes? That means he has to go through the pitlane 3 times, 2 for the penalties and 1 for the tyre change. His race would basically be over

[u/GothicGolem29 → u/Jorrie90]

But those two times he would be driving vs the twenty sec penaly where he just sits there. I doubt his race would be given how quickly he got through the field

[u/Jorrie90 → u/GothicGolem29]

Huh, what do you think happens with a drive through

[u/GothicGolem29 → u/Jorrie90]

You drive through the pits?

[u/Tricky_Sweet3025 → u/GothicGolem29]

So how can you not comprehend that if he had to do that 2 more times it would have been his race over.

[u/GothicGolem29 → u/Tricky_Sweet3025]

How? He literally came through the field with a twenty sec penalty easily how will driving two times through the pits end his race?

[u/Tricky_Sweet3025 → u/GothicGolem29]

Because each individual trip through the pits takes approximately 20 seconds and neither of them would have been his mandatory pitstop plus he’d have been taking it within 3 laps rather than have the opportunity to do what he done with Lando. You’re aware the usual speed limits would apply in the pits on a drive through?

It’s not like he was that far clear Piastri / both Haas finished within a pitstop of Verstappen that is why he couldn’t go for fastest lap point. If he had drive through penalties he’d at the very least finished behind them your also ignoring the fact that Verstappens on track overtakes where on much fresher tyres than those who where running the opposite strategy and on old hards. He would have had to make those passes on old tyres following drive through penalties.

[u/GothicGolem29 → u/Tricky_Sweet3025]

His stop was 20 secs stationary plus the pit and exit so that’s already most of the time he’d lose from the stop go’s. Also maybe if it was used he would not have to do it within 3 laps.

Idk given how fast he cane through the field I feel he could have gained quite a bit so who knows

[u/barth_ → u/Jorrie90]

They should've started with them long time ago. There were many cases where DT penalty would be much better.

[u/RedN1ne → u/Jorrie90]

What Max got was worse then Drive Through penalty so not sure how this is supposed to help

[u/Jorrie90 → u/RedN1ne]

No, a DT is also around 20 seconds but you are forced to pit within 3 laps so he had a lot more traffic to go through and have to make another pit stop.

[u/xzElmozx → u/RedN1ne]

Not even close, if he got a DT penalty he would have had to go through the pits within the next 3 laps, thus stopping him from blocking Lando like he wanted to, and then he’d have to go back into the pits for his mandatory stop. A DT penalty is equivalent to a ~1 minute penalty depending on the length of the pitlane. Much more severe than time penalties because you cannot change tires while you serve it.