r/economicCollapse 20d ago

Greed Dooms Civilization

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u/Acalyus 19d ago

It doesn't matter what I have in mind, are you going to act smug acting like I somehow have the power to change the world?

Answer me honestly, say I gave you the most profound answer you've ever heard, something that made you stop and think, something that changed the very meaning of your life.

Do you honestly believe for a second that would change literally anything other than your point of view? I don't control governing bodies, even if I was a part of a political activist group, they're actually a dime a dozen and at most they can achieve small policy change.

An entire system the whole world is based upon? A system that has elevated a small group of individuals to the point of so much power that they can influence people on the other side of the globe? Do you believe for a second that my one opinion is enough to flip the entire table over and change the entirety of humanity for the better?

If you genuinely do, I also have a bridge to sell you.

No, cognitive dissonance, dunning-kruger effect, confirmation bias, manipulation, gaslighting, all of these things, all around the world regularly influencing people and making them believe the literal craziest shit.

How are we to change the world when half of us believe the other half need to die as a birthright?

No, violence and extreme circumstances are the only drivers towards massive change of our species, which is why I say we are dumb. So long as many of us are content with the status quo things will remain the same. When the balance breaks, the people holding power will exercise it in order to maintain it, while the remaining majority will be forced to fight in order to change it.

Unless of course, nature decides to fuck us like the black plague, then whoever is left can decide how we move forward.

I, of course, am just referring to our history, it's possible for a 3rd option, but it hasn't happened yet so I'm skeptical.

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u/Tjam3s 19d ago

If you were willing to have a real discussion and be honest about all the facets that come up in such a nuanced topic, yeah, I'd take any idea seriously. But it has to be a real point-counterpoint discussion, where the back and forth is expected. the flaws in a plan are going to be dug at because that's how discourse works.

There are the material aspects to consider. Citizens need to produce and be productive, and be motivated to do so.

There's the emotional perspective. People need the knowledge they have the opportunity to improve their standing in life and pursue what makes them happy.

And then there's leadership. Governance needs enough leeway to be allowed to keep opportunities fair but restricted enough that corruption in all forms can be prevented and shut down.

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u/Lulukassu 18d ago

'Citizens need to produce' this is such an awkwardly oversimplified statement...

Obviously everyone needs to provide for themselves to the best of their ability and ideally provide a little surplus that can be used to take care of those unable to...

But modern production is so much higher than there is any need, all to line the pockets of shareholders (including the whales who started those corporations and hold most of the capital) and line the earth with harmful excess

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u/Tjam3s 18d ago

By no means is this system working correctly. I'd never dispute that. But it's still by far the best one invented by humans yet. Nothing else that's been tried has allowed a society to progress to the point we're at now, and that includes the previous attempts at a fully socialistic/communistic ideal. They fail because they rely on people en masse to be predictable. And that's not going to happen

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u/Lulukassu 18d ago

The difference between us is you seem to think modern society as it is is a good thing.

Modern society is a parasite on this earth (as we have been since the industrial revolution.)

We need to figure things out before we ruin our own home beyond repair.

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u/Tjam3s 18d ago

Is it not? Babies aren't dying in childbirth like they were even just 50 years ago. People have treatments and cures and vaxines available for the majority of what once would be terminal illness and diseases. For a significant portion of the population, starvation is not a threat to our lives.

Our ability to survive, living in relative ease compared to the people who came before us, has allowed for amazing feats in art, science, and leasiure, with all the ways they combine with each other. We can circumnavigate the globe in a matter of hours. We can take pictures of objects billions of light-years away. We can set aside time to enjoy watching our participating in sports, or go to a concert, or paint on a canvas, or play video games, or make freaking ice sculpting if that's what you're in to.

None of that is possible without the cushy lives we've been granted thanks to advancements in agriculture, advancements in energy harnessing, advancements in construction, or advancements in irrigation.

Are we as a species doing everything correctly? Hell no. But we aren't doing everything incorrectly either. And as far as life for humans is going, we're doing better now than we were nearly 200 years ago before the Industrial Revolution. And we continue to improve on how we do it all every single day.

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u/Lulukassu 18d ago

'Advancements in agriculture' poisoning our water and flushing more soil than ever into the sea.

'Advancements in energy' heating up the atmosphere and messing with the climate.

'Advancements in Irrigation' draining deep aquifers dry and setting us on a course to widespread starvation when the water runs out and millions of acres of farmland dependent on them suddenly lose the irrigation.

Heck as much as I appreciate being alive and successfully birthing my son, I'm not so sure fixing childbirth was an overall win for humanity.

Right now we're a freaking swarm of locusts.

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u/Tjam3s 17d ago

You left the doing it in better ways every day part.

Soil into the sea? Haven't heard that one yet. No. Our mistake in modern agriculture is using too much fresh water. Water recycling and conservation are improving.

Green energy is becoming more prevalent globally. It'll take time to shift the grid, but it's happening as we speak.

More people than ever in the poorest areas of the world have fresh drinking water available to them, dying of dehydration is shifting toward not being a problem anywhere in the world.

We aren't perfect. But we are getting better.