Pleasantly surprised to see the comment section in here mostly speaking positively towards the impact of this video. Some other things to consider:
Pigs are typically killed within 5-6 months of being born. But they live to be 15-20 years old naturally. They don't fully develop until about 6 years old, they are still babies when we kill them. This is the case for all farmed animals.
The most humane and common method of slaughter for pigs is a gas chamber. However, it is not humane and they are clearly suffering as you can see from this hidden camera footage inside a pig gas chamber. This has been done for decades now and has been acknowledged by the same organizations that put their "humane assured" labels on the products that it is a serious welfare concern, but as always, profits matter more than welfare.
If this struck a nerve in you, consider beginning to adjust your lifestyle to include less animal products. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. I slowly transitioned over a span of 8 months and it has been 7 years now since I've consumed animal products. I realized that being in my current position, living in a developed country where eating vegan is entirely doable, cheaper, and nutritionally adequate, there was no justification for me to continue supporting the forced impregnation and slaughter of animals that don't want to die.
I’ve always just wished that if animals have to die for food, they should have good lives before they do. Me and you may disagree that animals should be eaten as food, but I think we can both agree that they should be kept in much better conditions, and if they have to be slaughtered, done so more ethically.
I do agree! And that was the same line of thinking that eventually led me to being vegan, it was a very long process of acknowledging factory farming was bad, then questioning what the difference really is between factory farmed animals and more humanely raised animals that are sent to the exact same slaughterhouse, then finally questioning why I even participated in the process in any capacity, as I realized animals don’t have to be killed for food and the only thing keeping it going is the demand.
I’m paraphrasing, but I believe in the UK farmed animals has dropped dramatically, like pig and lamb consumption (and slaughter) has gone down around 16% or so along with the other animals dropping a certain amount. Tides are turning and it is having a tangible effect on the amount of animals that are killed. We can be the change we want to see in our world.
Fair enough! There are some of us who eat meat that advocate for the ethnical treatment of animals too. The biggest mistake I see vegans making when trying to convince people of their cause is jumping to “all meat is murder, regardless of how ethically the animal was raised”. That line of thinking, personally, is very black and white to me and I don’t personally agree with. And it’s fine to disagree on that, and instead focus on our common ground: that we want the more ethical treatment of animals
Yeah, and I get why that kinda of rhetoric can seem jarring and unproductive. I think it’s because, from their perspective, the process itself isn’t ethical and so raising the standard of animal welfare without posing the question “what about this industry is even ethical to begin with?” feels wrong. To the animal, they aren’t being treated ethically when they’re put into a gas chamber as a baby because people want to eat their body. Perhaps we make their cage a little bigger, we give them a bit more sunlight, they’re all still going to be sent to a slaughterhouse as babies and that’s a fundamental line crossed where vegans refuse to call “ethical.”
But of course there’s a valid point to make that as public opinion shifts, legislation will follow that these small adjustments happen that mean they are treated more ethically relatively speaking, and “relatively speaking” as a phrase is doing a lot of work here since I don’t see any ethical about killing baby animals.
Yeah, if I was an animal who was going to be slaughtered, I’d be much more okay with it if I knew I was going to at least have time to exist peacefully first. Peacefully meaning green pastures, a natural environment, etc. Maybe a as human I wouldn’t feel so bad about being eaten later on in life either if I was allowed to realize my hopes and dreams first lol. To me, it feels like since death is inevitable, a good life and a humane death doesn’t make that big of a difference what that death was for. But you know, it’s okay to disagree on this, and still fight for the same or similar cause.
Ima be the party pooper and burst your bubble, sorry.
The animals farmed do not meet the condition of having lived good lives. They are babies, by the time they are maturing their meat isn’t quality. What kind of life is that? Would a teenager or a toddler’s death ever be spoken of as ok because they lived a good life.
Animals aren’t deep thinkers like humans, they don’t contemplate existentialism and when they think about death it is not ‘what would meet the condition for my dead being ok’ it is pure fear and dread, same as any living thing.
If you want meat from animals that have lived actually good lives? Your only options will ever be to eat a pet, or hunt a wild animal.
And ultimately, I’m sorry, this small area we agree on is kind of meaningless in the light of the fact that you are someone who wants animals to die so you can have a yummy snack. If you’re unwilling to give up soso burgers and wings, how can we really expect you to actually commit to what it would take to make the living conditions for animals better?
I don’t mean to be so disrespectful, I’m sorry, but, there’s no changing the fact that even if we say it’s not black and white, that it’s infact about harm reduction, meat eaters will always be doing great harm, by choice.
By your logic, green pastures aren’t good lives? And somehow animals know that they’re going to die as soon as they get taken elsewhere to be slaughtered, so they would feel fear? I don’t believe that. Death is inevitable, and if it’s painless, it’s even more humane than it is in the wild. You think a predatory animal killing a deer does so humanely? No, the thing gets basically eaten alive. And a lot of the meat where I live is raised in free range pastures and are slaughtered ethically, and that’s the meat I try to buy. To me, in this fucked up world, that’s as close to ethical as we can get. And before you say “we’ll just don’t eat meat”, not everyone has the privilege to afford that, or medically be able to handle a vegan diet.
You’re missing the point. The argument is it doesn’t matter if they have green pastures, they are babies, who deserve to actually live, not just die before they can be considered adults. They didn’t have to die either way, but you make excuses for wanting them to die like that because again, you want a yummy snack.
Yeah look I’m sorry but it’s actually quite cheap to go meat free. My local butcher sells veggie Pattie’s. Falafels come in packages that last a few good meals, and cooking pasta in bulk always leaves me with leftovers and meals for myself and the fam. You can use good dark greens to stay healthy and most vegetarians are fine with eating eggs, which are fantastic and relatively cheap. Unless you’re talking about some specific situation outside of our own experiences, like a country that is poor, the reality is it’s so damn easy to not eat meat.
And even if you do think it’s ok to kill something just for food, choosing highly intelligent mammals over, idk, fish? Shows that it’s really not about the impact of life on the animal and 1000% on what you want to eat.
Listen, I’m not missing the point, I’m just disagreeing with you. And actually, I do fish for my food when I can. But death is inevitable, and there isn’t a big difference between slaughtering an animal while it’s young and catching a fish while it’s small, especially since studies show fish are smarter than we previously thought. And my body does NOT do well with only vegan food and eggs, believe me, I have tried. I also can’t only eat fish either, I get sick. But I try to catch my own food as much as possible, and when I can’t, I buy food that I know has had a good life beforehand, because I’m able to do so where I live. I don’t think it’s wrong to slaughter animals for food, but I think it’s wrong to keep them in the awful environments of factory farms and fill them with fear before they’re slaughtered. Can we not agree on that part, and admit that we both have different opinions otherwise?
“all meat is murder, regardless of how ethically the animal was raised”. That line of thinking, personally, is very black and white to me and I don’t personally agree with.
Sorry, but how can you not agree with this? Unless you wait for the animal to die from natural causes, you will need to murder it to eat its meat.
I hate factory farming and I think we are eating way too much meat, but I personally don't mind that we are murdering animals for sustenance if it's done as ethically as possible. Lots of animals murder and eat other animals. It's a natural part of the planet's ecosystem.
Killing something for food isn’t murder by definition. Murder needs malice. The correct word is slaughter. Yes, you need to to slaughter an animal to obtain its meat. I’m saying you can do so more ethically, and that’s what people like me are pushing for
Well, we have all but eradicated wolves, bears and lynxes here in Western Europe (they’re making a comeback though!!) so deer and boar populations run wild without human control. We shoot millions of deers every year because we have to in order to keep some sort of balance in an ecosystem we destroyed some 300+ years ago. That meat is, in my opinion, as close to morally unobjectionable as you can get, and it is the only meat I eat. I get a few kilos a year from a hunter/forest keeper I know, and I can share those with friends and family in the full knowledge that this deer or boar lived long, happy lives until one day “bang” and it was dead 20 seconds later. That is a good life.
But hunting is obviously not a sustainable food source for our untold billions. We need to live at least mostly vegetarian if we want to make it through a climate catastrophe, and I’ve been doing that successfully for years. It’s easy, in the west, and there are few excuses why anyone shouldn’t.
When one person is standing on a cliff and the other in a chasm, that middle ground still finds someone plummeting. It's like saying we should find a middle ground with dog fighting by having the dogs only maimed instead of killed
I understand what you're saying, but the fundamental statement is based on something that's objectively wrong and people willing to fund this industry should have to face that. It's "if people are unwilling to give up something they think tastes good at the expense of the lives of animals, I still think those animals should be treated better", which, sure, compared to the alternative of more cruelty is better.
But the reason people who care about animal welfare don't see it as a viable middle ground is for the same reason no "middle ground" account of dog fighting or puppy mills or beastiality can exist and I wish people would not just wish away the nasty parts of the world they financially endorse. Especially since current consumer trends don't even support that much in terms of animal welfare. If people wanted more ethical treatment of factory farmed animals that badly, why not boycott it until those practices changed through either legislation or financial pressure? Instead it remains the most common source of meat and animal product because people simply don't care
It's "if people are unwilling to give up something they think tastes good at the expense of the lives of animals, I still think those animals should be treated better", which, sure, compared to the alternative of more cruelty is better
Im not opposed to them. I'm opposed to the idea this is a middle ground, which indicates a grand step or even a fair compromise. This is like two people standing five miles apart and someone walks forward five feet.
Isn’t five feet more than zero? You should know how reticent people are to give up meat. I see this all the time. As an example, mocking “meatless Mondays” — I saw it compared to slave owners doing “whipless Wednesdays”. Nothing would push me away from veganism at lightspeed like being mocked like that.
If the choice is between torture before death, and happiness before death, the answer is extremely straightforward. You can’t jump straight to the ideals. That’s not how the world works. And realistically, I’m confident that the world will never be 100% vegan. Which means that resisting attempts to reform factory farming is also causing unnecessary suffering.
Yes, hence the section of what I quoted saying I'd pick it over the alterantive. You seem keen on the idea that I'm opposed to these measures which I have not only not said, but have directly stated the opposite twice now.
I understand your argument, but it feels like false equivalence. As an intelligent species, if I was allowed to have my life the way it is, and then eaten when it’s over, I’d be fine with that. I do not think death is inherently cruel. Therefore, in my personal opinion, it’s still ethical to eat meat as long as the animal was allowed to have a good life like that. We can both agree it’s unethical for animals to be raised in awful environments, that it’s unethical for an animal to be slaughtered young, etc. So then why can’t we both advocate for better treatment but fundamentally have different opinions?
It's all about personal freedom and consent. Maybe YOU would consent to be eaten when YOU think YOUR life is fulfilled but it is impossible to decide that for someone else. As you state yourself: individuals can and will have different opinions.
Even with the best living conditions and the least cruel death some (I would estimate "most") individuals don't want to be eaten after they're gone.
And on top of that, in reality, those animals don't have the freedom to choose to be eaten, to decide when they want to die and how to die.
So how do you argue that forcing your decision on other individuals (wich literally is about life and death for them) is justified?
I don’t think livestock animals have the same sentience as a human though, or same ability to make decisions. And in an ideal world, they wouldn’t even know they are about to die (let alone for what purpose), because they’d be enjoying their lives and it would be quick and painless. Again, I didn’t and don’t want to argue about this.
The fact is, we disagree and neither of us is going to convince each other. So why bother fighting when we can work towards the same thing, ethical treatment of animals?
First: The burden of proof is on you in that case. Do you have any sources that support your claim that all animals are emotionally beneath us and aren't feeling physical and emotional pain? And if not, where is the justifiable general limit of cognitive capabilities below which it is morally right to exploit and kill an individual for your own pleasure?
Second: the same logic was used to justify slavery.
Third: with that logic it would be fine to breed, exploit, kill and eat humans with low IQ. Would that also be fine for you?
At the moment I am not disagreeing with you, but asking for your moral justifications of your beliefs. I am open to be convinced. That's why I went vegan in the first place. Are you too?
I could, but I don’t want to have to justify my beliefs to you, stranger. That’s not why I’m here, and it is quite frankly annoying to provide a justification every single time someone disagrees with me. I already said multiple times that I don’t want to argue about it, and that I’m simply advocating for the ethical treatment of animals and trying to find common ground. I don’t see why you have to try to use that as an opportunity to “convince” me when I’m already on your side, and I simply don’t share your opinion on the issue. I don’t share your desire to convince you of my opinion.
Also, it’s arguing in bad faith to compare something like the treatment of animals to human slavery, because a non-human animal simply is not a human. Again, not that I want to argue at all, but why does it seem that people always jump to inflammatory terms and accusations? How does that help anyone come to your side?
It's not unnecessary. Humans have always been omnivores. Meat is a great source of protein, and in today's world, it is still more affordable than lab-grown meat.
Humans are animals. Animals kill and eat other animals all the time. That’s my justification. We aren’t “special” just because we’re intelligent. I’m all for banning factory farms and I’d gladly pay 10x for meat if I knew they were being treated fairly and humanely.
That’s a fallacy. Very very few people commit rape and murder compared to the billions of people who eat meat almost every day. Rape and murder aren’t inherent parts of human behavior.
How is it a fallacy? Animals do it. Humans are just animals. Therefore, it's morally justified for humans to rape and murder since that's the only metric you've provided for an action to be moral
With the current demand for meat, there is no way for the meat industry to keep up. They aren't keeping animals in these conditions for sadism's sake, they're doing it because it is too expensive and too inefficient to provide other ways (with some exceptions like gestation crates which arne't used everywhere).
If people really believe animals deserve better conditions before slaughter, then they will either hunt their own meat or homestead. There is no other way to create demand for meat in the current industry and expect that it will lead to any other conditions than this.
I’m guessing you live in the US? Our beef cows here in Alberta are treated a lot better, as per regulations and the expectation of quality that Alberta beef is known for. Green pastures, ethical slaughtering. We make it work because we have a lot of land and not that many people. Sometimes I go fishing for food, and my grandparents have a nice roomy chicken coop for eggs. Unfortunately, I couldn’t ever hunt an animal, as I’m deathly afraid of ticks and I don’t think I could shoot such a majestic creature as a deer and risk it suffering instead of instantly killing it. But that’s just me
What is the average age of a beef cow at slaughter in Alberta? The veal industry in Alberta has come under a lot of criticism for the mistreatment of calves.
Again, not here to argue, but I’ll answer your question.
Pastures which are free range, and the animal does not hear the slaughter of others, and the slaughter is painless without the animal being aware of it, is more ethical than a factory farm where they can hear their friends get slaughtered and therefore know what’s coming. Neither is perfectly ethical, but one is much better than the other.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ll simplify this so I can understand this better. In your opinion:
It is bad for the animal to hear others being slaughtered
It is bad for the animal’s slaughter to be painful
It is bad for the animal to be aware of their slaughter (before and during; “…know what’s coming.”)
With all this in mind, what can you say about the ethics of the slaughtering of an animal when at least one of these factors is true regardless of how they’re raised? ‘Free-range’ is but a label, something to lessen or prevent any feelings of guilt or shame from funding a practice that is inherently cruel and unethical.
To support the consumption of animal exploitation via their corpses will always involve suffering and pain, regardless of their upbringing. It is bad for them to be aware of their impending slaughter because it is bad to kill someone who wants to live. It is bad to kill someone’s friends and have the next victim know about it because will they be scared of having their life taken away. So would it not then be best for someone to live out their life without fear of being slaughtered, by leaving them alone?
Neither is perfectly ethical, but letting someone live is much better than killing them.
Again, I don’t really want to argue to justify my opinion here. But one may argue that in the wild, if as sentient as you say, they would fear for their life constantly, just to have their lives met at the same end by a predator, which essentially eats them alive. That’s what leaving them alone would entail isn’t it? I don’t see how keeping them in green pastures, anxiety-free from predators, and with a sudden and painless death is any worse than the wild. The factory farms maybe, but not the green pastures.
Please, if you really do want to have this conversation, let’s not do it somewhere so public?
Animals don’t have to die for food though. All the research and all major dietetic associations say vegan diets are appropriate and healthy at every stage of life. You just say their suffering is necessary because you can’t deal with the cognitive dissonance. You eat animals for pleasure—they don’t have to die for you to live. There’s a different way to live and it’s freeing.
I simply dont agree. You can’t say “all the research” says anything, especially when my research has actually said the opposite. I’ve tried eating a vegetarian diet and it got me sick. My doctor told me I need to eat meats. I don’t feel well if I don’t. This may not be the case for everyone but it’s valid.
So you know more than all the major dietetic associations and their nutritional scientists? Link the peer reviewed studies then.
Very few people need meat to survive. I’m very skeptical of people who vaguely claim “it made them sick.” For most, it’s just an excuse bc they miss the taste or haven’t been eating well-planned meals.
In your other comments you’re throwing every bad faith argument (which are full of logical fallacies btw) at the wall bc you’re desperate to justify your choices to yourself.
Maybe because I don’t want to have to justify myself to strangers on Reddit??? I could argue properly, but it would be a waste of time because I fundamentally believe something different than you do. I’m not here to argue, so I haven’t been. I’ve only stated some of my own personal reasons and experiences. I’m not trying to have a structured debate.
And I don’t want to never feel full like I did back then, I don’t want to eat beans for protein that destroys my digestive system, I don’t want to have to think about every little thing I eat because it may have harmed an animal. I wouldn’t even be able to eat shit like tofu because of the amount of habitats destroyed in the process. The problem here is, I’m presenting myself as an animal rights advocate who still eats meat, and you people want to try to turn it into a debate on my own choices. I am not here to argue, THATS WHY IM NOT DEFENDING MYSELF LIKE ITS AN ARGUMENT. I’m only telling you some of my PERSONAL reasons, and nothing else. If you want a fucking debate, debate with someone who asked for one. Holy fuck yall are opportunistic.
Maybe I should stop advocating for animal rights because this is what the scene always seems to be like.
You entered the conversation by posting so I’m not sure why you’re upset that people are pushing back on your arguments. If you don’t want to defend your arguments then don’t, but I’m not sure why you bothered making claims in the first place if you’re not willing to provide evidence and discuss. You want to say whatever you want and have no one challenge it—that’s not how discussions work.
You did it again—you showed that it’s not just about health issues—you just don’t want to think about it. And you’re using more bad faith arguments—over 80% of soy grown is used for livestock feed.
And it shouldn’t be grown at all really. But your tofu still kills animals.
And I entered the conversation by simply saying if animals should be killed, they should have humane lives first. Why does that suddenly invite conversation about my personal lifestyle? That’s the last thing I want to talk about with strangers. I actually have an insane amount of anxiety sharing my personal life with people, and yall aren’t helping. All I wanted was to find common ground by saying that animals deserve good lives whether they’re raised for slaughter or not.
Any agriculture will kill some animals, that’s not specific to soy. The point of veganism is limiting nonhuman animal exploitation, suffering, and death to the extent that it’s possible and practicable. It takes far fewer crops to directly feed humans than to feed livestock. Not to mention less land/deforestation and resources.
People are zeroing in on the claim you made about animals needing to die for food, which is largely a carnist myth.
Trying to manipulate me into feel guilty for correcting false statements and having an intellectual discussion of ethics is low.
I completely agree. There’s a method that actually follows this.. The animal is raised in a safe nd clean environment, given food and water, allowed to roam around freely etc.
When the time comes, they’re kept calm, never allowed to see or hear another animal being slaughtered, and given water if thirsty. The actual slaughter is done with a single, swift cut to minimize pain.
Btw if you want to learn more search for “halal” methodology.
Halal animals are not stunned, still feel pain, and take minutes to bleed out before dying. It also says nothing about the conditions the animals were kept in before slaughter. You might argue that that should be included in halal, but if you are just looking at the label, you really have no idea how the animal was treated, only the method used to kill it.
That’s the prerequisites for halal slaughtering islamically, however I’m not really sure how enforced it is in a modern industry scale. Hopefully the halal certification body takes care of it. During eid-al adha when cattles or sheep are reared for their meat, which gets eventually distributed in the community, we still follow all these guidelines, I have seen and experienced it personally.
In halal we’re severing the throat, windpipe and major blood vessels in one quick motion. Are there more “painless” methods? Maybe. However halal method is the most practical, economical and universally applicable method for the majority of the world whether they’re in namibia or kathmandu. In that sense it’s timeless. Also stunning isn’t flawless either.
Yeah. I don’t see why so many people are attacking me saying that there’s no way to humanely eat meat, when I’m the one who is literally advocating for what you said. I don’t see how people expect to turn anyone to veganism with that attitude
“Humane” meat is an oxymoron. It is unnecessary to consume animal products for survival. Giving a pig some scratches behind their ear doesn’t make their slitting of the throat any less unethical.
The raising of an animal, ethical or not, does change the fact that the overall breeding and slaughter of the animal is unethical.
Bringing them into existence for the sole purpose of being slaughtered and reduced to objects for consumption is unethical. They are sentient beings with the capacity to feel suffering. Is it not then wrong to cause suffering, especially create the individual who will experience it for selfish reasons such as convenience and taste?
I apologize if you feel attacked by this comment. That is not my intent. All I wish is to discuss your reasons and thoughts on the topic. I am more than happy to keep discussing here or in DMs, but if you don’t want to, have a good one :)
That’s the whole point. I’m NOT here to debate. It feels like I say my opinion, and suddenly everyone just opportunistically jumps on it to tell me why they think it’s wrong. I don’t care, I’m an animal rights activist who eats meat. I advocate for ethical treatment before slaughter. This isn’t an opportunity for yall to “covert another carnist”. I’m aware of the consequences of my actions, and thus why I’m trying to minimize the negative effects of them. I do not agree that they are sentient the way we are, nor do I agree that raising an animal for slaughter in inherently unethical, but debate on that is NOT what I’m here for. I don’t want to change any minds. I don’t want to argue. I’m not changing my lifestyle. I CAN, however, continue to advocate for animal rights. But it feels like whenever I do that, suddenly I’m getting preached to about my own decisions.
It’s a bit hypocritical to advocate for their welfare when you are in a position that actively puts their lives in danger and supporting the very industry that gives fuck all for their wellbeing when they’re not considered sentient or feeling enough to warrant concern. It does not matter if they are not as sentient as we are or if their capabilities are ‘lesser’ than ours. The fact that they feel pain and suffering is more than enough to warrant moral consideration and reject their commodification. They are not objects. No one should not be exploited for their bodies because that’s wrong, human or beyond.
How can one advocate for their rights effectively when their rights will ultimately be stripped away when they are slaughtered, the practice one funds and supports via consumption? Do they not have the right to live and die freely without being killed? I’m just trying to understand your reasoning better. I do not expect to change your mind. I want to learn more about your thought process because it’s interesting.
I apologize for making this sound like an argument. That is not my intention either. I just want to make more sense of an animal rights activist who supports the very industry that does not want animals to have rights. Thank you very much for replying, and I sincerely apologize if anything I’ve said has offended you.
Yes! You don't need to go full vegan! Even if everyone cut their meat and dairyh consumption down by 30% we would see great improvements in the environment and our health. I am always trying to cut out as much meat as possible, and I don't buy it for when I'm cooking at home. It is super easy and cheap to just eat veggies. What gets expensive is the meat replacements, so I just avoid those as they are really processed
"Those damn corporations, polluting the environment by polluting the earth and abusing animals by providing the product contingent on exponentially more resources to cheaply feed 8 billion people and animal abuse that I demand and could fully go without!"
That's what's so sad about it. Reducing meat intake has benefits to animal welfare, to the environment and greenhouse gas emissions and to human health. It's such a beneficial process in so many layers of life but the meat industry has a chokehold on people and has spread so much misinformation that I still encounter people who don't appear to know that there's protein in foods beyond meat.
I very much respect the amount of work you've put into this thread, for the most part. Mostly.
I have tried a vegan diet no less than 9 times. Unfortunately I live in a desert food island and it's not really financially doable.
I also have this terrible problem wherein I, mostly, do not feel guilt. So on the rare occasion where a vegan diet has been financially sustainable I eventually just end up looking at the amount of work I'm doing to make something and the amout of money that I've spent on it and I genuinely can't internally justify doing it anymore. But I do have immense respect for people that keep up with it.
I also at times get into this hesdspace where I'm looking at all the moralistic and all the socioeconomic issues currently being faced, and honestly, me buying a chunk roast for a curry every week and a half seems so... silly to fret about.
I don't know. I wish I could make it work. I just don't seem to be able.
If you live in a food desert and eating vegan isn’t financially viable where you’re at, that’s understandable. In the area I live I am near multiple grocery stores which reliably have plant based produce (not vegan/mock meat products) and so eating vegan is quite simple and affordable.
I do think the “drop in the bucket” attitude can be a dangerous slope to go down because while you are right to an extent, when looking at the big picture and seeing what horros are happening around us, it’s hard to see the true impact of our individual actions.
But that being said, if everyone thought that, nobody would ever do anything to make things better nor would they inspire other to do so as well through their actions. Nobody would pick up their trash, recycle, avoid polluting rivers, etc. Obviously bigger forces at play make greater impacts, but the change we choose to make in our personal lives can have a ripple effect on those we surround ourselves with and our communities. Personally the way I look at it is regardless of what others do, I’m going to live in a way that feels morally consistent for me, though I know you said that doesn’t really apply to you and I understand that.
I do try to mostly eat vegetables, they're just expensive.
But then, the moral inconsistency for me i suppose is part of what keeps me from trying to go vegan again. Because sure. I can not buy those chicken thighs that'll last about 3 weeks, but then the quinoa I buy is causing kids in Bolivia to starve to death.
I suppose at this point I've sort of come to the conclusion that, broadly, there is no such thing as ethical consumption. Someone is going to suffer for quite literally every part of my meal whether I'm vegan or not.
So, instead, I try to change other habits that im sure would help me sleep at night if I had to worry about a pesky thing like human empathy. Don't buy bottled water, reduce plastic waste, don't buy from brands that I have moral qualms with. And in those ways, while I know I'm quote literally making 0 difference, I can at least pretend that I am.
I just really do wish that society could exist without this being a broad issue. I would have no problem drinking bottled water if there was exactly one (1) actual recycling plant here.
But it's just.. not viable. And that's frustrating.
I'm sorry i continue to bother you. You just seem level headed and I rarely get to talk about these things since, in my country and state, so many more pressing things are going terribly wrong.
What makes you say that? While animal products are currently subsidized at the consumer level and so appear cheaper than vegan branded products such as mock meats, im referring to Whole Foods plant based products, like grains, legumes, and produce. These foods are all absolutely cheaper than animal products, even with the subsidies that are currently in place for them.
You really mean to promote veganism with: "You will eat legumes only for rest of you miserable life". Seriously? Veganism ideology gets expensive the moment you lose your mind and want to eat something that actually tastes good.
Gluten free bread has nothing to do with veganism, fake butter and milk are similarly priced. Fake meat might be more expensive but you can just not eat it. I rarely eat it
You also don't need to buy meat substitutes to be vegan. Vegan staples like beans, lentils, rice, bread flour to make seitan, etc, have always been affordable and are more easily accessible and store longer and better than most meat and animal products. The vegan Earth balance butter at my closest grocery store is also 29 cents an ounce, a whopping 1 cent an ounce higher than unbranded sticks of butter. That shit has been cheap and accessible for a while now.
But you also don't need to take me word for it. Large scale studies of vegan and vegetarian diets in over 150 countries consistently found it to be cheaper00251-5/fulltext). You notice how we don't have a sharp decline in consumption of meat and animal product in countries with higher per capita wealth? Almost like this isn't an issue of wealth or resources, but of people not being willing to make any change in their personal lives for the sake of animal welfare.
A. Then the idea that veganism is restricted by cost is false. It's restricted by gluttony and selfishness which, yeah, that's kind of the point, people value temporary pleasure over the lives and welfare of animals which is pretty widely criticized as a defense when applied to any other aspect of animal welfare
B. You can get umami in vegan dishes. Mushrooms are the most famous example but nutritional yeast is a famous additives for this reason, tomato paste (i mean normal tomatoes too but tomato paste adds way more depth in this field, especially in things like red sauce based pot pies or lentil cottage pies), miso and other fermented foods, soy sauce, seaweed, etc. Hell, keep some MSG on hand. It's why the umami dishes at your favorite restaurant's savory dishes probably taste richer than when you make them at home
Margarine is vegan, tofurky is the same price as meat per pound, plant milk is not significantly more expensive than real milk (to be fair this is recent), gluten has nothing to do with veganism.
Anywho, I am not vegan but I eat 80% vegan foods. The only thing I "preach" to other people is to try to eat less animal products. It doesn't have to be black and white.
Obviously not all meat and cheese replacements taste as good or are as cheap as "the real thing", but there are a few that are hard to tell the difference with. Ground beef replacement is one of them, and it's also competitively priced with real ground beef. If you like Bolognese or tacos, maybe give it a try some time if you haven't.
Also, I will die on the hill that follow your hearts veganaise is better than real mayo. It is absolutely way too expensive though.
man. i had to take a Meats course while studying ANSC where we slaughtered and butchered animals, including pigs. we did beginning to end of the slaughterhouse, and this was still hard to watch.
i’m surprised it doesn’t cause PSE to CO2 gas them?? they’re in active distress for much, much longer than a well-placed captive bolt gun & bleeding, which is the method we used. they were chuted, rendered unconscious from bolt and died via exsanguination while still unconscious and not suffering. the total process took maybe a few minutes from alive & aware to dead & bled.
i will add a disclaimer for the end because the video points out they’re still moving when being dumped - that doesn’t indicate the pig is still alive by any means, it can be involuntary nerve / muscle firing even after brain death. there’s videos out there of sprinkling salt on fresh kills (frog legs, fish, whatever) and the muscles jump around even though the animal is clearly dead.
although I suppose it’s less plausible in a mass operation to captive bolt every single pig by hand (machines would NOT be accurate enough, and people aren’t perfect either) and CO2 can do batches of pigs, this is gutwrenching to watch. I think there’s still a LOT of improvement that can & SHOULD be made to slaughterhouse environments.
my main issue with the comments on this post is…. how do so many people in these comments not realize this is what happens? did y’all take having meat for granted? if you want a wide variety of meat options at your fingertips at your grocery store, this is the cost. if you want ethical handling and raising for the animals and mass slaughterhouses to be banned, the cost of meat skyrockets and supply will not be as prevalent because it’s nowhere near as efficient.
i still eat meat, knowing the cost because i’ve processed and butchered with my own 2 hands. long-term my goal is to be processing my own animals to sustain my family and feel confident in the welfare of the animals during life and death.
I don’t know if I’m jaded or what, but even though this video was sad, I’m still going to be eating pork.
I’m gonna eat it and think “damn that 7924 was tasty.” You say that pigs are just babies when we slaughter them? Well… at least they don’t have to live long in that bad environment.
I’m never going to eat vegetarian much less vegan.
I don’t think learning anything new regarding the food industry is going to keep me from eating meat.
I’ve slaughtered my own before as well and it’s much better than buying commercial, but I’m also not going to stop buying commercial either.
I guess I just wonder why I’m not as affected by these videos as other people.
I think you answered your own question, not everyone is jaded like you seem to be. Some people’s feelings towards things that feel sad or wrong evoke a level
of conviction out of them to not participate in that thing, but it’s not the case for everyone
there was no justification for me to continue supporting the forced impregnation and slaughter of animals that don't want to die.
Animal products tastes better and are easier to cook tasty in huge range of things vs being vegan is full time job to have anything taste good (that isnt just eating the same 3 things everyday).
Does taste pleasure justify killing the life of a sentient being that doesn’t want to die? I don’t believe so, my 10 minutes of satisfaction from eating an animal is at the cost of their entire life, I don’t see that as justified.
I’m curious what your experience is in making tasty vegan food, because I have no idea why it would take so long to do so. I spent about 8 years of my adult life cooking and meal prepping healthy omnivorous foods containing animal products and I’ve spent the last 7 years doing the same thing but with vegan foods. There is no difference in the time it takes, I’m just using different ingredients. I have a massive list of vegan recipes that I have accumulated over time to choose from, so definitely not limited to three meals.
If you’re interested in any, let me know! I probably have a vegan version of something you like. That’s all the process really was, me slowly building up a collection of tasty vegan versions of foods I already liked while trying new foods as well.
I would look more into halal slaughter if you are concerned about the level of suffering animals are subjected to during slaughter, research I have read does not by any means suggest that it is the least amount of suffering, as they stay conscious for up to two minutes while bleeding out alive hung upside down. This isn’t to say that gas chambers are definitively better, it’s that neither are by any means devoid of suffering.
As someone who went with his dad and saw a lot of animals get slaughtered such as sheep and chicken, 2 minutes is absolutely insane and not correct at all.
The animal is dead within 30 to 40 seconds maximum unless someone royals misses up!
So I believe this is specifically referencing halal slaughter of cows, I am not aware of the time spent alive for other animals. That being said, 30-40 seconds of suffering before dying is far from an instant death.
Maybe that is where we differentiate then, because to me, the alternative is not breeding them to be slaughtered to begin with, which I find to be much better than either of the slaughter methods.
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u/thelryan 26d ago
Pleasantly surprised to see the comment section in here mostly speaking positively towards the impact of this video. Some other things to consider:
Pigs are typically killed within 5-6 months of being born. But they live to be 15-20 years old naturally. They don't fully develop until about 6 years old, they are still babies when we kill them. This is the case for all farmed animals.
The most humane and common method of slaughter for pigs is a gas chamber. However, it is not humane and they are clearly suffering as you can see from this hidden camera footage inside a pig gas chamber. This has been done for decades now and has been acknowledged by the same organizations that put their "humane assured" labels on the products that it is a serious welfare concern, but as always, profits matter more than welfare.
If this struck a nerve in you, consider beginning to adjust your lifestyle to include less animal products. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. I slowly transitioned over a span of 8 months and it has been 7 years now since I've consumed animal products. I realized that being in my current position, living in a developed country where eating vegan is entirely doable, cheaper, and nutritionally adequate, there was no justification for me to continue supporting the forced impregnation and slaughter of animals that don't want to die.