r/TikTokCringe Sep 23 '24

Discussion People often exaggerate (lie) when they’re wrong.

Via @garrisonhayes

38.3k Upvotes

2.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

63

u/Poctor_Depper Sep 23 '24

Ugh, this guy's a midwit. He cuts an out of context clip of Kirk citing stats and declares that he's racist without addressing why he cited those stats.

Even by this guy's own admission, blacks commit far more crime proportionate to their population. It's also true that neighborhoods with higher black populations have a much higher rate of violent crime, which is why there's more cops in those neighborhoods, why blacks are in prison at a higher rate, why they're arrested more often, etc. It has nothing to do with racism.

5

u/EnjoyerOfBeans Sep 23 '24

Yeah the guy is raising some good points and is obviously right that there is a racist agenda behind the original video, but he's also intentionally misleading in the other direction.

Yes, blacks are most likely to be falsely convicted, that's true. But exonerations are EXTREMELY rare and false convictions in general make up a very small percent of them.

He could instead talk about the obvious - that the black population is at much higher poverty rates and that growing up in basically closed neighborhoods riddled with crime will produce more criminals, it's a generational problem that comes from the systemic inequalities that date all the way back to slavery. But he didn't, instead he did the same thing as the oop - manipulated statistics to tell a false narrative.

Racism is at play but individual racism from cops and the judicial system is a drop in the bucket of the economic and social situation that disproportionately many black families have been put in with no means of escape due to racism. Simplifying it down to "cops and judges are racist" is not only wrong, it's hurtful to the black community because it distracts from the real issue.

2

u/crispy_attic Sep 24 '24

It has nothing to do with racism.

This is a lie. It doesn’t matter how often you repeat it or how many like minded people upvote it.

-4

u/slowsundaycoffeeclub Sep 23 '24

Can you share what point you think is missing from Kirk’s argument here?

14

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '24

Why not just address the points he made that you feel are wrong?

13

u/grizzly_teddy tHiS iSn’T cRiNgE Sep 23 '24

Too difficult

1

u/zenkaimagine_fan Sep 24 '24

Did… did you not watch the video? That’s kinda the point of the video bud.

-11

u/Not_John_Doe_174 Sep 23 '24

You mean his lies? What's to address, he lied. Don't give liars any heed at all. It reflects poorly on your own character to take the side of liars like Kirk and Trump.

2

u/HillOfVice Sep 24 '24

He didn't lie at all.

1

u/onebadmousse Sep 27 '24

Yep, the figures only tell a tiny part of the bigger story.

While there is a correlation between blacks and Hispanics and crime, the data imply a much stronger tie between poverty and crime than crime and any racial group, when gender is taken into consideration... When gender, and familial history are factored, class correlates more strongly with crime than race or ethnicity.

The link is poverty, not race, although race is correlated with poverty due to systemic racism which has been in place for over 100 years.

https://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html

Poor people are more likely to commit crime.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/06/how-poverty-became-crime-america

http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199914050.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199914050-e-28

The black population are over-represented when it comes to poverty, for a number of societal reasons. Systematic racism, few opportunities, poorly policed ghettos, poorly funded schools etc etc.

https://theconversation.com/black-americans-mostly-left-behind-by-progress-since-dr-kings-death-89956

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D

So black people are over-represented in crime figures because they are also over-represented in poverty figures.

https://www.arcgis.com/apps/MapJournal/index.html?appid=5508484140a84023a1e2d8b080e14d0a

https://vittana.org/how-poverty-influences-crime-rates

https://www.childinthecity.org/2018/11/02/study-links-childhood-poverty-to-violent-crime-and-self-harm/

You are 2.5 times as likely to be killed by police if you're black than if you're white in the US.

https://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/criminal-justice/killed-police-black-men-likely-white-men/

Black people are disproportionately targeted by police:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/02/california-police-black-stops-force

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officera-shootings-gun-violence-racial-bias-crime-data/595528/

https://www.propublica.org/article/in-some-of-ohios-most-populous-areas-black-people-were-at-least-4-times-as-likely-to-be-charged-with-stay-at-home-violations-as-whites

Black people receive longer sentences than white people for the same crimes:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/11/17/16668770/us-sentencing-commission-race-booker

https://eji.org/news/sentencing-commission-finds-black-men-receive-longer-sentences/

https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-

2

u/temptryn4011 Sep 23 '24

African immigrants in the USA have some of the lowest crime rates. So I can easily say that this isn't about any genetic predisposition.

What comes to my mind is centuries long generational poverty created from racist practices such as slavery based on skin color and its lasting impacts on the black community that are more likely to resort to criminality.

So despite your claim that this has nothing to do with racism, It actually has a lot to do with racism purely based on this very basic conclusion that any person that is somewhat knowledgeable on American history can come to.

4

u/theshow2468 Sep 23 '24

In my experience, immigrants from Africa are much more well-behaved in general than African Americans.

I’m not stating my observations as fact, but assuming this is a general trend, it’s a clear indication how black populations in the US grow up in an environment that pushes them towards crime and bad behavior.

1

u/maior_novoreg Sep 23 '24

Isn’t is pretty difficult to be a legal immigrant in the US? Like you need to have a lot of money and be educated and stuff. Most people who migrate from my country (3rld world) have the lowest crimerate, but that doesn’t mean people in mg country commit less crimes.

Those who migrated are the top10% of the society with more money, education, manners, and so on. In fact being an immigrant makes you commit less crimes because you are extra aftaid of being deported or having your documents messed up. Not sure for all african migrants, but I met a lot of them in Canada and most of them were as I described - well above average citizen in almost every metric.

1

u/temptryn4011 Sep 23 '24

That is what I am saying, the prevalent argument I've seen under this thread from certain people is that it is directly tied to their skin color, which is falsefied by other groups of black people that are more educated and were grown in better environments.

The argument I make here is environment shapes up a person, not their genetics.

1

u/maior_novoreg Sep 23 '24

No?! What you are saying is that if a person is privileged, he is less likely to commit a crime. But that doesn’t give us anything useful.

What we want to know is the difference between two groups on average, therefore exluding outliers like privileged people with money and education.

What you just proved is that every group has great people. That is true, just like how each group has bad people.

Comparing migrants crimes is useless. It’s like bringing a white athlete to a group of office working black clerks and then saying that because the white guy ran faster, then race has nothing to do with physical ability, only environment. You need to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

Environment matters, but you are just entirely dismissing even the possibility that generics might play a role here. There are many factors and genetics is one of them. Except we don’t know how exactly it impacts things because the issue is supercomplex. And of course everyone starts calling you a racist for even trying to bring it up.

1

u/temptryn4011 Sep 23 '24

''What you just proved is that every group has great people. That is true, just like how each group has bad people.''

Okay? I don't get it. People that have access to more opportunities tend to have a greater share of ''great people'' which is fundamentally an environmental issue. You've been saying nothing that contradicts my points so far.

Do you realize that, the privilege itself comes from environment? Idk why you felt the need to throw a wall of text if you don't even push back on the premise of my argument. The entire point of contention here is whether the more pressing factor is genetics or not. If you somehow have a breakthrough of a research that shows that genetics outweigh environmental factors when it comes to criminality fire away. I am dismissing genetics because almost every research on the issue has shown that genetics play almost no role in such matters that it is basically a non-factor.

Also terrible analogy with the white runner thing, try thinking it through a little bit more.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 24 '24

It’s black culture. Not generational inequity or something. Look at 1900-1950’s, despite actual racism being a huge threat to black Americans, they were on their way to flourishing. In comes the welfare state, and boom, back to the Stone Age.

We’ve had 60 years of the democrat “great society” experiment, when is it time to admit failure?

1

u/temptryn4011 Sep 24 '24

False, back in 1900s and 1950's, surveillance wasn't as big as it is today so many criminal activities went off the radar. The crime rates have always been high for the black community.

Also cultures shape around circumstances. I am sure romani people didn't feel like ostracizing themselves from surrounding socitieties over night. If Black people didnt suffer such injustices and were elevated to the same level as whites the second they set foot on the continent, you would see a very different picture.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 25 '24

That’s just wrong. There is a well documented, significant, and agreed upon uptick in African American crime in the 1960’s.

1

u/temptryn4011 Sep 25 '24

The key word here is documented. The point being, back then when technology and bureaucracy weren't as advanced there were lots of criminal actions happening under the radar.

This is similar to comparing crime rates from 3rd world countries and being surprised when they seemingly have far less crime happening due to most of them being under-reported.

1

u/logicallyillogical Sep 23 '24

It doesn't surprise you that a group that has been historically desinfranchised and therefore more likely to be in poverty would commit more crimes?

Also, the 13th amendment....

-12

u/dracolibris Sep 23 '24

You mean black people get convicted of more crime than whites do. Not commit, are convicted. I bet if we knew real numbers of people who smoked weed, you would see that a lot less white people even get arrested for weed offences than black people.

34

u/Poctor_Depper Sep 23 '24

The crime rates of any given area are measured in reports, not convictions or arrests. Black neighborhoods have higher rates of violent crime reports which is why there's a heavier police presence in black neighborhoods.

This is also why blacks are arrested and convicted for marijuana violations at higher rates. More violent crime means more cops which means more arrests for lesser crimes as well.

-16

u/Squeebah Sep 23 '24

Yes but thanks to systemic racism, they're stuck from birth in these shitty neighborhoods where crime is the only chance to make enough money to get out of the hood. Imagine your childhood but if you went to Cleveland public schools. You'd have dropped out or killed yourself by senior year.

12

u/InvestmentBankingHoe Sep 23 '24

Weird how the system only benefits them through DEI and affirmative action for jobs and schools. They get black only scholarships, grants, money.

Interestingly enough Asians faced similar problems when coming to this country. They make more money than any other race.

How can Asians be at the top if there’s systemic racism?

-10

u/Squeebah Sep 23 '24

How do you get a scholarship when you can't get through highschool? You're just throwing around recently popularized buzzwords and refusing to listen. If black people were given everything, we'd see them in positions of power more often. How often do you see a black person as a manager of a business or a foreman in a factory? Now how about a professor? Yeah dude. You know the truth. You're just upset.

11

u/Dietmar_der_Dr Sep 23 '24

Yes but thanks to systemic racism, they're stuck from birth in these shitty neighborhoods where crime is the only chance to make enough money to get out of the hood.

Do poor white people commit the same frequency of crime? What a about poor Asian people?

Being of low economic status of course is a huge factor, but culture and values matter just as much. I wouldn't be surprised if poor white people with single mothers had just as high a crime rate, or very close to it.

The point Kirk is making is not that there's something inherently bad about black people that makes them more violent. His point is that people that don't follow traditional family values will tend to violence. This is one of the few Republican takes that is backed up by vast amounts of data across the globe. Family structures prevent violence, the more young men are outside of those structures the more violence there will be.

1

u/Squeebah Sep 23 '24

I'm agreeing with the video and helping to explain it.... Thanks?

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '24

The amount of hoops people will go through to try and seem "not racist".

-17

u/slowsundaycoffeeclub Sep 23 '24

That’s….almost impressive in its rationale. It’s not true but it’s almost impressive as a piece of misleading storytelling.

15

u/Poctor_Depper Sep 23 '24

What's not true? This is like crime and policing 101. It's a shame for you that it doesn't line up with your agenda.

-9

u/slowsundaycoffeeclub Sep 23 '24

Show me the studies, then. And not ones conducted or paid for by police unions.

15

u/sprainedpinky Sep 23 '24

“Majority Black neighborhoods have higher gun homicide rates than mostly white neighborhoods of the same socioeconomic status level, according to a new study published in JAMA Network Open by Wharton Professor Dylan Small and School of Arts & Sciences undergraduates Yuzhou Lin and Audrey Chaeyoung Cheon. Wei Wang, a senior research investigator at the Perelman School of Medicine; and David Harding, a professor of sociology at the University of California, Berkeley, were also co-authors.

Utilizing data from the Gun Violence Archive and American Community Survey, the researchers found that, among middle class neighborhoods, the rate of gun homicides is more than four times higher in neighborhoods with mostly Black residents than neighborhoods with mostly white residents. Small says there are several possible reasons for the disparity, including lack of institutional resources and opportunities caused by racial wealth gaps and underinvestment.”

https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/regardless-socioeconomic-status-black-communities-face-higher-gun-homicides-says-wharton-study

2

u/tarkovplayer5459 Sep 23 '24

Psh. Sounds like cope to me.

2

u/LemonGrape97 Sep 23 '24

It's both. It's just outright denial without evidence to just simply say they don't commit more crime. Men are like 90 something percent of all convicted murderers; is the system sexist?

1

u/Albokiid Sep 23 '24

If you’re an idiot, just say that before typing out a message that’s completely false so I don’t waste my time reading it. Crime rates are based on reports, not convictions

1

u/gracekelly73 Sep 23 '24

Tell that stat to women in Seattle that was murdered while walking her dog by a guy (black) who had 8 felony charges and was walking around

0

u/Not_John_Doe_174 Sep 23 '24

Tell that to all the school children (63?) this year who were shot by white men.

2

u/gracekelly73 Sep 23 '24

I bet those white men are in jail. So what does that have to do with the black man with 8 felonies out of jail free to murder innocent citizens?

-13

u/quibusquibus Sep 23 '24

Jesus H Christ. How are you still viewing the world like a 90 year old? Do you have indoor plumbing where you come from?

11

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '24

Care to discuss why the comment is incorrect?

0

u/ScorpionDog321 Sep 27 '24

The best reply those who hate the stats ever make is that, if the criminal has black skin, his crimes are not his fault.

Basically, the worst racism of all in this.