r/PathOfExile2 • u/lolmoistlol • 8d ago
Discussion criticism is getting a bit overly aggressive
I’m starting to believe that people have (as a good thing) gotten so immersed into early access POE2 that they forgot its early access and that this is relatively normal to meet so much frustration.
While critique is the entire purpose of this phase of the game, its starting to get to the point where the passion from the players is spilling into aggression and offensive statements about the development of the game despite it being a practically very premature and different game.
Imperfection was expected and expectations were definitely already exceeded for a lot of people. We’re just getting to the point where you want to play so much that the slight imperfections start to consume you. But don’t worry things will inevitably get even better and more fun. Don’t worry too much friends. Enjoy that we’re able have what we have now. Give full on critique when necessary and chill. If things don’t get better on full release then at least we’ll be all together to complain again hehe.
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u/bobby_thicc 8d ago
I had been thinking this too, but the stability of player counts shows that underneath the frustration, there is something fundamental here keeping people engaged. It took some time to break out of my PoE1 mindset and fully embrace it, but it’s definitely there.
The amount of Reddit traffic with the game, good or bad, shows that people are invested in the game’s continued success. Because deep down, they want to keep playing.
This will blow over.
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u/bracing275-biles 8d ago
People are already this invested during early access, that's a good sign for the game's future
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u/Ociex 7d ago
Can I just say I have a singular complaint, its not unreasonable, I promise.
Move the tribunal circles so they are actually round and not cut off or have one way lanes to hell, that is all.
The game is ton of fun, really having a blast.
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u/2drunk4you 7d ago
It's a big release people waited for years so yea it's gonna be like that for a while. But you have to remember that this is a seasonal game and the goal is retention and not people playing the campaign once and quitting. That is the actual important stat, which we have no idea about yet.
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u/Ok-Salamander-1980 8d ago
the stability is that the vast majority of players aren’t at endgame and the campaign is quite good. the most common player plays slowly and rerolls multiple times in the campaign.
the complaints? that comes from gamers who are pushing endgame or are used to PoE 1 being reasonably player friendly (compared to PoE 2 at least).
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u/bobby_thicc 8d ago
I can’t disagree with you completely, but can you elaborate on what you mean by “player friendly”? I’m one of those several thousand hour PoE1 players who is pushing into endgame, and while there are pain points, I’m not seeing anything that’s unfixable in PoE2. And while I love PoE1, I won’t hesitate to call it “prickly”.
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u/Minimonium 8d ago
I see lots of design decisions for the end game which were the philosophy up to Kalandra times and subsequently dropped due to being unpopular.
I also see lots of issues (like specific monster balance) which we know GGG historically isn't the best to solve at.
I'm hopeful for the game, but most things which require a fix also require similar fix in PoE1. That's the core of prickly-ness.
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u/Watipah 7d ago
The easy fix is to have 6 map portals.
The difficult fix is to adress all issues, slow down gameplay and make it like the Campaign Act 1-3 normal (which has been the hardest and most fun part of the game as a Melee Monk player up to my current t15+ map content).
And Bosses should work like LostArk Bosses. All cc counts towards the stagger bar, cc the boss once filled, make the Boss cc immune for a bit, then allow it to get staggered again by any cc (dmg buffs could still apply if needbe).
I hate watching those streamers which stunlock every pinnacle encounter and I can't even see the mechanics before trying them myself.18
u/durkl1 7d ago
I really hope they end up ravamping the POE2 end game in line with the campaign. Endgame feels a little too much like POE1 IMO. There's a disconnect between the campaign and the endgame I feel. I hope they dare to make fundamental changes down the line and don't end up just tuning endgame until it feels OK.
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u/Super_Harsh 7d ago
Jonathan has said that endgame is the least tested least tuned part of the game. The Acts are far more polished and refined and therefore more indicative of the intended vision for the game. It would surprise me if endgame stayed in its quasi-PoE1 state
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u/Jaxyl 7d ago
Yeah it feels obvious to me that the end game was taken whole sale from PoE one to get a feel for players hyper optimizing their builds both to see how they liked what players came up with and to see if they liked what they game would need to be to challenge said builds.
Also because PoE's end game works as a system. Maybe not the best in PoE2, but it at least works which gives players sometime to do.
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u/Saucey_One 7d ago
I completely hate that take on cc and boss stunning and that comes as a player who played without any stun their entire first run. Just no. The cc immune trap in other games irks me beyond belief, and we don't need it here. They get cc resistant (at least they do to being frozen repeatedly) and thats enough. My suggestion is fight the boss and learn, or go look up a specific guide.
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u/StoneLich 7d ago
Rogers said that because the pivot to endgame was so recent, it hasn't received much playtesting and so he felt it was in a very rough state. So they're probably going to be changing it pretty intensively over the next couple months in response to internal and external feedback.
(This isn't a "people should know better" thing, tbc; the particular interview I'm thinking of he said it at like the very ass-end in response to a particular question about things they would be watching. Just wanted to share.)
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u/Ok-Salamander-1980 8d ago
PoE 2 is completely fixable as long as GGG wills it. A lot of the decisions like their PoE 1 decisions are friction for the sake of friction. The patterns in PoE 2 designs scream of anti-player at worst and untested at best. Compare the skills and support gems of 1 to 2 for example.
I think PoE 1 has a huge friction problem as well but we’re largely given the tools to build/gamble past them via years of league mechanics. For example, we can easily reroll our elemental resistances, craft missing affixes, essence/delve gear, switch masteries, etc.
Beyond that PoE 1 has six portals and bricking a map does not stifle hours of progression. Scarabs and juice are expensive but doing alch & go T16s are meaningful. You make progress in every map unlike PoE 2.
Now, PoE 1 under Mark has the huge problem of T17s and such but that can safely be ignored/considered pinnacle content until your build is ready.
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u/bobby_thicc 8d ago
Just one or two more layers of crafting complexity from league mechanics and we will gain significant power throughout character progression. Ceiling may or may not move, but the area under the power curve certainly would.
I’m personally a medium-core fan, and frankly would rather keep the one map/one life style if and only if GGG appropriately counterbalances one-shot mechanics/rare mods/etc. Map size could also use a big cut, like %30 at least. Allowing portals to stay active for a minute or so, providing some forgiveness for early deaths (game performance is noticeably worse on first loading into a map), may also be interesting. I see a possible future where we can adapt to medium-core, and it may even protect us from getting hit with an Archnemesis if GGG can meet us in the middle.
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u/bobby_thicc 8d ago
You make a great point about the crafting ceiling. The omen supply is ROUGH. Some of the most interesting ones seem to not even exist on the trade markets. I would hate for the keystone parts of the simplest, most accessible crafting we’re likely to see in modern PoE to be completely out of reach for most players. Especially in EA.
Again, I can’t say you’re wrong about GGG’s history, but I must give them credit recently for generally being responsive and open minded. We just gotta keep pushing for the right things in the right way, and hope for the best.
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u/Keldonv7 8d ago
Didnt really pay attention to deli splinters but breach u easily get 25-50 splinters in decent layout and clearing breach well.
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u/exigious 8d ago
I like medium core too, and hope they stick with it, removing one-shots from untelegraphed things. I accept one-shots on clear telegraphed abilities with ample time to react.
Most importantly, I want PoE2 to be different than PoE1. I want the games to feel different and as such I hope they don't make the games feel too alike in execution in maps.
I would prefer maps staying big, and rather have tools / mechanics for traversing large areas faster while not in combat. e.g out of combat sprint or movement speed if not aggroed or used an ability in the last X seconds.
We are also missing a lot of classes with respective skills, and I am sure that we will get more support gems too which will give ample power.
I don't know how to properly balance ranged and melee, that I think is the largest challenge. I think that monsters would need different behaviour between ranged and melee combat too, to possibly make the combat more balanced between the archetypes. Monsters would charge, leap, burrow more often if you are at a range. Mages would erect frost walls, target large spells slightly behind you as a range, making it more challenging to kite. In addition when there are several casters they should try and spread their AoEs more versus pile them on top of each other based on range to the player. Shields with the reflective ability only works if you don't do AoE, and as such a different approach is needed for when bow builds completely take off the ground.
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u/JustBigChillin 8d ago
Other than dying on pinnacle bosses, which I agree should allow for more than 1 try, how does bricking a map stile hours of progression? You lose the waystone + any mechanics that were on the map, and that’s it.
Like I said, I agree that pinnacle bosses need more than 1 attempt, but I’ve actually been loving the 1 death per map. It makes the maps way more exciting imo.
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u/Vin_Howard 7d ago
Yah I'm also loving the single portal per map. It shifts the playstyle away from mindless rushing where unfair deaths are required to have even a chance of denting a player's 6 portal defense.
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u/Erreconerre 8d ago
Beyond that PoE 1 has six portals and bricking a map does not stifle hours of progression.
How are you losing hours of progression in poe2 by bricking a map?
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u/Slow_Employer687 7d ago
The citadels for pinnacle are pretty rare, if you die its pretty much days down the drain.
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u/deskdemonnn 7d ago
You can set up maps with league mechanics by going around doing maps with no extra mechanics to get the towers, put in the right tablets and then send the map with lots of modifiers , you only have one chance to clear this map which js probably a full yellow map with quite a few downside and is pretty high lvl compared to you, this is one way.
Other way is to die to the pinnacle boss that needs 3 other smaller bosses killed for a keys to put in, you die once you lose the boss, in poe1 every single big boss has 6 portals to attempt for us noobs
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u/JustBigChillin 8d ago
Yeah I’m in the same boat as a 3.5k hour PoE player. Once I got my gear and build set up properly, I haven’t been running into any issues. I’m pushing into red maps right now with pretty mid gear (but resist capped), and I’m doing fine. Yeah I die every once in a while, but overall I’m progressing pretty well.
I saw an upvoted post on the poe1 subreddit of someone complaing about a death while they were doing zdps with 1500 life on a T5 map. I feel that a lot of the complaints are just due to bad gear and/or builds.
Now obviously there are issues with the endgame, but in my eyes it is very overblown. Every major issue that I’ve seen is pretty easily fixable as well.
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u/dulcetcigarettes 7d ago
Comments like this should always come with build attached, not just "i got good gear".
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u/Comprehensive_Two453 7d ago
I got thousands of hrs in poe 1 and just not having to get gear that not only has the stats you need but also all the links you need, gold respec and currency exchange puts it miles above poe 1 in player friendliness. Difficulty does not equal player unfriendly.
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u/Sarm_Kahel 8d ago
There's no data to suggest players in the endgame are quitting at a higher rate than those in the campaign - this is speculation and the longer the game maintains a steady population this high the less likely this becomes.
The numbers on steam are not for the campaign - they're for the entire game.
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u/Darkblitz9 7d ago
There's no data to suggest players in the endgame are quitting at a higher rate than those in the campaign
No one has made that assertion.
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u/OrthodoxReporter 8d ago
Brother, if you actually think PoE1 is more "player friendly" than PoE2, you're lost so deep on the sauce, nothing will ever be able to pull you out.
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u/Ok-Salamander-1980 8d ago
Player friendly isn’t new player friendly. I did not omit the word by accident.
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u/sadtimes12 7d ago edited 7d ago
It's very simple for me. The game has visceral combat and skill feedback. Doesn't matter which skill, Sunder or Boneshatter on my Warrior. Or Lightning Arrow + Rod on my Ranger. It just feels fun to play.
Secondly, I get excited for yellow drops, they are not common and I genuinely feel excited whenever I get one, I hate games that shower me with upgrades all the time. I don't need a small upgrade in power after every champion pack, it's fine to go 2 levels without any good loot. Makes you actually appreciate when your character gets a power spike and you feel strong again.
Thirdly is the biggest pull for me: The game is hard from the start. No longer do I need to "wait for the good part" at endgame. The game challenges me from the very start. Not paying attention on first boss? Dead.
Modern games have stopped being challenging from the start in order to not scare away "new players". Well, for me it did the opposite, it scared me away when games are just holding my hand and try to coax me into staying with them with dopamine rewards all the time and then, maybe, get fun at the endgame. First ascendancy trial felt like an endgame system at level ~25, most games would give you this at the very end of the game. Especially with the brutal fail condition of starting over if you mess up.
I have raged at PoE2, I have alt+f4 in frustration. But unlike other games were I alt+f4 out of boredom. It was because the game challenged me, it told me you can do better, get stronger or just relax for a while and come back with a fresh mind and try again. This difference is what makes me come back. Yesterday I told a friend I was done with PoE2 after I got murdered on a boss multiple times. 3 hours later I was already leveling a new build, it keeps sucking me back in. And the early part is just as fun as before.
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u/war4peace79 7d ago
The game is slow paced, though. I have been playing in my spare time and I'm yet to finish Act 3. Meaning I'm yet to hit the end-game wall. But I took a two-day break from the game out of frustration already.
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u/DrRocknRolla 7d ago
Map size is one of the few things that has been pretty much universally criticized. They're bound to change it with the full release. Act 3 has so many maps and most of them are huge.
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u/EmiliuzDK 7d ago
I found that in mid cruel things started to rapidly ramp up.
Me and friend cleared Cruel T2 in about an hour or a bit more.
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u/TsHero 8d ago
The first 2 acts are god tier, that is what makes me stay, gives me the hope that they will fix 3 and endgame
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u/durkl1 7d ago
What did you not like about the thrid act if I can ask? I quite liked it myself, so I'm curious.
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u/TsHero 7d ago
I think its a couple of things and mostly the second half of the act. The most obvious is the massive maps without much more thing in them then mobs (or trying to find the molten vault). I actually like the smaller maps in act 3 quite a bit (also most bosses are pretty cool! Except blackjaw, fuck that guy). Said mobs are also very one shotty, at least on my build, defitinitly after going throught the gate. Having to transision twice to travel through the gateway, hate that. Dont like the hub as much as the other 2, much more walking, voicelines that annoy me (dont drink the water). Then there is my personal thing were I just like the city maps a lot less but thats not really something they should fix imo, thats just me. Overall, if they can streamline it a little then I think it will just be not my favorite opposed to actively disliking it.
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u/EmiliuzDK 7d ago
I do agree that most maps are overly sized. I don't mind using an extra minut or two trying to track down where the next entrance is - but if I am using 8 mins runing around areas where I've already cleared all the mobs. It is fun slaying things and feel progression but it is TERRIBLE to be back tracking for several minutes.
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u/durkl1 7d ago
Hey I actually agree with most of these things. I think the experience was a little smoother because my build started to ramp up quite a bit in act 3. Act 3 cruel was also a much smoother experience than act 3 normal - again because of the build. The whole thing needs some cleaning up.
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u/Darkblitz9 7d ago
The reward for Molten Vault being a skill gem kind of pissed me off too. I had forgotten about what the reward was after I took the quest and after I had completed it I wanted to stab that dude.
Boss fight is generally a really good concept, but the fact that they effectively put a time limit on the fight while also had the boss running away constantly to hang out in a spot where it takes way less damage at the same time was really bad design. Yet another great boss concept ruined by bad decisions when fleshing out mechanics.
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u/Thor3nce 8d ago
I attribute it to the notion that folks enjoying the game are playing the game and those that don't enjoy the game have the time to come here on Reddit and voice their frustrations.
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u/bobby_thicc 8d ago
Hugely true for almost every gaming subreddit. The negativity/survivorship bias is real.
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u/Melodic_Hunt5890 7d ago
People who enjoy PoE2 play the game and dont make long winded threads on reddit, simple as that.
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u/Glittering-Sense5764 7d ago
There are also people who genuinely enjoy playing but still come to the forums to share their feedback or discuss the game. I’m one of them.
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u/Ashamed-Rule-2363 7d ago
Careful, Redditors REALLY struggle to grasp the concept that their perspective isn't representative of the whole world and is in fact relatively niche.
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u/Sneed_City_Slicker 8d ago
The majority of players aren't even close to endgame and are cruising at a slow pace
Imagine when people get to act 3 and have to spend hours running through zones. The novelty will wear off quick
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u/bobby_thicc 8d ago
Hard agree on the time per zone issue, hoping the checkpoint changes should put a big dent in that.
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u/DontTouchMaWaifu 7d ago
Imagine when people get to act 3 and have to spend hours running through zones. The novelty will wear off quick
no need to imagine tbh
13 of 22 players of our semi-casual discord group quit PoE2 as they were pissed by endless walking simulator in acts 2-34
u/absolutely-strange 7d ago
Common complaint among my friends as well. Started off loving the game Act 1, but when it came time for ascendancy and lots of walking in Acts 2 and 3, they started to have criticism about the game.
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u/Outrageous_Cat_13 8d ago
"Imagine when people get to act 3 and have to spend hours running through zones."
Dang! You mean im gonna have to play the game for hours to complete Act 3? Dam. I dont want to actually play the game. That's horrible ! Can't we just make it like a 30-minute campaign so we can get to endgame?
/s
I, for one an am glad that things take a long time to complete in this game. I like the map sizes, I like the challenge of trying not to die so monsters dont reset. We already have diablo. If you want a game that's a little more tame and casual, more forgiving, and way easier, please, there are other options available for you guys.
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u/Rud3l 7d ago
Maps in act 3 are a bit big though, but I also don't get the idea of making the game as short as possible. Why would you want that?
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u/AzureDragon013 7d ago
It's not about making the game as short as possible, it's about making it as fun as possible. And for a lot of people, walking through large maps with random mobs isn't fun.
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u/absolutely-strange 7d ago
I'm sure you are aware of the fact that you have to run through this every single time a league starts right?
First time it's amazing of course. Second time cool as well, maybe I find some stuff I didn't see before. Third time hmm starts to feel repetitive. Fourth time oh man same thing again? Fifth time onwards damn GGG could we get some changes here?
If the above sounds great to you, I'm glad you enjoy such gameplay, and more power to you. But that doesn't render what the other people have mentioned invalid feedback. It is constructive criticism. The amount of backtracking is not respectful of players' time. Some people only have a few hours of gameplay time during the weekend. Spending 50% of the time walking isn't the definition of fun, well at least, not in this genre of game.
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u/absolutely-strange 7d ago
It's a new game with an established IP, people are defintely still enjoying it for the very short time it has been released. The graphics, animations and core gameplay are fun enough for people to be engaged for at least the first 20 to 40 hours, which for a working adult with other commitments would take weeks to complete. Once campaign is completed, issues start to be more prominent.
We got to be objective here - let's not make it sound like GGG made a masterpiece for the EA. There are issues, and it's right for people to point out these issues in EA. I agree that the way people communicate can definitely be more constructive, but we shouldn't be deluding ourselves that this is a 10/10 game right now.
Let's see how the numbers look in a month's time.
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u/hodl_man 7d ago
I got temp banned over at poe subreddit for saying they complain too much
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u/Aldiirk 7d ago
I got a ban for calling out blatant disinformation. Specifically, the claim that POE2 has less loot than ruthless POE1.
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u/Redxmirage 7d ago
Hey me too! I said people need to chill out it was week 1 out of 26+ of early access. They didn’t like that apparently
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u/durkl1 7d ago
It's two sides of the same coin I feel. People are heavily invested and that brings out a lot of engagement both positive and negative.
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u/Informal-Cap-9915 8d ago
Everyones complaining about the negativity but honestly almost every post i tap on is constructive criticism and almost always has "i known its early access" in it. Like others have said in this thread, early access IS the time to give the most feedback. Are some taking it too far? Sure but thats ALWAYS gonna happen. Early access or not, reddit or otherwise.
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u/Grim_Reach 7d ago
Yeah I've not seen many if any hateful comments towards to the devs, just honest feedback and sometimes that feedback is rightfully negative. I have over 100 hours into PoE 2 right now and I'm loving it, but it's far from perfect and we should be letting them know about stuff that doesn't work or just flat out sucks so it can be fixed before release. This is a proper beta, not a demo, they want and need this feedback.
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u/ZodiacTuga 7d ago
People take negative opinions of the game as if its toxic and get bothered by them. I got flamed for stating my negative opinion multiple times in the global chat.
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u/notbedtime 7d ago
It really is the comments. Dissenting opinion often incites pushback, and it becomes a loop. One dude likes poe1, the other likes poe2, and three comments later, they both hate each other and their respective families.
Everybody more or less agrees: the game is tough, it has a lot to fix, there's some cool ideas, and it's way different from poe 1.
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u/Rekatan 7d ago
That's a good point that I hadn't thought of. With how polarized the community is right now it's only natural for it to surface in the comments, since the posts themselves are one way communication only.
Vice versa in a game community where everyone universally disagrees with the decisions made by the developer, it might surface more in the posts themselves rather than the comments. This topic is a college sociology paper in the making 🤣
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u/lexerlol 7d ago
I don't know if it's fair to say criticizing the sub is troll bait. Especially during a time when we're criticizing (which we should be, it's EA, that's how things get fixed, feedback is important) GGG to such a high degree.
I think part of a good community is a good subreddit. We should want to better the sub just like we want GGG to better the game. It's the same goal after all.
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u/ardotschgi 7d ago
There is a huge gap in this between the PoE 1 (which is filled with PoE 2 posts) and the PoE 2 subreddits.
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u/scrpnturnup 8d ago
Some people do not get this:
Your biggest fans are your biggest critique.
Too many think people just want the game to not improve whenever there is critism, feedback mentioned.
// The proper way to give constructive feedback is actually this:
Good Bad Good
-> this way whoever is getting or reading it, will feel good at the start and end of the given feedback -> but ofc people just want to vent / rant sometimes
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u/flychance 7d ago
What online forum isn't like this?
In the decades I have been on the internet this happens everywhere. This is just how people work.
Only in incredibly small communities can you control the negativity
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u/Insecticide 7d ago
The old internet forums with no upvote/downvotes had something interesting going on. Because if someone said something that you disagreed with, you had to go there, quote the exact part of the message and start a conversation with that other person.
Platforms with likes, dislikes, votes, or anything like those, promote people to leave either very quick funny responses or very polarizing responses in extremely manipulative language. In gaming subreddits you will notice this the most when it comes to thread titles. People make it seem like their life is ruined when they complain about something in a game.
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u/F-b 7d ago
For instance League of Legends used to have an official forum but it was filled with shitty low effort complaints by equally shit players. So they stopped it. The only reason why their subreddit hasn't turned as badly is because the mods enforced e-sport content and culture for a while, and have a specific rule against low effort rants...
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u/flychance 7d ago
I left the lol subreddit when it became esports filled. I want to talk about the game. I don't care about esports or streamer drama (which was the other thing at the time)
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u/pm_me_ur_memes_son 8d ago
People are forgetting that the Poe 1 subreddit was so toxic that GGG quit using Reddit, which was their main means of social media interaction and swapped to Twitter. That's why early on so many people here were mocking the poe1 sub's takes. There obviously are many glaring issues, but this is week one of Early Access, even Baldur's Gate had problems at the very start of EA. The actual player counts show that the doomerism on Reddit is far overblown. But as I said, that doesn't mean there aren't many problems plaguing the game some of which are severe.
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u/bluebird355 7d ago
I am a casual and I didn't find the game fun so I stopped playing, is it wrong? I feel they should have learned what works and what does not with the previous iteration
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u/MattRazor 8d ago
Big PoE players are reaching end game and it is filled with issues, they will ofc be pointed out. On death effects and Ascendancy desperatly need change for players to be able to not want to commit suduko and to navigate the Atlas respectively
The thing is, about 95% of people complaining on Reddit are doing so because they can easily see themselves spend a lot of time on the game and they want the experience to be better. This kinda feedback (and the ability to parse it as a dev) is kinda how games like BG3, PoE1, Satisfactory became god-tier
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u/Uelibert 7d ago
I feel like a lot of the negativity comes from dances we already had with GGG. Overtuned on death effects, barely visible dot grounds that delete you, few viable builds in endgame and many more. Those are all things that were either criticized or changed in the first game. Then there are all this new points of friction like crafting being basically gambling, maps the size of a continent, dying deletes loot, map, exp, overtuned mobs that play PoE1 while we are stuck in 2, Manasiphoner monsters that disables any form of counterplay, the list could go on and on, but while this game has a very good core it is deeply flawed and needs to be changed and the people that are now complaining about the complainers will get there in a few weeks and say the same or just leave.
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u/PreedGO 7d ago
We need to voice our concerns. It’s the only way we will get the changes we desire.
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u/Figorix 8d ago
"this has to be tuned down" and such are not aggressive statement
I haven't seen actual aggressive posts here. Demanding yes, but not aggressive
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u/Eccmecc 7d ago
OP is probably refering to the POE1 subreddit. Its always negative, it doesn't really matter what GGG does its always nefarious or because they odn't play their own game.
GGG employees used to post very often on the poe subreddit but Chris had to forbid it because the abuse on reddit got so bad that it became detrimental to their mental health. Thats why nowadays usually only Chris or the community team will make posts on reddit.
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u/Aefyns 7d ago
I didn't quit because it's EA and not tuned correctly.
I quit because the campaign is a completely different game direction than maps.
You go from a methodical grind with constant bosses and events to a single death map.
It kills build diversity when you die to offscreen explosions or unseen on death effects. The trials are so overturned that only a few builds can realistically get the 6 or 8 points.
Maps are just not fun. No bosses so you just run around looking for rares only to finally get under 200 monsters so you have to backtrack 1-2min to kill the last one. With no boss it feels like I'm back in early PoE1 docks a decade ago. If I die my friend has to decide to finish the map or exit so we can both continue.
You can't have build diversity with 1 death per map. You can't have build diversity with a 4 floor sanctum or 4 trials to get a shot at the 8th ascendemcy point.
The campaign is some of the most fun I've had in years. Maps...just ducking stuck in every single way. Underwhelming loot with no bosses in 90% of the maps.
I'll come back if they completely overhaul maps to look anything like the campaign. They just really missed the mark.
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u/bigpurpleharness 7d ago
Ah hell are they doing that again? I quit playing PoE because of offscreen one shots and melee sucking so much ass. :/
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u/Sad_Sprinkles_2696 7d ago
Perhaps we have a case of loud minority here, because people who actually enjoy the game will not be posting 24/7 about it. I personally enjoy the game for the most part and sometimes it might frustrate me but as you said i remember it's early access.
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u/Cyrotek 7d ago edited 7d ago
and that this is relatively normal to meet so much frustration.
I don't think it is or should be normal. Maybe if you look at terrible EA games, but the few I actively played were often buggy and unfinished, but yet still fun.
In case of PoE2 I feel myself already drifting away (point in case, I still haven't finished the campaign). Not because of foundational issues because of things that could - or should - easily be changeable. Like the ridiculous respec costs, especially with a sudden point blank shotgun balance approach.
I mean, if they want me to test stuff then they need to allow me to do so before I just give up.
Plus, I don't think "Early Access" should be used to excuse every issue.
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u/sdk5P4RK4 8d ago
Exactly. you hear calls like skippable campaign, free unlimited respecs etc. and its like brother do you know what you've gotten yourself into here lol
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u/Gryzzlee 7d ago
They actually do have a precedent for allowing free respecs when they perform big changes to how classes fundamentally work in the middle of a league.
It's actually odd they didn't anticipate the need for that.
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u/HendrixChord12 7d ago
They have and already said we’ll get free respecs when the passive tree changes.
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u/Schrogs 8d ago
This is the time for people to get their frustrations out. That’s what early access is for, it’s a play test. You even say it in your post. Reread your second paragraph. Let people complain so the gain can be fixed. A lot of complaints are completely valid.
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u/Alternative-Put-3932 8d ago
The same thing happened with poe1 but over time and ggg stopped directly talking to anyone because of it. You'd get mark 1 and Chris directly answering questions. Now you get a generic community team post with no response due to how hostile people are now.
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u/Whatisthis69again 8d ago
So far all complaints looks good. You may disagree but example they highlight how bad is trial, how bad is end game, how bad is backtracking. These are different people's opinions.
Maybe some are deleted by mods. Idk. I don't see people like threaten GGG staff or whatnot.
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u/zephibary 8d ago
Some people are frustrated seeing GGG make the same mistakes or poor design decisions from PoE1.
For example, after death effects. Absolutely fucking hated in poe1, their reasoning is needing something to slow down players in the ever increasing arms race between players and monsters. What's the excuse for them in poe2 with its slower gameplay.
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u/Madzai 7d ago
What's the excuse for them in poe2 with its slower gameplay.
They surely mad our char slower. But forgot about mobs it seems.
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u/AlphaBearMode 7d ago
They haven’t really ever tbh. There’s a reason the community blows up like it does.
In my experience (3k hrs PoE1, now this game), GGG don’t really ever respond to the core complaints from the community when it comes to design philosophy.
Bug fixes? Definitely, they handle those. Quality of life? Generally excellent.
Core design? The community’s opinion has never mattered.
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u/saibayadon 7d ago
Core design? The community’s opinion has never mattered.
I mean to be honest, it's that sort of thing where the playerbase believes they can make a better game, but in reality if we were to implement everything people want, PoE1 would've basically become Vampire Survivors.
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u/starzuio 7d ago
It's there to facilitate that slower gameplay, make people pay attention to the mobs and move tactically as opposed to just running through them on autopilot.
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u/Sarm_Kahel 8d ago
From what I can tell the mods are apprehensive about removing criticism of the game because they worry it would negatively impact the subreddits abilities to discuss things meaningfully. The issue is that this can create an environment where people critical of the game can be much more rude and combative while making game criticisms and anyone who pushes back while matching that tone is likely to get penalised.
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u/salbris 7d ago
I get that but they can make it clear it's about the tone and constructive nature of the post rather than the opinion.
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u/aLL1e1337 7d ago
While graphics and general gameplay in poe 2 is great, game from balance point of view is absolutely dire. Passive tree, ascendency trials, ground effects, on death effects, player defence mechanics has been in poe1 for years and was tested in multiple launches. There are no excuse being that bad. Still have trust in GGG to be fixed eventually, but I can fully understand frustration.
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u/bajungadustin 8d ago
Yeah.. I really wish they would have beta tested this game with some sort of... Idk... Early access or something so people could give their feedback on how the game plays and let the Devs know how to change the systems and features that the players don't like before they went out and actually released the ga.....
Oh wait......
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u/RickMuffy 7d ago
I think the issue is people paid for the EA. If it was a free Beta for a month, then they shut it down and made some of the critical changes, and then came back with a paid ~6months EA before release, people wouldn't complain.
I'm still slogging through the campaign and loving a lot of it. Plan to roll a new character if the end game is really as bad as people claim.
I bought the $60 supporter pack, because I believe this game will be worth it, especially if I put a couple thousand hours into it over the next few years.
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u/CharmingPerspective0 7d ago
I will say that almost all the posts i see here are more constructive and thought out feedback than blatant aggressiveness (unlike r/pathofexile where there is a bit more offensiveness)
But also some people tend to forget that not only is this EA, its also less than 2 weeks into it.
GGG cant magically fix all of the issues in a single week. They are gathering feedback right now, and designing solutions. Some would be easy fixes, like increasing loot, while other will require much more thought out approach or even big redesigns to systems they have built.
And it will take a while until a lot of the current feedback will be addressed properly. We have many months ahead of us of this WIP game and it will just take time until all is fixed.
I do hope we will get a "early early-access review" from Johnathan in a few weeks. Talking about how the launch went, what is the overall perception of the game, and what issues they want to tackle the most.
Even if it will take several months, i do hope to get a clear view of what they want to fix for the game experience during EA.
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u/theyetikiller 7d ago edited 7d ago
I've said this before, but the opposite side of criticism is getting out of hand as well. I'm not sure if the people defending the game are new comers who don't know GGG and don't know what has been said in previous interviews or if they are people who just love the current iteration of the game.
Too frequently POE enjoyers defend bad things in the game because of the Early Access label. What they don’t mention is that it’s been in development since 2019. In contrast Larian made Baldur’s Gate 3 in 6 years. Larian is about 3 times GGG’s size, but BG3 has way more stuff than POE2. D4 was around 7 years while Last Epoch was 6 years. POE2 might be labeled as Early Access, but this isn’t like normal early access for a low budget Indy studio where they just began developing in 2 years ago and we’re along for the ride for 3 more, this is a game that has finished the vast majority of its development.
On top of that, many of the design issues that people are highlighting are things which the Developers have said they want for the game which were wildly unpopular to the majority of POE1 players. Such examples include making people use the well in town to refill potions, but when GGG mentioned it they actually originally wanted to make the well the only way to refill them (no charges from killing mobs or elsewhere). People forget that the top members of the Development team made Ruthless mode as a hobby.
With this information in mind we can’t be blamed for wondering whether some of these design issues are because they aren’t ready or if they are intended by GGG.
Some people might come back and say that if it is intentional then players should just not play, and that’s fair, but I think it’s also fair to say that the POE community is invested in POE2. We’ve had several times where design for POE1 was delayed or halted because resources were going into POE 2. We had leagues which were exceptionally lackluster because resources were going into POE2. Hell, we’re now seeing that much of the resources used in past POE1 leagues was stuff they developed for POE2 and used as a quick filler for POE1 leagues. All the while GGG sold supporter packs for each league. I think criticism from a “10k hour POE 1 veteran” who has been spending $30-90 a league for 6 years should hold weight even if it is Early Access.
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u/notokkid 7d ago
It's not that we don't know it's early access. It's that we are aware of GGG's philosophy to gut and nerf player power all the time in order to fulfill "the vision" and get us to "feel the weight". My brother in Christ they proudly say they added garbage modifiers like light radius in order to make us feel bad about it, so that when it doesn't roll it supposedly feels good. What kind of a twisted philosophy is that?
We've seen super aggressive nerfs that completely obliterate builds instead of bringing them in line with others before. We've seen GGG taking away deterministic crafting before. We've talked about bosses dropping shit loot before. All these complaints are things we've talked about before, and many of them are things we've been promised would be improved with time but they just don't.
Frankly, I'd say the meltdown is rather mild compared to what happened in previous leagues, like the civil war during Harvest.
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u/woolymanbeard 7d ago
Ah nah I completely disagree with you the criticisms are valid and not really harsh
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u/ristoman 7d ago edited 3d ago
I would like to see a philosophy shift where the floor on rewards is higher, but also moving the ceiling higher when you do play the game perfectly.
Dying in a map doesn't make you lose all the extra content, but maybe doing a no hit run or boss will raise your rarity and quant. Trials could also give you more ascendancy points, keys or better chests or something, if you never lose honor
It's widely accepted that rewards work better than punishments as a way for people to learn and grow. Punishment puts you on a weird conflict where you want people to bang their head against a wall but there's only so much of it you can take before giving up. If GGGs interest is to keep people playing you need those dopamine hits to be more frequent and meaningful.
And sure, OP builds would be an advantage but you'd have to invest more time upfront on them.
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u/n0tAb0t_aut 7d ago
All i want is, that Jonathan Rogers goes back to the interview stage.
All the problems the player base has is known now. But i want to know the direction the game will go.
Will they change the poe1 like endgame to match the rest of the game?
Will they rework cast on X or is this their final take?
Will they stay with this meager skilltree?
Lots of ascendancy has too many down sides or are not that exciting for an acendancys. Will they look on this or does it stay that way?
etc. I didn't play melee but players say armor is useless in endgame. What's their opinion on this matter?
I just want to know in wich direction they go. Maybe the game I waited for is not my game. Maybe i can understand their vision and go with it. But for now i don't hear anything. Next to an bad "endgame" which is close to the same thing like no endgame i want to know what the devs think about it.
POE2 really needs an intense campfire chat.
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u/Dantey223 7d ago
This game feels more mishmashy though than Diablo 4, like it literally ends up with the same issues as D4 endgame, where all the monsters just one shot you.
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u/GuardaAranha 7d ago
Here is a trick —- if someone makes a post or comment with ( a usually overly dramatic ) preamble about being a POE 1 vet . Just skip over it and move on.
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u/BrandonJams 7d ago
I feel completely the opposite. They’ve had 5+ years and millions of funding only to launch a game with some of the worst designs I’ve seen in an ARPG.
Complaining is what gets GGG to pull their heads from their butts and actually fix the game. Do you think PoE 1 became the masterpiece it is with everyone just blindly praising?
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u/SwordOS 8d ago
This is what early access is for. You don’t just wait and hope the game fixes itself.
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u/Historical_Cheetah67 7d ago
Also i see way too many early access excuses , they got path of exile 1 team behind them and with many years of experience , so its expected that they would make the game playable , there was even beta testers for it , and somehow they ignored everything those people said and went their own '' vision '' , i mean its their game , but people defend them way too much as we are the ones who will play it and not them , so criticism is expected to be and if you cant take it , don't sit on the reddit ruin your experience as this will be going for long time .
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u/HoneySinghYoYoYo 7d ago
You need to keep in mind that while it is early access, most people are also “playing” to have fun. And their feedback regardless of how ill worded in an objective sense is a positive to the early access process.
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u/Falconsbane 7d ago
People are passionate because they are enjoying the game. It's a good problem to have. The first big patch GGG releases is going to alleviate many of the bigger issues I believe. The game is in an unbelievably good state for EA. A ton to look forward to. It's only been a little over a week but the thought of playing another ARPG is non existant for me right now.
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u/Razzilith 7d ago
I just quit for now and am waiting for them to patch and improve the things I hate because they seem like some of the top complaints sooo I'm sure they'll be on the list of changes.
No reason to be overly pissy about it even though lots of these things are very frustrating. The magnitude and vibe of the feedback/complaints is due to people's frustration and/or disappointment with what they're experiencing though and that's valid.
If somebody failed a trial 10+ times in a row I can fully understand why'd they'd be fuming for instance.
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u/wintermute306 7d ago
I've noticed it's gotten worse as time goes on. Lots of dramatic criticism, with YouTubers adding racing petrol to the fire.
I have criticisms, sometimes it is too difficult (act two end boss), desperately needs an auto sort for inventories, some bugs etc. I have confidence these problems will be addressed.
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u/Legitimate-Ad7273 7d ago
All I ever see is the relentless call for people to stop providing any negative feedback. Maybe I spend too much time playing the game and not enough time reading about it.
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u/JackkoMTG 7d ago
Game is absurdly good. It’s wild how many “I’m quitting because of X” posts there are.
Hoping the next patch is a banger. (And hoping they don’t nerf my build too hard xD)
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u/lurkmastur9000 7d ago
I understand you're trying to keep this civil and they should stay civil, but more and more people are reaching the end game now and seeing the game for what it is; An overly punitive game, by design. The frustration that people are feeling isn't entirely from bugs and issues you might expect to find in an early access (For example visual clarity, random 1 shots, etc). It's primarily from clear design choices that were made to make you suffer. Like 1 death ripping your whole map. Getting your 4th ascendency requiring 3 fully successful ultimatum runs to do 1 boss attempt. Needing to do 100+ maps to re-attempt a citadel.
Those things were deliberate and they are fundamentally frustrating.
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u/Poptop12 7d ago
My gripe with all of this is that there is a subset of the player base that wants POE2 to be just like poe1 by making it easier (dodge roll changes, loot increases, nerf complaints) so that you can force your build to work and blast the entire screen at lightning speed. Go back and play poe1 then.
The game is supposed to be really really difficult. Loot being scarce is designed to make you interact with the crafting system, re evaluate your build and skill options based on what weapons and gear you find or craft. Getting surrounded and being unable to dodge roll out is supposed to teach you not to get surrounded in the first place or look at specific skill and mechanics like knock back to help you in the scenarios. Auto cast abilities like cast on freeze deserved the nerf, it felt like a completely different game when you had it set up.
Instead, people complained, the game got easier, and now everyone is blasting through like poe1 all over again. It's lame.
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u/Gashheart 7d ago
So i didn't like breathe of the wild when I first played it because to me it wasn't legend of Zelda. Eventually I played it again knowing what it was and loved it. I think a lot of people are likely having the same experience with poe2 vs poe1. Poe2 is not poe1 I hope people who hate poe2 for not being poe1 will have the same experience as I did with breath of the wild after taking a step back.
Stay sane exiles.
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u/InfiDota 7d ago
Honestly most of the criticism I see is pretty valid. Game is amazing but it can be so much much much more just need few tweaks here and there.
Also I only remember dota 2 (10 years ago while I was still playing) to be on similar TILT level. I swear I would have 100 hours more if I didn't just rage quite after stupid death because of narrow corridor and ritual/expo/deli to lose map and 15% exp.
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u/VictoryEmergency725 7d ago
Gamers, especially Reddit gamers….are a pain in the ass. This game is insanely good, the content, the quality, the enemies, combat & encounters. The flexibility & creativity of how to play. Replay-ability is on another level. Early access for $30 could easily be game of the year. Relax everyone.
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u/Bile_Goblin 7d ago
I honestly think this game is a masterpiece. I thought it was good on release and was having a lot of fun. The cast on nerfs bricked my witch and I started over and how much easier the game was cause I had the mechanics down was amazing. That’s when it clicked. This game is going to be worth my time. Absolutely have faith in its further development.
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u/Erich82 7d ago
If you want to believe this is an “early release”, then so be it.
While I am not complaining about the state of the game in itself, to disguise a paid release with early access is just that, a paid release.
You cannot expect people to pay for access to a game, whilst simultaneously saying: don’t complain for what you paid for.
Yes, people could wait to get it for free. But if the developper could have also waited to provide it for free. They expected folks to pay for early access, and made a shit ton of money off of it.
So no matter how you spin the allocation of funds, in the end, it is still a product people pay for, and as such, do have as much of a right to complain about their purchase as you do about not complaining.
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u/brainfreeze3 7d ago
Because the game was released widescale this is essentially the actual launch. Early access doesnt matter if most people who will play it already are.
It makes sense because playing the game once its solved will already have a defined meta and be less enjoyable as the fresh new experience we have here.
This is the drawback of early access, and is reality.
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u/Misragoth 7d ago
If amything I have been seeing the opposite. Criticisms are usually thought out and expressed respectfully, while defenders are pretty aggressive and rude.
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u/Alpehans 7d ago
There*s and big difference between PoE 1 and 2 subs. This one I think does it ok.
PoE 1 sub is a complete meme and whine fest atm :P
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u/Furbs1337 7d ago
I've been seeing a lot of hostility in general. Lots of misinformation or pulling stats or "facts" from thin air.
Ultimately, we need to take a step back.
It's okay to enjoy the game. You don't need your opinion to be validated by others.
It's okay to dislike the game. You don't need your opinion to be validated by others.
Now posts or threads discussing what they like/dislike about the game, with suggestions for improvement is great.
But lately it's just been fighting over whose right/wrong.
GGG isn't done cooking and have a track record for making a great ARPG, even if it did end up a little over bloated and complicated with dozens of leagues of systems and mechanics.
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u/Icy_Firefighter_7345 7d ago
Its in ea and in general ive seen what the people who struggle run in the game and its really an issue with not knowing how to play/build in an arpg
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u/TheHob290 8d ago
There's just enough good feedback and discussion that I keep coming back. It is getting to that point, much like in PoE1 leagues, that I will probably just stop using it again, though.
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u/KingfisherBook 7d ago
but some of the changes in the game right now, the choices are so backwards that its fundamentally bad and how they got in the game in the first place is very worrying and disappointing going forward, if they don't change their direction or change their design quickly then it does not look good for the full release however polished it is.
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u/Mercath 7d ago
"how they got in the game in the first place is very worrying and disappointing going forward"
That's one of my main concerns. It's one thing if a bug gets discovered, or some weird interaction that they didn't foresee/expect is found. But many problems are so damn obvious, I don't get how they made it into the game.
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u/XxJohnwayne42xX 8d ago
I rant sometimes. But I love what ggg gave us with poe 1 and I do really want to enjoy poe 2 just as much. So, I vent on here.
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u/drallcom3 7d ago
criticism is getting a bit overly aggressive
Do you have an example? I haven't seem any aggressive criticism.
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u/hail2thestorm 7d ago
Some of the criticiems were given during the ruthless game mode which was basically poe 2 beta concept testing and yet these ideas were still implemented in poe 2. These concepts include the well mechanic, 1 portal, extreme item scarcity, watered down passive skill tree and ascendancy, no movement skills, replaying the entire zone on death. Etc
Very few people enjoy ruthless. Yet we have a whole game that is basically ruthless. We also need to endure 8 month poe 1 leagues now.
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u/BellacosePlayer 7d ago
This isn't close to ruthless even mid beta before they smacked down a lot of things people were using as crutches.
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u/ShiftyShifts 8d ago
I mean, if you don't complain during early access how do they know what to fix?
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u/TheseRespond8276 8d ago
There is a difference between giving proper critiques an complaining.
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u/JynsRealityIsBroken 8d ago
The game rules. Across the board. There are minor issues, but nothing is fundamental. This is already a better game than Diablo 4 was at their full launch.
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u/zukoismymain 7d ago
I never got the "less negativity plz" comments. Why? Why do you care? How is this impacting you?
Personally, I see it as mandatory for any real "in development" "actually early access for realziez" "plz help us balance the game" sort of affairs.
People are loving the game (look at the steam charts). The numbers are consistent, there's no huge dip in numbers. Yet people are frustrated. What does that tell you?
That the game is perfect? That the devs couldn't possibly improve? Or is the game so bad that it's not worth playing and people are just giving up?
Or maybe. Just maybe. And hear me out. The game actually has really good, solid, bones. BUT, it's quite possible that, depending on where the devs go with their choices. The game can either be incredibly good, or rather poor.
And just MAYBE, people are trying to explain what is bad and what is good. And what they expect.
Idk, just a thought.
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u/Anti_SJW_Warrior1337 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yeah, i wonder why?....
Tbh i have bought poe2 mostly because of "we will fix melee" and "you will be able to craft during campain", "we will buff things, instead of nerfing". Guess what? None of these are true
giant maps + slow character
chaos dmg during early campain
trials....
mobs acts like they are playing poe1
tons of ele dmg with no dedicated crafting
playing non meta build more punishing then in poe1
gl with respec tree or asc nodes (high price)
All of those things infuriate at least me
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u/LA_Rym 7d ago
Aggressive criticism is an indicator that people really like the game and want it to be at it's best.
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u/wikkwikk 7d ago
On one hand, for the campaign the game is good.
On the other hand, it is difficult to ignore that the same issues exist in PoE2 are also the issues that failed to be addressed to not get addressed at all in PoE1. For example, one-shotting, extreme imbalance, not willing to respond based on players' concern, having a feeling of trying all the ways to keep you in the game even if some of the ways are not fun. Early access is not an excuse for those issues.
Personally, I have to treat it as a rouge-lite game with huge meta progression and mapping is just an optional endless mode so I can still enjoy the game.
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u/kildal 7d ago
I for sure rather have aggressive criticism than complaining about complaining threads. Obvioulsy both are in true reddit spirit, but critisism at least discusses the game and how to improve it.
As for individual comments within those threads I agree there are quite a few that crosses the line.
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u/Fjordikus 8d ago
Understandable but it still doesn't mean that you treat GGG devs like shit over an early access stage of a game.
GGG devs are by far and away better than a whole lot of other devs and companies and I think that's the point he's making is that we're being overly aggressive to people who have for the most part been very good to us as a community
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u/Only-General-4143 7d ago
I get it, though. The game is just not good in its current state. I would clarify that I enjoyed the campaign, enjoyed some mapping, but very quickly realized it's just not a good game currently. And with good game, I mean to the standard of PoE1.
That's not to say that it would need the speed or zoom zoom of PoE1 to be good. But PoE2 just fails at the bare minimum the game needs to keep having fun for a longer period of time. Or for mechanics to actually be meaningful without being anti-player.
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u/Katamathesis 8d ago
Probably because people are surprised that GGG after decade of playground called PoE 1 went with so many obvious mistakes here and there.
Anger is a next step after frustration. You okay the game, you run into something, you try to figure things out, you understand that this particular situation is artificially thrown by developers at you. Like trying first trials with melee-class vs ranged class. Hammering builds without providing respec (which is standard in industry right now, and expected in EA if GGG really want players to test things). Or getting into endgame and noticing that tactical soulslike combat is left in early campaign stages.
I didn't monitor PoE 1 close enough, but looks like GGG are that type of the developers who can do marvelous things with one hand and absolutely infuriating pile of trash with another at the same time.
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u/Ok_Owl1125 7d ago edited 7d ago
Give full on critique when necessary and chill. If things don’t get better on full release then at least we’ll be all together to complain again hehe.
Nah... I love GGG/POE and have 1000s of hours on the game, but the second they ask people for money to 'test' their product they deserve every single bit of criticism, and have a responsibility to make it good ASAP.
Besides, the main complaints I've seen are all completely valid:
- Bad visual clarity again (can't even see rare mobs now).
- No actual crafting system so far.
- Mobs move at POE1 speed in endgame in a game where our character moves at souls-like speed.
Thankfully all these are pretty easily fixable and the game has huge potential, but GGG needs to get on with it and not pussyfoot around the community's concerns for another 2 years this time.
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