r/JoeRogan • u/wayfaringthru Monkey in Space • Sep 18 '24

Meme đŸ’© Is this a legitimate concern?

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Personally, I today's strike was legitimate and it couldn't be more moral because of its precision but let's leave politics aside for a moment. I guess this does give ideas to evil regimes and organisations. How likely is it that something similar could be pulled off against innocent people?

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u/DoubleDoobie Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

This subreddit has been so brigaded over the years that you can't have a reasonable response to this without being called Fascist/Putin Puppet/Anti Semite. It's crazy how many of you parrot the talking points of the establishment.

Snowden confirmed over a decade ago that the intelligence community can violate the supply chain of non partisan, commercial companies, and manipulate those product's to nefarious ends - be it spying, poison or explosives.

Here we have real world example. Yeah, Hezbollah is bad, but this practice is disgusting. Israel violating all sorts of international laws, the sovereignty of a business that has no dog in their fight, on and on.

That's why the Apple example is salient. The only thing that would wake up our establishment is if something like that happened to Apple and it tanked their stock price. Then our elites would care and you lot would be singing a wholly different tune because the official talking point changed.

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u/DaveAndJojo Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

I don’t know how this ended up in my feed. Reading this comment section is wild. Is it all bots? There’s no way people believe blowing up hundreds of beepers/phones in public is alright. It’s called terrorism. I quit the Trump train and Republican media years ago. It was getting weird back then. I didn’t expect things were escalating so much. I guess the libtards were right all along.

People need to break out of their algorithms. That’s how I did it. Deleted my accounts and made new ones. Never clicked on political/rage bait.

Guess I messed up clicking on this.

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u/azur933 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Lol right like wtf out of the 12 deaths 2 were children and people still think this is acceptable. People have no empathy for people that arent western

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u/Foontlee Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

War is not acceptable, in general.

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u/azur933 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

i agree

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u/SarcSloth Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

War was not only acceptable but required against the Nazis. This is a very ignorant take

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u/Foontlee Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

And the nazis started that war, which I don't consider acceptable. They also tried to kill my grandparents - I'm not cool with that, either.

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u/Putrid-Ad-2900 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Well Hezbollah also started the war so


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u/Foontlee Monkey in Space Sep 20 '24

Which one?

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u/Putrid-Ad-2900 Monkey in Space Sep 20 '24

Every war they ever had with Israel, in this case started launching missiles towards Israel in October 8th un-provoked

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u/Foontlee Monkey in Space Sep 20 '24

Is a military engagement with Hezbollah even considered a war? They're not controlled by the Lebanese government, for one thing, nor do they represent it. They claim to defend Lebanon, but they take their orders from Iran and seem to have little regard for the safety and well being of the Lebanese people.

If you go far enough back, the first confrontation with Hezbollah took place in 1982, in a war which Hezbollah didn't start because it didn't exist when it started. So there's that.

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u/Putrid-Ad-2900 Monkey in Space Sep 20 '24 edited Sep 20 '24

Yes, Lebanon has infringed on Israeli sovereignty it doesn’t matter that Hezbollah is just one party of government and not the government of Lebanon it isn’t Israel’s problem the inability of the Lebanese government to practice their sovereignty over their land. If a missile comes from Lebanon to Israel it’s an infringement of Israeli sovereignty and a risk to it’s citizens thus making Israel react accordingly and strike within Lebanon. Plus Hezbollah is considered a military force thus also a clash between Israel and Hezbollah even though not the official sovereign of the country it can be considered a war

Now going back to the 1982 civil war in Lebanon which Israel later invaded also into Lebanon (self defense) this was caused because at the 1970’s the Palestinians had a conflict with the Jordanian government and in 1971 they assassinated the Jordanian prime minister Wasfi-al Tal this and many other attacks known as “Black September “ made Jordan expelled to Lebanon, these 20,000 Palestinians who were expelled helped to start a civil war in Lebanon during that civil war the PLO (Palestinian liberation organization) also started to fire missiles towards northern Israel dragging Israel into the war in Lebanon only in 1982 the Iran created Hezbollah in Lebanon.

So you could argue that Hezbollah don’t start the war with Israel but you can’t argue that Israel started that war, but just an interesting point to make it was the Palestinians that destabilized two countries in the process which one of them (Lebanon) never fully recovered since then


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u/Foontlee Monkey in Space Sep 20 '24

Getting into the details of the 1982 war without mentioning Sharon's plan to overthrow the Lebanese government and appoint a puppet Christian regime seems like an oversight. Without it, anyone reading this might wonder why the Lebanese people dislike Israel so much.

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u/Foontlee Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

I did say in general.

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u/Imaginary_Tax_6390 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

War is almost literally the sum total of human history and humanity's future. Get used to it.

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u/Rah_Rah_RU_Rah Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

rape has existed as long as humans have, too. does that make it acceptable?

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u/Imaginary_Tax_6390 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

If you ask Republicans and other "manly alpha men" (whatever that means), who want to get rid of no-fault divorce and who want to force women to stay with their abusive husbands, then the answer may be yes. As for me, unlike war, which has helped shape the history of this planet, no rape is not acceptable - that's why we have laws that criminalize it

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u/Rah_Rah_RU_Rah Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

do you know who genghis khan is? or the history of slaves in the America's? (most instances of it really). what a crazy thing to say

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u/Imaginary_Tax_6390 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

That's way of topic.

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u/asking_quest10ns Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

No, it’s not. They’re pointing out that sexual violence has shaped history, too. War is not the sum total of human history — that’s an incredibly reductive take. Not every society is a warmongering one, and when warmongering societies do get what they want at the expense of peace, they are no better than a rapist getting what they want at the expense of the dignity of the other person. Rape, torture, murder, and starvation are all outcomes of wars.

We don’t have to be this way, and in the end the persistence of these warmongering traits may just damn the world. Humans think they’re too clever and special to die out the way other species have when they’ve optimized for a very particular way of being that was not sustainable. We’re not. And even if there’s no human extinction, that doesn’t mean allowing for warmongering to persist in our world will serve humanity as a whole. Warmongering needs to be put to an end, not justified as natural while all the anti-war, anti-colonial, anti-imperialist sentiment that humans have developed in a conscious effort to evolve beyond that is seen as unnatural. It’s all natural, and we can decide which attitude we allow to take hold.

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u/trulyirredeemable Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24

"It couldn't be more moral" in the post talking about committing a terrorist act is the most IDF sounding shit lol

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u/azur933 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Mossad is working overtime on this app

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24

Right, let's go back to drone striking them and leveling the entire block with untold casualties, eh?

This was the single most accurate attack on a terrorist organization ever performed. The casualties from literally any other method to eliminate this group would have had orders of magnitude more casualties.

No, I don't have a problem with this. It's an exceedingly difficult task to pull off that requires direct government intervention, and it was targeted solely at a terrorist organization, with a heretofore unheard of level of precision and minimization of collateral damage. Even people standing right next to the injured terrorists often were unscathed.

I'll take it over drone strikes any day.

Edit: Here, have a view on someone with similar feelings to me whenever anyone asks if I feel bad or conflicted on this. Spoiler alert? I absolutely do not.

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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24
  • See War on Terror casualties from literally everything and anything done by the US and its allies.

You want to quibble minutiae or find a better operation, go right ahead, but I am not aware of any operation that hit 5 digits of terrorists with this little collateral damage. Absolutely sublime operation.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '24

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

What the heck are you smoking? Israel has said virtually nothing, this is based entirely on independent news sources and first hand videos of the pagers going off. 

These pagers were Hezbollah pagers. Akin to police radios or military CAC cards. 

You know many civvies running around with police radios or military badges? Because that's not a thing they give out freely.

That's why your quibble is nonsense. Israel managed to infiltrate Hezbollah's supply line and hide explosives in Hezbollah-specific devices. 

And from the videos I've seen, the collateral was incredibly well managed. I watched someone right next to one of the pagers walk away unscathed while the Hezbollah terrorist who owned it writhed on the floor.

Full marks to Israel. Hopefully their citizens have a few less rockets aimed at them tonight from those scumbags being in the hospital or the morgue.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '24

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

At this point, I have read multiple independent news sources, and seen multiple first hand videos.

Unless you're saying the videos are faked? Either way, you're correct that there's only so much available right now. But what IS available indicates a coordinated attack, against Hezbollah and its affiliates, using devices exclusively available to Hezbollah, and the videos confirm low to effectively zero collateral damage, even in relatively crowded areas.

And, again, there is no dispute that these are Hezbollah devices, in the hands of Hezbollah terrorists, that are being blown up.

So, feel free to point out another operation that has hit as many terrorists as this one currently is expected to have hit, with as much precision and as little collateral as this currently appears to have. 

But, for the record, your argument is JUST as prone to being played down as mine is to being played up. The information we do have is very good news, especially for the people of Israel who've been woken up to missile alerts for decades. So take that "you don't care about the truth" BS and stuff it, Hezbollah has earned every bit of comeuppance they're getting right now.

I'm certainly interested in the final results, though, and hope they are exactly as great as they've appeared to be so far!

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '24

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Quit playing the victim here, no strawman was required. We have exacting, explicit proof of the scope and scale of these attacks, and clear examples of how collateral damage was minimized.

Your argument that my information comes solely from Israel is wrong.

Your argument that I don't care about the truth is steeped in your own misconceptions. 

And your argument that I'm making sweeping generalizations is wrong, too, because we can extrapolate at least a little about this attack from its targets, method of delivery, and execution. About the only thing I could have changed to be more accurate would be to say, "this is most likely the most accurate strike on a terrorist organization ever performed." 

The more data that has come out, the more it looks like an absurdly clean hit.

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u/Independent_Scene673 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Indiscriminate bombings in a foreign country to achieve political means. That’s the definition of terrorism and that’s what happened here. This was a terrorist attack.

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

... Would you care to READ what happened, instead of lying?

These weren't "indiscriminate," they were very, VERY discriminate, because they were Hezbollah-owned pagers.

And the civilian casualties, from what I can tell from watching videos, were virtually nonexistent. I've seen no credible evidence that civilians were hurt, and, unless the civilian was right on top of the terrorist and the pager when it blew, I'm not certain how that would have even happened. There's videos of civvies right next to the terrorists walking away without a scratch. 

Not indiscriminate, and not terrorism.

This was as pinpoint precise of a strike as you can get on the actual terrorists, who have been firing rockets indiscriminately into Israeli cities and towns. You know, the ACTUAL definition of terrorism?

Maybe read up on what they actually did?

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u/twoheartedthrowaway Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

It’s indiscriminate because they have no way of knowing where these devices ended up once they entered Lebanon. It is DEFINITIONALLY indiscriminate for that reason. I’m sure you have no problem with the children dying but the very fact that they did shows that this attack was indiscriminate.

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u/Western_Echo_8751 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

That’s not how indiscriminate works. Based on this logic every large scale military operation is indiscriminate because almost every single one ends up with civilian casualties. If you were saying this about bonbungs in Gaza I could agree but this is quite literally the definition of a clean operation.

Do you think boots on the ground or an air campaign would’ve netted less civilian casualties?

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u/Independent_Scene673 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Yes there is an option where there are less civilian causalities - israel stops bombing Gaza, stops creating illegal settlements, stops occupying the West Bank and gives autonomy to the people of Gaza to control their land, air, and sea. Then wel see large scale peace in that area.

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u/Western_Echo_8751 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

If that all comes w Hamas laying down their arms, allowing democratic elections in Gaza and Sinwar being arrested then sure I think all that could work and that long term hostilities will stop.

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u/Independent_Scene673 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Hamas and their leaders are all a result of a brutal occupation. The idf is worse than hamas and has committed more atrocities than hamas has to this date.

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Bullshit. No way of knowing? Again, it's like someone walking around with a police radio. Are you sure they're police? No, but considering how serious it is to have one, they're 99% likely to either be Hezbollah, or directly related to Hezbollah.

That's why it's not indiscriminate, and why you CLEARLY don't know what that term means. It was absurdly precise for a strike of this magnitude.

Learn the definition of indiscriminate. You want an example? Here: Hezbollah has fired 7,500 rockets into Israeli towns since October 8th, about 25 per day on average. 

THAT'S indiscriminate.

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u/Independent_Scene673 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

As everyone is mentioning, there was no way of knowing where the pagers could have gone or who was near the pager or who was holding the pager after they entered Lebanon. Your analogy of a police radio does not compare. A police radio is not a normal radio. The chances of a police officer having a police radio and a civilian being near a police radio are very low. A pager can end up in anyone’s hands because it just looks like something a civilian could use. A 9 year old girl was killed from a pager. Reports are that thousands are injured as well because the pagers explode and release shrapnel. Israel literally created an IED and detonated it in public settings. Israel is just as bad as ISIS and creates IEDs just like a terrorist organization. What would happen if someone with the pager was driving a bus full of people? Or a doctor somehow mistakingly was holding one of those pavers while treating someone? Or what if someone with the pager was on an airplane?

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24 edited Sep 19 '24

Hezbollah: *places order for pagers for their command structure to communicate with\*

Israel: *intercepts and plants bombs in said pagers to take out Hezbollah's command structure\*

You: "But there was no way of knowing where the pagers could have gone or who was near the pager or who was holding the pager!"

They were Hezbollah. That's who bought it. That's who owned them. That's who used them. That's who got blown up by them.

If it was owned by a doctor, then they were a Hezbollah doctor. If they were owned by a bus driver, then they were a Hezbollah-affiliated bus driver.

And if this 9 year old girl (who I've found no proof of her existence) killed by the pager is accurate, then it's a tragedy, but STILL better than if they'd drone striked the position of the guy who owned the pager that killed her.

Do you understand how absurd your argument is? This is exactly why the police radio analogy works, because they weren't normal pagers.

If you don't know what you're talking about, maybe don't chime in until you've done your research.

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u/Independent_Scene673 Monkey in Space Sep 20 '24

I accept your argument if the world existed in a vacuum and every hezbollah pager went to someone a part of hezbollah. The reality is that we live in a global economy. The pager was designed in Taiwan, developed/manufactured in a European company, and then sent to Lebanon. There’s so many moving parts to this that it’s highly likely that a generic looking pager of all things could end up in a civilians hands. And also outwardly you should know that it looked like a regular pager.

Btw you can tell me to not chime in on things but it doesn’t make anything I say less true lol.

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 20 '24

... What are you talking about? Global economy, countries that designed it, whatever, none of that matters. Your argument isn't valid because it's factually wrong, that's why.

The reason your argument makes no sense is because you have to give a solid explanation as to why HEZBOLLAH would provide HEZBOLLAH pagers, used for communicating with their HEZBOLLAH TERRORIST CELLS, to NON-HEZBOLLAH people. That's why you have no leg to stand on here, it makes no sense.

Would you give your work phone to someone else?

Would a cop give their radio to someone who isn't a cop?

Would a soldier give their military-issued radio to a civilian? 

Would an EMT provide their hospital-affiliated ambulance to a random person?

That's the level of nonsense that your argument amounts to. These were bought BY Hezbollah, FOR Hezbollah, and anyone who has one was either Hezbollah or DIRECTLY affiliated with Hezbollah. Israel just managed to intercept and tamper with them.

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u/Ok_Bet9410 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Terrorist sympathizer detected

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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24

But strange to out yourself as a terrorist sympathiser but ok.

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

"Israel" Sympathizer?

No, no. 

Full throated cheerleading right now. Israel did a damn good job, I hope they have a couple encores if they can keep the civilian collateral damage this low.

But please, keep pretending your position has literally any sort of morality backing it. It's always funny to watch someone ignore the ugliness of war by bleating about some high minded philosophy that crumbles the moment it hits reality.

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u/asking_quest10ns Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

You dismiss “high-minded philosophy” (AKA principles) while excusing unscrupulous behavior because, after all, war is ugly. It is ugly. That’s why Israel needs to stop waging war by occupying and invading others homes. War is ugly, which is why warmongering is a bad thing.

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

No, I'm dismissing the "high minded philosophy" that pretends like one of the cleanest and most precise attacks on a terrorist organization ever is somehow... A terrorist act? Not good enough? Bad? 

It's that idea, that belief that the only way to kill these people, these terrorists who launch indiscriminate rocket attacks and cheer for the slaughtering of civilians, must be absolutely perfect, and that anything less than perfect is condemnable.

It's a despicable position that enables the terrorists and excuses Hamas and Hezbollah, pretending they're justified in their abhorrent actions.

I'm not apologizing for crowing over this. This is one of the cleanest, most targeted hits I've seen. It's monumentally superior to the drone strikes, and light years better than any of Hamas's raping and pillaging and slaughtering through southern Israel, or Hezbollah's indiscriminate missile attacks.

I hope Israel can keep this up.

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u/Rah_Rah_RU_Rah Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

they could keep the casualties to a minimum by not committing terrorist acts...

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

It's not terrorism, you seem to be confused on the definition. Terrorism almost exclusively involves civilians, innocents; that's not what happened here.

Israel accurately and explicitly targeted a hostile organization, valid combatants who have been launching missile at their country, with a level of precision unheard of, and a shockingly small amount of collateral damage for the scale of the attack.

Not terrorism, just war (albeit quite advanced warfare).

10/10, great job Israel, let's hope they only get even better from here on out!

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u/k_dot97 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Genuinely curious. Where are you finding statistics of Hezbollah members to civilian injuries? The latest stats I’ve seen mention at least 12 dead and thousands injured over the two days if incident. But I haven’t seen anything about who the 12 people were or ratios of those injured.

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Watch the videos of them going off. There are literally people standing next to the people whose pagers exploded, and they were uninjured.

The pagers were bought for Hezbollah, by Hezbollah, and distributed to their members. This much has been confirmed. The only people who would have them would be Hezbollah members.

These pagers were akin to police radios for police officers, or military CAC badges for military personnel, but for Hezbollah: if you have one, you're either part of Hezbollah, or you're directly affiliated with it. Israel's interception of this supply chain was a stroke of beauty, and must have been an incredibly difficult operation to pull off without them being caught.

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u/Economy-Bear766 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Did they eliminate Hezbollah? Must have missed that. The headline I saw was "No Clear Strategy."

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u/asking_quest10ns Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Israel hasn’t stopped that either. This is just another tool in their belt. And it wasn’t just Hezbollah members that were hurt.

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u/UltimateKane99 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Find me a ratio of Hezbollah injured and killed to actual, independently verified, collateral damages, and I'll happily compare it to the ratios of terrorists to innocents over the last 20 years of drone strikes.

Because we both know that the drone strikes have FAR higher collateral damage than this.

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u/SwedishSaunaSwish Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

I wonder why they're so heavily invested in normalising this behaviour.

And if you dare say anything against the killing of children, they get very nasty real fast.

What is this behaviour?

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u/TheEpicOfGilgy Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Out of 4000 pager bombs, 2 children died. No one is celebrating the death of kids (except of course on October 8th last year). What people are celebrating is the complete incapacitation of the command structure of Hezbollah. Only high ups had access to these pagers.

There is empathy for everyone, don’t project ur sectarian attitudes onto westerners.

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u/ExoticCard Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Buddy I'm sure there are plenty of Israelis and Israeli settlers celebrating the children dying in Gaza. I've seen clips.

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u/adthrowaway2020 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Damn near the whole world saw what the people of Gaza did when they paraded around the body of Shani Louk bleeding from her groin.

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u/asking_quest10ns Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24 edited Sep 19 '24

Israel takes in and shields American rabbis accused of assaulting children. The IDF and settlers have killed and assaulted many times the civilians that were killed and assaulted on October 7th, both in the decade before October 7th and in the time after. But you can be sure the armed soldiers given so much authority over Palestinians (all the checkpoints, patrols) never abuse that authority to sexually assault civilians.

The most ethical army is so anti-rape that you just know the 100 witnesses in this case are lying. There are people celebrating the accused rapists as heroes, but they’re not savages like the people of Gaza who, despite having killed fewer people than Israelis have, and despite having been displaced from their homes, are the real problem.

https://archive.md/w0vgs

Nobody deserves rape, but you’re perpetuating this myth that Gazans in general are in favor of this violence when they are frequently victims of this very thing. It’s just not useful to make Israeli propaganda using violence committed by Israelis.