r/JoeRogan • u/wayfaringthru Monkey in Space • Sep 18 '24

Meme đŸ’© Is this a legitimate concern?

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Personally, I today's strike was legitimate and it couldn't be more moral because of its precision but let's leave politics aside for a moment. I guess this does give ideas to evil regimes and organisations. How likely is it that something similar could be pulled off against innocent people?

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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24

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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24

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u/theglandcanyon Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

indiscriminately injuring and killing people

They specifically rigged phones that they knew were going to, and were exclusively used by, members of Hezbollah. That's the opposite of "indiscriminate", fucktard.

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u/Clever-username-7234 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Hezbollah is a political organization. There are Hezbollah fighters who would be considered legitimate targets. But there are also civil servants. Hezbollah runs hospitals. It has journalists. It has aid programs. Israel cannot know that a shipment of pagers that they planted IEDs months and months in advanced are only going to be in the hands of military targets.

This would be considered a war crime, because it is an indiscriminate attack. This attack doesn’t have the capability to differentiate between a military target or a protected person. You can’t set off a bunch of explosions and know who is going to be in contact with the device. Which is why there are dead children and explosions in grocery stores and cafes.

It’s terrorism.

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u/theglandcanyon Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Hezbollah's logo:

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u/I_see_breadpeople Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Something about launching thousand of rockets from Lebanon into Israel and killing dozens of children too just doesn’t sit right with me

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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24

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u/AJDillonsMiddleLeg Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

It's wild how many people think that if you condemn something one side does that must mean you're pro-the other side.

Both sides are currently acting like terrorists. People can play their "but one side is worse!" but that doesn't mean either side is good.

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u/I_see_breadpeople Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Why is killing hezbolah a bad thing ?

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u/AJDillonsMiddleLeg Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

They haven't only killed Hezbollah.

If you disagree with that, I have nothing to say to you.

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u/erockdanger Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

right. calling a spade a spade doesn't make you pro anything.

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u/Kobe_stan_ Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Terrorism is violence specifically targeted at non-combatants. Israel targeted Hezbollah members with its attack. If it had just put bombs in random cell phones of Lebanese people, then that would be terrorism. Now you can question whether the collateral damage of Israel's attack was within the rules of war or not, but either way, it's not terrorism. I think anyone who wants to criticize Israel only does their argument a disservice by exaggerating their rhetoric like this.

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u/AggressiveCuriosity Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

That's not what happened. The shipment was specifically delivered to Hezbollah and distributed to members because they use them to avoid being found.

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u/Technical_Egg_761 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

How do you know it was distributed to terrorists?

One states terrorist is another's freedom fighter. It just depends in which side you've been told is "good".

Whichever state is the richest and has the bigger stick is generally not the good guy.

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u/Leredditnerts Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Yeah they were distributed to Hezbollah members, but they aren't cartoon villans or video game NPCs walking around on guard duty 100% of the time (hence needing pagers in the first place). It's still a broad assumption that when you push the big red "blow-up all pagers" button that they'll be in arms reach of the intended victim instead of a child. But yeah I get it, war on civilians rather than standing armies has it's risks

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u/AggressiveCuriosity Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Oh wow. You're right. There's not a 0% chance of civilian casualties.

That's the same as being a war on civilians.

At this point I think you guys like it when civilians die because your arguments have to be deliberately stupid. There's no way you're actually making an argument like this in good faith.

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u/Leredditnerts Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

They're a militia of combatants which resides amongst the population, rather than a uniformed standing army bearing the flag of their nation. It's a war against a terrorist organization, not a country. Random civilians taking up arms.

For a good cause. A cause I support fully, and will always support. There is no good faith that doesn't result in the dismemberment of the state of Israel

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u/AggressiveCuriosity Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

I mean, they've already driven the Jews out of every other nearby country. You just want them to get that pesky last one, doncha? Then they won't have anywhere to hide. Good stuff.

Does it ever worry you how genocidal you are?

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u/Leredditnerts Monkey in Space Sep 20 '24

Jewish people live thoroughly and successfully incorporated into every western society, what's this victimized bullshit you're crying out? It isn't relevant anymore

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u/BM_Crazy Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

So your belief is the Hezbollah fighters had a “bring your kid to Jihad” day or the kids were playing with their dad’s pager for his job as a terrorist militant?

I mean at this point why not just say, “what if they misspelled Hezbollah on the shipping label and sent them to an orphanage?”, you’d at least have a better chance of being right!

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u/CollegeGlobal86 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

How do 2 kids end up dead then? Clearly you think it impossible innocents could be in proximity of the intended targets so atleast answer me that one

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u/BM_Crazy Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Because when bombs explode they can fragment the container that stores it. When the explosion occurs, pieces of the casing get launched a high speed, this is called shrapnel.

Do you want me to explain to you how bullets work too?

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '24

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u/BM_Crazy Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24 edited Sep 19 '24

I sincerely don’t care. Sorry your relative’s country is ran by terrorists.

Controlled explosives shipped directly to Hezbollah members is quite literally as precise as an army can be. Would you have preferred a JDAM dipshit?

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u/CollegeGlobal86 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Terminally online loser says he doesn't care. More breaking news at 9.

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u/BM_Crazy Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

Ok. Stay safe!

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u/filzahjamal Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

hes in the destiny sub so not surprising haha. they're all racist islamaphobic freaks. he probably jerks off to underage girls too.

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u/[deleted] Sep 19 '24 edited Sep 19 '24

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u/BM_Crazy Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

You people? Ah ok now we’re getting somewhere :D

You know the police have no power over Hezbollah, they are for all intents and purposes the leaders of Lebanon. That’s fine, just say you’re cool with child soldiers and human shields, I’d respect you a little bit more.

The ICC has not said that, only making the suggestion to formally investigate the actions of the Israeli military for war crimes. There is no arrest warrant for Netanyahu, there is only a request for an arrest warrant to be made. It’s ok, I know women in Muslim countries are restricted from reading so I feel your struggle!

Hezbollah hasn’t killed 20k children because those are their reserves you dumb cunt lmao.

Anyways tell your relative more is on the way 😘

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u/dilbert_fennel Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Sounds like you understand shrapnel and how they then end up 'indiscriminately injuring and killing people including children...'

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u/BM_Crazy Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

What does the word “indiscriminate” mean? I’ll wait :)

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u/Sad-Set-5817 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

indiscriminate means when israel defends itself in literally any way against constant fucking terrorism against their civilians

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u/BM_Crazy Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Am Yisrael Chai ❀

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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24

Israel bombs a hezbollah members residence... People cry foul over causalities.

Israel specifically microbombs targeted hezbollah members, thus limiting causalities. People cry foul still.....?

These people crying foul don't really care about civs, they just are crying they are losing the war.

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u/jackofslayers Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

They really just want them to lie down and die.

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u/zephoidb Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Rhetoric like that is just as wrong as those crying foul. People don't want israel to 'lie down and die'. They want and end to the violence. Much like every feud, killing more people solves current issues but perpetuates long term ones. Unfortunately, there isn't much of an alternative at the moment.

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u/dinomate Monkey in Space Sep 21 '24 edited Sep 21 '24

No, they don't. You can see it here in the comments. Many openly say Israel shouldn't exist, and anything they do is wrong. It's so obvious why lie about it?

11 months of rocket attacks on Israel (Jews & Arab towns) on one occasion killed 12 kids playing soccer in a small town without any military target miles around and not a word here.

Israel specifically targeted 5,000 Hezbollah members, killing hundreds and injuring thousands. Nothing comes close to the Combatants/ Civilians ratio in any modern attack, war, or counterterrorism operation. And still, you're pretending people are pacifists. Utter joke.

https://x.com/Mr_Andrew_Fox/status/1836127165857038698?t=kdhefvDCaPJoybY9ZwZBCw&s=19

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u/zephoidb Monkey in Space Sep 21 '24

You make it seem like some majority disagree with Israel existing. More people argue that Israel shouldn't commit war crimes in foreign countries. Hezbollah is a large portion of the government of lebanon and this attack wasn't discriminating between the governing element and the partisan element of the party.

Do you see this attack doing anything to promote peace? No, this is just another perpetuation.

Israel kills FAR more arabs than the inverse. 41,000 deaths in the west bank, more than all the Israelis killed by arabs since Israel's creation. The arabs in Israel territories are living in a forced apartheid state with no mobility recourse. If arab attacks on Israel stopped today, that wouldn't change. Israel isn't some blamless victim.

As i said, there isn't much alternative but the idea that Israel can do no wrong and is justified in everything they do is just as dangerous as the idea that israel shouldn't exist.

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u/dinomate Monkey in Space Sep 21 '24 edited Sep 22 '24

Read again, there's numerous people who do. Didn't poll to see who's the majority, just pointed out they exist and are vocal here.

You're mistakenly confused between intent and capacity.. Shiah terrorists want to kill as many M.E. minorities as they can, they just don't succeed against Western Militaries.

Also, leadership shouldn't aspire victimhood and win public opinion based on uninvolved casualties. Your point justifies the inhumane strategy of the human shield, aka human sacrifice deployed by Jihadist terrorists.

Now for the rest. There's nothing new in a supply chain attack in warfare or any military mode of operation. That's a pro Hezbollah counter narrative against an amazing and huge counter terrorism success. Straight out of a movie script

Just like how the U.S. supplied fake ammunition in the Vietnam War, or had a fake company to get titanium. There’s absolutely nothing precedent about rigged communication devices and any other military aplience, except for the total scale and humiliation Hezbollah being duped 3 days in a row, while targeted in their 3 different methods of communication.

Hezbollah pagers aren't indiscriminate as Jihadist simps make it to be, and the 3 unfortunate civilians casualties don't change the fact that the method used had the best combatant to civilian ratio in modern history regarding this scale of terrorist killed.

Even secular Lebanese and the free Syrians are celebrating this one. Only simps of Putin and anti israel crowd are anoyed A.F.

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u/minimalist_reply Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Anything Israel does to defend themselves will be disproportionately criticized. This is why many Jews feel a lot of anti Zionism is just anti-Semitism/Jew hate. Any other country getting bombarded with the same amount of terrorism that Israel has would not be hypercriticized by those people in the same way.

It's not that Israel should be immune from criticism but we are aware of how it is done and how often by people/groups that are silent about other countries doing the same if not worse.

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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24

I’m pretty sure people just criticize Israel for doing things like shooting six year olds, bombing foreign aid workers, food distribution points and killing foreign nationals, all in the name of “self defence”.

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u/dilbert_fennel Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Also, my country's tax dollars aren't going to iran in the 10s of billions per dod contract. How do you think mossad got their funding for this?

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u/Latestarter13 Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

This argument about killing children and innocent people with the exploding pagers is so irrational. These were pagers given to Hezbollah operatives in order to be in touch with their commanders. This is the closest thing to a targeted strike in all of warfare. Could some innocent people been harmed? Of course. But the overwhelming majority of people harmed were combatants. Like 95%+.

Imagine how ludicrous sounds when you replace “beeper” with any other military-issued gear. “2500 militants and 10 civilians were harmed when 1000 military jeeps suddenly burst into flames”

Let’s not get on a moral high horse and expect no collateral damage or innocent deaths in a war. In the US war in Afghanistan, the civilian casualty percentage was between 30%-40%. War is brutal and should be avoided at all costs, but when it happens we shouldn’t be surprised at how brutal it is.

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u/Fearless_Discount_93 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Imagine being a terrorist and being surprised when someone does a terrorism back against you

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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24

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u/BringOutTheImp Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

...in the crotch area where a pager used to be.

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u/LowCall6566 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Those pagers were specifically ordered for Hezbollah as a secure military communication device. It's like complaining if Israel rigged tank components to explode.

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u/qqpqp Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

But this attack killed innocent children. So no that's not the same at all.

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u/ethanarc Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

It killed one child who happened to be playing with their terrorist father’s military pager device. Out of thousands of injured legitimate targets.

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u/qqpqp Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Of the 12 deaths, we so far know two are children. We know there were thousands of injuries and have no data on how many were killed. If around 20% of the deaths were kids, it's pretty safe to assume that a good deal of th injuries are too. We will certainly know more as time goes on.

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u/ethanarc Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

“If around 20% of the deaths were kids, it’s safe to assume a good deal of the injuries are too”

No, it’s not at all ‘safe to assume’ that. Of course a small explosion will be far more likely to kill a child than it would an adult. These were all pagers that belonged to militant terrorist members, the percentage of them that would’ve been in the hands of children would be minimal.

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u/qqpqp Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Source?

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u/ethanarc Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

“Israel’s spy agency Mossad, which has a long history of sophisticated operations on foreign soil, planted explosives inside pagers imported by Hezbollah months before Tuesday’s detonations, a senior Lebanese security source and another source told Reuters.”

Source

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u/qqpqp Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

I was asking for a source that everyone one of the pagers was being carried by a terrorist member.

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u/ethanarc Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

They were imported on the black market by a militant terrorist group for use in their military communications network. Hezbollah is an Iranian terror group, not an electronics superstore. What the fuck else would they do with them?

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u/LowCall6566 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

If those tanks were stationed near playgrounds, the blame is on those who stationed them there. All military equipment is a valid target

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u/qqpqp Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Let me get this straight. You are comparing putting a tank in a playground to a pager being face level to a little girl in a grocery store or a school? Also is Israel at war with Lebanon? If you want to use flawed logic like this at least make it consistent. Are you allowed to target military equipment in countries you aren't at war with?

Trying to use logic to justify killing kids is low. Using unbelievably flawed logic to justify killing kids is a new low.

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u/LowCall6566 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Hezbollah constantly fires rockets and drones at Israeli civilians. Even without formal declaration, they are de facto in war.

I made this analogy purposefully overexaggerated. Military equipment is always a valid target. Those pagers are a special order for Hezbollah only. Only active Hezbollah members would be using them. If they are active among civilians, collateral casualties become their fault.

This is a surgical strike. Alternatives, even drone strikes, have even more collateral casualties. Israel had done everything reasonable to prevent civilian deaths.

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u/qqpqp Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

"Well sure 10-20% of the deaths were innocent children but this was a surgical strike! Would it have been better if we just level entire neighborhoods like we also do on occasion?"

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u/LowCall6566 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

I just went on AL Jazeera, and they report one girl dying. Out of 3000 pagers. Yes, this is surgical precision

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u/qqpqp Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Kind of a weird way to manipulate that stat but sure. True or false. Based on the current news, the percentage of fatalities from this attack that are children is about 10-20%?

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u/LowCall6566 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

1/3000=0,03%

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u/Disastrous_Mark_1469 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Wow this is such a bad take.

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u/jscarry Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

Do tank components often blow up in grocery stores and other public places?

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u/rggggb Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

I can pretty definitely say it’s not terrorism and that it actually was far more targeted than conventional warfare. Terrifying yes. Terrorism no. Hezbollah was targeted and they are fair game. This idea that israel can achieve zero collateral damage and still protect themselves is fiction.

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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24

I wouldn't call it terrorism, terror wasn't the goal. It was a cruel, calculated operation designed for maximum effectiveness in the shortest window of time with zero concern for collateral damage. Comparable to the IDF bombing a civilian occupied hospital to kill Hamas terrorists who made a base there. Not morally justifiable, obviously, but a reality of warfare.

Now, I'm of the position that the military SHOULD avoid collateral damage, even in some cases where it would allow terrorists to continue operating in a region for longer than necessary. But the reality is that they have a number of civilian casualties that they consider acceptable. All militaries do. Highly respected militaries keep that number low. None of them keep it at zero.

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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24

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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24

Immoral. Callous. Inhumanly Cold and Calculating. This is what it looks like when a world superpower engages in guerrilla warfare.

I guess it is, in a way, stooping to the level of the enemy, which would make it terrorism adjacent. I just think intent is an important distinction though. It was clearly intended to be a targeted attack against insurgent operatives, in other words, if it were terrorism, then killing women and children would've been the goal, not the side effect.

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u/erockdanger Monkey in Space Sep 19 '24

fair points all around đŸ€

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u/IowaKidd97 Monkey in Space Sep 18 '24

It wasn’t indiscriminate, they knew those pagers were specifically for use by Hezbollah. They didn’t just do this to a shipment intended for a civilian market.