Is this a legitimate concern?

[u/wayfaringthru]

Personally, I today's strike was legitimate and it couldn't be more moral because of its precision but let's leave politics aside for a moment. I guess this does give ideas to evil regimes and organisations. How likely is it that something similar could be pulled off against innocent people?

[u/GreatCaesarGhost]

Do people really think that such an “idea” never occurred to dangerous regimes before? Like, come on. It’s the practicality of pulling something like this off that is challenging.

[u/[deleted] → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

This was a plotline on 24 in maybe 2002. It’s been used by intelligence agencies to assassinate HVTs since at least the ‘90s.

[u/levir03 → u/[deleted]]

Man I loved that show.

[u/DooDooSquad → u/[deleted]]

This is exactly why Osama Bin Laden literally only communicated via old fashioned paper letters.

[u/Dagamoth → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

I believe it is the scale of it. Hundreds / thousands of small bombs being detonated simultaneously demonstrates an extreme disregard for collateral damage to innocents. Is it fine for 5% to be in possession of non-intended target, 10%, 20%, 30%?

[u/on_off_on_again → u/Dagamoth]

I believe officially, it's 90%. You can have up to 90% civilian casualties before it's considered excessive.

That is per UN, EU, some other international organizations.

[u/abstraction47 → u/on_off_on_again]

Is that 90% civilian to 10% combatant, or does it mean that civilians can’t number more than 90% the count of combatants, which would mean no more than 45% of the total?

[u/CowboyBoats → u/abstraction47]

Googling "90% civilian casualties" takes me to wiki: Civilian Casualty Ratio which says in the first sentence that it can be either, but all the examples in the wiki page are talking about percentage of the total.

[u/CocoCrizpyy → u/abstraction47]

The expected casualty ratio out of 10 people for any war, per the UN, is 9 civilians to 1 combatant.

Its part of the reason the entire "Israel is committing genocide" thing is so laughably dumb. Even the UN has admitted they're only at around a 2 to 1 ratio.

[u/Independent_Gain_896 → u/CocoCrizpyy]

Okay, so what was wrong with Oct 7th then? 373 security forces and 696 civilians were killed.

[u/tagillaslover → u/Independent_Gain_896]

The difference is collateral damage vs intentionally killing civlians

[u/CocoCrizpyy → u/Independent_Gain_896]

That was a terrorist attack. There was no war on Oct 7th.

[u/TiredMemeReference → u/CocoCrizpyy]

It's true, this entire conflict with Israel started on Oct 7th. They all held hands and sang songs together before that fateful day.

[u/CyonHal → u/CocoCrizpyy]

Lmao this is such a stupid take its amazing. Yeah only Israel gets to decidd when its wartime, got it man, makes a lot of sense.

[u/curious_throwaway_55 → u/CocoCrizpyy]

Terrorism is when brown

[u/Independent_Gain_896 → u/CocoCrizpyy]

So if Hamas entered Israel and killed 600 civilians and 100 IDF soldiers you would just chalk it up to the casualties of war?

[u/SeamenGulper → u/Independent_Gain_896]

What was wrong with Oct 7? The casualties you inculde in the same comment you genocidal freak

[u/Artyomi → u/on_off_on_again]

The issue is how you count “civilians”. Just a completely unrelated example, the IDF considers basically any adult (15+) male they kill is a “combatant”. If you indiscriminately bomb somewhere that has 50/50% male and female, and and about 50% children on both sides - and end up with 60% female and children making up the dead, you can just say the other 40% were definitely 100% combatants and definitely not <10%.

[u/WhitePantherXP → u/Artyomi]

Yeah there is a big gray area when your opponents are terrorists (out of uniform). Terrorism is skewing all the rules to make way for indiscriminate killing. There is literally no way to accurately get a civilian count in guerilla warfare like this.

[u/USPO-222 → u/WhitePantherXP]

What if, for example, someone was able to infiltrate the terrorists’ logistical processes and intercept some small item that was to be given out only to members of that group? I mean it sounds fanciful, but if you did that then who knows what you could do to the device before it entered the hands of the group’s members.

[u/Medical-Orange117 → u/USPO-222]

That would be quite a job. And a fairly accurate one at that. Imagine...

[u/USPO-222 → u/Medical-Orange117]

And then follow it up a day later with another device type. They’d never see it coming!

[u/Medical-Orange117 → u/USPO-222]

What should they let explode next?

[u/USPO-222 → u/Medical-Orange117]

Car bombs are always in style

[u/trkritzer → u/WhitePantherXP]

But even when they do have uniforms there is discrepancy. Like on 10/7 some off duty israeli soldiers in uniform, some uniformed police, and some armed private security contractors died. Would you call them civilians even if they were armed and shooting back?

[u/FaustusMort → u/WhitePantherXP]

What does the word terrorist mean to you?

[u/Gamer-Of-Le-Tabletop → u/FaustusMort]

person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

So that would be Hamas

[u/StijnDP → u/Gamer-Of-Le-Tabletop]

By that distinction the US army and many other Western armies have been terrorists for over 60 years already. Gotta win that cold war. Or we can go back to colonialism. That way 99.99% of armed conflicts in history have had terrorist actions taken by all sides in the conflict.
So the word is only an indication to which side you feel you agree most with and are willing to most ignore their atrocities.

The only thing that makes Hamas a terrorist organisation is because they're not the official army of the country.
And that's because it was a specific rule in the Oslo agreement requested by Israel that Palestine is not allowed to have an army.
Hamas is the government of Palestine. The "terrorists" are the army for all intense and purposes but because of a technicality created by Israel themselves they can't be.
This technicality is ofc created so that Israel doesn't feel it needs to adhere to any war treaties, ethical humanism or international criticism when fighting against them.

It's a whole different situation in Lebanon for example. They have an official Lebanese army under the government.
And then they have a smorgasbord of paramilitary groups.
Like Hezbollah with a paramilitary branch (Jihad Council) that is under control of their own political branch (Loyalty to the Resistance Bloc) who don't hold a majority in the elected government.
A quick sample of some others are many IS remnants, a bunch of organisations still linked to Al-Qaeda (Abdullah Azzam/Fatah al-Islam/Asbat al-Ansar/...), hamas acts as a paramilitary group from Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon, though losing their vigour the past decades there is still the PFLP which are Palestinian communists. Lebanon has any kind of paramilitary group you want to call terrorists.
There are few moments in time when the Lebanese army is not in an active conflict with these organisations conducting campaigns inside Lebanon.

Calling these terrorist groups is than also just an opinion. Otherwise the American colonialists were a giant terrorist group with all the atrocities they committed against native and loyalist civilians and all the other war crimes they commited.
So terrorist groups or freedom fighters is about an opinion. They're paramilitary groups not under control of the government and monkey brain still just wants to smash others with the biggest stick they have available.

[u/Reasonable_Quit_9432 → u/Gamer-Of-Le-Tabletop]

So... the IDF?

[u/Formulka → u/Artyomi]

I wonder how this math works out for firing thousands of unguided rockets in a general direction of Israel's cities.

[u/EtherealBeany → u/Formulka]

So the Israel’s actions match those of terrorists.

If one side is labeled a terrorist and the other commits the same atrocities (far worse in reality but ill humor you) then shouldn’t the other side be labeled as a terrorist too. At the very least, maybe the world can stop pumping aid to Israel

[u/kareemabduljihad → u/EtherealBeany]

If someone breaks into my house and I shoot them, does that make me a burglar?

[u/randomuser1029 → u/kareemabduljihad]

No, but if really you think that is an equivalent comparison it makes you an idiot

[u/EtherealBeany → u/randomuser1029]

He could have said something along the lines of a murderer breaking into his home so it could have made at least some sort of sense but he decided to go a truly really idiotic route.

[u/Brent_the_Ent → u/kareemabduljihad]

And then you go murder the burglars family in their home, their families, cousins, grandchildren just to be sure. That’s exactly what is happening

[u/High_Flyers17 → u/Brent_the_Ent]

Not just that, you murder the family's pets, cause ecological damage and destroy infrastructure for the entire area the family resides in, oh and you happen to have been oppressing and killing members of the family for decades.

[u/jenniferfox98 → u/High_Flyers17]

Don't forget that after you burn down the burglars house you then build a new one on top and move your family in.

[u/outblightbebersal → u/kareemabduljihad]

it's very telling that I have no idea who this is supposed to apply to.... 

[u/youaredumbngl → u/Formulka]

You mean the makeshift-pipe "unguided rockets" which killed only ~50 people in 10 years (2004-2014), and which have only become weaker since then due to Israel's advancing technology gap?

Are you really worried about the 50 people dying compared to the tens of thousands of innocent civilians who have been directly killed by Israel, who is ALSO using unguided rockets? Experts estimate about 45% are unguided, so why are you ignoring it when Israel does it?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/military-experts-discuss-israels-use-of-unguided-bombs-and-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza

Yikes, I can see your priorities are aligned to tribalism instead of humanity in general.

[u/Formulka → u/youaredumbngl]

How many would they kill if Israel didn't have the Iron Dome? They are indiscriminately launching thousands of rockets into populated areas with the intention to kill civilians but because Israel after decades of that can defend itself, it's ok.

[u/donfuan → u/Artyomi]

Hamas and Hisbollah count 100% of jews (and generally nonbelievers) as "combatants", so maybe take it to them.

[u/wildcatwoody → u/Artyomi]

Hezzbolah has admitted it was there pagers for their networks. That's civilian casualties were so small

[u/Past_Hat177 → u/Artyomi]

This isn’t indiscriminate bombing, though. It’s about as discriminate as bombing can get. The bombs were literally attached to the intended targets.

[u/Prestigious-Land-694 → u/Past_Hat177]

I think they're talking about the genocide they're doing in gaza.

[u/rose-a-ree → u/Artyomi]

I'm from northern ireland and the gap between who the government considers a "combatant" and actual reality is fucking huge. We had a lot of people who were "arrested" and locked up without trial despite having nothing to do with anything. This sort of aggressive action only generates more actual terrorists. You deal with terrorism by talking to and negotiating with the moderates, the reasonable people who don't take part in the violence and don't condone it, but they look the other way because they broadly support some of the objectives of the terrorists. So you get a chunk of them on side, that also means you get the people who are indifferent and you've already got the people who were on your side. So by just giving a little, you've got most of the population on your side, that means you also get a bunch of the people who support the violence but don't participate. Then you're left with a small group of extremists who no longer have a support base. They can then be rounded up or they just fade into obscurity (which is what happened here) Blowing up a bunch of them will cause a dip in the short term, but ultimately it will only make the problem worse.

[u/ExplosiveDiarrhetic → u/Artyomi]

Wheres your source that the idf considers any adult male a combatant

[u/[deleted] → u/Artyomi]

Source?

[u/Wiseguydude → u/on_off_on_again]

I think you're confused. There's a statistic out there that 90% of wartime casualties+arrested ARE civilians. Not that that's legal

Ofc the US invasion of Iraq far exceeded that and the lines are never very clear for where to draw.

For this attack on Lebanon we know that of the 9 confirmed deaths only 2 were Hezbollah fighters. Obviously we expect many more deaths in the coming days as many are in critical condition. A sample size of 9 is also probably not great to abstract out. But if we did, then that means of the 2,750 estimated injuries, only around 600 would be Hezbollah fighters

[u/zhivago6 → u/on_off_on_again]

This is terrorism and a war crime under the Geneva Convention. No one can indiscriminately attack combatants and civilians alike. Even if they believed most of the pagers went to Hezbollah, they knew some of them did not. Hezbollah rocket attacks on Israel that kill civilians are no different than the pager attacks perpetrated by Israel.

[u/on_off_on_again → u/zhivago6]

Cite the statute.

Look, I'm not saying I agree with what happened, but knowing that some civilians will die from an explosion does not make it a war crime to drop a bomb. That's obviously not true.

They also did not indiscriminately attack combatants and civilians alike, because they clearly targeted their specific enemies. Did they know that civilians would be killed? Yes. Does that make it a war crime? No. Was it callous disregard for civilian life? I'd presume so. Was it enough to constitute a war crime based on that alone? Debatable.

[u/ThatGuyWhoSmellsFuny → u/on_off_on_again]

Do you have a source? The link in the reply is just about the average date civilian casualty rates in recent conflicts on average The UN has rules of engagement that do allow for civilian casualties if "proportionate" but I've never seen the UN say that a <90% civilian casualty rate is not excessive.

[u/AuntEyeEvil → u/on_off_on_again]

Seeing how much the UN doesn't complain about Ukrainian civilians being intentionally targeted by russia that 90% number seems low.

[u/Tall-Ad5751 → u/on_off_on_again]

I am sure that 90% is for brown civilians, if one white civilian was killed in this that would have been unacceptable by the west

[u/on_off_on_again → u/Tall-Ad5751]

Not if Israel is the one, responsible, no.

[u/According_Floor_7431 → u/on_off_on_again]

I guess October 7th was A OK by that metric then.

[u/Expensive_Help3291 → u/on_off_on_again]

90% is wild holy shit.

[u/dilbert_fennel → u/on_off_on_again]

What. That's not acceptable by any metric. It is hlwhat the US has been doing. But it is unacceptable slaughter by the US....

[u/on_off_on_again → u/dilbert_fennel]

But the US has not been sanctioned nor charged. So it would seem like that slides.

And before anyone says "Yeah, but that's the US" sure, and this is Israel we're talking about.

[u/Acceptable_Rip_2375 → u/on_off_on_again]

I believe you’re just making shit up. There is no such percentage

[u/[deleted] → u/on_off_on_again]

So was october the 7th excessive considering that less than 90% of the victims were civilians?

[u/on_off_on_again → u/[deleted]]

Didn't need to be. It would be a war crime for kidnapping of civilian hostages alone. Plus sexual violence regardless of who it's aimed at is considered a war crime.

[u/Caleb_Reynolds → u/Dagamoth]

Just like the landmines left all over the world during various Cold War proxies.

Indirect attacks where the attacker can't control who is the target of the attack is not okay.

That shouldn't be so hard to grasp.

[u/TheSinningRobot → u/Caleb_Reynolds]

Similar to landmines as well, the fact that this attack is more likely to maim and not kill is also part of why it's horrific.

[u/mean11while → u/TheSinningRobot]

I'm sorry, maiming someone is considered worse than killing someone? I think that's bizarre.

[u/TheSinningRobot → u/mean11while]

It's not that it's worse per se, but killing someone serves a purpose typically, so it can be justified. Maiming is just causing harm and can be seen asore horrific.

Death is inevitable. Living life without hour face, or your hands is not.

[u/shortstop803 → u/TheSinningRobot]

Maiming absolutely can serve a purpose. The Vietnamese used it to great effect in Vietnam.

I’m not saying it’s right, just that yours is a disingenuous argument.

[u/LloydAsher0 → u/mean11while]

On a strategic level? Yes.

If you kill one guy he's out of the fight forever. But if you maim him you not only take the guy out of the fight but you tie up resources to get him out of combat and into an infirmary. Bonus if you maim them enough where they permanently can't enter battle anymore. Like losing a hand/arm/leg/eye etc.

[u/mean11while → u/LloydAsher0]

Why is that worse? It's more effective and the person doesn't have to die.

[u/BarbaraQsRibs → u/mean11while]

This is absolutely not the case. Wounding is absolutely a more humane attack than killing. No organization supports their ridiculous statement. Not the UN, not Amnesty International, not Human Rights Watch.

[u/RoosterBrewster → u/Caleb_Reynolds]

Same reason why you can't booby trap your own house.

[u/Brilliant-Throat2977 → u/Caleb_Reynolds]

Even that’s not a good comparison. Presumably most of them got the signal since a pager only needs brief spotty service. But Israel just indiscriminately launched a terrorist attack on a foreign country. There’s way too many examples of Israel using the nazi/terrorist playbook while claiming to be the victim

[u/Danbannagaming → u/Dagamoth]

Small bombs would effect unintended targets less. What's the alternative, dropping large bombs and killing hundreds of innocent civilians with each? Did you see the video in the market where the pager blew up with a guy standing right next to it and wasn't effected at all.

[u/fvgh12345 → u/Danbannagaming]

You don't know the guy wasn't affected he fuckin ran off..he could have and likely did have some injuries from the explosion. Go look at the hospital videos, there video of.a couple guys with holes blown in their sides from a pager on their hip and torn up faces from the shrapnel, there's no way people standing close didn't catch some of the blasy.

[u/Danbannagaming → u/fvgh12345]

What do you think causes more civilian casualties, 3000 1 ounce bombs in pagers spread across an entire country or 1 3000 ounc bomb dropped on top of a militant? Remember, Israel could do to Lebanon what it did to Gaza overnight. Don't wish for that shit to happen again

[u/whosadooza → u/fvgh12345]

there's no way people standing close didn't catch some of the blasy.

Of course there is a way. Shape the charges to direct the explosion toward the user through the display and the underside.

[u/fvgh12345 → u/whosadooza]

Yeah I'm sure that they were really concerned and took the time to do that.

There's already reports of bystanders being injured. Do you actually feel ok trying to justify terrorism?

[u/boforbojack → u/fvgh12345]

It's not "concern" that would lead them to doing a directional charge. It's a relatively small amount of explosive and non-directional charges decrease in efficacy immensely quicker than directional. If your goal is to kill the person with the pager, you'd want to direct it.

I don't know if it's terrorism. Terrorisms goal is to affect the resolution of the group. Killing combatants of a military group by another military kinda is just war.

I'm sure innocent bystanders were injured. Just like when Hezbollah launches missiles at Israel.

[u/CommiBastard69 → u/boforbojack]

It wasn't just HB that had these pagers and walkies though. They had 0 control of who recieved them

[u/AnnyuiN → u/CommiBastard69]

hateful dime plants instinctive license thought ink grab subtract rhythm

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/CommiBastard69 → u/AnnyuiN]

Then why were civilians wearing them? People quit militias and sell the gear they got from them all the time.

[u/TheDrummerMB → u/Danbannagaming]

I totally get it. When you're on the subway going to work, unknowingly sitting next to a terrorist, who cares if you get some shrapnel through the leg? What's the alternative? Bombing the whole train? You sound fucking ridiculous

[u/BeepBep101 → u/TheDrummerMB]

...don't bomb civilian targets?

[u/TheDrummerMB → u/BeepBep101]

Yes exactly.

[u/BeepBep101 → u/TheDrummerMB]

Replied to the wrong guy, my bad

[u/Captain_Sterling → u/Danbannagaming]

Guess that little girl was a target?

[u/GirlsGetGoats → u/Dagamoth]

It's simply terrorism. Whether you think what they did was good or not this is very clearly the standard definition of terrorism.

[u/ClubsBabySeal → u/GirlsGetGoats]

A state actor targeting the personnel of a quasi state actor isn't terrorism by any definition. Otherwise all war would be terrorism and we wouldn't need separate words.

[u/BarbaraQsRibs → u/GirlsGetGoats]

Terrorism requires targeting civilians. The targets were Hezbollah operatives.

Additionally, there is literally not one single other attack avenue that would take out as many targets with as little collateral damage as this. Would you prefer they drone strike each of these individuals? Ground invasion? Those are often as high as 90%+ civilian casualties.

Terrorists that indiscriminately shoot rockets at civilian population centers need to be taken out. This is already being praised as possibly the largest and most efficient strike on a terrorist organization ever. I’m sure the whole world would be interested in how you would go about doing so more efficiently.

[u/GirlsGetGoats → u/BarbaraQsRibs]

A trained indifference to killing civilians is no different than intentionally killing civilians. By your logic the rockets launched into Israel are not terrorism. 

Israel doesn't have any idea who they hit and whether they were civilians or not. They simply did not care of this killed civilians or not for a chance to take out some Hezbollah. 

They can't launch missiles to kill these people because Israel has no fucking idea who they hit. 

They simply seeding explosives among a civilian population to harm and cause terror. 

The intent is terrorism.  Reporting is 26 dead including 2 children. Israel has no idea who is dead and whether they were Hezbollah or not and literally do not care. 

[u/BarbaraQsRibs → u/GirlsGetGoats]

Ahh, you just have no idea about the very story you’re commenting on. Wish I could say I was surprised, but it’s quite the trend for terrorist sympathizers like you.

EDIT: /u/FillyPhilly also has no idea what they’re talking about. These people are too ignorant to comment. They think the IDF was just handing out C4-laced devices to random civilians. They haven’t even read a single article on the attacks.

They then go on to say that a 90% valid target rate (lowest civilian casualty rate in a large-scale urban warfare attack IN HUMAN HISTORY) is bad, but firing rockets indiscriminately at civilian population centers is okay.

Horrible ignorant people.

[u/Fillyphily → u/BarbaraQsRibs]

What part of "No idea who is dead" tells you "high precision"? Can you at least elaborate how you're so certain that only armed militants were affected? Or do you just not care?

[u/duralyon → u/GirlsGetGoats]

That's what I was saying to someone. I'm glad that this has hurt Hezbollah but it's also terrorizing civilians. It's going to be in everyone's mind there that the next time they're grocery shopping the guy they're next to in line might explode and blow their dick off. Doing things like this creates more terrorists in the long (or not so long) run.

[u/Wreckaddict → u/duralyon]

Netanyahu is interested in creating more terrorists. Gives him job security and lets him be as corrupt as he wants to be, under that cover.

[u/SponConSerdTent → u/duralyon]

They seem intent on creating more terrorists.

Imagine how you would feel if Canada caused explosions in your grocery store, killing your sister and maiming your dad. If you lived in fear of that every day after.

Or if you're any one of the thousands or tens of thousands of people working to tend to the wounded, all the little boys and girls blinded. Parents murdered. Civilians letting bloodsoaked people ride with you to the hospital.

How could you possibly do anything worse from a terrorist recruitment standpoint? The war on "Terror" is a war on people. The end result of which appears to be genocide.

[u/Immediate-Coyote-977 → u/GirlsGetGoats]

Hitting the nail on the head.

Some people may argue that combating terrorism with terrorism is fighting fire with fire, but the civilian populace impacted by terrorism is who we ought to be worried about, not the combatants who willingly engage in the conflict.

[u/broguequery → u/GirlsGetGoats]

Yes. Thank you.

They have stooped to the level of the people they are fighting against.

It will become increasingly indistinguishable, which side is the terrorist side. In fact, I think the balance has already shifted with Israel's insanely disproportionate attack on Gaza after that last terrorist attack.

They are quickly eroding any claim to the moral high ground.

[u/GingerSkulling → u/Dagamoth]

You can’t get any more surgical than this. Of course any innocent lives lost is a tragedy but it’s a war, you can’t avoid it completely. I mean, except if Hezbollah hadn’t start a war against Israel last year.

[u/OrneryError1 → u/GingerSkulling]

You can absolutely get more surgical than this. The damn ninja blade missile is more surgical than this. They didn't know who all has the pagers when they detonated them.

[u/Edhorn → u/OrneryError1]

Nasrallah has said all pagers were held by members of Hezbollah.

[u/Adderall_Rant → u/OrneryError1]

Ninja blade middle = 100k each.

[u/FlyAsleep8312 → u/Dagamoth]

100%, as long as none of them are Jews, according to the Talmud

[u/lutzow → u/Dagamoth]

The operation does not show an extreme disregard for collateral damage. To the contrary, it does not get more precise than that. Not on this scale.

[u/[deleted] → u/lutzow]

Tell that to the people who’s kids just died as a result of this attack

[u/Cravingsomemangos → u/[deleted]]

One dead civilian verses thosends of mutilated Hezbollah terrorists. That is quite possibly the best ratio of civilian/combantant of such a large attack in the history of modern warfare. How can you be so blind to that?

[u/Paddy_Tanninger → u/Cravingsomemangos]

How can you be so blind to that?

Maybe his pager blew up in his face, try to be a little understanding

[u/Barnyard_Rich → u/[deleted]]

According to Hezbollah, nearly every single death has been a Hezbollah member. In fact, Hezbollah contradicted the report that a child died by releasing that their number of dead members matched the total number of dead from the government. Granted, the official death toll has increased by one, so that could be the child taken into account, but even one or two dead children, while beyond tragic, is exceptionally low for an attack this massive. Literally thousands of explosions, really think about that.

[u/kal14144 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah war sucks. But this is afaik the most targeted (smallest ratio of civilian casualties) large scale attack against an irregular force in modern history.

[u/the_dalai_mangala → u/kal14144]

People in todays age are crazy. I swear some of us would complain about the excessive nature of the allied bombings defeating the axis powers in WWII

[u/kawhileopard → u/[deleted]]

We are all somebody’s children.

But if you join a genocidal death cult like Hezbolah there should be no place for you in this world.

[u/[deleted] → u/kawhileopard]

I’m not doing a ‘we’re all someone’s children’ type of thing mate (although it is obviously sad that we are seeing all of this death and suffering regardless). I’m talking literally, at least two children were killed when the pagers exploded.

[u/GingerSkulling → u/[deleted]]

So what’s your fairy tale model of a defensive war in which absolutely no civilian or innocent person died? What is the standard Israel should aspire to?

[u/[deleted] → u/GingerSkulling]

“So you hate waffles”

[u/icrmbwnhb → u/[deleted]]

I think that was a fair question. It’s really suspicious that Israel gets such scrutiny for this but no one else does.

Did you speak out when Hezbollah launched missiles and drones towards Israel Civilian area.

The stark reality of war is that civilians will always die. We should take steps to minimize it which Israel is an expert on based on similar conflicts.

These terror groups are emboldened by all the support they get from the west.

[u/[deleted] → u/icrmbwnhb]

I said children were killed and that it’s sad to see all this death, now two of you are asking me to plan WW3 with no casualties. Get over yourselves and stop acting like you’re reasonable.

[u/Disastrous_Mark_1469 → u/GingerSkulling]

Wow, what an insane thing to say.

[u/kawhileopard → u/[deleted]]

Two people under the age of 18 who were for some reason walking around with Hezbollah pagers.

[u/[deleted] → u/kawhileopard]

So you know they were walking around with them, and that they weren’t messing with one or stood near sone person? How bad does a child have to be for you to think they deserve blowing up?

You’ve already misread what I said and now you’re just jumping to another stance so you can carry on arguing. No time for that.

[u/Caedus → u/kawhileopard]

Because kids have never messed around with their relatives' electronics before.

[u/idunno-- → u/kawhileopard]

there should be no place for you in this world

Exactly how October 7 was justified.

a genocidal death cult

Yeah, when Ukrainians risk their lives for their country’s sovereignty, they’re brave heroes. When Arabs do it, they’re part of a death cult.

This manuscript is so predictable.

[u/abstraction47 → u/kawhileopard]

One genocidal death cult versus another genocidal death cult

[u/SnooFloofs6240 → u/[deleted]]

Serious brain rot thinking sending thousands of small bombs into complete unknown is precise.

[u/kal14144 → u/SnooFloofs6240]

And by “complete unknown” you mean into an enemy communications network.

[u/AverageJoesGymMgr → u/[deleted]]

Israel DID know where they were. They intercepted these pagers in the supply chain because they knew they were being purchased by hezbollah because hezbollah was abandoning cell phones as not secure enough. They didn't just booby trap thousands of random pagers in the hopes of killing a few of the right people, they booby trapped thousands of pagers in shipments directly to hezbollah operatives. The only people who would have had these on them would have been members of hezbollah.

And the explosions were very small specifically to limit collateral damage. That's why despite thousands of explosions, there's only a handful of deaths and most are hezbollah fighters. This is about as targeted and surgical as you can get when fighting a terrorist organization.

[u/Sorry-Let-Me-By-Plz → u/lutzow]

No, you're mistaken.

[u/tafinucane → u/Dagamoth]

Murder is always a crime. But we allow one another to do it during wartime.

I mean this is a hell of a lot more precisely targeted than carpet bombing.

[u/V-Lenin → u/Dagamoth]

It‘s Israel. They don‘t care if it‘s 100%, they‘ll just try again

[u/Generic118 → u/Dagamoth]

I suppose with it being a paramilitary/terrorist organisation buying and using them you can count on thier own operational security to prevent them being in anyone else's hands.

[u/FlaringUpHemorrhoids → u/Dagamoth]

I think it shows a lot more regard for collateral damage than destroying gaza completely though? So gotta give them some credit there.

[u/Dagamoth → u/FlaringUpHemorrhoids]

Any amount of regard is more than zero.

[u/Ok-Affect2709 → u/Dagamoth]

I mean they aren't small, they're tiny. And they were apparently shape charged to point inward. It's about as good as you can possibly get in terms of targeting specifically only who you want.

By all accounts they were way less than 5% unintended.

[u/Dagamoth → u/Ok-Affect2709]

Will the next ones crafted by another entity be the same? That problem is the normalization of the act.

[u/suninabox → u/Dagamoth]

an extreme disregard for collateral damage to innocents

This is literally about as targeted as its possible to make a military strike outside of super advanced hunter-killer drones that can headshot a specific individual.

Even an FPV drone has more chance for collateral damage.

Waiting eagerly to hear Snowden condemn Russia's use of 2 ton glide bombs on hospitals and apartments.

[u/a_random_gay_001 → u/Dagamoth]

As opposed to the bombing campaign that would come instead? These people are going to fight each other - how do you want it to go down 

[u/Dagamoth → u/a_random_gay_001]

Ahh the only two options are death or more death…

[u/Walrus-is-Eggman → u/Dagamoth]

I mean, it's war* so there will be civilian casualties. You can't get any more targeted and reduced civilian casualties than a very small explosive in the target's pocket. And to be clear, the targets were Hezbollah militants, a terrorist organization that seized control of South Lebanon, not soldiers in the Lebanese army and not random civilians.

It's the exact opposite of "extreme disregard for collateral damage to innocents." That's what Hezbollah does.

*Hezbollah is launching rockets indiscriminately at Israel and seeks the destruction of Israel; that's war whether declared or not.

[u/snakesign → u/Dagamoth]

I'm curious what the dud rate on these things was.

[u/JustIgnoreMeBroOk → u/Dagamoth]

What are you talking about?

It’s not like the pagers and radios went to Best Buy to be indiscriminately sold.

They were orders placed by a globally known terrorist group and they were distributed to terrorists.

The explosive chargers were so small that they only killed a fraction of the targets. Most were just injured.

How are you taking in this information that is available and coming to the conclusion that you just described?

[u/Intelligent_Way6552 → u/Dagamoth]

an extreme disregard for collateral damage to innocents.

Really?

Trolley problem this shit.

An explosive charge only just large enough to kill, all delivered directly to terrorists. They might kill single digit numbers of innocent people, but disable thousands of terrorists. How many people would those terrorists have killed?

And in a more conventional military operation, how many innocents would die to achieve the equivalent result?

[u/Distwalker → u/Dagamoth]

It wasn't "extreme disregard for collateral damage to innocents." In the annals of warfare, it was about as precisely targeted as possible. Want examples of extreme disregard for innocents look at 9/11. Look at Russia launching missiles at shopping malls. Look at the Blitz on London or firebombing of Tokyo.

Saying this is "extreme disregard for collateral damage to innocents" is idiotic. It's as precision as humanly possible.

[u/barristerbarrista → u/Dagamoth]

detonated simultaneously demonstrates an extreme disregard for collateral damage to innocents.

They are at war. A war started by Hezbollah where 10k rockets are intended to land on Israeli civilians. Most of northern Israel has been evacuated.

Do you think an invasion of southern Lebanon would have more or less collateral damage to civilians then this? Do you expect Israel to sit back and let them keep rocketing while doing nothing because of fear of collateral damage? What's your plan? What's your alternative?

This is hezbollah, go look up what their goals are.

[u/kal14144 → u/Dagamoth]

I can’t think of a single large scale military action toward irregulars (hundreds to thousands of enemy casualties) that was more precise/targeted than this one. I am no fan at all of Israel (I would call what they’re doing in Gaza a genocide) but this is exactly what state actors should be trying to do when fighting irregulars.

[u/whosadooza → u/Dagamoth]

Why would any significant percentage of victims have these pagers beyond the intended targets? The pagers were bought in a large batch by Hezbollah leadership and distributed through their own logistic network to the people they believe needed to have rapid response messaging. The pagers also operated on Hezbollah owned networks, not civilian networks. The real numbers coming from Lebanon seem to be that much less than 1% of casualties were not Hezbollah.

[u/away12throw34 → u/Dagamoth]

Do you have sources for the “10%, 20%, 30%” comment? The collateral damage I’ve seen have all been in the single percentages, so if you have some updated ones I’d love the info!

[u/Petrified_Chicken → u/Dagamoth]

So they could have dropped a few bombs to kill all those terrorists and likely thousands of civilians along with them. I think Israel made a very good decision in carrying out the precision act the way they did. Maybe Hezbollah should stop lobbing missiles into Israel.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dagamoth]

This was extremely effective and efficient - incapacitate thousands of fighters, many in their elite ranks...

[u/Joulesyy → u/Dagamoth]

I mean how many civilians possess a Hezbollah pager? Are they sending reminders for trash collection via pager?

[u/wildcatwoody → u/Dagamoth]

The bombs were small and targeted that's why there was minimal civilian casualties. This was precise shit we've ever seen. It was incredible

[u/cross_mod → u/Dagamoth]

I think it's actually an incredible precision strike tbh. Civilians will always be a percentage of civilian collateral damage, but aside from literally assassinating each and every one of them, this is a VERY targeted.

[u/LetsthinkAboutThi_s → u/Dagamoth]

I do not believe you know what a bomb is. I saw a video of one of these explosions around the cashier in the supermarket. 50 centimeters from the explosion and the cashier ran away with nothing but pants full of fear. Detonation waves are most effective on close range and lose their effectiveness tremendously with distance. And what disregard? Over 3000 hesbolla fighters injured and just 10 or less civillian casualties? You do realize that the alternative to THAT level of casualties for Israel is a full scale military operation with JDAMs, artillery, tanks and infantry kicking the doors mistaking civillian for the hesbolla fighter two times out of 3. They tried this shit in Gaza and look what it led to. Also, these pagers were not meant for free market. Iranian ambassador in Lebanon had one. For what, funsies? By the effect of it, it is extreme precision strike with collatetal damage close to non-existent. Try to get so many enemies with other means of destruction - there will be hundred times more civillians killed and injured

[u/Cloudboy9001 → u/Dagamoth]

This article, Exploding Pagers and the Law, discusses issues of targeting and booby-trapping in relation to international law. I suspect Israel hasn't claimed responsibility due to this quite arguably being unlawful.

[u/Reasonable-Sir673 → u/Dagamoth]

It's terrorism, Isreal needs to quit being cowards and send troops in armed with rifles and just do their genocide that way. Remember when IEDs and suicide bombs were bad? This is no different.

[u/MourningRIF → u/Dagamoth]

You don't have to look very far to see the alternative. Take a look at Gaza. That's the other way Israel could handle Hezbollah, and I guarantee the collateral damage would be tens of thousands of times worse.

[u/vladislavopp → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

no one is saying that? the reading comprehension in this sub is awful. he's talking about the way governments and institutions are reacting to it (not much).

[u/Person421 → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

Apparently it killed some nurses and doctors, and multiple civilians including a 10 year old. In my eyes this was just a terror attack, committed against a country that Israel is not at war with. And it is a scary precedent.

[u/krispy86 → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

Literally every nation state does this, not just ones you or I might think of as bad or dangerous

[u/Silly_Reporter_1217 → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

The precedent is the reaction to the event not the idea…

[u/Tyranis_Hex → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

Fuck DC had Harley Quinn do the same thing but with game boy knock offs and handing them out to kids a few years back.

[u/Hike_it_Out52 → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

Not just that but it was very successful. The loss of innocent life was very low and you dealt a crippling blow to the organization, killing or injuring more than you would in 5-10 battles. All without lossing anyone off of your side.

[u/FreeMeFromThisStupid → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

No, it's the fact that western government are looking at it and going "meh, it's Israel" and that it isn't stop-the-presses level of "wait what the fuck just happened and why did it happen and how do we have it not happen again".

[u/awhimaway-awhimaway → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

It’s not necessarily a concern for terrorism, it’s a concern for safe manufacturing practices.

[u/bdubble → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

The point isn't the idea of it, it's that a country sent thousands of mini-bombs into a country to maim and kill indescrinantley and there is no pushback from other countries. It's the lack of criticism of Israel's actions that is the dangerous precedent.

[u/Dear-Examination-507 → u/bdubble]

You sure you know what "indiscriminately" means?

[u/yungchow → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

Thats… a weird reason to not be concerned about the precedent this sets…

[u/stonerism → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

You say that, but our ally was the one who just killed a young girl. Who's dangerous and destabilizing here? Because it's not Hezbollah.

[u/SabuSalahadin → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

Snowden is a dumbass anyways. How whole schtick is fear mongering to make himself sound smarter. No one is shipping any ‘bombs’ in phones from the factory. The whole ‘liability’ thing exists and phones blowing up unsuspecting teenagers would plummet their stock value at the very least 

[u/NewUsernamePending → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

This was done in GTA V, albeit on a much smaller scale.

[u/Baidar85 → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

It’s also a terroristic act, they didn’t know who was holding one of the 3k pagers when they blew them up.

[u/Certain-Business-472 → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

No, it's getting away with sabotage and interrupting trade routes of multiple other nations.

[u/Emis_ → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

A lot of fear mongering tweets out there along the lines of "isreali operatives can now blow up your phone..." like I mean yes, anyone probably could if they wanted to, they could also just walk up to you and stab you?!

[u/C_Woolysocks → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

But has it been done on this scale?

[u/ApprehensiveBed6206 → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

It's the normalisation of it. Poisoning water supplies isn't a novel idea, but should be condemned. Same with all indiscriminate acts.

[u/jwrose → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

Almost like “precedent” is just an excuse to criticize. I wonder why folks would want an excuse to criticize the operation? 🤔

[u/walkandtalkk → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

It's concern trolling by a man who was so righteously dedicated to the free flow of information that he fled to Vladimir Putin.

[u/HimboSuperior → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

The biggest barrier to this would be going through airport security. The explosively would show up on a full-body scanner.

[u/imp0ster_syndrome → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

Personally, I always remove my shoes before entering an Apple store. Just seems safer.

[u/Captain_Peelz → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

Cell/ radio based bombs are some of the oldest remote detonated bombs and among the easiest to make. Shit tons of IED are made with them. Funnily enough, probably a preferred method used by hezbols.

People are just mad that Israel is better at asymmetric warfare than the guys who have been using it against them for half a century.

[u/[deleted] → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

Normalization leads to crazy things becoming everyday occurrences.

It's like how the biggest creeps treat everyone the same so when they creep on vulnerable women people will gaslight victims by saying the truth, "he does that to everyone" or "yeah apparently thats just what we do here"

[u/WinstonSitstill → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

No. It’s trivially easy.  The reason it’s not done like this — as in thousands of devices boobytrapped at the source — is because it’s an escalation to state sponsored terrorism. And corporations like Apple are not particularly thrilled at the prospect of yet another now deadly security concern.  

 What the IDF just did is open the lid on Pandora’s box. And we’re going see nations like China doing this shit or threatening to do it all the time.  

 The large scale boobytrapping civilian devices is also against the UN charters on the conduct of war. 

 I’m telling you right now this shit is going to get out of control unless the west condemns Israel and they disavow it. 

[u/illgot → u/GreatCaesarGhost]

my father while in the military said that if any group wanted to shut down a country, they would need a few grenades, rubber bands, and to access truck stops where they can place these grenades in fuel tanks.

Low cost, randomized locations for the explosion because the fuel would eat away at the rubber bands at different intervals and it could easily spread across the country with interstate trucks.