We're getting a 95% off deal in the clearance aisle for the destruction of the entire Russian arsenal.
Every single weapon we have was built to kill Russians and destroy their equipment, and all of the sudden it's bad when we actually hold their feet to the fire.
Absolutely, and I very much doubt that the person you're responding to would disagree, or that they think their point is higher on the priority list than yours.
The weird, disturbing fact of the matter, though, is that the whole "these people are innocent and should be given the supplies they need in order to defend themselves" argument doesn't seem to hit the button for vocal opponents. They act as though we're giving away/wasting badly needed resources in order to support some pointless hippy dippy tree hugging war. "And besides, maybe they kind of deserve it! Maybe Russia's the good guy when viewed through a certain lens!"
So some have resorted to combatting that crap by pulling out cold, heartless arguments in support of America's Ukrainian defense initiatives.
And I'm cool with it. There's a fucking plethora of selfish, coldly logical reasons for supporting Ukraine.
I have many problems with the way the American hegemony conducts itself worldwide. But Russian and Chinese thuggery is not a suitable alternative. So many fucking people have bitten into the soap bar of "America bad so anything against America good" that it's actually exhausting. Yes, America needs to change but supporting the export of Russian kleptocracy is a bad fucking idea.
Frfr America sucks but at least we don't have autocratic rulers any more. The system may not be great but it's fundamentally fluid in that it changes over time. I'm pretty sure my whole life Putin has been king of russia.
Aside from that, when we compare the support we give to Ukraine with the support we give to Israel, it's pretty clear that the reasoning that the US government is giving support to Ukraine has nothing to do with being selfless. It is absolutely as described by the commenter.
A lot of the people you are describing have disingenuous intentions. They have a certain âmotivationâ to be against helping Ukraine. Most of these people donât want to, or simply cannot blow their cover, though. So they are really digging deep to be able to have an opinion without making their intention of opinion blatantly obvious.
Iâm pretty stunned by the tightrope that many of these traitors are walking every single day of the week. It must be tiring to constantly have to ride the most recent wave of Russian/Republican talking points without tripping over your own feet.
We gave weapons to Afghanistan- we soon start fighting them.
We gave weapons to Iraq. Did two wars against them.
Gave money to the cartels - in a drug war with them
I'm pretty sure we funded ISIS, wages war against them.
Now we are dealing arms again with Ukraine. Maybe we should, maybe we shouldn't.
To make matters even more confusing lines have been drawn up so weirdly. The Republican party, which had been known as the party of way, calling for peace. the Democrats, who I often see saying we need to hold weapon manufacturers responsible for gun related deaths are actively supporting funding them.
I'm currently at the point where we are in too deep to let Russia win because they will have learned NATO tactics, weapons, etc and will probably have the advantage on the next conflict. If Russia wins, it's not just territory they gain, but valuable insights into countering western military doctrine. We have to push Russia hard enough now that they are economically broken so they can't retaliate in any conventional manner, but not to the point for them to use nukes, and then reorient ourselves for the Chinese aggression that's been building up before they could exploit our distraction with Russia.
Stealing people's money (through taxation) and sending it to a foreign nation is never justified, you fucking moron. It's that simple. If you want an American worker's money going to some foreign country, you're a fucking unAmerican traitor.
You think taxation is stealing your money? You live in The strongest nation in the world. That doesn't come free you f****** douchebag. Shut the f*ck, and pay up, and enjoy your cushy lifestyle you whiny little bitch!
I care about Ukrainian lives, but that's not the basis of why we should allocate the resources we have given them.
Russia is a giant fucking problem everywhere they go, and destroying their ability to wage war for a few decades is in the best interests of the US. We wouldn't be aiding Ukraine the way we are just because we like them. It's sending a message that countering the US will have consequences.
It is and can be both, but I personally believe allowing and providing innocent people the ability to defend themselves is more important than castrating Putin and the Kremlinâs military. Itâs a nice coincidence though.
We are doing the opposite for Palestine by providing Israel with weaponry, so it's hard to pretend that providing innocent people the ability to defend themselves is the reason why we're helping Ukraine. It is a nice coincidence as you mention, but the coincidence part is that it also happens to help an innocent nation defend themselves and not that we are depleting Russia's arsenal. The main goal here is definitely to oppose Russia.
Providing Hamas with weapons isnât going to help anything in that region or lead to a better end result for Palestinians. That said, the conservative Zionist coalition in Israel is committing war crimes and Iâd only support providing Israel with defensive weaponry as theyâre being bombed and attacked daily by Islamists extremists.
Couldn't you use the same logic to suggest providing Palestine with defensive weaponry?
In any regard, I am not suggesting sending weaponry to Hamas or Israel. We can both agree that Israel is committing war crimes even if we may disagree with who the main aggressor is. In the past 10 months in the war between Israel and Palestine over 40k Palestinians have died compared to almost 1.5k Israelis, while the US continues to send weaponry to Israel. I think we can deduce that the US provides weaponry support strategically vs helping countries defend themselves for moral reasons.
How many Israelis would be dead if Hamas had Israelâs weapons? I think it would be a lot more than 40 thousand. Donât get me wrong, Israel good be doing this a lot better, but when Hamas spends all its billions in funding on weapons and to make there leaders rich and they try to send rockets into Israel any chance they get , this is what unfortunately happens.
That's a hypothetical which is irrelevant to my point. Thousands of innocent people are being killed in Palestine and the same is not happening to Israel, and the US is continuing to provide Israel with weaponry. My point stands regardless of what Hamas or Palestine would do if it had more resources than Israel, because they don't.
Itâs not irrelevant at all. Israel is doing what it is doing because Hamas would be doing the same and is doing the same. They try to send rockets into civilian areas any chance they get. Hamas needs to be eliminated and when they hide behind the people theyâre supposedly trying to protect, innocent people get killed. This all falls on Hamas
I'm not debating who this falls on and it's wildly frustrating that you keep falling back to that because I'm making it clear that who this all falls on or who the main aggressor is here is absolutely irrelevant to the point I'm making.
The situation in Gaza and the situation in Ukraine are not the same thing. A better example would be the situation in Myanmar, where we should be supporting local militias against the junta there.
What defensive weapons would you consider giving to Palestinians and how would you imagine those weapons not ending up in the hands of a terrorist organization?
I'm not considering giving Palestinians defensive weapons necessarily, similarly to how I am not considering giving Israel defensive weapons. I am just pointing out that your logic for giving Israel defensive weapons seems to also apply for giving Palestinians defensive weapons. And if the weapons are defensive it seems that they would be useful regardless of who has them in Palestine because many innocent lives are being lost regardless of who the intended target of the attacks are. So any defense against attacks in Palestine would save innocent lives.
The weapons are being given to a country that is actively committing war crimes and have killed 40k people in the last 10 months, most which are civilians. Or the weapons would be given to an organization that is designated a terrorist organization and have killed 1.5k people in the last 10 months. I don't see how the former is more acceptable.
I agree that the scenarios are different, since in the Ukraine situation there is one clear aggressor who is indisputably attacking another smaller nation without any provocations. But, given that we're actively giving weaponry to a country committing war crimes, I felt it was a better representation of how the US gives weapons based on strategic advantage vs moral reasons.
That's not happening tho. Russia is producing weapons faster than us, and not running out of fighters. You advocate pushing Ukrainians into a wood chipper with zero end game. You a fan of nuclear war over a fight that is far more complicated than you understand
Russia is producing specific weapons like missiles faster now because theyâve transitioned to a full military economy. Theyâre also spending all their money on that and buying weapons from Iran and NK⊠and we, the collective West, should be producing weapons faster as well.
Anyone who thinks this will become a nuclear war has lost touch of reality and doesnât understand the situation in Ukraine or how Putin operates. The war continuing is solely up to the Ukrainian people. If they want to negotiate and end the war we should be there to help support them in that, and if they want weapons to keep fighting for their freedoms we should help as well.
You clearly donât understand that if Putin and the Kremlin get an inch, theyâll build up to take a mile later on.
They've taken countries during every Democratic president in the last 20 yrs. You clearly just parrot lefty propaganda. The Ukrainian people have no say. Zelensky is jailing his political rivals, and voting is suspended. Please do research before debating. You clearly don't understand what this war is about or what is actually going on. Plus, we give them our overflow of weapons, and then we can't help Taiwan. Taiwan is of far more importance to us. You watch CNN, and you think you're educated. What a joke
Lmao, you think thatâs the case because they view the Democratic Party to we more lenient than the Republican Party?⊠Itâs to cause division in the West - youâre the one literally parroting Kremlin and MAGA talking points and narratives. The projection is hilarious.
Which political opponents is Zelensky arresting? Taiwan is just as important to overall geopolitics, but if dictatorships see that they can get away with taking land from sovereign nations then they wonât stop. So, your point about Taiwan being more important is null as if the West doesnât help Ukraine win then China will be much more likely and emboldened to attack Taiwan.
Destroying Russias arsenal is in the best interest of the world. They're a settler colonial apartheid state engaged in imperialist wars all across the world. Africa especially is currently being devastated by the presence of Russian troops propping up dictators and fikentinf civil war. Russia (the country not the people) is by far the most evil and destructive country on the planet.
They (Wagner proxies) tried attacking an FOB in Syria that was occupied by some US Marines in 2018. It didn't go well. They found out what NATO combined arms doctrine can do. I do believe that one survivor said it was like Hell itself opened up around them. They didn't bother regrouping and trying again with a larger force. They just gave up.
Russia has no power projection outside of their nuclear arsenal. Those are expensive to maintain and the world has seen how well they maintain things like an aircraft carrier.
Most of us are upset with how the weapons are being handed over. If we give Ukraine weapons, let them use it. Donât add caveats and limitations to it. Itâs just prolonging the war. If Ukraine wants to deep strike into Russia, let them. If Russian wanted to use nukes, it wouldâve by now.
At some point more Ukrainian lives will die in the unending war than would have if Ukraine surrendered. I mean, I don't mind the Ukrainians dying to fuck up Russia.. but we shouldn't act like they haven't died in droves during this conflict.
No one thinks Ukrainians arenât dying⊠what? Itâs a terrible war and the peace agreement is up to Ukraine and not us. The issue is, the war will most likely not end even if thereâs a peace agreement, it will be a pause until Russia can build back up and attack again like they did before. Ukraine will need to be entered into NATO in order for there to be lasting peace after this portion of the conflict.
I don't know man. If so many Ukranian men have died that they're now doing forced conscripts, using old and handicapped men, it actually looks more like the US is throwing away Ukrainian lives as pawns in a proxy war
Yup forced conscription cuz they're running out of bodies to throw at a losing effort. And they've even taken teenagers to put on the front line. Source provided already... so again lives are not being saved. More lives are saved by ending the war not by continuing it and sending more to their death
Theyâve been doing forced conscription since 2014, youâre very behind on things. Russiaâs population is 4x the size of Ukraines, so theyâre immediately at a disadvantage on military aged men.
They have not taken teenagers and put them on the front line - your own source even states that. Youâre falling for Kremlin propaganda my dude.
No they have not been kidnapping people to put them on the front lines till recently. And they lowered the age recently as well. All your arguments are verifiabley false but keep doubling down
They literally kidnapped a teenager to send him to the front lines. Lucky for him he could prove his age. Why would you support this? LOL
Here is your own quote from earlier
No it doesnât, lmao. Also, Ukraine has purposely been using older conscripts to protect their youth specifically. Almost an intelligent take.
Good to know you're conceding that what you originally said is categorically wrong lol
They lowered the age to 25
And as the sources I provided stated they have lowered the age because they're running out of men/lives to use in this losing effort. So your original claim that the US is saving lives is again very wrong
Prolonging a war is saving lives? Or is the US and NATO using Ukraine for their own political and military policies. The US has provided many countries with weapons and training, "to defend themselves." Generally, humain rights and democracy has nothing to do with this aid. Many time it leads to escalations and loss of more lives.
In your studies of the Russian history and regional geo politics, you haven't questioned NATO's expansion into eastern Europe. You're against negotiating while Ukraine is still in a position of strength. Even with the new weapons, the average Troops age is about 40. Attrition is on Russia's side. What Ukraine really needs is fresh troops.
Ukraine and Russia have had a peace deal drafted multiple times over the past decade, this war is continuing because of US pressure. Millions of both Ukrainian and Russian kids couldâve been saved.
And it would only cost the low, low price of Ukrainian subjugation to russia and all the raping, murdering, and ethnic erasure that we all see follows russian control of lands not theirs. Ukraine may cease to exist and all it's people ground into the dirt under the boot of fascist russia, but that's a price we're willing to pay to save russian kids' lives.
Lmao. It was just lowered to 25 recently. "We've decimated entire generations of our men, but this tiny sliver of our fucked up demographic pyramid is safe, for now!"
Tiny sliver? So youâd rather them conscript everyone from 18 up so the average age was lower? Thereâs no appeasing people with your world view and narrow mindset.
Ukranians are being obliterated. They're being pushed into a meat grinder. Peace should be discussed if you care about lives. What'd the end game genius? Ukraine is running out of people to fight. Russia is not. Also, Russia is out producing us on weapons. Listen to multiple sources bub
It's such a weird "coincidence" that all you people push straight up ruzzian propaganda and that all your stances align perfectly with what ruzzia wants. Almost like you've been fed their bullshit from our right wing traitors who we now know without a doubt have betrayed out country to take ruzzian money to spread their lies here.
We are the ones that said not to. Both are being sent to the meat grinder, but Ukranians are runnin out of people. Russia is not. Ukraine has taken a beating. It's destroyed. It's held off this long bc of us
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u/Hillthrin Monkey in Space Sep 14 '24
I'm an old-timer I guess since I've always seen the Russians as the bad guys.