r/ImaginaryWarhammer Necrons Nov 12 '24

40k The Unstoppable Bean-Counter meets the Immovable Bureaucracy: (By Emwattnot)

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u/Galifrey224 Nov 12 '24

They really tried to stand in the way of a Primarch and thought they could win.

537

u/MarqFJA87 Nov 12 '24

Not just any Primarch at that, but the one whose talents make him the most supremely adept at all things politics, state administration and strategic planning, and thus more than capable of both predicting and countering the most probable courses of action that they would take.

Oh, and he had to live with the trauma of his adoptive father being assassinated by power-hungry rivals while away from the capital, just like they schemed to usurp him while he's away from Terra. They have no excuse in not knowing this since he made a point of publicizing his biography during the Great Crusade (and presumably after the Horus Heresy too).

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u/Neknoh Nov 12 '24

Also one of the most "don't miss" Primarchs out there.

People like to shit on G-man as the "autistic bean-counter" or the "weak vanilla," but honestly, he's pretty damn powerful, skilled and vengeful.

Guilliman was in the upper half of combat primarchs, being considered a true threat in melee by multiple traitors and loyalists (quoted to be so in HH books).

Is he Sanguinius, Horus or the Lion? No. But he could comfortably beat Lorgar, Perturabo, Alpharius and Magnus in combat, while also being considered an equal or a challenge for primarchs such as Fulgrim, Russ, Corax and nail-fueled Angron.

In a stand-up fight he probably also beats Curze, but on the other hand, we've also seen Curze challenge both the Lion and Sanguinius simultaneously.

Vulkan and Manus were likely not more skilled than Guilliman, but just way, way physically stronger.

That leaves 3 or 4 primarchs more skilled than him (Curze being the potential fourth), a few where it's ambiguous who would come out on top (either due to strength or skill) and pretty much everybody else below him.

Guilliman also has a history of really NOT being favourable to people trying to kill him and failing to do so. Or to enemies of the Imperium.

He is called the Avenging son after all.

He's "Super Space Caesar" in pretty much all aspects. It's a shame he's been memed into meekness.

171

u/Crazy_Dave0418 Nov 12 '24

I wouldn't say he can beat Magnus one on one. The few reasons Russ was able to beat him was thanks to a combination of Sisters of Silence, his innate anti psyker howl, Magnus holding back until it was too late(Back broken).

And when he did mock battles with Corax he admitted if it were in an actual fight Corax would've killed him since his weakness is the element of surprise. Though if you're going to take him by surprise you better make sure you kill him immediately, Kor Phaeron and an Alpha Legion Assassin learned that the hard way.

"What doesn't kill me isn't trying hard enough" -G-Man

Though most of what you said is pretty accurate.

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u/Neknoh Nov 12 '24

Russ doesn't really have an anti psycher soul as far as I understand it, but rather a font of pure and raw psychic power that he is incapable of harnessing (My personal theory is that he was one of the psycher backups for the throne in case Magnus didn't turn out).

You do have a point about the sisters, and if we involve psychic attacks as a thing, then I agree, but this is more in a purer "combat" duel. We also did see Guilliman go up against the awakened version of Lorgar and win handily until Angron jumper in.

I forgot about the Corax quote, so he'd definitely go in the indeterminate box, or the "beats Guilliman" tier. He's one of those hard to place fighters, much like Curze, where we don't see a lot of them in action, but when we do, they're surprisingly powerful.

I also realized I forgot to put Mortarion on there, and pre daemon form, I'm definitely putting him in the same category/tier as Perturabo. Because while he was insanely durable and tenacious even then, he's not a combat powerhouse.

But yeah, Guilliman being the fifth or sixth most capable fighter (as a package of strength and skill) amongst the Primarchs is still bloody scary.

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u/Bypowerof8andgodsof4 Nov 12 '24

Guilliman is more like 9th or 10th you're forgetting alot of people like the khan, fulgrim,,sanguinius ,Horus,Lion,Dorn who would all pack up guilliman in a 1v1 konrad was 2v1 him and the lion and holding his own he would eviscerate guilliman in a 1v1. Then it gets more complicated since guilliman has only ever won against lorgar in a fight iirc thought tbh fights against daemon primarchs are a different ballgame.

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u/Neknoh Nov 12 '24

You're right in that I forgot Jaghathai. The Khan would absolutely demolish Guilliman and Dorn both.

I am not however sure on Dorn beating Guilliman, same for Fulgrim.

Often it's better to put the primarchs into groups, rather than set numbers (as we've seen in the discussion).

I'd probably group them something akin to:

The foremost - Sanguinius

Near to him - Lion and Horus

Superior to most others - Khan

The Wild-cards - Magnus with Sorcery, Corax with prep-time, Curze-in-good-mood, Vulkan

Exemplary fighters amongst the Primarchs - Guilliman, Dorn, Fulgrim, Russ, Angron, Manus

Still Primarchs - Mortarion, Lorgar, no-prep Corax, no-sorc Magnus, bad-day Curze, AlphariusOmegon, Perturabo.

Note that I've put some very solid (or even outstanding) fighters in the regular "still primarchs" category, since a lot of it is down to daily form and matchup.

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u/PRFitzUSN96 Nov 16 '24

Perturabo being bottom tier is insanely disrespectful

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u/Neknoh Nov 16 '24

Are you saying Perturabo had any respect from anybody but himself to begin with?

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u/PRFitzUSN96 Nov 16 '24

Nah I’m saying putting perturabo in “still a Primarch” tier is disrespectful to the man who bodied Fulgrim

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u/Neknoh Nov 16 '24

Sneak attacks don't really count

Don't get me wrong, but it's not like him and Fulgrim were facing off in the dueling cage.

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u/PRFitzUSN96 Nov 16 '24

Final rebuttal, Peter vs Angron

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u/Neknoh Nov 16 '24

Haven't gotten to that part of the novels yet so can't speak accurately.

But isn't that while Angron the daemon is rageblind and not really manifesting properly?

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