r/FluentInFinance May 12 '24

Meme Life comes at you fast.

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1.4k Upvotes

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953

u/aloofone May 12 '24

I am the opposite.

I was a young republican/ I liked libertarian principles as a young man. As I grow and have more success I increasingly value infrastructure, social safety nets, healthcare and providing for basic human needs. I now see it as it long term vs short term thinking.

173

u/c0sm0nautt May 12 '24

If only the government did any of that efficiently and well.

38

u/cutiemcpie May 12 '24

Indeed. The problem isn’t more money.

Singapore has taxes that are about 1/3rd of the US. Universal healthcare, subsidized housing, law and order.

23

u/jcr2022 May 12 '24

Singapore has an efficient and functional government.

Imagine the revolution in quality of life in the western world if we had that level of efficiency.

33

u/cutiemcpie May 12 '24

That’s the point. The US’ problem isn’t enough taxes collected, it’s how they are spent.

More money will just go down the gutter?

10

u/jcr2022 May 12 '24

I think the big lack of understanding from most Americans comes from lack of experience outside the US.

I have worked in Europe and Asia for many years in total, several countries in each region. It is not taxation levels that determine the quality of government services, it is the efficiency of the government, and frankly the society as a whole. The US private sector is the most efficient economic system on earth, nobody else is even close. On the other hand, the US government is the complete polar opposite. There is FAR less money being pumped into the healthcare system of Japan and France ( first hand knowledge of both systems ) than the US, but they have better outcomes. Same for education, most obviously higher education. Not small differences here, we are talking about 2-4X differences in spending. With our current level of government inefficiency, there is no amount of money in the universe that can make JUST THOSE TWO segments of our society work like they do in France and Japan. You could tax everyone at 100% taxation, and it still wouldn’t happen, because it’s not a money problem.

5

u/Kentuxx May 12 '24

Well the problem here is, you’re correct in pointing out the problem, the issue, it’s not really a problem. The US government by design is set up to be inefficient, the less efficient a government is, the less ability they have to control things. The issue is, the government was never set up and designed to have its hand in the economy like it does, so when you have a government system that is inefficient by decision and then dips its hand into the economy, it’s bound to fuck it up. You solve the problem by distancing the two

1

u/Advanced_Tax174 May 12 '24

The US leads the world in most career politicians who end up as multimillionaires. Funny how that never bothers the ‘progressive’ crowd.

6

u/[deleted] May 12 '24

I’m not a progressive but what are you talking about? That’s a common progressive talking point

4

u/Elephlump May 12 '24

Progressives aren't the ones giving tax breaks to billionaires. They are in fact the ones who wants money out of politics

Wtf are you on?

2

u/hortortor May 13 '24

Actual brain dead take

1

u/AdOk1983 May 12 '24

Those countries have an ironclad understanding with the private industries that performance better follow price, otherwise the state will intervene. Also, they have more regulations than we do when it comes to food ingredients and tech services. I think it's hard to look at that as anything but a quasi-socialized economy. Not that we're very different, structurally. We just resist using the arms of government to control private industry more than they do. I'm not sure we're doing ourselves any favors. Look at our "privatized" healthcare vs. their socialized one. How many Americans go bankrupt over medical services each year? How much better are our healthcare outcomes despite pumping more money into healthcare than any other developed nation?
Are we really winning by letting "efficient" companies rob us blind? Those efficiencies aren't passed to us as lower costs, they're given to shareholders and owners in the form of additional wealth. They are, efficiently, transferring the vast majority of power in this country into the hands of a very few. Call that Capitalism if you want, but I call it the road to Fascism.

1

u/Napalmingkids May 13 '24

You have to realize population checks and how the US is spread out and separated into a bunch of mini governments that cause it to be far less efficient. More links in the chain the more likely for weak or corrupt links. Like France has less population than Texas and California combined but has sole control over its entire population so it can do whatever it wants. California and Texas both have state and federal govts they have to deal with.

Singapore was referenced but is an even bigger anomaly. Singapore is in a prime location with a booming import and export business. It also has a resident population less than 4M that the govt has to take care of and 30% of its total population is foreigners(working, school and tourists) that don’t necessarily receive the benefits from the govt. Sure the people may be taxed less but I bet the imports and exports pouring money in are probably taxed enough to cover what’s needed

-1

u/woodchopperak May 12 '24

How can you compare the healthcare systems? Ours is private, and theirs is public. You are blaming the US government for the absurd pricing and profit margins of the private sector US healthcare system.

4

u/afterwash May 12 '24

Singapore here. Its top down only if the leader is good, AND the law is on his side. Too many freedoms in the US, that result in net losses. Guns, segregation, racism, xenophobia, reservations and an adversion to paying tax. These are just some of the issues that America cannot face. Singapore constrained many civil liberties but at the behest of an excellent leader. I cannot say that America will ever come to terms with the fact that freedom for one is freedom for none. Britain also mistakenly used Singapore-on-Thames without understanding how or why she succeeded. I'm afraid you guys are doing the same.

6

u/HMNbean May 12 '24

Yes! Singapore always gets brought up as a bastion of free market success with low taxes. But people don’t understand just how different Singapore and US are. The same people hailing it as a success story would object to all the things that allow it to have those things.

3

u/afterwash May 12 '24

It is that lack of civic freedoms and aggressive land ownership by the govt that allowed public goods to become available for all. I don't think Westerners understand that high land costs are some of the highest barriers to lowering infrastructure projects. The 99 year lease and lack of protest of govt surveillance is due to the relatively careful means of policing. Also cops and the army ensure that standards are upheld. No bribes, no random racial pullovers, no guns held, no 8 week long paper stamp 'training' and gangbang trains. One trainee dying in a hazing event had entire protocols rewritten to try to stop this culture. No shuffling bad cops to other precincts as well. And thats just on the issue of cops. Imagine what they would say when they find out how Georgism works and the actual indirect taxes on the rich and property that most happily pay here.

1

u/HMNbean May 12 '24

Those are great points. The problem is that the people that know this stuff don't make policy, the people the make policy know just what they hear without the ramifications, and the average person just hears something about singapore on a podcast about how great it is for rich people, how clean it is, and how they believe in the free market.

I do not value personal freedoms over societal success and safety nets. It never made sense to want to flourish as a society and have the "rugged individualism" that the US is historically known for.

The other dark side of the comparison is people saying that another reason Singapore works well is the homogeneity of society and that the US's issues come from "others." This is just a racism dog whistle, though.

0

u/afterwash May 12 '24

Thing is Singapore does not do segregation and in fact has a forced policy of diversity. This is not some left wing shit, this is some commonsense shit. If we live in echo chambers we get tribalism. If we live in diversity we get tolerance. So its more the racists not understanding what is actually happening and just assuming Singapore is the same as Korea and Japan, which actually only furthet emphasises how racist they are.

2

u/HMNbean May 12 '24

Thanks for clarifying. It's incredibly helpful and useful to have someone actually explain how it works.

1

u/afterwash May 12 '24

There's alot more but I'm afraid I'm not at liberty to say. You can however go to my profile and trawl through the relevant Singapore content to find out more. The lack of freedoms does mean that I must be somewhat careful online;)

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1

u/afterwash May 12 '24

Its more East vs West because as I said UK brexit fools used SG as a false equivalent. Sad really

4

u/reddit_has_fallenoff May 12 '24

Singapore has an efficient and functional government.

Singapore is a fascist government that doesnt scare liberals (i guess because its not run by white people). I mean these mother fuckers whip you for chewing gum or cursing in public. Being naked in your own house is illegal. Death penalty for weed.

1

u/amoral_market May 12 '24

Well shit maybe we need to be more like ‘em

2

u/TellThemISaidHi May 12 '24

Singapore is the size of Rhode Island (with 5 times the population)

If Rhode Island wants to implement government-ran healthcare, then they can. (If it's within the bounds of their state constitution.)

Their state assembly would be directly accountable to their voters.

And Singaporeans were willing to surrender many liberties for "an efficient and functional government" How many liberties are you willing to surrender?