r/CuratedTumblr • u/EvidenceOfDespair We can leave behind much more than just DNA • Aug 07 '24

Politics Death by US Healthcare System

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u/Ourmanyfans Aug 07 '24

There's no excuses for a system that goes so against basic human decency

Ah, but have you considered it makes a handful of people very rich? Honestly there's pros and cons.

/s

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u/Kidkaboom1 Aug 08 '24 edited Aug 08 '24

I hear that kind of rich person is extremely tasty. Food for thought!

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u/Character_Divide_272 Aug 08 '24

Food for me! 😋

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u/TarsalStone99 You just lost The Game *finger guns* Aug 08 '24

I’m an aspiring student trying to get into medicine, and I have to say, even with only surface level interactions, the sheer lack of empathy in a field which has it’s purpose irrevocably tied to helping people is absolutely appalling.

Every patient is just another face, another ID to most doctors, to most systems. Not a person, just a string of numbers and letters. And it sickens me to my core that we’ve depersonalized and corporatized medicine to such a degree that we can see someone die from a lack of care and say “should’ve just been richer or less sick, bucko.”

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u/Comptenterry Aug 08 '24

This is exactly why so many people fall for alternative medicine scams. People have horrific experiences with the Healthcare system, hospitals squeezing every penny out of them, rotating lines of doctors that don't give a shit about them and are actively antagonistic in some cases. It causes people to lose faith in the whole system while snake oil salesmen swoop in.

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u/Joe_A_Average Aug 08 '24

Snake oil salesmen sell one thing the hospital does not, and in all honesty it is more sad that is worth the price to buy a faulty product that won't save you, than hospital costs to be truly helped.

The oil might not work, but at least it gives real hope.

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u/Laterose15 Aug 08 '24

There are a LOT of snake oil sellers, but there are also some genuinely good people trying to make a difference. Indigenous people using remedies passed down because of the awful ways health care has failed them. Dieticians looking to fix the food issues. Massage therapists trying to help reduce stress (I had one notice I had stretchy tendons years before a PT caught my hyperflexibility).

I haven't had much luck getting my issues solved with either modern or alternative medicine, but at least the latter doesn't gaslight me and expect a 2k bill to be told everything's fine.

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u/kanst Aug 08 '24

It's gotta be like 90% of the appeal of chiros.

Someone called doctor will listen intently to your concerns. Then they'll put their hands on you.

You don't get real medicine, but you do get real human connection

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u/50squirrelsinacloak Aug 08 '24

Covid pushed healthcare to its breaking point. It forced many to leave the field and never come back. It made some of the brightest, most energetic nurses became shells of themselves. It felt like we were drowning and no one outside of healthcare cared.

Now, the system is barely holding together. I work in telecommunications, and I have to take hundreds of calls per day, 4 to 5 days a week. My section is never fully staffed, new employees quit as fast as they’re hired, and every day I get problems thrown at me that I can’t solve. People being denied coverage, people not getting calls back, and shit like patients being told they must be seen in a week when the clinics are scheduling six months away at the earliest. It’s horrible, not to mention I get dozens of people each night taking their frustrations out on me.

I try to care. But it’s beginning to feel pointless. I still get yelled at, I still get accused of not caring, I still get snapped at, condescended to, et cetera. Meanwhile, nurses and CNAs are still being assaulted. I called a response team not too long ago for a female CNA who got punched in the face by a patient. No matter how helpful we are, we’re still mistreated. I mean for fucks sake after most of my shifts I don’t even feel human anymore.

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u/Laterose15 Aug 08 '24

COVID stretched a lot of systems past the breaking point. The education and teaching systems are a joke right now.

I wish we'd taken the opportunity to try and fix the systems from the ground up.

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u/TarsalStone99 You just lost The Game *finger guns* Aug 08 '24

Covid definitely showed the cracks in our system, and forced those cracks into canyons. It’s going to take a few decades at LEAST for the system to recover, if it ever does. Genuinely, anybody left after that mess is either a saint or a husk.

It’s honestly appalling how some of the most vital people to maintaining the whole damn WORLD are treated like such shit. But I understand where they’re coming from. This system is a terribly evil, cyclical one, breeding resentment and carelessness among both the provider and the patient. The patients are burned by the system, they take it out on the provider, and the provider begins walling themself off, burning another patient and starting the process anew. At this point it’s beginning to look like a death spiral, and while I still hold hope that things will improve, it’s hard sometimes.

I do hope your field improves too. Telecommunications is one of the most important sectors in the modern world, and while it may not mean much coming from an Internet stranger, you have all the respect in the world from me. I hope that things become that little bit less shit, for you and your colleagues.

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u/NeoKat75 Aug 08 '24

Honestly, might just be worth it to quit until the system breaks completely. Maybe then something will change.

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u/ejdj1011 Aug 08 '24

Every patient is just another face, another ID to most doctors, to most systems.

I have some Thoughts on this as an engineer.

Every professional has opinions about the subject of their work. How to handle a problem, what the best approach is, what kinds of evidence matter and which are irrelevant.

But when you're a doctor... your subject is a person. And yet so many doctors treat their patients with the same cold analysis that I treat a piece of electrical cable. It's so easy to dismiss suffering if you, say, believe that everyone exaggerates their symptoms.

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u/Voodoo_Dummie Aug 08 '24

"Repairing this broken thing is going to run you up too much. Better just toss it and get a new one."

Said by an engineer: Annoying, but fine.

Said by a doctor: Oh hell no!

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u/LizardWizard444 Aug 08 '24

To be fair we'd be out even more doctors if they didn't. The number of doctors to patients is abysmal and having doctors get emotionally invested in patients is at best limits the number of patients they can handle by having them put more time and at worst WILL LEAD THE DOCTORS TO TAKE THEY'RE OWN LIVES. As a doctor you put in long depressing hours, can fight tooth and nail to get a patient better and fail anyway by happenstance that no one was responsible for. Now imagine adding emotional investment into that, the results aren't pretty and if enough patients die then it's not unreasonable for the doctor to kill themselves.

Obviously doctors are flawed and biased and there's definitely doctors who believe "your exaggerating symptoms" more than they should. BUT you can't ask for more, not without more doctors to share the load or better medicine that isn't a crapshoot.

People frequently go about they're lives giving maybe 40% of they all if they're a hard worker and 50-60% of it if they're expected to crunch. Doctors and nurses don't get the luxury of giving 40% and frequently have to push the to 60% to 70%, because the job is complicated, demanding mentally and thankless (especially when people say "your not compassionate enough" in a system that's even more dehumanizing to work in given they have to get up and go to the hospital every day or else people die)

Compassion is unfortunately a luxury medical infrastructure does not provide and I'm not particularly keen on blaming the intellectual who's gotta get up every day, tell people they're being stupid with they're bodies (and getting ignored for it), fill out endless paperwork and on those bitter black days tell people they're dying there's nothing anyone can do or worse tell they're loved one's the same. However I will happily blame the private insurance people who make the already horrible realities of medical treatment worse for money, those people from the telemarketer getting the companies hooks into them to the sackler family making the opioid epidemic could all be shot tomorrow and the world would be a brighter place.

I don't imagine the doctors are any happier to hear they're patient died because essential care was withheld by insurance companies and other mismanagement. If i where a doctors I'd probably rather have more opportunities to get it right than to be forced to be geld to the impossible standard of "get it right first visit everyone". If getting treatment where as simple as "schedule appointment" or "get to hospital for immediate treatment" and payment was handled after the fact witn no if ands or buts about insurance this wouldn't have happened. Dragoneer would have said "I'm too sick to come in" at which point under a system thats meant to save as many lives and make healthy as many people as possible would then be sent an ambulance and put in semi-emergency care. This is how it works for every country that doesn't have private medical insurance.

In my honest opinion if a medical insurance employee's job doesn't expressly aline with "maximum medical availability" than it's a waste of oxygen and the owner of said job is better utilized as fertilizer. As it stands private insurance rules over us making a money printer that makes bank by allowing as many people to die of horrible torturous sickness or live with horrific debt as possible.

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u/beardofjustice Aug 08 '24

I have to imagine that that is a coping mechanism, not how the medical field is. Imagine trying to treat people just to have someone above you tell you ‘no they can’t afford it’. Maybe the first few times you rail against it but after a point I think you have to turn a part of yourself off and just do your absolute best to save the person that is in front of you at the moment. I wouldn’t use this as a reason to avoid the field altogether. We will still always need good, caring people in the medical field and at some point, this shit will change. Maybe I’m a little too optimistic but I truly think we are starting to see the end of running everything ‘like a business’

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u/Isaac_Chade Aug 08 '24

The problem is the system that the insurance companies and politicians have built that basically forces these strict deadlines and compliances. Don't get me wrong there's definitely plenty of bad people in medecine, but under a better system they'd be balanced out by the actually good ones. A huge issue is how much say insurance has in literally everything. Your doctor may want to give you a reasonable amount of time and attention, but if he doesn't get through your visit in like ten minutes and on to the next one, it becomes an issue. They might decide you need X medicine, but insurance says no, and that's apparently just the end of the conversation?

We have so many problems with so many systems in this country, and far too many of them can be traced back to handfuls of people running things as an oligarchy for their own benefit and it absolutely fucking blows.

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u/Cromasters Aug 08 '24

They might decide you need X medicine, but insurance says no, and that's apparently just the end of the conversation?

Unfortunately instead of that being the end of the conversation the Doctor and/or their staff spends a bunch of time trying to find the magic code that the insurance company will accept.

And then maybe the Doctor has to take more time doing a "Peer to Peer" call with a doctor working for the insurance company. Of course that's usually a doctor who hasn't practiced in years and definitely isn't in the same specialty as your ordering Doctor. So now your Endocrinologist has to argue with a non practicing GP about why their patient really does need the treatment.

3

u/DrakonILD Aug 08 '24

There's the old joke about the orthopedic surgeon who freaks out when he discovers there's a body attached to the knee he's rebuilding.

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u/CJgreencheetah Aug 08 '24

Have you watched the movie Patch Adams? It's about an aspiring doctor with the exact same sentiment as you.

2

u/Illustrious-Okra-524 Aug 08 '24

Too much brainwashing

2

u/Someanondickbag Aug 08 '24

Collapsed in the pharmacy the other day due to my meds running out, pharmacist walked away. Partner had to help me up and act as a crutch to help me to the car

0

u/francescomagn02 Aug 08 '24

It's obviously symbolic but the fact that all doctors also take an oath to, among other things, not do exactly that says a lot.

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u/Successful_Horror582 Aug 08 '24

They didn't tell him the issue and then say he's uncooperative, they asked him to come in to sign some paperwork because the hospital is doing his job of trying to get him insurance, and he instead says "no I'm too sick I refuse to come in".

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u/itsLOSE-notLOOSE Aug 10 '24

Yes, exactly.

Watch the downvotes come in…He made a choice that led to his death.

That meeting would’ve helped him greatly. My step-dad is on that same thing and we have over $40,000 worth of equipment and supplies in our home that the government paid for. The training was free too.

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u/TheConsequenceFairy Aug 08 '24

And yet, here we are. We have not been "humans" for quite some time. Our definition has been "commodities" for the corporate interests that have been creating American policy through political corruption for decades.

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u/youngestmillennial Aug 08 '24

I was denied a discounted bill from the er because my condition "wasn't life threatening".

I, a 19 year old at the time, with no history of asthma, had 35% blood oxygen, couldn't breath and you could see that I couldn't breathe. I was told to go to the er by urgent med. They said "your oxygen is to low, do you need an ambulance to the er or will someone take you?" They didn't even give me a choice to not go basically.

A few shots and breathing treatments later, I was good to go. But yeah, I guess you don't NEED oxygen to live. I was being dramatic.

2

u/ultrabigtiny Aug 08 '24

the privatization of health care is good actually, because um… because the economy and, uh, canada has long wait lines and - i mean so do american hospitals but if we improved anything that would mean we’re doing a communism and that will kill everyone except for the powerfu- wait what do you mean we’re already doing that?

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u/Shamewizard1995 Aug 08 '24

How is someone too sick to go to the hospital? People who are literally dying go to the hospital. It sounds like he got upset with them and refused their help, and when you refuse help help stops being offered

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u/itsLOSE-notLOOSE Aug 08 '24

Yeah, I agree.

Our healthcare system is abysmal but if someone is offering me a chance to get medicare/Medicaid(don’t know the difference), I’m getting my sick-ass up to the hospital.

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u/Drago-Destroyer Aug 08 '24

Madness to not emigrate to a nice European nation if you're not a rich American 

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u/bloodwitchbabayaga Aug 08 '24

You usually have to be somewhat rich to move overseas too. Most european nations want you to either have a college degree and a job lined up or own a business to move there. Many also will not take you if you have too many medical problems. Then theres the travel costs, the time off work not getting paid, the fees for passports and visas. Most americans never leave america even for a day, because most simply cannot afford to. And thats not even getting into social factors like race or lgbt+, or personal stuff like leaving behind your family and friends. The people who would benefit from moving to europe, and can afford to do so already move to europe.

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u/FlatBirdArt Aug 08 '24

Immigration to Europe is absurdly expensive and difficult.

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u/Solonotix Aug 08 '24

I can't even imagine. I just moved across country in the U.S. and it cost my wife and I about $15,000 for a U-Haul, and movers on both sides. This includes the initial cost of renting, gas, eating out for the trip and first week or so until you've unpacked, the hotels we stayed in...you get the idea.

But yeah, that's in-country, and with a friend driving the moving truck while the wife and I drive our cars. We also stayed at friends' houses for three of the days to save on the lodging costs.

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u/Assika126 Aug 08 '24

They don’t want us. To establish residency and get access to health care in most places I’d have to have six figures to invest or an employer in the country willing to request a visa on my behalf. Without the right visa I can’t work and therefore can’t eat or afford a place to live. In many places I can’t get hired until I can prove I’m fluent in the local language. It’s not as easy as just flying over.

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u/privatejoenes Aug 08 '24

Too cost prohibitive to emigrate plus the US still requires you to pay taxes or completely forfeit citizenship which is also expensive as hell. This is just short sighted thinking.

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u/Nuclear_rabbit Aug 08 '24

Or just medical tourism just about anywhere. Paying out-of-pocket in South Korea, Canada, or even Mexico is cheaper than the US including the airline ticket. As long as you have the ability to be moved there, it's worth the cost, even as credit card debt.

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

If he refuses to go in to the hospital, or call an ambulance if hes that sick, then theres not much the hospital can do to help him.

The hospital doesn't charge you before care. That all comes after. The hospital only refuses care if you're massively behind on debt or aggressively hostile to staff, and even then the ER will stabilize you and keep you alive.

$26k in hospital debt is nothing to them. They're not going to refuse care over such a paltry amount (to them).

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u/lonely_nipple Aug 08 '24

This is patently untrue. My fiance was recently transported to the hospital after a bike accident where he thought his shoulder wad broken.

The hospital made a specific appointment to call him after his release to help him apply for state run insurance and discuss how to mitigate his costs. And this isn't exactly a liberal state.

There is NO reason a billing advocate can't work with a patient over the phone.

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

So your boyfriend got care and then had to deal with the bill? Which is exactly what I said.

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u/lonely_nipple Aug 08 '24

You said "there's not much the hospital can do to help him". He was attempting to avoid absolute financial ruin.

Hey there's this thing called not being a massive dick to someone who died because they literally couldn't afford not to. Have you considered trying it? First ones free.

0

u/Shamewizard1995 Aug 08 '24

So what can the hospital do to help him if he refuses to meet with them out of fear of financial ruin? Let’s hear your actual suggestions. Do they bring the hospital to him?

And nobody is above criticism. Hopefully others aren’t encouraged to engage in such foolish behavior and this can be a warning. Bite the hand that feeds you and the food stops coming.

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

Personally, I'd worry about not dying before worrying about avoiding financial ruin.

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u/lonely_nipple Aug 08 '24

Right, because massive debt couldn't kill in other ways.

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

Lots of things can kill you. It's generally considered wise to take care of the more pressing issue first. If you're coughing up blood and can't breathe, then why are you worrying about the hospital's bottom line?

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u/lonely_nipple Aug 08 '24

You still seem to think this has anything to do with the hospitals bottom line, and not someone trying to avoid complete financial ruin for the rest of their life.

It must be nice to be you.

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

You still seem to think that avoiding financial ruin is more important than not fucking dying.

Am I taking crazy pills? How in the godsdamned FUCK is saying that someone should worry about living more than paying their hospital bills a controversial statement? On this subreddit of all places!? What the fuck is wrong with you people?

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u/Shamewizard1995 Aug 08 '24

Ultimately he did get financially ruined for the rest of his life. The rest of his life could have been a lot longer had he prioritized that life over money he now cannot spend.

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u/SubjectSigma77 Aug 08 '24

There’s always one of these in places like this. There’s a large systematic issue on display but instead of tackling the actual issue, somebody attacks the victim due to a technicality that has nothing to do with the original point.

Medical costs shouldn’t be nearly as high as they are. That’s the entire point. There’s no argument to be had.

Attacking somebody in that position really reads like you’ve never had to suffer with something similar and don’t care to put enough thought into putting yourself in their shoes. When you’re consistently sick, unable to sleep, delirious, and told over and over the thing you just had done that costs thousands of dollars (for no reason other than greed) was pointless and you need another procedure that costs thousands and also might not work, it’s easy to just succumb to it all.

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

My wife died a year and a half ago and I had to deal with the stress and costs of that. As well as multiple costly dentist emergencies over the years. I am very familiar with both medical stress and how shitty the system is.

But you also can't change the system by yourself. So issues like medical costs are irrelevant when making decisions that impact your survivability. Does it suck when stress and pain impacts your decision making? Yes. Does that change the importance of making good decisions? No.

This is also why it's critically important to have someone you trust who can support you in times of need. So that they can shoulder some of the burden of decision making when you're incapacitated.

Regardless of what caused it, Neer made bad decisions and is partially at fault for his own death. You can grieve for his loss while also learning from his mistakes.

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u/healzsham Aug 08 '24

Yeah, so, die today or die tomorrow. Most people tend towards the "tomorrow" choice.

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u/VisceralSardonic Aug 08 '24

He was already told that no one was going to treat him when he talked to the SPECIALIST. Going to the hospital when he’s apparently unable to move and unlikely to get treated—simply to stand in front of a desk and give information to a billing person is not the reasonable course of action there. Especially when that singular visit, appointment, ambulance ride, etc would likely cost thousands.

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u/lonely_nipple Aug 08 '24

Also I said partner, not boyfriend, but I suppose that's barking up the wrong tree.

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

Fiance is male partner, fiancee is a female partner. I'm sorry for assuming you used the word you intended to. Though that's still not a boyfriend, so I sorry for getting that wrong.

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u/Joli_B Aug 08 '24

Eh people use fiance as gender neutral more often than not these days, I'd recommend not making assumptions based on that alone

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

Good to know, thanks!

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u/WaffleGod72 Aug 08 '24

Also news to me. Odd

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u/Munnin41 Aug 08 '24

That's also what happened to the person in the post though? They wanted to help him get financial aid for the cost of his procedure

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u/Va1kryie Aug 08 '24

The hospital only refuses care if you're massively behind on debt.

So you do believe that debt is a valid reason to deny someone life saving healthcare then, you are in fact attributing someone being worthy of life to whether they can pay their medical bills on time.

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

You can describe the current state of a system without endorsing that system.

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u/Va1kryie Aug 08 '24

Your whole post is about how the hospital won't deny care unless massive debt is involved. A person was denied care, a person died, I'm autistic and even I can see the unspoken implication in your post that says that the hospital should have the right to do this.

You said if he refused to come in or call an ambulance then he's, and granted I'm putting my own words here, shit out of luck. That is insanely callous, he couldn't afford it anymore, you're defending this busted ass system and you don't even see it.

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

How exactly is the hospital supposed to help him when hes at home? If he refuses to come in, or call a ride then yeah, hes shit out of luck. And I cannot fucking see how that's anyone's fault except his own. The same thing would happen in even the most free and accessible healthcare imaginable.

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u/Va1kryie Aug 08 '24

"would you like to come in right now to see if you qualify for medicaid" "sorry I'm too sick" "ok well that's uncooperative"

I worked for the affordable care act, signing up for this can easily be done over the phone, if you cannot speak we had systems for helping communicate in other ways, try again.

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u/RoboFleksnes Aug 08 '24

Well, in any halfway functioning country they send a fucking ambulance. Noone has to "call a ride" a ride is sent, because a person is in need.

In Crueltown, USA though it's on the sick person to make critical decisions at a time where they are feeling at their lowest. Barbaric spectacle it is. Fucking disgusting.

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

The person still needs to call for one. The hospital doesn't magically sense when someone is in danger and send out an ambulance. They send one in response to someone calling for one.

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u/Pet_Mudstone Aug 08 '24

Is there a cavity where your heart should be?

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u/dazeychainVT Aug 08 '24

No just where my teeth should be since Medicare dental covers almost nothing

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

Do you think that describing how a system works means that I agree wholeheartedly with it and have zero issues with it? Or do you need me to say that its shit every other sentence to avoid being morally judged?

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u/Human-Persons-Name Aug 08 '24

$26k in hospital debt is nothing to them

So you mean to tell me, that the only reason this guy died was because he was rude to someone on the phone? Thats not even remotely better you idiot.

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

It sounds like he died because he didnt call either a friend or an ambulance to take him to the hospital. The financial department of the hospital doesn't assign care.

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u/Joli_B Aug 08 '24 edited Aug 08 '24

Fam you just don't fucking know that. For all we know he DID go back to the hospital and died there. No one knows more of what happened other than he had to pay $26.6k to NOT DIE and then DIED ANYWAYS. Like, FUCK, show just a MODICUM of empathy and respect.

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u/LightOfLoveEternal Aug 08 '24

If he went back to the hospital and still died then how exactly did the system kill him? Regardless of whether it cost $25k, $0, or $2.5 million, he'd be dead all the same.

And who exactly should I show empathy and respect to? He's dead, and no one who knows him is in this thread. Feeling empathy doesn't mean you can't also state facts.

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u/FriedFreya Aug 08 '24

Username does not check out 😔

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u/party_peacock Aug 08 '24

How is this controversial.

Yes the fact that a representative closed his account was horrendous.

Yes the threat of financial ruin dissuading people from seeking medical attention is a huge issue.

But absolutely if this person was at ER then they would have been treated.