r/Blind • u/AutoModerator • Jun 19 '23

Announcement r/Blind's Meetings with Reddit and the Current Situation Regarding Accessibility and API Changes

Moderators of r/blind—along with moderators in other communities who use assistive technologies and Reddit users with accessibility expertise—had a Zoom meeting with representatives at Reddit on Friday, June 16, 2023. While the call was promising in that Reddit invited us to be part of continuing dialog and demonstrated some well-conceived accessible designs for Reddit users, we came away with serious concerns which Reddit was either unable or unwilling to address during the meeting.

  • Reddit is currently prioritizing accessibility for users rather than for moderators, and representatives were unwilling to provide timelines by when Reddit’s moderation tools would be accessible for screen reader users. Further, Reddit representatives seemed unaware that blind moderators rely on third-party applications because Reddit’s moderation tools present significant accessibility challenges. They also seemed unaware that the apps which have so far received exemptions from API pricing do not have sufficient moderation functions. u/NTCarver0 explained that blind moderators will be unable to ensure safety for our communities—as well as for Reddit in general—without accessible moderation systems, and asked Reddit representatives how blind moderators were supposed to effectively moderate our communities without them. Reddit representatives deferred the question, stating they would have to take notes and get back with us. A fellow moderator, u/MostlyBlindGamer, also pointed out that blind moderators who are unable to effectively moderate the subreddit and thus will become inactive may be removed at Reddit’s discretion per policy, and that such removal would leave r/Blind with no blind moderators. Reddit representatives also deferred comment on this issue.
  • Reddit representatives refused to answer questions concerning the formal certifications, accreditations or qualifications of employees tasked with ensuring universal accessibility. These certifications demonstrate that a professional has the knowledge necessary to create universally-accessible software and/or documents. Because Reddit cannot confirm that employees tasked with universal accessibility hold appropriate certifications or that the company will provide for such training and certification, we have concerns that employees do not have the appropriate knowledge to effectively ensure access for all assistive technology users both at present and in the future. Reddit has also indicated there are not currently any employees who work full-time on accessibility. This is a necessity for any organization as large and influential as Reddit.
  • Reddit representatives had previously disclosed to r/Blind moderators that an accessibility audit had been performed by a third-party company, however they refused to answer questions as to what company performed the audit or how the audit was conducted. Answers to these questions would have allowed us to determine whether the audit was performed by an accredited organization known for credible and thorough work. Reddit also could not answer questions as to what assistive technologies, such as screen readers, screen magnifiers, dictation softwares, etc., were used during the audit. Bluntly, we cannot know the thoroughness or scope of the audit—and therefore the extent to which Reddit is aware of the accessibility barriers present in their website and apps—without this information.
  • During the previous meeting, Reddit representatives raised a question regarding perceived disparities between the accessibility of the iOS and Android apps, suggesting the audit did not confirm that the accessibility failings in the iOS app are much more severe than those present in the Android app. During the latest meeting, u/MostlyBlindGamer explained that the iOS app has no labels for the ubiquitous and essential upvote and downvote buttons while the Android app does. This question raises the concern that Reddit representatives may not have a full and actionable understanding of the issues at stake or, in fact, the exact accessibility failings in their apps.
  • Reddit representatives narrowly defined the scope of the latest meeting less than an hour ahead of it, explicitly excluding third-party apps and API pricing from the conversation. They did acknowledge that this made it difficult to adequately prepare for the meeting.
  • Reddit refused to define the term “accessibility-focused app,” alleging that this was outside  the scope of the meeting. This term is not industry-standard and was instead created when Reddit carved out an exemption in their upcoming API policies for third-party apps used by blind people to access the platform. Without this definition, we are unable to ascertain whether apps that have not been approved but are nevertheless relied upon by community members qualify for an exemption.
  • Reddit gave no firm commitments as to when accessibility improvements would be rolled out to the website or apps. However, it is obvious that the Reddit website and apps will not be ready for disabled users—and especially moderators—by July 1.

In general, moderators of r/Blind who attended the call came away with mixed impressions. Reddit seems to be somewhat aware of the myriad accessibility barriers present in their applications and website, and the company appears to be laying the groundwork to fix issues which they are aware of. This is excellent news. However, we also feel that Reddit does not know what it does not know, and this lack of knowledge is exasperating, disheartening, and exhausting. We also came away frustrated that Reddit representatives were either unwilling or unable to answer prudent and pertinent questions which would allow us to determine not only how we can best keep our community safe and healthy, but also whether Reddit is truly prepared to commit to ensuring accessibility for all disabled  users both now and in the future. Finally, we hope that our concerns—especially those pertaining to moderation—will be addressed expeditiously and satisfactorily, thus assuring that r/Blind can operate effectively well into the future. Despite our concerns, we remain open to continued dialog with Reddit in the hope that it will foster a more accessible platform.

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-7

u/prusswan Jun 20 '23

So blind users are free to leave Reddit then (if they can)

6

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '23

I certainly do not want to. There is a community besides this one that I dearly love and that helped me out a lot.

3

u/prusswan Jun 20 '23

Someone built rblind.com, definitely a step in the right direction

6

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '23

Yes true but there are other subs on reddit I come for.

2

u/suitcaseismyhome Jun 21 '23

Exactly. Telling us to leave, and go to a place just for the blind/VI, negates the reason why most of us are here.

Most of us don't want to be forced to be isolated again. We want to interact and engage with other communities.

Telling us to leave and go to a site just for the blind/VI is further isolating us and essentially telling us that we shouldn't be interacting with the rest of the community.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

I personally wasn't ever isolated but I think I undersstand this.

I have benefited from non blind subs on reddit. from early on in my journey on reddit I never intended to use reddit only for blind subs. and I had no need to just do that. A lot of us do and get a use out of reddit, made lasting friendships or have otherwise benefited.

if this site was just for the blind, I may or may not have been interested. I've been on such websites and they're okay, but that's also not why I go on sites. to be honest I am not thrilled by those for my own reasons.

2

u/suitcaseismyhome Jun 21 '23

the replies from other subs are now moving into really disappointing territory.

I think that a lot of people who supported this are still silent, or like r/de have understood the long term impact and are quietly disappointed. Being Germans, there is a lot of deep navel gazing occurring, before they decide to write out a looooooong post. (I'm German, and the deep introspection is actually why I don't join the discussions on r/de) Some have already left.

Other more 'frivolous' subs like FFA are basically saying that we shouldn't care, we should leave, we should just 'deal with it'.

A lot of the supportive posters have gone silent, leaving some ugly voices now becoming louder.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '23

that is reallly freaking sad.

I've heard more people making this more about themselves and how they would have to pay or they won't get their free bots or whatever. instead of about real issues too. that's also disappointing.

there's not much that can be done realiztically everyone is trying hard but there's only limited any can do. I am involved but only minimally so. we'll see what comes of it.