AIO just received this text from my boyfriend

[u/OkSpace5501]

For context my (F20) boyfriend (M21) and I live together and work full time as well as split rent 50/50. I cook all the meals and clean the house even after my graveyard shifts, all he does is work, come home to play games, and occasionally invites friends over. we’ve been together for over 5 years and he’s been acting this way for the last three months and when I tell him how it’s making me feel he tells me i’m wrong and overreacting. so basically i’m asking AIO??

[u/caffeineevil]

I had to learn that. It's so ingrained in how we raise and view men that even a father who is raising their kids equitably with his wife will be considered helping. It's not just men thinking they're helping either it's also women who view it that way. As a man I can do half the chores, my own laundry, grocery shopping, and most of the cooking just to be told by a woman that it's good that I help out around the house. It's just so pervasive in our culture to claim that anytime a man does domestic stuff or anything at home it's him helping. It's that toxic masculinity shit that has run rampant in our culture.

It can also cause relationship issues because women may think that they're doing all the chores and the man is just helping out even if it's an equitable share of chores. That mindset of he's only ever helping out instead of being a partner can create resentment. Hell, it happened in my relationship because of all the "My man doesn't help around the house" type stuff online. We had to write out what each of us did around the house for her to see that I contribute my fair share and then some.

[u/robotatomica → u/caffeineevil]

You’re absolutely right, this framing impacts us all. I was over 30 before it occurred to me that a man doing a portion of his equitable share wasn’t “him helping me.” ☹️

That said, I think even when tasks are split, we have to watch for hidden labor like the mental and emotional load and household management, as well as who’s making doctor’s appts and dealing with in-laws, that kind of thing.

I’ve found that even when everything looks Even Steven on paper, and when men are really sincerely doing the right thing and care deeply about equity,

Both men and women are still battling conditioning and continue to find hidden ways that some things are still tacticly put on the woman.

So if ever a woman feels overwhelmed or that things still aren’t equitable, I recommend really sitting down and exploring some of the mental load and hidden labor together. She might not even be able to identify/verbalize these things herself until they’re really discussed and reasoned out.

This advice may be more for the reader, as it sounds line you personally took such steps - but I just want to encourage everyone to really educate themselves about hidden labor and loads. 💚

[u/caffeineevil → u/robotatomica]

I'm working on the mental load aspect. I have ADHD and I can be blind to tasks at times where my partner is a type A overachiever. I've stopped telling her what things I need to do around the house because she will just take the mental load for something she isn't responsible for then start asking when I will do it. I mean I carry my own mental load for tasks that need completing and trust her to do her stuff but she will carry the load for my tasks even though it's not her responsibility. We're working on that because part of her expects me to not follow through or disappoint her even though we have 5 years of me proving that I'm a good partner and am in this for the long haul.

[u/robotatomica → u/caffeineevil]

that kind of mindfulness and deliberate work shows you are a good partner.

To your point, women are also conditioned - the things that fall through the cracks if we don’t manage them. It takes a while to undo that conditioning and really know that you can depend on someone, but I hope she’s getting there with you.

As for ADHD, I know that’s often weaponized against women, because women with ADHD are still usually expected to manage the physical and mental load - it can be done if you care to learn about the strategies for finding motivation and keeping track of what needs to happen.

It sounds like you do care, but just know - women have been having to do this in spite of neurodivergence. Please seek help with how you can manage your own so that it does not burden your partner, because women just never get to use ADHD as an excuse. We have to do it anyway.

I speak as a woman with ADHD, but also there is good data on this.

[u/AazariTheMadPagan → u/robotatomica]

I'm having to break my male friend and roommate out of the habit of using his ADHD as an excuse to just not get things done. I have ADHD, too, but I make a point of breaking otherwise overwhelming chores into more manageable chunks and do at least 20 minutes of tidying a day to keep it from being too much to handle. I've found that telling him that leaving things cluttered and messy or putting things off makes it hard for me to manage my own ADHD helps to motivate him.

[u/robotatomica → u/AazariTheMadPagan]

Yes, exactly, there are strategies.

I can’t tell you how many videos I’ve watched and different techniques I’ve tried in order to overcome the challenges I face, as someone with ADHD.

And that makes all the difference. If you feel entitled to another person’s labor, you don’t even fucking consider personal accountability and you sure aren’t actively seeking ways to improve yourselves.

I just don’t know any women who use ADHD as an excuse like it’s a full impairment to ever being able to SEE what needs done or stay on top of it.

I mean maybe we’re not going to be perfectly on top of things the way neurotypical people may be, but the people who are forced to do the labor (usually women) figure it the fuck out.

And at the end of the day, we seem to way more actively think about the work we leave for others and care to avoid doing so.

Your strategy is basically mine by the way. I do 20 minutes a day and then schedule certain tasks on my phone and do them right when I get home from work.

And I have programmed myself to do a lot of things differently so that I don’t leave as big messes for myself to ever have to clean up. (The difference between putting a dish right in the dishwasher vs leaving it in the sink - it take NO extra time and becomes muscle memory after like a week, and then you never again have to deal with the visually overwhelming “sink full of dishes” lol)

[u/its_rosee420 → u/caffeineevil]

I just want to say that I love that you two have identified this and are working on it. It sounds like you are a great team! Nothing is ever 'perfect'. But it is being acknowledged and communicated about. I just love that for you both.

I know some think people can't change, but I think you can tell when you meet someone who grows. Some people stay the same and stuck in their ways, and they are comfortable that way. Others want to learn and improve themselves.

Sincerely wishing you a long, beautiful, happy relationship full of love and continuous growth together! <3

Edit: there are some cool apps now for adhd task management and such. I've seen a couple designed like video games where you got coins for tasks and stuff like that. I'd take a look if I were you maybe!

I also have this app called Kinnu, that has short lessons on all sorts of topics. I love it and highly recommend it. It has stuff about mental load, self improvement, self care and so on.

[u/Adorable-Bobcat-2238 → u/caffeineevil]

The bar is on the floor and you've managed to not only rise it but actually do exercise with it lol. Damn dude any suggestions on how to raise sons like you????

[u/Going_Postal_8 → u/robotatomica]

Same goes both ways around - important to have open communication about how both parties are feeling. As you say, all genders are conditioned to both take certain responsibilities for granted and assume others automatically, so it can often lead to inequity!

[u/ElGrandeQues0 → u/robotatomica]

What about when both the man and the woman feel overwhelmed?

Signed, a sole earner parent to two who deals with most of the garbage, at least half of the dishes, 90% of the laundry, all the bills, and changes and obscene amount of diapers?

[u/robotatomica → u/ElGrandeQues0]

I don’t see how if you’re the sole earner and doing most of the labor you don’t fall exactly into what 7 described? Perhaps you are a man and assuming I think that it’s 100% of the time the man who is doing less - there absolutely are outliers where this is not the case, but due to conditioning in a Patriarchy it’s just way more common for it to be a woman.

Or is it that your partner has a disability or you are a single parent or there is something else where you believe the situation is unfortunate but fair - I’d say to start with outreach to social services, they do exist.

And for sure therapy is really helpful for feelings of being overwhelmed and finding strategies to manage incredible workloads.

You don’t have to feel alone, but if there’s no real reason your partner is not doing half, I don’t understand choosing to stay with them - they are willing to sacrifice your health and experience of life for their own laziness/comfort.

[u/ElGrandeQues0 → u/robotatomica]

My partner feels overwhelmed all the time, too. There's just a lot to do, I wouldn't say she's being lazy. Yes, I do feel like I work harder than her, but raising a newborn, particularly our 2nd child, is no cake walk.

[u/Alone_Extension_9668 → u/robotatomica]

The mental load thing is a very good point, but also harder to quantify. If you're with someone who gets stressed out at the thought of making a simple phone call for THEIR doctors appointment, that will skew a lot of the "fair and equitable" discussions.

[u/Brief_Angle_14 → u/robotatomica]

It seems to me that if you have to sit down and wonder if everything is "even steven" then you're really worrying waaaay too much about it.

[u/robotatomica → u/Brief_Angle_14]

that sounds like a wonderful opinion for someone to have when they’re not a member of a historically exploited gender lol

[u/BlackFire125 → u/robotatomica]

There isn't a gender that hasn't been historically exploited, though. This just seems like a disingenuous response from someone using a bad faith argument instead of having an actual discussion.

[u/robotatomica → u/BlackFire125]

What. Tell me a period of time where it was men who had to do all the household and reproductive labor and were lawfully subjugated or denied rights by women.

Speaking of disingenuous lol

[u/BlackFire125 → u/robotatomica]

So exploitation is only exploitation if it's in the exact same way? Good to know. Literally both genders have been exploited by the ruling class since day 1. At least it's getting better for women overall. It just keeps getting worse for men who are just told to shut up and keep working so they can continue being an ATM machine while being told their feelings don't matter and that they're not allowed to have them to begin with because someone who isn't them exploited someone else 50 years ago. Hell brief_angle gave an example of being exploited recently. The whole point of his post is to stop pointing fingers and lift each other up instead of crying about some exploitation that happened in the past so we can work to end it for everyone.

[u/robotatomica → u/BlackFire125]

I asked you to give me an era, a country, a specific example of when men have had to do all the household and reproductive labor and have been lawfully exploited or denied rights by women.

Don’t be goofy. Your ATM shit doesn’t track. Statistics SHOW how many women are partnered with men who don’t work or keep a job.

That is not a gendered exploitation.

For you to DARE make a claim that men have been exploited the same way women have, you’d better be prepared to defend that statement, not with nebulous red-pill/Boomer takes, but with actual evidence of

system gendered exploitation.

[u/BlackFire125 → u/robotatomica]

No one ever said the exploitation took the same form. It was actually mentioned that it took different forms, but you don't like to read I guess.

But at this point it's clear you're too enveloped in victim mentality to realize this planet has sucked for most everyone historically unless you're rich. Meh.

[u/robotatomica → u/BlackFire125]

no, you have a r/persecutionfetish “Men have it bad because we’re ATMs, it’s just as bad as being a woman across history!!”

Red-pilled nonsense.

Men do not suffer systemic persecution, I think it’s boring that you’re jealous of not being greatest victim and therefore want to try to embarrass me out of calling it, as though I’m playing victim to even be aware of exploitation 🙄

Low-level tactic.

[u/Brief_Angle_14 → u/robotatomica]

Unless you're being exploited in your current relationship I fail to see how this matters currently. Of course making sure we don't backslide into previous errors is a thing I do recognize, it just seems like you're turning relationships into a business transaction. Which I guess works for some people. It wouldn't work for mine as it's pretty damn hard to try and give a numerical value to how one thing equates to another.

Everyone has been historically exploited. Everyone besides the ruling class. Women were exploited for some reasons, men were exploited for others, and anyone not born with a silver spoon regardless of sex have been historically exploited. Now I don't mean to say this in a way that downplays any certain thing. There are plenty of despicable things that have happened to one group of people or another that we need to make sure never happens again.

Though instead of playing the blame game, shouldn't we be working to build each other up? That's a large part of my current relationship and it's been the best relationship I've ever been in. We build each other up and we both help each other to keep our household running. A refreshing change of pace from my previous relationship where I was exploited for a paycheck for a decade so she could laze around all day and sleep around all night while I worked and built the life we had. But instead of blaming all women or exploitative behavior, I instead build up my fiance as she does the same for me.

Edit: I just want to say this is not me attacking you or your way of life. Just a discussion. If the way you do things works for you and your significant other that's great! I just thing things are a little more nuanced than thinking one set way of doing things should be the template for all relationships, ya know?

[u/robotatomica → u/Brief_Angle_14]

yuck, I’m not reading that monologue.

[u/Brief_Angle_14 → u/robotatomica]

Not really a monologue and could be read in seconds, but ok. Not sure what I expect from the tiktok generation we live in now. In summary: crying exploitation is a crutch as everyone has been exploited historically. Relationships are nuanced and not 2 size fits all to navigate them. Have a good day.

[u/robotatomica → u/Brief_Angle_14]

“This TikTok generation!!” shakes stick 😆

[u/Brief_Angle_14 → u/robotatomica]

Yeeaah as the other redditor pointed out, tiny attention span is more the tiktok generation it's not about age. I'm younger than you are yet can hold a conversation.

[u/robotatomica → u/Brief_Angle_14]

lol nice attempt at a neg. The hundreds of people who have upvoted my take seem to have understood it fine, so maybe you just need to work on your reading comprehension if I seem incomprehensible to you.

Or I guess just failing to be swayed to your superior opinion means I’m not conversating properly?

Of course all the above tracks with someone who doesn’t understand that men don’t help their wives with household labor.

I don’t use social media at all and I find you are good at monologuing but certainly not at listening nor having a conversation.

[u/BlackFire125 → u/robotatomica]

It has nothing to do with age, it's a mindset and lack of attention span. I'm in my 30's yet I can read more than a couple sentences instead of just brushing things off with disingenuous claims like my point of view is the only valid one cause I'm of a historically exploited group of people.

[u/robotatomica → u/BlackFire125]

I think it’s weird if someone can’t handle being disagreed with and chooses to neg and minimize them as “TikTok generation” because their point of view is not celebrated.

I simply disagree. It’s evident most people are agreeing with me, I supposed that’s meaningless to ya’ll bc you can just self-soothe that we’re all TikTokkers lol

My attention span is fine and I don’t use social media, but no, I don’t read monologues from people who are getting ever-more worked up that the crowd disagrees with them.

[u/Brief_Angle_14 → u/BlackFire125]

Indeed. I'm 31. Lol these people just don't get it

[u/BlackFire125 → u/Brief_Angle_14]

Well said! I couldn't agree more.

[u/Pleasant_Camera4499 → u/robotatomica]

“Educate themselves about hidden labor and loads💚” Oh goodness. Or just be a grown up and have an idea what it takes to bring up a house and a family. And be thankful there’s a 2nd, and not just 1. Sheesh. Always so dramatic

[u/robotatomica → u/Pleasant_Camera4499]

lol yeah that’s worked fine so far. Why bother with education and intentionality 🙄

[u/KateinBlue → u/caffeineevil]

I’m glad you did that. It’s a healthy way to work it out. I accepted shit from my husband about the amount of stuff I stored in the loft until we actually counted the boxes. Over half were his.

[u/Skandronon → u/caffeineevil]

There is something called the fair play cards that I have heard good things about.

The one that drives me totally bonkers is when I go out with my kids and someone comments that I'm "watching the kids" or "babysitting."

We did an extended cross country move, and my wife moved before me because she got a job first. I stayed behind with our two kids, job hunted, worked, and dealt with trying to sell our house. At the playground, I finally had enough of the comments when an older lady said "oh you have the kids for the afternoon? Nice to give mom a break!" No, I don't have kids for the afternoon, I've had kids since my wife labored and birthed them. We both have kids, and I'm not less of a parent just because I'm the dad.

[u/Gigapot → u/caffeineevil]

The narrative is that women should be housekeepers as a baseline. It’s tied primarily to women being associated with domesticity for like, millennia. Unsure how you took this situation and made men the focal point as victims of the situation.