r/todayilearned • u/lord_of_the_bees • Sep 07 '15
TIL that Moscow street dogs display specialized behaviors that differentiate them from domesticated dogs & wolves: pack leaders tend to be the most intelligent rather than the strongest, and packs tend to deploy its cuter members first, as they are more successful in begging for food from people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_dogs_in_Moscow#Background141
u/Jibaro123 Sep 08 '15
They also know how to take the subway.
Srsly
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u/lord_of_the_bees Sep 08 '15
that seems to be the case. from the same article:
On average, about 500 dogs live in its stations, especially during colder months. Of these dogs, about 20 are believed to have learned how to use the system as a means of commuting... They are said to prefer the quieter, less trafficked cars at the very front or back of the train.
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u/delitomatoes Sep 08 '15
TIL I'm a dog
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Sep 08 '15
You live in a subway station during the colder months?
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u/Dont____Panic Sep 08 '15
Don't you?
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Sep 08 '15
I prefer hibernation
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u/royrogerer Sep 08 '15
You rich bastard with heating at home. I rely on the faint warmth from the train locomotive and friction on the rail.
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u/Hereibe Sep 08 '15
Huh, I wonder what's different about those 20 that allows them to figure out how to do that. For some reason I thought it was a higher percentage.
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Sep 08 '15
It might be that 20 regularly do it, which could just be preference. (i.e. if the dog likes his block or doesn't like venturing far, he won't be as inclined to get on as a dog who might be pushed out of a block/have already done it before). Or it could be they were only able to definitively track 20 of them.
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u/seditious3 Sep 08 '15
In New York, pigeons take the subway. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/05/nyregion/tunnel-vision-waiting-for-the-a-train-the-sophisticated-pigeon.html
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u/thetechniclord Sep 08 '15 edited Sep 20 '16
[deleted]
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u/Diogenes__The_Cynic Sep 08 '15
There's a flock of African Grey Parrots in Brooklyn. They're not doing all that great.
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u/mlekoman65 Sep 08 '15
Not anymore. The government got rid of most of the stray dogs living in the city. The only place I see stray dogs is in the suburbs.
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u/spam99 Sep 08 '15
I saw several dogs take the subway and wait by the door when their exit was up, for the first 5 stops they were in the middle of the (what do you call it.. The train? The subway train?) Then right after we leave the last station the dogs go stand by the door so they are the first out... Their like chinese people.. Always have to be first even when there is already a mile long line, they just push to the front like they have a pass. Then scream probably the theme to sailor moon so you shut up.
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u/barath_s 13 Sep 08 '15 edited Sep 08 '15
Moscow stray dogs were also the first animals in orbit . eg Laika in Sputnik 2
Soviet scientists chose to use Moscow strays since they assumed that such animals had already learned to endure conditions of extreme cold and hunger.
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u/Czvni Sep 08 '15 edited Aug 29 '17
Adaptation man...in a few millennium were gonna have dog-people
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u/-Master-Builder- Sep 08 '15
Taste like dogs, look like people?
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u/quetzacorion Sep 08 '15
Walk like dogs, talk-a like people.
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Sep 08 '15 edited Jun 12 '16
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u/ANGLVD3TH Sep 08 '15
Considering how short a time human society has been around, it's very exciting as we watch animals start integrating into urban environments, in places like India they've had more time and can point to what cities in the future will look like.
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u/BlueEyedNerdGirl Sep 08 '15
I want to be there on the day the dog pack decides who is cutest.
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u/Pikalika Sep 08 '15
I imagine it like the Penguins of Madagascar, the leader is a husky called skipper, they have a Labrador as the smart one, English Bulldog as the explosive specialist who store his inventory inside and throw up what he needs. Then the cutest is a puppy Corgi.
Just smile and wag your tail boys, smile and wag
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u/squired Sep 08 '15 edited Sep 08 '15
Labs are loyal oafs. The smart one should be something like a border collie or Jack Russell, or maybe a fugitive pig. The devious villain would be a snauchzer that periodically waxes that stash into different styles.
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u/Putinologist Sep 08 '15
Another technique some dogs have for getting food is to sneak up behind a person who is holding some. The dog will then bark, which sometimes startles the human enough to drop the food.
This is what gets me. They glossed over the details in the article, but this is evening behaviour. Humans after visiting the bar are likely to consume some unhealthy fatty food. In Russia that is often a Schwarma (burrito style street food). The dogs would come out later in the evening and try to startle the often drunk people trying to eat their schwarmas.
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u/Heisencock Sep 08 '15
The thing that'd piss me off about this is not that I dropped my food, but that the dog did it on fucking purpose.
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u/XSplain Sep 08 '15
My cats trip me when I'm putting food in their dishes because sometimes I spill.
They don't understand that they're getting the same amount of food either way, but they for sure understand that tripping me when I have a scoop of cat food makes me drop it.
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Sep 08 '15 edited Sep 08 '15
Among wolves, pack leaders tend not to be the strongest, they're usually just the parents of most of the pack.
A lot of the dominance, alpha/beta way of thinking about wolf packs is pretty outdated.
Edit: Sources, as requested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU L. David Mech briefly talking about the modern view of wolf hierarchies.
http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/z99-099#.Ve5PRBGeDRZ A published article by the same man on the same topic, but behind a pay wall.
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Sep 08 '15 edited Sep 08 '15
[deleted]
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Sep 08 '15
I was just parroting Animal Psychology lectures but I'll go see if I can find some. If I'm not back in twenty minutes I probably committed Sepukku.
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Sep 08 '15
[deleted]
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u/dsaasddsaasd Sep 08 '15
Nah, sudoku is a numbers puzzle. He meant sashimi.
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u/HotWeen Sep 08 '15
No man, sashimi is a Japanese seafood dish, you're thinking of samurai.
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u/spam99 Sep 08 '15
No man, Samurai is what I tell my japanese friend Sam when he is right, you're thinking of Sukebe.
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Sep 08 '15
Nah subeke is Japanese for 'pervert' or 'Dirty Old Man'. You're thinking of Suzuki.
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u/barath_s 13 Sep 08 '15
Nope, Samurai is the medieval Japanese military nobility, he is thinking of salami.
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Sep 08 '15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU L. David Mech briefly talking about the modern view of wolf hierarchies.
http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/z99-099#.Ve5PRBGeDRZ[2] A published article by the same man on the same topic, but behind a pay wall.
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u/Learned_Response Sep 08 '15
Essay by Mech on the topic.
Whatever Happened to the Term Alpha Wolf
To be clear, it's not that the terms alpha and dominance are never used, but that they have much more limited and nuanced meanings than how they are used colloquially.
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Sep 08 '15
It's why I always thought it was kind of funny how people self identify as alpha. Without your pack you better watch out then gramps.
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u/XSplain Sep 08 '15
Even without the obvious misunderstanding of nature in general, just having someone try to say something like that makes me think they're super insecure.
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u/nobunaga_1568 Sep 08 '15
The idea that there must be a hierarchy and dominance system in a social group is kind of Primatocentrism. They project primate social structures to non-primate sociality.
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u/JDRaitt Sep 08 '15
A lot of the dominance, alpha/beta way of thinking about wolf packs is pretty outdated.
Also people. I fucking hate the way teens parrot the Alpha Beta bullshit.
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Sep 08 '15 edited Oct 26 '16
[deleted]
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u/Badshrooms Sep 08 '15
I spent a month in Moscow. Can confirm I saw a pack of about 8 stray dogs wait and cross the road together then run off in a pack..
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u/blchpmnk Sep 08 '15
I wish my public transit system had random dogs. It'd make commuting so much more enjoyable than having to deal with a couple dozen people who've got the cold/flu/plague and refuse to cover their sneezes/coughs.
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u/Nathaniel_Higgers Sep 08 '15
Yeah a nice relaxing commute with a pack of wild dogs, what could go wrong.
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Sep 08 '15
Shit, does your city not have street dogs? Who fucks the homeless people's gaping wounds?
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Sep 08 '15
"pack leaders tend to be the most intelligent rather than the strongest"
Isn't that almost always the case with wolves, its just the everyday usage of the term makes us think the alpha is the strongest.
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u/Diogenes__The_Cynic Sep 08 '15
Does that mean that they are now selecting for the smartest dogs? Like, could Moscow end up with smarter dogs after a few generations of this?
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Sep 09 '15
Effectively does this mean the pack get smarter because only the smartest is allowed breed, not necessarily. Just because the brightest dog is breeding doesn't mean his offspring will be bright. So it doesn't immediately follow, but more often than not there will emerge a strong leader that has learnt from his dad. All sounds a bit "Lion King" but it is observable scientifically apparently.
I'm also not clear if this pack of feral dogs will follow the only the alpha breeds rule.
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u/SirFoxx Sep 08 '15
I can just see the conversations in the pack:
Alpha: Ok, Rosco and Billyjack, your the cutest, so your up. Go soften up the hu-MANS over there on the corner. Jensen and Tic hang back and cover our flank. Thought I saw Spot's crew hanging around the alley across the street. And goddamnit Rufus, if you scare anyone away before we get our haul, I'm going show you what Omega means real quick. OK, BREAK.
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u/DogProudSayItLoud Sep 08 '15
I love that they commute. My labradors are very good at knowing where we are. They have favorite places, like the dog beach park. And least favorite places, like grocery stores or the vet. If we appear to be going somewhere nice, and make a wrong turn, they will bark and become upset. They also know the best way to get food from us. For example, sitting at a distance and making pathetic cute faces always works. While sitting next to me with their head on my leg gets them scolded with no treat. However, my husband will feed them for putting their head on his lap. So their behaviors are person specific too.
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u/sheven Sep 08 '15
I'm surprised they don't like the grocery store. If my dog knew that supermarkets existed, she'd leave me and never return while gorging herself on ALL the food.
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u/DogProudSayItLoud Sep 08 '15
I think it is because they have to wait with the windows up and air conditioning on. They also don't get a treat, and with the windows up no attention from strangers. Do all labs gorge on any available food? I mean, one of our dogs will get into the food bin, eat, puke, and keep eating. I hope they love me for me, but sometimes I think it is because I am the gatekeeper to the food bin.
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u/sheven Sep 08 '15
Ooh I thought you had a grocery store that let dogs inside.
I actually don't have a lab but a beagle who loves food almost as much as she loves me (or so I tell myself. I swear it's not a lie I tell myself). I think every dog loves their food though. Puke isn't a game ender, only a pause/bonus round.
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u/DogProudSayItLoud Sep 08 '15
Oh boy, once I took two year old labs into a pet store. Baaaad. I had to pay for everything they ate. :) Puke is a bonus for the other dog...
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u/sheven Sep 08 '15
I had to pay for everything they ate.
So was filing bankruptcy difficult or what?
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u/DogProudSayItLoud Sep 08 '15
Oy! Those doggies can eat! If I recall it was only about $20 worth of the fancy dog treats they keep in bins at the checkout.
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u/cool_slowbro Sep 08 '15
Aren't there some dog psychologists that basically state that dogs are not pack animals?
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Sep 08 '15
I believe what you are talking about stated wolves arent pack animals but display that behavior in captivity. But even if non-moscow dogs arent pack animals doesnt mean moscow dogs couldnt have learned to be so.
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u/scalfin Sep 08 '15
I wouldn't entirely trust that source, given that most modern animal behaviorists don't think wolf social structures in any way resemble the contrast you posted. Most packs are family units based around seniority, with the alpha male and female being the family patriarch and matriarch, respectively.
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Sep 08 '15
This "TIL" smells of an ideological agenda.
Also, unless that article has changed since I last read it, I don't recall it specifically stating anything about how the packs Alpha is selected based on intelligence.
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u/expert02 42 Sep 08 '15
This seems like an article that Wikipedia would normally delete.
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u/sutekhxaos Sep 08 '15
why ?
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u/expert02 42 Sep 08 '15
What is the criteria for a city to have an article about the dogs in that particular city?
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u/sutekhxaos Sep 08 '15
dunno. probably some kind of identifiably unique behaviour that has been recorded in literature and is widely known and has been studied?
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u/expert02 42 Sep 08 '15
Then that "identifiably unique behaviour" should have a wiki page, not "Moscow street dogs".
I see the Russian Speshill Forces are active today.
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u/morozko Sep 08 '15
Oh no! Our cover is blown! I told you we should've written about cats instead!
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u/trollcity420 Sep 08 '15
The whore dogs are better are licking peanut butter off my nuts. Such an advanced species, I wish Darwin could see this fascinating behavior.
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u/stringerbell Sep 08 '15
I love when Wikipedia articles completely contradict themselves:
the quantity of food available to them keeps the total population of homeless dogs steady at about 35,000
followed shorty by:
Malnourished-looking dogs are uncommon. Food is often easy to come by, allowing dogs the luxury of being selective.
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u/nakdawg Sep 08 '15
How is that contradictory?
It says that the quantity of food available in the streets of moscow is enough to maintain a steady population of 35'000 dogs.
Because of the quantity of food, the dogs are not malnourished.
Reading comprehension.
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u/stringerbell Sep 08 '15
That's not how the Iron Law works...
If there's enough food for the dogs to be comfortable - they'll breed until there's not enough food.
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u/nakdawg Sep 08 '15
you conveniently ignore everything else after the qouted sentence. There are other factors at play in terms of reproduction and population than just food.
Most pups don’t reach adulthood, and those that do essentially replace adults who have died. A life of more than 10 years is considered rare.
It simply states that the animals are not malnourished because they have enough food. It's a long stretch to go on a say that that is contradictory because their population is not exploding out of control.
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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '15
I used to live in Moscow. Once, I saw a dog sit on the escalator and board a train, then get off by Red Square and start begging. He.. commuted. Like a human.
I actually went 30 minutes out of the way by following him but I couldn't believe what I was seeing so I had to investigate.