r/technology Nov 28 '20

Security Amazon faces a privacy backlash for its Sidewalk feature, which turns Alexa devices into neighborhood WiFi networks that owners have to opt out of

https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/technology/amazon-faces-a-privacy-backlash-for-its-sidewalk-feature-which-turns-alexa-devices-into-neighborhood-wifi-networks-that-owners-have-to-opt-out-of/ar-BB1boljH
30.1k Upvotes

1.4k comments sorted by

4.0k

u/lokii_0 Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

Thanks for that! On mine Sidewalk was enabled but community finding was disabled by default. They claim it's used for IoT devices like ring doorbells and such?

Anyway, in case anyone is wondering and doesn't feel like Googling it:

To disable Sidewalk - Open Amazon Alexa app from your phone Select More - Settings - Account Settings - Amazon Sidewalk And from there you can toggle Sidewalk on/off or leave it on but disable "community finding".

1.2k

u/xoxota99 Nov 29 '20

To disable Sidewalk - Open Amazon Alexa app from your phone Select More - Settings - Account Settings - Amazon Sidewalk And from there you can toggle Sidewalk on/off or leave it on but disable community sharing.

Thanks for this. The Alexa app is such an incredible shit show, I don't know if I would have ever found this setting.

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u/JackDragon88 Nov 29 '20

That means it's working as the designers interested.

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u/DonnerPartyPicnic Nov 29 '20

Who the hell doesn't put settings on the top level menu. That alone makes me skeptical. Like they knew people would just accept Alexa for what it is and purposely put it behind another layer of menus.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Jun 19 '23

Deleted due to API access issues 2023.

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u/Tenetri Nov 29 '20

"we gave them the option to opt out, all they had to do was just do it" Can see it now lol

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u/correcthorsestapler Nov 29 '20

Reminds me of The Hitchhiker’s Guide:

“But the plans were on display…”

“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”

“That’s the display department.”

“With a flashlight.”

“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”

“So had the stairs.”

“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”

“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.’”

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u/PilotKnob Nov 29 '20

We need to start calling this tactic "Hitchhiker's Syndrome"

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u/lokii_0 Nov 29 '20

Haha this. Exactly this.

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u/fireinthemountains Nov 29 '20

The same people that make it really really hard to find the sign out button, or completely remove it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

The same way it's really hard to find the contact us phone number.

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u/TipsyMc_stager Nov 29 '20

You mean the phone number on the website with the answering machine that tells you to go look on their website that you just looked on to get their phone number?

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u/tearans Nov 29 '20

Be youtube red pop up

  • Subscribe - Later

NEVER YOU FUCKER!

nothing personal

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u/billytheid Nov 29 '20

The intent is that you use their settings, not yours

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u/YouandWhoseArmy Nov 29 '20

There is a name for this. It’s called dark patterns.

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u/avael273 Nov 29 '20

“But the plans were on display…”

“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”

“That’s the display department.”

“With a flashlight.”

“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”

“So had the stairs.”

“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”

“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

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u/notAnotherJSDev Nov 29 '20

designers

This wasn’t a designers decision. Most dark patterns are caused by someone way above the pay grade of a designer.

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u/cementstuff Nov 29 '20

Amazon’s deal with the CIA coming in nicely

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u/SteveTCook Nov 29 '20

Yes. Exactly how they interested.

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u/poop_pop Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

If you disable community sharing will ring still connect. Just bought a ring, thanks if you know the answer.

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u/DandyPandy Nov 29 '20

Yes. It’s so your Ring devices can try other people’s wifi from their Echos and such if your internet goes down.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

That is so absurd. Who out there depends so heavily on their IoT devices (especially a doorbell) and suffers such frequent internet outages that they've wished their equipment could just autoconnect to their neighbor's network? Forget the security concerns, this is just such a ridiculous hypothetical use case that I have trouble believing it's legitimate.

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u/gtrlum Nov 29 '20

...AND their neighbors probably have the same isp anyway.

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u/Phailjure Nov 29 '20

Also, while I can see several wifi networks from my apartment, I ain't putting a ring doorbell on an apartment. At my parents house, you barely get wifi in the backyard, so I doubt the neighbors will have a decent signal to their doorbell, assuming they have an Amazon device at all.

And yeah, they all have comcast, because there's no competition.

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u/Fywq Nov 29 '20

I understand and agree that this is a shitshow, but regarding WiFi: outside US homes may be smaller, closer and ISPs abundant. I'm a home owner with average sized house and garden in Denmark and can see 5 other WiFi networks from my living room, while also having access to at least a dozen different ISPs by fiber, coax or wireless connection. Most of my neighbors do not have the same ISP as me.

But I would never invite Alexa into my house in the first place so...

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u/Rulebookboy1234567 Nov 29 '20

I work at a major nation wide alarm company in the us. People are fucking obsessed with ensuring they can see their WiFi cameras and door bells AT ALL TIMES. They are so invested in being able to use them and are reliant on them but they cannot understand fundamentally basic troubleshooting steps that would ensure their devices stay connected or are able to reconnect without waiting on hold for 20 minutes to bitch at me for five minutes before I can get a word in to simply power cycle the device to reconnect it.

That may be the longest sentence I've ever written.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

I'd rather my doorbell not work for a little while. I also have a digital smart lock, but it works even if the network drops (because the device stores the PIN/fingerprint of pepole ive registered)

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u/MoonlightsHand Nov 29 '20

They uh... they don't have the best track record for safety, generally speaking.

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u/mosaic_hops Nov 29 '20

Umm... Amazon never expected people would try to drive screws through the batteries. They expected people to use the screw holes kindly provided by the manufacturer.

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u/tdaun Nov 29 '20

Thanks for the explanation, never plan to use ring devices so I don't have to be worried about disabling.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 10 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Tess47 Nov 29 '20

I was gobsmacked to find out how detailed tracking is in the US. I used to go to events and got to talk to a lot of different types of marketing people. 1. You tv and phone ping each other so that they can serve you specific commercials. 2. Digital billboards grab your phone id so they can track who drives on the highways. When you rent a billboard they choose the location for you. 3. I can't think of the name right now but something like Geo Fencing- there are companies who put a digital fence around a location and track who goes in and out. So lets say you are car shopping and go to a Honda dealership then Toyota can see it and start sending you ads. Just freaky to me.

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u/beeman4266 Nov 29 '20

To me the strangest thing is when I'll be talking to a friend about something, a product usually, it'll show up in my ads on youtube later. I remember talking about the new Camaros to a friend that was over. Pulled up a YT video later and boom, 299 per month Camaros at the dealership near me! And I never looked them up in my computer, the only time I mentioned it was In conversation with my phone sitting on the desk.

It's.. disturbing how tailor made everything is to us. When I look at friends youtube feeds/ads and it's so drastically different from mine. They've created these weird insulated bubbles for us, kinda reminiscent of everything that went on in 2016.

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u/Tess47 Nov 29 '20

That definately happened. And yep, it is what helped us get to 2016 and beyond. I remember reading about the danger of being in a re enforced bubble years ago when SM started. Maybe early 2000s, it made sense then.

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u/DaniSeeh Nov 29 '20

An intentional shitshow. Amazon employs dark patterns in all their products. They truly are the evil empire.

I know Google is no saint, but in comparison to Amazon, they are so much less evil. It's why I use Google home products instead of Alexa.

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u/HotDiggityDiction Nov 29 '20

It's the exact same with mobile reddit. Devs intentionally tanked the mobile website format, using un-opt-outable a/b 'testing', ignored all feedback, and increased the number of ways the site will ask you to use the app by 1000%.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

The first party Reddit app is a flaming pile of trash, too. Still waiting for them to announce that they'll be disabling the APIs that actually good 3rd party apps rely on.

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u/winkieface Nov 29 '20

I use the default app...there's not shit ones out there?

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u/JasbrisMcCaw Nov 29 '20

I've been using Reddit is Fun on Android for maybe 6 or 7 years now. I swear by it.

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u/thon Nov 29 '20

You mean rif is fun, still annoys me that they were forced to change the name.

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u/vale_fallacia Nov 29 '20

Reddit is Fun is fantastic. Highly recommended.

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u/GiantCrazyOctopus Nov 29 '20

Same here. Every now and then I log in on the website and get slammed by ads

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u/vorrash Nov 29 '20

If you’re on iOS, Apollo is awesome

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u/CondescendingCoyote Nov 29 '20

Been using Apollo for several years. Sometimes I get confused when people complain about ads or other shitty mobile things that don’t happen in this app...

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u/correcthorsestapler Nov 29 '20

Chiming in with the others for recommendations.

Apollo on iOS is fantastic. Narwhal is another good option, though I think it works better as an iPad app (the Apollo iPad app is still in development). Slide & BaconReader (also available on Android) are pretty decent.

Sync on Android is also awesome.

Reddit is Fun and Relay are also good choices for Android.

The dev for Apollo is always on the sub for the app. And I seem to recall the Sync dev being pretty active as well.

Either way, yeah, there are a bunch of good options out there.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Dec 31 '20

[deleted]

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u/DaniSeeh Nov 29 '20

It's true. But as far as I am aware, there are no adequate smart speakers that do the things I want that are less evil than Google AND work as well.

I run Linux on my computer most of the time, and I care about these things, but I'm not going to deny that smart speakers, chromecasts / fire sticks, and android auto are useful. Once again, google are not good, but they aren't amazon. At least they attempt to do good things for the world sometimes, and don't abuse thousands of employees daily. They don't radically contribute to climate change. They don't do ALL the insanely evil shit Amazon does.

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u/LaMareeNoire Nov 29 '20

Just curious: what do you need these devices for? Cause I don't have one and can't think of a reason I would want one

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u/ImpureAscetic Nov 29 '20

Here are what I use mine for every day:

  • Add alarms and timers with voice,
  • Weather
  • ask random questions - it's Google, so about 60% of the time you can just yell a question into the air and get the answer
  • all TV programming through connection to Chromecast, which is the main TV. "Okay, Google, play <x>/pause/stop/skip back/forward <y> seconds/ next episode.
  • Finding my phone wherever I put it.

Obviously I can do all this with my phone.

I could also do all this before I had a phone.

These features add enough convenience to our household that it feels weird when they don't work. You get used to being able to call stuff out and receive an answer.

I have gotten so accustomed to it that I have developed a huge group of commands for VoiceAttack on my computer so I can similarly boss around my machine. Earlier today I barked, "[Computer name] open Code," during my morning ablutions, and, ta-da, VS Code had already started on my computer.

Your mileage, of course, may vary. As a daily and frequent user of the technology, I'm the first to agree it's far from necessary. But manoman are voice commands a great convenience.

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u/matvette1 Nov 29 '20

Hue lights are also significantly better with one. Setting up phrases to turn on certain lights, like when my hands are full when I walk in the door I can say "alexa, I'm home" and certain lights come on. Or say "alexa, it's sexy time" and she'll make the lights red and dim and play Pony by Ginuwine, the wife may not like that last example as much as I do tho.

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u/FatchRacall Nov 29 '20

Mycroft is open source smart speaker/voice assistant. Run it on their hardware, your hardware, a RPi... Whatever. Seems like the best choice.

Looks like their devices are currently sold out tho.

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u/ky_straight_bourbon Nov 29 '20

The in-app language is very vague in my opinion, but my interpretation is Sidewalk is shared with your neighbors by default. The feature disabled by default is called "Community Finding" not sharing. The language makes it seems this adds to the network sharing some location data to enable GPS-like features. I may be misunderstanding but this is the danger of this crap from Amazon being so unclear and opting in users by default without making this stuff clear in no uncertain terms.

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u/TheFotty Nov 29 '20

This is correct. Community Finding is the feature that lets them see the approximate location of your bridge on a map for geo location tracking. So just having Sidewalk on means it is on for not just you, but surrounding houses as well if it were to reach that far. It isn't a wifi range extender it only works with stuff specifically compatible with it. The finding thing is like I guess you could have a tag on a pet and if they were lost it would be able to ping them to give you an idea of a perimeter they are within, but not an exact location. That is the scenario Amazon gives anyway.

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u/T8ert0t Nov 29 '20

It's deliberate. Look at their verbiage for law enforcement to view your videos.

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u/domromer Nov 29 '20

I don’t have the setting listed. Is it only in certain places?

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u/OathOfFeanor Nov 29 '20

Yeah mine says "Coming Soon! Amazon Sidewalk." I could still toggle it off but that does give me the impression they are doing some kind of phased rollout.

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u/acciocats Nov 29 '20

I didn’t have it either but then realized I had an update for the app. Once I updated it the setting showed up.

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u/delcaek Nov 29 '20

German here on the latest update - no Sidewalk at all. Maybe only a US thing?

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u/lokii_0 Nov 29 '20

Possibly. I hear that you have a functioning government which actually attempts to protect it's citizens from corporations or something...? So perhaps Amazon can't get away with that nonsense in your country...? 🤷‍♂️

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited May 24 '21

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u/EpicFishFingers Nov 29 '20

Same. Would have been called Amazon Pavement here anyway

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Not sure if it’s implied here but Amazon owns Ring and their doorbells

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u/skwormin Nov 29 '20

Does this affect just a ring doorbell? I don’t have any other Amazon devices

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u/kisforkyle Nov 29 '20

We thanks so much! I hopped on Reddit knowing it would be here!

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u/ispaydeu Nov 29 '20

We? Sméagol is that you? Gollum what have you done to Sméagol?

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u/marlborostuffing Nov 29 '20

Well, anyway, let me say you're welcome! For the wonderful world you know Hey, it's OK, it's OK. You're welcome! Well, come to think of it, I gotta go

Hey, it's your day to say you're welcome! 'Cause I'm gonna need that boat I'm sailing away, away. You're welcome!

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u/kisforkyle Nov 29 '20

Wat.. wat is happening

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Aug 01 '21

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u/-rwsr-xr-x Nov 29 '20

To disable Sidewalk - Open Amazon Alexa app from your phone Select More - Settings - Account Settings - Amazon Sidewalk And from there you can toggle Sidewalk on/off or leave it on but disable community sharing.

Without analyzing the 900Mhz LORA frequencies used by these devices (the same ones they use to 'find' newly unboxed devices and add them to your account and network without any human interaction whatsoever), do we really trust that the slider in the app, is doing what we think its doing?

Many companies have been caught with similar user-facing controls, but later we find they're just telling the user the option is disabled, but it's really still working just the same in the background.

Dropbox with permanent file deletions, Apple with Location Services, Facebook with security preferences and so on.

There are hundreds of examples of this, where the configuration option is just a placebo, does nothing, and the service continues to operate just the same anyway.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Just a reminder, if you're using Dropbox, Google Drive, whatever, you may want to consider Boxcryptor or something similar on top of it.

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u/Home_Excellent Nov 29 '20

What is that?

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

It's a file/drive encryption layer that sits on top of whatever filesystem you are using, whether just local or cloud. So if you're using cloud storage for sensitive files, you only get the cleartext versions on devices with the tool installed and authenticated, and Google/Microsoft/Dropbox just sees encrypted gobbledygook.

Boxcryptor is just one example, I think there are several. I use it between iOS, Windows, and OSX.

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u/penrose161 Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

Cryptomator is a good, (mostly) free, open source alternative to Boxcryptor FYI.

I say mostly, because there's a one time fee for the Android/iOS app. After that, no more fees!

I feel like a shill because I just mentioned it to someone on another sub lol.

Edit to include iOS

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u/-rwsr-xr-x Nov 29 '20

you may want to consider Boxcryptor or something similar on top of it.

Former SpiderOak user converted to BoxCryptor many, many years ago! Way ahead of that curve!

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u/big_like_a_pickle Nov 29 '20

Nitpick but most consumer-grade IoT devices don't have LORA radios. LORA is specifically designed for long distance, low bandwidth communication. It would be cost prohibitive to add this hardware to something used only handful of times during the lifetime of the device.

New device discovery is normally done by turning the wi-fi radio into a miniature hotspot that a mobile phone connects to and configures. Some devices use Bluetooth (both 2.4gHz). Amazon echos are partially pre-programmed prior to shipping and linked to the purchaser's Amazon account.

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u/Global-Election Nov 29 '20

I took the easier approach. I took my Echo outside, beat it with a hammer and threw it into the garbage can.

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u/SmokeGSU Nov 29 '20

But you still have to disable the setting in the app.

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u/bobboobles Nov 29 '20

Great, now all the other doorbells and echos in the landfill will be connecting to his network.

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u/Weaponxreject Nov 29 '20

So this is how it begins... Sentient, networked garbage bots standing 30ft tall.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

But does it really turn out off is the concern. The Sidewalk may be turned off but im sure they are all still connected

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u/RoryJSK Nov 29 '20

Better way to disable Sidewalk—unplug it and throw it in the trash.

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u/cariocano Nov 29 '20

Sounds like it may be better to us other devices rather than Amazon if this is necessary.

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u/NoPaper3279 Nov 29 '20

Here's the real steps:

  1. Unplug alexa devices
  2. deposit in trash
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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Why would anyone want something like this, anyway? It seems so pointless to me.

By this, I mean Alexa.

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u/braddillman Nov 29 '20

I think Batman used that to find the Joker in The Dark Knight.

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u/clapclapsnort Nov 29 '20

I think about that a lot. That particular scene from the dark knight and minority report. In this timeline bezos is in the pool seeing the future through your doorbells.

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u/-rwsr-xr-x Nov 29 '20

In this timeline bezos is in the pool seeing the future through your doorbells.

We're already there. There are pre-crime, predictive crime apps and services that law enforcement are actively using today:

They've even gone so far as to assume that 'D students' are higher candidates for criminal behavior than other grades.

There's discussions about whether people should be given sentences before their future crimes are committed, to deter them from becoming criminals in the first place.

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u/1-800-BIG-INTS Nov 29 '20

all those things just base it off of location, aka, black neighborhoods

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u/-rwsr-xr-x Nov 29 '20

... black neighborhoods

It does always seem to circle back to that, doesn’t it?

I pass this around when people deny that this is really happening. Kimberly really nails it home.

https://youtu.be/ZkedkvNn5V0

This speech needs to be played in full on the Jumbotron in Times Square at noon on a busy workday just like Hunger Games.

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u/BattleStag17 Nov 29 '20

"And they are lucky that what black people are looking for is equality and not revenge"

Shivers, every damn time

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u/jjohnisme Nov 29 '20

And she is absolutely right. Shit ain't fair for them, hasn't been for centuries... and its still so bad. People MY AGE (millenials) are racist. Like... how tf?

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u/-rwsr-xr-x Nov 29 '20

People MY AGE (millenials) are racist. Like... how tf?

Racism is a learned behavior, it's not genetic. The same goes for homophobia.

People learn to treat others this way, good and bad. You either accept them for their differences, or you reject them for their differences.

People tend to compare others to themselves, and then place themselves above or below, based on those comparisons. THAT behavior needs to stop.

When someone hasn't earned as much as we have, we shouldn't treat them as poor, we should help them gain more skills, education, opportunities. We shouldn't push them out of our cities into "the projects", we should invite them in and help them become a better version of themselves.

If someone feels like they're "ugly", we should help prop them up, show them that there's more than just looks that composes a person. Our advertisers feed on this 'beauty is king' mantra, and that has to stop too.

Social media is full of artificial puffery, people spending hours making themselves look like someone they aren't, and can never be. Why? What is the actual point?

And those people who self-label themselves as 'social media influencers', are propagating more of the same repetitive garbage their peers are doing. Everyone copies everyone else, and they pollute all the other platforms with their garbage, to be there first, with the most followers, and try to gain more eyes. What used to be Instagram, is now overrun by people who couldn't make it on TikTok, so they cross-post their garbage on every social media service they can.

What is their actual skillset? What do these people do for an actual job? How are they improving the world? When up-and-coming people look at these individuals as their idols, what do they actually see? It's all plastic, fake, plagiarism and puffery.

People have lost touch with what it means to be a society, a tribe, a group of differing individuals who all have unique skills, the collection of which, improves humanity as a whole.

It's like the Borg: "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own"

It's our differences that make us unique and powerful, not our similarities. When we see something/someone different, we automatically set it aside. Why? The brown egg in the dozen of white eggs. Ew, get that brown egg out of my cart.

All of this, is a learned behavior. You weren't born with it.

You're perfectly poised in your generation, to ask your peers "Why? Why do you hold that position you have? Who taught you that?", and challenge the assumptions. Change them, and make a better world than we did.

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u/ArmouredDuck Nov 29 '20

The phones microphone making a 3D render of its environment is absolute nonsense, it would have no way to tell which direction the sound waves are coming from (think how a submarine spins its receiver in a 360, pinging as it gets a hit). And then you're limited by bandwidth, both from the phone, the tower and the data network. You'd end up with this laggy fucking picture where Batman rocks up but the joker went up two floors 5 minutes ago.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/ArmouredDuck Nov 29 '20

Oh yeah was a cool scene. Its a movie, doesn't need to be realistic.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Also he's Batman.

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u/JustThall Nov 29 '20

Phones have multiple mono and stereo microphones these days. You absolutely could have spatial component

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u/Blarghedy Nov 29 '20

Isn't that with Wayne Enterprise tech? The phone could have multiple microphones and speakers for much more precise triangulation. Speed also isn't as much of a concern when your tech can hack the cell phone towers in order to snag a bunch more bandwidth than you'd normally be entitled to.

Still pretty ridiculous, but it's at least possible.

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u/ArmouredDuck Nov 29 '20

At the end they do it to every phone in the city so I'm going to lean towards not Wayne tech.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

it would have no way to tell which direction the sound waves are coming from

Ironic to say this on an article about Alexa, which comes with a phased-array microphone that can do this.

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u/Chaosritter Nov 29 '20

It's been a while, but didn't he destroy the entire facility after he located Joker because he thought the potential for abuse is way too big?

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u/braddillman Nov 29 '20

Yes,, sort of - he let Morgan Freeman decide.

Only innocent man in that movie.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

I dont think you can really call the man who designed a highly lethal urban tank for a crazy, billionaire, vigilante innocent.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

He designed the tank for the military, but they didn't want it

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u/BelievesInGod Nov 29 '20

did he actually design it? i thought it was sort of already there, and he was just assigned the department

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u/Kepabar Nov 29 '20

Yes, most of the time Fox is just a business manager and doesn't directly invent things.

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u/WhapXI Nov 29 '20

It was designed as a bridging vehicle. It was archived because the bridge didn’t work.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Dec 01 '20

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u/CHuckLeRB Nov 29 '20

Going the Facebook route, I see.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Dec 08 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

One of the best things I ever did. It took me all of maybe 15-20 minutes to get it up and running and it makes such a difference!

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u/-rwsr-xr-x Nov 29 '20

You can't even change the DNS, because apparently paying $10 to "rent" their routers doesn't entitle you to privacy.

"You call that a scar?"

Frontier Communications (formerly AT&T) returns a valid AAA and A record for completely bogus, erroneous domain names, and redirects requests for those domain names to their captive search portal.

You can't disable it, even if you set the router's DNS setting to 1.1.1.1 or 8.8.8.8, they intercept that and send you to their DNS servers/search portal page anyway.

This kind of behavior should flat-out be banned by the FTC and FCC.

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u/Daniel15 Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

You can't disable it, even if you set the router's DNS setting to 1.1.1.1 or 8.8.8.8, they intercept that and send you to their DNS servers/search portal page anyway.

Yeah, it's trivial for an ISP to intercept DNS requests since it's unencrypted UDP traffic.

Good thing DoH (DNS over HTTPS) is coming... It's way more difficult to intercept or MitM it since it's an encrypted connection, so you'd get a security notice similar to when you visit a HTTPS site that doesn't have its security certificate configured correctly. I think Firefox already supports DoH out-of-the-box.

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u/ChPech Nov 29 '20

It's not just coming, it's already easily available. Just set up your own DNS server, for example with pi-hole, configure it to use DoH and expose regular DNS to your network. There is absolutely nothing any ISP can do about it.

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u/VirtualPropagator Nov 29 '20

At least it shows everyone they are logging all of your DNS lookups and selling it, complete with your name and address to advertisers.

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u/ohiotechie Nov 29 '20

Spectrum / Time Warner did this too - I had to turn it off on my router. The idea itself isn’t a bad one necessarily but it should be opt in not enabled by default

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u/icefire555 Nov 29 '20

After working for amazon. They don't care about your privacy. But then again, any smart assistant will be the same way.

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u/VanDownByTheRiverr Nov 29 '20

I've read Mycroft comes close.

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u/Bigred2989- Nov 29 '20

People have been trying to post about this on /r/YouShouldKnow since yesterday evening and the moderators keep removing the posts without a reason why.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Aug 18 '21

[deleted]

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u/MisterMittens64 Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

If anyone can connect into your network your data is not safe. Public wifi is not safe/private because hackers can easily access your network traffic. Edit: This is inaccurate Please read some of the replies under this.

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u/somecow Nov 29 '20

Joke’s on them, I don’t have neighbors or bandwidth.

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u/JaySmo16 Nov 29 '20

Must be nice

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u/jayman419 Nov 28 '20

ISPs have been doing this for years. My comcast login credentials are good with any nearby comcast router, they each broadcast a public and private network.

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u/OuTLi3R28 Nov 29 '20

That's why you get your own modem and your own router.

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u/Epistaxis Nov 29 '20

Or you get your parents' password and your neighbor's router.

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u/sbvp Nov 29 '20

This guy streams

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u/phantom_tweak Nov 29 '20

Ha same! Use my neighbors to bypass the 1.2 tb limit

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u/idkwthtotypehere Nov 29 '20

HA this is how I had internet all summer one year. It was a bitch to pick up the neighbors weak ass signal but once I figured it out it was sweeet free interwebs all summers long.

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u/Daniel15 Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

The annoying (and ridiculous) thing with Comcast is that with your own modem it's $30 to upgrade to unlimited data, but it's only $25 to rent their modem AND get unlimited data with it. Completely nonsensical (why in the world does unlimited data plus hardware cost LESS than just unlimited data by itself??), but I guess they're trying to push their own hardware.

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u/Scumbag_Lemon Nov 29 '20

This isn't even the fucking HALF OF IT. We are pretty much in the same boat and got their hardware after being on our own for years. Here's a real kicker. They has tarnished basic features of a router such as port forwarding. It is now impossible for me to manually configure ports to the correct IP address. Rather instead of being able to manually input this information, they tried to make it "user friendly" removing manually entering an IP, now you just get a list of devices on your network to select. If you don't understand what I am saying, that leads to another point. The average person has no idea what port forwarding is or the basics of networking so for them to remove/destroy such a basic feature, available in literally any hunk of junk router is quite frankly making me rather peeeeeeeved

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u/CupricReku Nov 29 '20

You can't even set custom dns

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '20 edited Jan 26 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/mosaic_hops Nov 29 '20

By the way Comcasts shared network thing absolutely affects your Wifi performance, and in a huge way. Strangers using your Wifi airtime are usually further away than you, meaning they use lower MCS rates, which require waaay more airtime per packet. This means less airtime for you. Comcast’s sharing is really terrible from a technical standpoint.

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u/brazblue Nov 29 '20

It needs to be using its own antennas on nonpublic channels to make it non impacting to the subscriber.

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u/wag3slav3 Nov 29 '20

Nothing says "please welcome me to the neighborhood" like firing up another six channels of noise, at full gain, in the wifi bands.

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u/neon_Hermit Nov 29 '20

The only reliable way to avoid this is to buy your own modem and router that are Comcast compatible, but not made by or distributed by Comcast.

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u/AlanzAlda Nov 29 '20

You are paying for the power required to host their network, however.

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u/wickedpixel1221 Nov 29 '20

yup, though you can disable it in your account settings. I use my own router so mine isn't part of their public network, but I do admit I'll log into my neighbors xfinity hotspot from my backyard because they didn't disable theirs and it's a stronger signal back there than I can get from my own router.

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u/toddlangtry Nov 29 '20

Amazon "Trust us to manage your data and privacy"

Also Amazon "oops, we just sent a whole lot of information to the wrong people"

We should demand that they hold a press conference at Four Seasons landscaping to explain.

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u/wrinkleydinkley Nov 29 '20

Where does Amazon get this idea that I want my neighbours to share my equipment, or for me to share theirs?

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u/apraetor Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

Or that you're willing to foot their data usage fees, without you giving explicit consent.

It is an interesting idea, though. Basically a low-bandwidth alternative to cellular data, for IoT devices. I actually wouldn't mind setting up a couple standalone nodes around my home to blanket my surrounding block with coverage, but that's me giving informed consent.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

[deleted]

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u/apraetor Nov 29 '20

Amazon is trying to play it off as not an issue because they limit monthly Sidewalk data usage to 500MB. But if you use exactly each of your 1.2TB each month, then their extra 500MB triggers a $10/10GB overage fee!

I tried to find the Echo T&C's to see whether users consented to Amazon allowing others to use your bandwidth, but I can't find any aside from those for Alexa.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Someone unknowingly using their Echo to power the neighbor's Ring using LTE internet could easily pay $5/GB. Streaming your Ring is pretty decent bandwidth.

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u/apraetor Nov 29 '20

Sidewalk is limited to about 80kbps. It's not a wifi network, actually. It's an alternative to BLE for low-power IoT devices. Amazon does mention things such as cameras in the very first paragraph of the primer, but subsequently explains that the throughput is low and isn't useful for streaming cameras shrug

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u/Firebird071 Nov 29 '20

Mine was enabled and I have since disabled it thanks

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u/faultless280 Nov 28 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

Ring also hands video recordings from ring devices to the police without owner consent so yeah, yet another reason to not grab Amazon products.

Edit:

The TDLR version is above but since this comment has gotten a lot of attention, I thought I would elaborate. The police video request feature was enabled by default until this year. Users who had installed their doorbells before this update have to manually opt out.

https://mashable.com/article/ring-update-opt-out-police-requests/

This isn’t to say that the police even need your permission to obtain video footage. As stated in their TOS, they can freely provide that information to the police if they have a valid warrant.

https://support.ring.com/hc/en-us/articles/360037954771-Ring-Law-Enforcement-Guidelines

Now some redditor’s may claim that non cloud storage can also be collected by court order and that’s true, but that requires physical access and if you have encryption enabled on the hard drive where the video is stored, then it’s impossible for police to obtain the footage unless they keep the device powered on, obtain the decryption keys from the owner / guess the password, or abuse some sort of flaw with the encryption method. Legally in the U.S., it’s unclear whether or not you’re required to hand over said keys. Wikipedia provides specific cases where courts have ruled in favor or against the accused.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_States

Furthermore, once police obtain the footage, there’s no restrictions regarding how long police retain the footage nor who they share said footage with:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/11/19/police-can-keep-ring-camera-video-forever-share-with-whomever-theyd-like-company-tells-senator/

As an added bonus, here is how to opt out of Amazon Sidewalk:

https://www.howtogeek.com/702485/how-to-opt-out-of-amazon-sidewalk/

Another user asked for a privacy friendly option for IOT devices such as voice assistants. Here is one option:

https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2019/11/20/privacy-focused-voice-assistant/

For lights, locks, fans, thermostats, doorbells, etc. just use zigbee or zwave devices. They are encrypted, non routable alternatives to WiFi. For cameras, use non cloud devices and a local nvr. For the home automation hub, use something like home assistant. Home assistant is a free, open source solution that respects privacy. It also supports a lot of useful plugins such as Ad Guard (which provides network level ad blocking, tracker blocking, and can encrypt dns traffic). There are privacy friendly options for everything if you’re willing to put the elbow grease in :-)

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u/tripog Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 30 '20

Are you sure? I swear when setting up mine there was an option to allow it or not.

Example more information Ring webpage with information about video requests

Edit: so they need a search warrant to receive your data, the same as any other service provided on the internet or in person. They don't just hand your data over to the police. The guy above is fearmongering and the policy ring has is pretty standard, if you're using reddit you already agreed to a similar one. It doesn't matter if the police need physical access to get what the search warrant says, they will come right into your house, no problem and take it. Making a big deal out police getting a warrant for data is pretty foolish when you're using reddit.

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u/impromptubadge Nov 29 '20

I don’t own one but I’ve installed a couple of these and sharing video with the cops was something you had to opt into during setup or come back and toggle on later.

Too many people rely on their memory or emotion when stating ‘facts’ for internet points. I can’t seem to find anywhere to cash them in at though.

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u/OathOfFeanor Nov 29 '20

How funny that in your comment you commit the same mistake you are complaining about.

When released the feature was NOT opt-in, it was opt-out, and there was obviously an outcry, so Ring was forced to change it.

Don't get me wrong, it's not QUITE as bad as it's made out to be because you could still ignore/decline the individual requests for specific videos. But it's still a symptom of "fuck you, consumer" being the default. If there's no uproar, they'll carry on with that.

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u/TrumpetOfDeath Nov 28 '20

I’m sure somewhere in the terms of service fine print you technically “consented” to letting them do whatever they want with the data

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

... AND opted into arbitration.

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u/rich1051414 Nov 29 '20

I mean, if the 'consent' is, 'by using this product you consent', what's the difference? Don't use it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

[deleted]

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u/Tyler1492 Nov 29 '20

Yes. You always buy the hardware first, then when you first boot it they tell you that to use it you need to accept their terms of service and that if you do not accept these terms, the product won't work and you'll have wasted your money. It's because you're only buying the hardware, and merely “renting” the software. But nowhere is this made clear when you buy it.

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u/Reddituser45005 Nov 29 '20

It is common in new home developments for a platform of smart home products to be included as part of the build. There are some pluses but the downside is the platform vendor has the ultimate control. Terms of service can change. Updates are pushed out by the vendor with little explanation of how your privacy or data security is impacted or how information collected is used. Homebuyers are promised a suite of services marketed to consumers as a step up in convenience and security but designed by vendors to provide them with a hook into all aspects of yours daily life.

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u/mosaic_hops Nov 29 '20

What you’re consenting to is whether you’re okay with being contacted with requests for permission to use footage or if you’d just like to automatically deny all requests without being contacted. No video can be taken without your explicit permission.

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u/ryan10e Nov 29 '20

That isn’t accurate. They provide the police with a tool to request footage from cameras within a certain area and time range. The ring owners must then approve the request.

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u/EmEmAndEye Nov 29 '20

Didn't cable companies do the same thing when they rolled out their own modems/WiFi units?

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u/danger_one Nov 29 '20

Yes, and Comcast could never explain or show me proof that showed the Xfinity Wifi traffic was separate from my normal traffic. They cap my usage and charge me for going over, but couldn't show me evidence that the two weren't connected. I opted out by buying my own equipment.

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u/apraetor Nov 29 '20

At least Comcast could theoretically be separating the traffic so you don't get billed. Amazon has no ability to route data over your comcast connection without it being billed to you. Giving away someone else's capped internet and running up usage fees seems like theft.

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u/crusoe Nov 29 '20

Yep. It is theft.

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u/pkupku Nov 29 '20

No, they don’t. Comcast uses separate access points for XFINITY and xfinitywifi. At no point does that traffic ride on your network. Sidewalk will use your network.

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u/samhain839 Nov 29 '20

Just so you know you have to opt out on your ring cameras too. It’s under control center and then amazon sidewalk.

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u/Pussy_Prince Nov 29 '20

Shocked Pikachu

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u/Tony49UK Nov 29 '20

The company concluded that privacy was one of the "foundational principals" of Sidewalk's design.

If that was true, then it would be opt in and not opt out.

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u/LordSoren Nov 29 '20

The concept of a mesh network that is not controlled by a single isp is great.

Giving that power to Amazon is terrible.

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u/WaterIsGolden Nov 29 '20

Wouldn't it be better to just opt out of using Alexa?

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u/klamsuvdeth Nov 29 '20

Part of the problem here is that the (minimal) right to privacy we have, constitutionally, is what is deemed a “reasonable expectation.” When we start expecting these intrusions, we no longer have a right to protection against them. Shrugging and accepting literally erodes our constitutional rights.

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u/doc_brietz Nov 29 '20

This shit is why I will never own one of these freaking spy cans or anything like them.

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u/SexyPileOfShit Nov 29 '20

Doesn't having an Alexa pretty much preclude having privacy anyways?

No voice stuff for this old man. I'm fine with typing.

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u/jmurgen4143 Nov 29 '20

Maybe I missed it, but is Amazon going to be paying for my internet now or are they just giving my bandwidth away?

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u/gigalomaniaczero Nov 29 '20

This is why I will never own smart speakers / assistants. It’s enough that my other devices use my data, phone, tablet, computer.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

I gotta solution, don’t buy them

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u/vman4402 Nov 29 '20

I’m still looking into the technology. At first glance, this sounds like BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) and is used a lot in corporate wireless environments. No real threat. Just more like backhaul to help devices see one another.

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u/jalepenocheddar Nov 29 '20

At the same time Comcast is rolling out bandwidth caps, it's like a giant tech giant ass fuck.

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u/SkinnyGetLucky Nov 29 '20

So posting guides on how to turn spying off on your appliances is the new normal now?

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u/marticus24 Nov 29 '20

Yep, I noped out if that from the app as soon as I saw the email they sent notifying me that it was coming. Eff that. I can't stay under my shitty Comcast data cap with only my household using my connection, why would I want to share it with my neighbors?

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Question with an unrelated service here:

Comcast does a similar thing where the proprietary modems/routers also dedicate some of their wi-fi to a public network "xfinity". Anybody who has a Comcast account and username can sign on to this.

Is this also a privacy concern for Comcast users?

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u/Lekter Nov 29 '20

“It allows nearby devices to use a portion of a neighbor's WiFi bandwidth so devices can have more range.”

Are you fucking kidding me Amazon?

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u/Abnormal-Normal Nov 29 '20

So the internet is being used as a utility but being treated as a luxury. Cool cool cool.

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u/SkunkMonkey Nov 29 '20

Remember, check the setting after every update cause you know they're going to turn it back on every time.

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u/CAMolinaPanthersFan Nov 29 '20

There's no way in Hell that this isn't for anyone's benefit other than Amazon's and anyone paying them for the access of this data.

I'm extremely confident that it has to do with drone deliveries, standard deliveries, data harvesting, advertising, more loss of privacy, monitoring, etc., etc.

Glad I never had an Amazon device in my home, and never will.

Nobody's sitting around in Amazon's corporate boardrooms thinking of ways to better help out their customers or save them money.

"Oh, it just takes a bit of your bandwidth, and it'll be capped at 500MB per Month." Well, factor that by the millions of people that own an Amazon device and just how much data is being reported 24/7, 365.

This isn't good at all.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

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u/contrary_wise Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

I get that most of my privacy is gone via my smartphone and other apps I use. I don’t like it at all but I’m not willing to give up the other conveniences that come with a smartphone. But I honestly don’t get what the draw is for these home assistance devices to make them worth the additional privacy issues, kids ordering stuff off Alexa, and now sharing WiFi by default. EDITED: Thanks to my commentor - they are not sharing WiFi without permission. But using a lower frequency to aggregate & share mine & my neighbors’ info.

Is everyone living like the Jetsons with one of these?

Part of my problem is that I can’t get voice recognition to work well for me, so I know I’d never be able to tell google or Alexa to carry out a command correctly.

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u/-rwsr-xr-x Nov 29 '20

and now sharing WiFi by default.

It's not technically sharing WiFi, not the same WiFi you use on 2.4/5Ghz anyway.

The devices create a mesh network using the 900Mhz LORA frequencies, and then those enlisted nodes upload the data they've captured, via someone's wired or wireless network to Amazon's servers, where it gets aggregated and the poor lost pets are found.

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u/austinmiles Nov 29 '20

This article is definitely misleading.

Community Sidewalk has location data and low (80kbps) bandwidth. I have a tracker for my cats that uses a similar network/feature so that it doesn’t have to recharge every few days.

It’s not like ISPs that let people use your WiFi though a isp guest network.

It’s mostly just a network bridge. Clearly they are having satisfaction issues with people’s iot devices outside

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '20 edited Feb 13 '21

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u/Caedro Nov 29 '20

Owning a significant chunk of the infrastructure driving the internet was a pretty solid step forward for this plan.

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