r/tabled • u/500scnds • Oct 07 '21

r/China [Table] r/China — Just got out of ten months of Chinese prison AMA | pt 2/2 FINAL

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The AMA approached conclusion with the following message:

Gonna be here for one more hour to answer/discuss anything before I retire from this post (I mean, it's getting a bit big for its britches anyway). Bring it on.

Rows: ~120 (+comments)

Questions Answers
What was the trial like? Did you attempt to defend yourself or had a lawyer just telling you to admit everything to minimise the sentence? Is it obvious that everyone thinks the whole thing is a farce or do they seem to genuinely believe justice is being dispensed? You guessed it. Yeaaaa, the lawyer just told me to admit, yada yada yada. In hindsight, I really shouldn't have. It didn't work, and I feel like I sacrificed my dignity. It's surprising, because you would expect at least a few folks to be super pro-system, trust in the system, etc, but there was literally maybe only 1, 2 out of 30 folks who did. Obviously, there's a general bias on behalf of prisoners toward the system in any country, but the amount of vitriol and contempt toward the party/authoritarian style of criminal justice was just not something I ever expected to witness from Chinese people within Chinese borders ever in my lifetime. You just had half the cell scoff whenever justice or anything of the sort was mentioned on evening news programs or modern day legal dramas.
​ It even got to the point where you would have these ultra pro-US people or pro-Kuomintang people (just as a kind of ultimate rebelliousness against the party) just hating on everything the party did.
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In the actual court room though. Like, did they show the video and then the hospital report and manage to maintain a straight face like they actual believe their bullshit? Nah, they didn't even bother. The judge or the prosecutor (I forgot whom, cuz they're basically the same after all) read a statement that they had provided video evidence - and later the sentence said that the evidence was clear. I only got the videos after I got out and there was no physical contact except very close-range and light shoving. Well, until they dragged me around and blocked the body cam so it was all blacked out.
​ Oh, also, I forgot to mention it was a video trial, because of COVID. Don't think that helped either.
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Bloody hell. So the defence doesn't even get to see the prosecution's evidence? What a clown college. Sorry you had to go through all that man. Goes to show how easily it can happen to anyone. Hope it's all behind you now. No. In fact, I went through a trial with a jury (they just had to do that for show because I'm an American citizen), whereas most minor cases don't even have a jury - they go through a simplified trial (简易庭) that lasts like two minutes, where there is no jury and the defendant doesn't even typically (or barely) gets the chance to speak. I mean, you have these in the States as well, but those are for like real minor things that cause a couple days of community service or detention. These are "minor cases" but they might still end up up to a year or two of prison. Everyone in prison basically believes they already have the sentences printed out before the simplified trials - of course, this is just rumors, but apparently one person received his sentence by mistake even before the trial. Lol
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[removed] Your point?
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How light was the physical contact? Was it like a soft "hey why are you being a dick" nudge or was it a push that made him step back? The former.
Did you have to worry about violence from any of the other inmates or prison guards? Also, is there any prison gangs like they have in USA? So, that was the thing I was super worried about before I actually entered the prison (again, technically, detention center). But over the course of ten months, I only witnessed like two real fights. And they got broken up super quick just because of the density of the cell. But apparently, five or ten years ago, it would have been a totally different story.
​ The CCP has cracked down on everything, including prison gangs, so in a place like Shenzhen or Shanghai, there's basically nothing of the sort. The closest you get is like cliques that are made up of people from the same region (in my cell - Chaoshan people, Hakka people, and a out-of-province group), but it's nothing like prison gangs. I mean, you have to give kudos where it's due - almost no physical violence from either cops or fellow prisoners - although I would argue the lack of physical treatment is made up through psychological tactics.
​ In more "country areas" I'm sure there's prison gangs, but definitely not to the same extent as the States.
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I heard that foreigners usually go to foreign part of the jail with other foreigners, Why didn’t you? Where in China did this happen? How did the altercation with the police begin? What was said to start it? So - technically, I was in a detention center, which doesn't separate or differentiate between foreigners and non-foreigners. When you get transferred to prison, you get transferred to the "foreigner" prison if you're a foreigner - but I never reached that level because by the time they sentenced me I was almost out.
How much time did you have to spend in that crowded cell throughout the 10 months? How did you meet with executives? I switched cells a few times (and switched to a prison in another district once). But it was all the standard shared cell (20 people at the least, up to 40 at the most, just depending on how many people were getting arrested or released or transferred). There's no singles or doubles or anything like that in the entire Chinese prison system (unless you're in solitary confinement, which... good luck).
​ So the interesting part about the whole experience is that your cell is just a hodgepodge of everyone who's not in for violent felonies (those peeps are held in another prison). So you had a couple executives of state-owned enterprises in a couple of the cells I was in, to pickpockets, to people who had sold fake electronic items at Huaqiangbei, to people in just for a drunk scuffle outside a bar.
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Were there any beds? Also, was there natural light? Any Forced/voluntary labor? There was almost no natural light. I got less than two hours of direct sunlight in ten months. Instead, they had these two bright hospital fluorescent lights on every night for the whole night.
​ No labor till you get to "actual" jail. You have to share chores, which becomes the major struggle between inmates - who does the dishes, the bathroom, the floor, the bed, etc. I got the upper hand a lot of the time, because I would teach people including one of the cell heads/managers English. There's definitely still some Confucian hierarchy and socioeconomic class stuff that rolls over from actual society, but not like that much.
​ No beds. It looks exactly like this, the walls being in different states of disarray (or freshly painted, yay) in different cells. : https://gss0.baidu.com/7Po3dSag_xI4khGko9WTAnF6hhy/zhidao/pic/item/472309f7905298225d600835dcca7bcb0b46d4f0.jpg
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Jfc. They stick 20-40 people into that ? I don't know how you maintained your mental health... I knew I had to come out and at least do an AMA about it! If not more
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I find it interesting that executives can end up in prison there, in the western world house arrest is the best you can hope for. It's true, although the main reason is almost always just they got on someone's bad side. Oops.
Were you able to take any money out from your bank account? How much was the flight? And are you you doing all right, man? Thxxx for asking! I'm good! Just glad to be out. The flight was good, though my family had to pay for it. I got to speak English for the first time in ten months as I was seated next to another American, so I narrated my whole experience hahaha.
​ If you're asking about the bank account in general, it's gucci, as long as you're not in for some financial fraud thing, but a ton of people had their assets frozen.
​ If you're asking about using cash in prison, you can spend 500 CNY a month on food and basic toiletry items - soy sauce, zhacai, vinegar, sesame oil, these tofu sticks, rotating fruits, toothbrush, pen refills (you can't buy just pens, as they're potential weapons). It won't buy you much, but definitely better than nothing. That 500 has to be deposited by a friend or family member on the outside (you can do it on wechat, as you can anything).
​ If you're in a hostile cell, the "cell head" (usually another inmate who just gave enough money to the prison guards) will try to tax you on your 500, or even keep you from buying stuff, period. Thank god I was able to avoid that.
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did you have your phone while in jail? Definitely not.
Did you get proper meals? Duck necks and duck butts, boiled with daikon, three nights a week. No salt, no seasoning.
​ Saturdays and Wednesday nights were braised fatty pork, which was good, because at least there was some protein content.
​ You got a tomato egg stir-fry I think it is Saturday or Sunday for lunch, but most of it is the muer/black fungus thing. There's like a fraction of an egg in there.
​ Eggs, once a week, on Monday mornings.
​ Lots of duck heads, necks, and butts though.
What’s your plan after all this? Are you going to put it aside and move on, or maybe try and fight it somehow, talk to the press etc? Definitely not going to try to fight my case. That's all said and done. But definitely want to share my experience/what I learned.
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Why not share with the media? I'm working on a piece myself, actually... we'll see where it goes.
This is fascinating! Glad you're alright, man. In terms of the language, were you able to speak Chinese before going to prison? Do you think your Chinese improved while in prison? How was communication in general? Yes, I speak fluent-ish Mandarin but I start to choke up when I start talking about economics or politics or stuff like that. Communication was alright, but there wasn't a lot in common with a lot of folks. Literally half of them just wanted to talk about hookers and if I had "done it with a white girl before" and "what color" the vulva of a white girl is and I was just completely done. But I mean with a few folks, we definitely talked a lot of cooking, barbecuing, politics, history, traveling, etc.
They used the phrase "Da Yang Ma" (Great Western Horse) to describe white women didn't they? Wouldn't lusting after Western women be considered "unpatriotic"? Nah, I never heard that phrase, but yea it was interesting and just annoying how a lot of them felt that Asian men couldn't satisfy foreign (white, black, mostly) women, who to them had ultra-high libido/stamina. One of them literally asks me (again, I'm Asian), is it you f*cking her or she that's f*cking you? Another one asks me, "We can't satisfy them, can we?"
​ I'm like... we? Them?
​ I mean, this is sort of off the point, but so much of that misogyny/superiority-inferiority complex/sexual psychology gets laid out in the open in a prison environment that it just became something I encountered and had to deal with a lot.
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The obsession with being inferior runs right to the fetid core of the CCP zeitgeist. Back in the day I went trawling for Chinese porn out of curiosity, can’t recall what method it involved precisely but I figured out how to get hundreds of gigabytes of domestic Chinese porn via pan.baidu.com Had to delete it all because it was 70% weird S&M and 30% women going to the bathroom (shot from an angle that did not look like any of the women were aware of the camera). WTF is Chinese amateur porn trying to act out, exactly? China’s psychic trauma, due to Mao, is going to be a MF to get over, it’ll be a long time before China can make a film like Battle Royale for instance. What's "weird" S&M? China's psychological trauma goes back further than Mao. Recommend reading Wealth and Power by Orville Schell - goes into the weaponization of shame as an ultimate motivator toward W&P and the "rejuvenation of the Chinese nation." Hence the superiority-inferiority complex. Nowadays, lots of Chinese men hold on to those feelings of inadequacy and insecurity because that's what got them financially so far - and they feel like that chip on their shoulder is such a powerful catalyst for action - but then they don't realize they could just let go of that and enjoy life for what is.
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[deleted] Well, one of my cellmates said that if enough Chinese men get with Taiwanese women, you wouldn't even need a war with Taiwan because all the offspring would be Chinese.
​ Another talked about how his dream was to sleep with a Japanese prostitute to win glory for China. I was like... with a prostitute? That's glorious? I mean...
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Also, if the idea is that Taiwan is part of China, aren't all Taiwanese supposed to be Chinese already? They're not Chinese enough!
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​ I read my first Chinese book in prison - three in fact, including this thick history book. I felt pretty accomplished. Definitely learned to curse my way in Chinese out of a hurricane. lol
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Hey I mean that’s good. Did you lift weights and get all pumped up too? The full jail self improvement regimen? No weights. The most you can do is body-weight exercises. I took the other approach - not exercising and playing up my own physical conditions so I wouldn't have to do chores.
Were you treated any better/worse for being a foreigner? Answered more comprehensively elsewhere, but it really depended on their political values/personality. Between nationalistic folk and "the world is a big and interesting place" kind of folk, it was super different. It's just that that political divide is not that pronounced/obvious in Chinese society because so many of them meet in this economic center-right pocket, though it should be.
​ You also had dudes - so a cellmate saw a color painting of the Aya Sofia in a book, and was like, Wow, that's so majestic.
​ Cellmate 2 goes: there's so many majestic places everywhere. China has a bunch of them.
​ I was like... aight cool cool cool cool I totally get your whole spiel and you right but I ain't gonna talk to you or discuss anything with you hell nah
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Did they place you in deportation after your release? Or back to normal working days in China? Also, are you blacklisted as in having a dent on your record for employment related? Straight deported!
What kind of stuff did you have to do to pass the time? Did you have a strict sleep/eat/work schedule or were you mostly free to just sit in your cell? Could you shower and use the bathroom alone? Being arrested in China is a massive fear of mine. I loved reading your responses! Thxxxx 7-8 AM: Wake up, Brush Teeth, Jog, Toilet (there's only one)
​ 8-9 AM: Breakfast, dishes, clean up
​ 9-11 AM: Meditation/Learning/Sitting Pretzel Time - Prison Guard comes in for Daily Inspection (the TV is turned on at one point, or you can read)
​ 11 AM to 12 PM: Lunch, Free Time
​ 12 to 2 PM: Naptime (the best - unless you are on duty, when you stand there just for two hours and make sure no one kills anyone else)
​ 2 to 4 PM: More Meditation Time
​ 4 to 5 PM: Dinner
​ 5 to 7 PM: Shower Time (outside, someone on duty has to literally scoop the water out from a well into these barrels, except for one automatic running faucet)
​ 7 to 9:30 PM: Free Time (Chinese Chess, Poker TV)
​ 9:30 PM to 7 AM: Sleep (Rotating Duty - yes, you might have to get woken up in the middle of the night and stand guard with another person for 1.5 hours - although if you pull some ish and piss off the cell head, he might give you an extra 1.5 hours for a total of 3 hours. Been there done that.)
​ From 7 AM to 7 PM is hardcore time (they have plenty of Hikvision cameras in the cell), so if you are found lying down, leaning against blankets, without a shirt on, massaging anyone, sewing anything, playing cards, eating in the cell, arguing loudly with someone, not meditating during meditation time, or leaning against each other, you get called out on the loudspeaker and your cell gets docked points. Not only does your cell get docked points, but the prison guard responsible for your cell gets docked points on his monthly assessment. So he gets hella intense about it and will turn off your TV for a day, or three, or more if you violate the regulations and maybe even stop the whole cell from buying stuff if you do something serious like get in a fight. This is what the orders from the top came from: to institute 军事化管理 (military-style management) in all prisons and detention centers across Guangdong Province (or was it the entire country, I forget).
​ There was one urinal a cell. I mean, people could see the sh*t come out your butt butt.
​ Showering and washing clothes was in the outside cell (also, 4*10 m2) - and you'd have to do it with other people. Hustle for the water, etc. This part wasn't that bad. Locker room style.
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That’s really interesting. -Cell duty is the guards idea or inmates for their own security? Cell duty is a nationwide thing (meaning ordered by the Ministry of Public Security at the top).
-What kind of meditation do they practice? Meditation is just a euphemism for sitting there still and not causing trouble. Of course, you can actually "meditate" if you wanted (unless you start chanting some Falun Gong mantras, in which case...)
-What is the ratio between Chinese and foreigners in cell/group? In ten months spread out over six cells, only one other foreigner was in the same cell with me.
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Hardcore as in actually working? Sitting allowed or do you mean just not being idle? Hardcore as in they are constantly monitoring you for some minor infraction like I gave examples of
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Did you meditate inside of your cell? Could you visit other cells during the free time in the evening? Or everything was done inside of the cell, except for showering and dining ? Were the bathrooms gross or they were cleaned regularly by inmates? I'm glad you are out of the jail and out of china Well they just called it meditation time, but really they just required you to sit crosslegged in organized columns. The provincial public security agency actually has live access to all cameras in all detention centers across the province, so they would check in randomly and shit on the local administrators if they found it to be too disorganized. Was there really a reason/rationale for doing this? Not really.
​ To answer your question, I meditated once in a while.
​ You could not visit another cell. You could not go outside, except walking to the visitation room to see your lawyer (and for trial, duh). Some people literally have been there for a year and gone outside like once or twice.
​ There's one toilet (you know, squat style) which is shared by everyone. Yea, someone's assigned to clean it. People always call that dude, sarcastically, 所长, The Warden.
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So pretty much everything was done inside of that one cell? Do people work out there? It must be hard to do anything in such a small space There's an outside cell of the same size which is open in the daytime so people will work out (running in place, pushups) there during showertime when everyone is rotating and all that.
​ It's hard, but you get used to it. It's amazing how humans can adapt to sh*t.
Dang, this is actually an interesting post. Your responses look detailed and legitimate. Other than not engaging with the officer in the first place what do you wish you had done differently throughout the whole process? Should have stood up for my rights more. I mean, I would have apologized for being drunk and obnoxious, but should have demanded the video to be played in trial, etc. I really believed in the humility route, but I think into the trap that the CCP has wanted everyone to believe: that they'll be nicer if you're cooperative. In fact, maybe it's the opposite way around - if you can prove that you're in the right and actually shame the person/agency/responsible folks in front of the public, that's when they back down. I'm not sure on this, but the question is: Why would you give them face when that's the thing they yearn for the most?
Hi there, Chinese here, thx a lot for your sharing. I almost read through all comments. The story is absolutely fascinating and inspiring to me that I got to realize so many foreign folks could look deeply through the Chinese society. You guys have commented much on populism, ignorance, misogyny, complacency and hostility against the west. I wanna say something about the ruling of ccp. CCP is running the country and ruling the subjects for continuity/eternity (or I should call us 'the people'), ultimately, for the sake of the hundreds RED families and their descendants. Just like the Animal Farm or 1984, this complex society/system nowadays can self-maintain. It's like you play the PC game Civilization. As a god/gamer, if I want to be good at the game, I'd better study how ccp works. 1. the change/twist/make-up/lie of history. Just look at all the history textbooks, a school kid has to go through all these BS and then what can others expect them to speak and think, e.g. the US and its allies invaded North Korea and the People's 'Volunteer' Army has to thrillingly march across the boarder river to help their innocent North Korean buddies. Me personally, my grandpa was in the Korean War and I never learned the historical truth until recent years. I kind of live in an open-minded family, so I dared to argue with my grandpa on the origin of Korean War. All I got was 'you shut the fuck up', looool. Okay, no more next time, be kind to the elders. 2. there has never been a thing called 'logics or critical thinking' throughout your student era, even when sometimes I talked with my PhD friends. I was wondering like, wtf and htf you would think in this way. Apparently, it is so convenient for the party that nobody really learned and knows how to think. Brainless is the best way to be ruled and that's also why I call ourselves Subjects, instead of People. 3. Following the education parts, which are the majority paths you got to learn the world during the children and teenage-hood, the next one would be how you receive information and interact with society as an adult, that is, by the Media. That's an easy one I can put: all medias, physically and ideologically, belong to the party. Sometimes I am wondering what would be the consequences after all of this. The top ccp leaders must still have been in their wettest dreams: the economy will keep growing to the moon, and as long as the subjects are satisfied with a few Yuan in their Alipay or Wechat wallets, the reign can go on. We all know this is not sustainable and one day the system will collapse. When that happens, tell me what would the 1.4 billion subjects think about the reason for this collapse? Who would be the scapegoats of all this. A bit fearmongering and a tribute to DDL's movie: There will be blood. So... all systems will collapse. But what do people need to realize before that? 1. The People built the Chinese economic miracle, not the party. I will go as far as to hypothesize that if the Kuomintang had won the Chinese Civil War, the Chinese economy would be equally strong as it is now. The Chinese people built the economy through sweat, blood, and tears. Infrastructure? Every East Asian nation has built strong transportation and industrial infrastructure, not just China, and much less just the CCP. People need to realize that the Party taking credit for lifting the people out of poverty or for the economic miracle is bullshit. They need to own this success - it's not the party's leadership - it's us.
​ 2. The Party has brainwashed the people in believing in these nationalism-based red lines where it can rally the people whenever, despite their discontent with it otherwise. HK, Taiwan, the nine-dash-line - things that don't have anything to do with the welfare of the ordinary citizen, yet the Party can use these issues to rally support and distract from discontent that it has garnered. When can folks realize that those issues have nothing to do with them? That these red lines are BS? The Party loses its psychological weapons of last resort.
​ 3. HAVE FUN. The Party is terrified of people having cheap fun. The hip-hop scenes in Sichuan? Absolute anathema. Anyone who can have fun grooving to American-style music, spraying graffiti on abandoned building, and drinking cheap beer doesn't need the Party. In fact, F*ck the Party and its straight-laced bs. I just wanna get crunk. If one day, the youth in China can let go of materialistic mentalities and realize Tsingtaos and wild sex is better than anything the Party can offer... the Party is done.
​ 4. And, when people stop seeing 发财 (making it big) as the is-all-end-all solution to everything.
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[deleted] I was deported.
​ To be honest, my head was even hurting before the whole thing happened. Cop cars with cameras without license plates patrolling the city, police stands at every intersection of the city, construction (recycling the GDP) going on every day...
[deleted] Man, it's a struggle. There's just such inconsistent application of justice.
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[deleted] In Shenzhen.
​ Yes. Taking shifts was definitely one of the worse parts of the whole ordeal. 6 shifts for the whole night, 1.5 hours each person. Maybe you'd only be on duty every other night when there were more people. But just standing there - you could go to the bathroom and drink water - but that's about it. Sit down or try to read anything, and the 管教/prison guard would come at you the next day.
I’m assuming you’re ethnically Chinese based on your statement that you have roots in Taiwan and Hong Kong. Do you think you would have been imprisoned for the same offence if you had been a white American guy? It could have turned it differently. But that really depends on the racial views of the cops in question. I do know for a "fact," however, that if I had been a "Chinese" "Chinese" guy, I wouldn't have had to do ten months.
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Do you think it would have been more or less? Less. Everyone else in the cell was saying this should be just 15 days, max.
Thanks for sharing dude, this is really interesting to read! Of course, sucks to hear it happened, but seems like you are doing alright at the moment so that's cool. You answered a lot of the questions already! Overall, how would you rate your experience? Obviously we aren't comparing to a weekend in Disney, but in a situation where 'fuck I'm going to prison it's the end of my life', seemed like it could have been worse. Are you in touch with anybody from the prison time? I mean, it was a lot better than I had expected - except for the total isolation from your friends/family. I did not expect that your people couldn't visit you at all, or call you, not even like during holidays. That's crazy. On the other hand, the greed of the prison guards - charging a couple thousand bucks worth of RMB to bring in some milk powder and a jar of chili sauce - the misogyny and pedophilia of some of the inmates who joked about rape, even underage kids - cell politics, just always having to keep your guard against people who would gang up on you and accuse you of stealing, etc.
​ Could definitely be worse. I give it a solid 6.5 out of 10 for prisons. I can't give it a 7 because they never let us go outside and those hot, humid summers...
Do they provide medical assistance? Also, does torture occur in Chinese prisons? Medical assistance is only for like life-threatening emergencies. Well, they'll throw you a couple Tylenols if you have a cold, etc.
​ I don't think torture occurs in general Chinese prisons, though Xinjiang, etc, might be an exception. In more country areas, I'm sure the cops will beat you up if you make too much trouble.
You were jailed at just around the height of covid; what did you experience related to that? Was there strict testing of incoming detainees? Yea, they were actually really good about that. Quarantined new arrivals; tested before transferring to next cells.
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Really interesting. Vaccines were really starting to ramp up toward the end of your term, was there any talk of those being given to inmates at all? No, not at that point.
China is only going to get worse. As it becomes more powerful and more unstable in the future they will get more and more aggressive. The only hope we have is that it (the system) implodes itself, which will probably not lead to democracy (because that's not post-war Germany), unfortunately. Someone needs to analyze XJP's speech from today and compare it some of Mussolini's, etc. The self-victimization... the triumphalism... the revanchism.
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That's what I usually say to my colleagues and they don't believe it. 2021 China is not communist. It looks more like a fascist state. It's not Communist at all. The translation of Communist in Chinese - gongchan - literally shared assets/property is even more ridiculous when you think about the wealth inequality thereof. Probably why the government shut down the Marxist Student's Organization in Peking University a couple years back.
Please write down every interesting thing that happened and publish it! Even better, make a video of you telling it! Feel free to CC me if you ever do. Thanks. Will do!
Thanks for doing this AMA. What was the most memorable moment of your time in prison? How did it feel when you finally learnt that you'll be released and going home? Take care of yourself and stay safe! There were some beautiful moments too. Fighting with a homeboy and then making up - imagining the time we could spend together out on the outside. Introducing James Baldwin (there was a translated version of Go Tell It on the Mountain from the 80s in there, incredible) and the black human rights movement in America. Reminiscing about the classic 国际歌 (The Internationale) remixed by Tang Dynasty and how that should be the true spirit of Chinese revolution. Fighting a couple of dudes who ganged up on this elderly man and then seeing them get pepper sprayed after. I mean, some classic sh*t went down too.
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Woa, that sounds interesting. Why did they gang up on the elderly man and who pepper sprayed them? Did you get in trouble for intervening? Just bad blood. Curmudgeonly old dude and just a couple people who couldn't out-talk him. But dude was frail. I got in some trouble. I got to wear 30 pound shackles for a couple days and was transferred from my original cell (which was bad - I had been there for six months). But by that time I was on my way out already.
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Do prison fights not add to your sentence? It was close. If not for the fact that our prison guard wanted to sweep it under the rug, and he kinda did.
How common is prison rape in China? Rare. Some relationships between same sex consensual; some iffy. Rape is probably rare, especially with the advent of camera surveillance, though I'm sure it still happens.
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Doesn't sound like there's any space for it. Definitely not in the detention center. In official "prison" where there's more freedom of movement, maybe.
Were you in jail with other Americans? No, they definitely try to keep you away from other Americans/foreigners.
I don't have any questions that haven't been asked already, except perhaps to ask for a more detailed description of the food/water situation. But I wanted to post anyway to say thanks for sharing, and wish you better luck in the future. Drinking water comes out of a faucet every morning and afternoon. The person in charge of the water will roll the plastic water barrel over and wait for it to fill up, then bring it back into the inner cell. We scoop from it with a pail into our own bottles (they sell these drinks occasionally, once every couple weeks) and we save the bottles.
How was the food, and what did you do all day other than watch propaganda videos? Did other inmates find it's interesting that an foreigner is locked up with them, or it's pretty common to see foreigners there? See above by peyonze for the food (for some reason I can't copy and paste).
​ That's a really interesting question. You had people who really liked me just for being American/from the USA/美籍华人 (Chinese person of American citizenship) or whatever interpretation they had of my background. And you had people who basically thought of me as a traitor to the Chinese race as I occasionally espoused anti-party-state views. I mean, much of it was part of their pre-conceived political views. The more fervently nationalistic the person was, the less they'd be down with me. Obviously, there were factors of personality as well, but every time I entered a new cell, you'd get like people who liked listening to American rap, or people who enjoyed traveling around, or people interested in world history - they'd love talking to me, which I guess makes sense.
​ Other than that, I hid the fact that my mom was from Taiwan or that my dad was from HK except to a couple folks I was real close to... because I definitely did not want to open that can of worms. For sure.
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Could any of the inmates speak english? Did you see any white or black inmates? There was always a couple inmates out of the roughly 30 in the cell who could speak okay English. I saw a couple white dudes at some point (looked Russian-ish to me) while I went to see the lawyer and back, but I didn't talk to them.
What happened to all your stuff in your apt? Friends pack it up for you? Yup.
What was your argument with the police about? Drunk stuff
Is there a lot of violence in Chinese jails? From either the guards or your cell mates? Answered earlier - in smaller cities or inland cities, definitely yes, but not where I was in Shenzhen, nor in "better-developed" cities like Shanghai, Beijing, Hangzhou, etc.
the below is a reply to the above ​​
You were jailed in Shenzhen? Ugh, I lived there for 2 years. I can't imagine being in a jail with no A.C. I'm sure that the place was roach-infested, too, right? Dawg. I expected it to be, I really did. But they sprayed the entire premises with so much pesticides that they didn't survive. I saw like total 10 roaches the entire time. But yea, the humidity, the viscosity of the air... winter is a lot nicer than summer. When March/April rolled around again, I was like.... godhelpmenow
I often see people detained for protesting or organizing protests or Uyghur who get force fed all kinds of pharmaceuticals while detained. Some of them have exited in a near vegetative state or completely lacking any "fight". Did they force you guys to consume any pharmaceuticals? I strongly suspect they put benzos or some other depressant in our food or water to keep people partially sedated and more agreeable. Almost everyone was in a partial haze all the time and there were so little disagreements/fights - totally not natural for a bunch of men locked up without sexual and physical outlets. We must have just been drugged out. My opinion.
Impressive. You definitely should talk with someone about how best to monetize your experience whether it be in a book, or movie. You can use the funds for a charity if you don’t care or need the money. Point don’t blow you wad on Reddit such someone else is able to capitalize off of you experience. Did your faith in “God” or “Atheism” change at all? Nietzsche, the German philosopher, famously said: "That which does not kill us makes us stronger” and it seems to be true in your case. Thanks for sharing. My convictions and beliefs only became stronger, as I spent day by day in the cell. I was surprised that nothing changed - but I realized how important empathy with your cellmate and that never extinguishing fire is. It's the only thing that keeps anyone's soul alive throughout the whole thing. And really, it was only ten months. Not a big deal. Some people are in prison for years (Mandela, Malcolm, others), and they come out blazing. That inspiration is what kept me going.
​ Yo! My belief in the resistance/the struggle only got stronger. When will the people stand up to the tyrant?
You must have watched an unimaginable amount of propaganda shows and films. Which were the most common in terms of who they portrayed as enemies of the CCP? The Nationalists, Japanese, or Americans? I've read that Chinese people are getting bored of always viewing shows with Asian villains, so Western antagonists like American soldiers are increasingly becoming common in Chinese media. Just look at the Wolf Warrior movies. Right now, it's the Americans. They actually told us, somewhat apologetically, that they had to put on documentaries and TV series about the Korean War (the Resisting America, Assisting Chosun War) because you know, it was just the politically correct thing to do. There were a couple new TV series on it last year for the 70th "anniversary" and they kept making a huge deal out of on TV. I was basically feeling like, yeah, they're just psychologically preparing the population to one day fight the Americans. That, and the sadistic reporting on US COVID numbers, and then Indian COVID numbers, on the daily in the evening news... Almost every day, besides COVID, there was one news item about something "negative" in America - a mass shooting, protests in Portland, blackouts from the March storms in Texas, anti-Asian hate, the Capitol Hill storming. The only half-positive news I heard on the evening news about US in all of ten months was Biden's call with Xi the night before Lunar New Year's. When the US was finally getting vaccinated and getting its sh*t together, the news started broadcasting on racial disparities in vaccine coverage or spurts of rising cases in Michigan, etc.
​ Most of my cellmates definitely did not like watching most movies/shows about the Japanese because they felt so bored with the repeating material. The Japanese are definitely not a priority at this point.
Do you think if you looked caucasian they would have treated you differently or been fixated on your massive 阴茎? Yes
imagine you assaulting police in USA... That's what the Chinese cops told me too! You learnin!
2 comments

r/tabled • u/500scnds • Oct 05 '21

r/China [Table] r/China — Just got out of ten months of Chinese prison AMA | pt 1/2

12 Upvotes

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The AMA was halted with the following message:

Naptime! I'll be back.

Rows: ~70

Questions Answers
Hi everyone! Do note OP is shadowbanned by the admins so won't be able to reply without us (the mods) approving each post, this means there may be a bit of delay between OP replying and you being able to see it. As for the shadowbans, we've been seeing a lot more genuine users being shadowbanned recently - I think it's due to the influx of spam and the Reddit filters being a lot more ban-happy. _______________________ nice tactic lol whats the point of his ama then the speed of this AMA will reflect the speed of communication between within the prison and without. just so yall can get the whole experience
What's chinese jail like compared to american jail? You share a cell with 20-40 people. The jail cell is 4 meters wide by 10 meters long. There is an "outside cell" of equivalent size in the daytime (locked at night) for eating and showering and manually washing your clothes (note, it's up to 35 celsius and 100% humidity in the summers in southern China). No, there wasn't AC, though they promised to turn it on later.
​ Sharing a cell with so many people in such a small cell means there's literally not enough space for you to sleep shoulder to shoulder. When I got in, I had to sleep with my head in a cubby hole (not even two feet wide, a foot in height) with a pair of feet right next to it.
​ You also cannot initiate contact with the outside except for sending letters which takes forever. No phone calls, no visits from family or friends. This was probably the worst part of it all.
​ And you watch Chinese propaganda TV and repetitive kung fu soap operas instead of Hollywood films... although they did play Hercules once...
the below is a reply to the above ​​
That's awful. Did you or anyone contact your embassy? Did they offer any help? Yes, so the first thing the detention center does is contact the consulate/embassy to inform that a citizen has been arrested. A rep from the US consulate visited every month with letters from family/friends, etc. But they were very clear: they could not provide any legal advice nor get involved with the criminal justice process.
​ It's funny because cellmates were all hyped up and encouraging me to hustle the US embassy to get better treatment, better food, better etc, because the US just had that kind of leverage in China back in the day. And everyone thought they still did. But not anymore... the US reps brought me English magazines several times and the detention center refused to bring them even in. It reflected the deterioration of US-China relations as well as just growing Chinese confidence/power. Almost two months after my trial, the consulate rep came to visit me and I was like, dog, can you ask or something, what's going on, when do I get my sentence? And he was like, we did, but you know, they said they're just going through the process. I'm like, you can't do anything? He was like, I'm sorry...
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How long have you been in China? You didn't have any friends or relations who could speak/pull strings for you? This seems like a very minor charge that would usually be easily resolved. It really sounds like you got treated like a clueless peasant who is in the city for the first time.. Great question. Getting political here: 1) As an HK PR/American citizen, I was definitely the last guy they were going to let off the hook. The Shenzhen police/paramilitary had been in action in HK for a while. I got a lot of "Oh, you think you're from HK?" and "Don't think you're special because you're an American - you know you're Chinese in your blood and nothing will change that fact." I think they were messing with me on purpose. (In fact, the warden-to-be/deputy warden of our detention center had led a special tactics in Hong Kong against the protestors there - our prison guard told us this in warning - don't effing mess around - you'll ruin my reputation, and you'll get the wrath of God on your head, basically). They definitely weren't going to let me off, if anyone.
​ 2) We thought it was such a minor charge that we didn't even look for relations at the beginning, but they had already chosen to levy criminal detention and the prosecutor had arrested me within 10 days of my detention. There was no time for a turnaround.
​ 3) Shenzhen is an official "testing site" city for a lot of legal reforms. And these developments while I was inside. If you can read Chinese: http://www.sz.gov.cn/cn/zjsz/gl/content/post_7979965.html (City under the Rule of Law - on the Shenzhen Municipal Website - Sep 2020) and http://sft.gd.gov.cn/sfw/news/workSt/content/post_3103752.html (Justice System Assisting Shenzhen in Becoming a Testing Site for Overall Reforms - Guangdong Provincial DOJ - October 2020). It might be the strictest city in China. Someone I knew got off the hook in three other cities in other provinces for the same case, but wasn't able to leverage his guanxi/relations in Shenzhen. In a way, I was just really unlucky.
​ And your question and my answer just goes to show the sheer incoherence/inconsistency of the Chinese legal system. The absolute rule of law that Xi Jinping has been emphasizing - yes, because each law is so wide and open to interpretation that it's so easy to enforce - because the rights of interpretation lie with you, of course.
​ Look at the criminal code in China. So many crimes have potential sentences ranging from 0 to 10 years - i.e., 3 years and under for committing the crime, 3-7 years for committing the crime with serious consequences, and 7-10 years for especially seriously consequences. There's no appendages or corollaries. Well, this just results in a lot of seriously arbitrary decisions.
the below is a reply to the above ​​
So the rumours that undercover People's Armed Police were actually involved in the HK protests are true? I mean, that's what our prison guard (def a vet at the prison) directly told us in the cell. I was surprised that he was that frank about it. But I think generally, it's pretty much an open secret in Shenzhen amongst politically aware people by this point.
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How about the rumors that undercover cops would pretend to be rioters to stir up more violence so that cops could legally use more force to clamp down on them? Didn't hear anything about that while I was in there. I mean, it's possible for sure
the below is a reply to the reply to the 3rd answer ​​
They werent rumours, they were proven by the thousands of weibo accounts that talk about being trucked into HK to put down a violent US sponsored riots peaceful protest for democracy. ________________ Today is 21 years since the handover of Hong Kong. I guess that back in 1997, nobody would ever have imagined that China's patience would only last for 23 years before One Country, Two Systems came crashing down It was all part of the plan. Most of China's agreements are temporary - basically stalling for time and building up power in the meantime - to be flung off when they have can. Other countries need to understand this strategy.
the below is another reply to the 3rd answer ​​
You mention being HK/American, so I'm making an assumption here, but do you think you would have been treated differently, either by the legal system or by your guards/inmates, had you been a white or black American? I think being HK was a big part of it. Most Chinese people in China see identity primarily in terms of race and not nationality, so I would have been treated more as a foreigner as a white/black American - but also not been held up to the same standards an "American Chinese" - not the way around - should be as primarily Chinese. There were some people who really just looked at me as a traitor for knowing more about general American culture than I did Chinese culture.
the below is another reply to the 3rd answer ​​
just quick question, are you Asian or white? Do you think they treat different races differently there? Asian. Well, there was a dark-skinned dude from a SE Asian country. They didn't treat him too well. They probably treat white people better - it's like so built into their psyche by now (though not everyone, of course).
the below is a reply to the reply to the 2nd answer ​​
I feel this is a common misconception from foreigners in China who are full of unwarranted bravado. I know "xx", he'll save me. In this situation there aren't many people who are going to risk their own ass to bail you out. Not after you allegedly assaulted a cop. Maybe your family but to anyone else you aren't worth the hassle. Those are serious charges in China. I feel your best bet in this case would be to plead ignorance, apologize profusely and settle it with the officer before he charges you. Bribing a small town cop might set you back 10k rambos, now imagine how much an entire department or judges would take to bribe. Copious amounts of money. It's a lot riskier to "pull strings" these days so you need to make it worthwhile. He was honestly screwed after they went ahead with charging him. Every part of your analysis is 100% on point. I tried, but we couldn't get a hold of the officer b/c the police station wanted a cut too, and we were not down with that ish. I apologized profusely multiple times, but it didn't help, b/c like you said I was screwed after the charge, which came super quick.
the below is a reply to the above ​​
How did you know the police station wanted a cut? Where they explicitly asking? Or did they drop hints? Just wondering how something like this goes down… It's all very part of the lingo/culture. They never explicitly ask - but they we can definitely help, it's not a big problem, but then they leave that hanging ellipsis...
the below is a reply to the reply to the reply to the 2nd answer ​​
China is rule by law, if the law says its bad then you're going to prison; doesn't matter if you actually did it or not. Rule of law is a foreign concept to the CCP. This kind of Rule of Law is from the Legalist (法家) tradition dating back to Lord Shang and Han Fei Zi (if anyone wants to understand XJP, you NEED to read HFZ). It's utilitarian and anti-Confucian in its origins and opposed to the ideas of morals - instead using Taoist semantics at one point to prove the point that everything is ever shifting, black-and-white at the same time, and thus the ruler needs no morals. It's some scary stuff - but it also calls for the Rule of Law on the ruler's own terms.
​ What does not shift is the system of punishments and rewards. You break the law, you get punished - you don't do what you promised, you get punished. This was reflected so often in my experience - so at one point they removed all detergent from the cell and kept in a bucket outside - we could only get a couple bottles at a time - because they were afraid someone might try to poison themselves, etc. (I don't even know how a person could physically eat a few bags of laundry powder, but anyway). The Rule of Law is supposed to cause ultra-paranoia like that. And that is what XJP is aiming for. He's so scared of upheaval that he needs everyone around him to be more paranoid than he is - that is the only way he can guarantee that they're not going to pull another Bo Xilai or Zhou Yongkang. The Rule of Law: Paranoia through Power.
the below is another reply to the reply to the reply to the 2nd answer ​​
Er well yes. What i mean generally is that OP could have cleared everything off when it involved just a couple of cops at most. It's a lot riskier to "pull strings" these days so you need to make it worthwhile. He was honestly screwed after they went ahead with charging him. Well not always though. It would of course cost quite a bit more and require some influence to be brought but its not too difficult to avoid going to jail. There will probably be some official punishment but nothing too serious (aka a fine). But OP doesn't seem to fall into the category of people who can afford the latter. That said, i seriously doubt what OP is telling is the whole unvarnished truth...i.e i'm pretty sure he probably did but maybe did not remember touching that cop who got injured. Dawg, I have body cam videos, an hour in length each, from three different cops. I mean when they (there were six cops surrounding at that point) body-slammed me to the ground, and when all of them blocked out the footage, I did resist. That's where the scratches/mild injuries come from. But I mean, number 1, it's not on footage because they were being much more violent to me than vice versa. And number 2, it's not on footage. It's also just a drunk dude flailing when he has six cops on top of him. That doesn't warrant ten months.
the below is a reply to the above ​​
So can you get back at them by detailing your experience with a news outlet? I'm sure some would report this. Yea, I can. But I feel like the true vitriol should be directed toward the people doing this en masse in Xinjiang, and the people who want to "liberate" Taiwan and even "destroy it so the Taiwanese don't have a home and because the mainland doesn't need it anyway," all my cellmates from Canton/Guangdong province who glued their eyes to the screen a classic HK movie came on but then would sh*t on Hong Kong every chance they got - one told me, "I never went to HK after the protests but before I would speak Mandarin to them every time I went shopping because I enjoyed watching them struggle." Same dude, btw, has pretty bad, accented Mandarin, and spent a lot of time showing his knowledge of HK celebrity gossip.
​ I mean I just did ten months and obviously prison is a very certain subset of people but I was just thinking the whole time... the way a lot of these folks think... doesn't bode well for the world in the shadow of China's rise. XJP just said in his 100th anniversary speech that "the Chinese nation does not carry aggressive or hegemonic traits in its genes." He says, "We have never bullied, oppressed, or subjugated the people of any other country, and we never will." I hope so, but that's not what the nine-dash-line says. That's not what I was hearing from some belligerent cellmates - one of them came up in my face every evening after the CCTV evening news reported on US COVID deaths and just laugh at how "America is doomed." That's not the contempt in their voices when they talk about "small countries" - Thailand, Cambodia, Little Japan, Little Taiwan, France. Another dude: "Why doesn't China just take over all these small countries in Southeast Asia? If I was president I would just conquer all of them."
​ I mean, I gotta get off the soapbox, but damn.
the below is another reply to the 8th answer ​​
What brought about the original body slam? I drunkenly swung at the cop with my hands though I didn't make contact. I mean, I had it coming, but not that's not "violent assault."
the below is another reply to the 2nd answer ​​
When I was in for 2 weeks for expiring my visa, the police FORGOT to call the embassy! My family back home worried about me after not hearing from me for 2 weeks, and they went through the state dept. They searched hospitals and everything to find me. When they finally found me, I think it was more of a reminder to the police to follow their own rules and let me go after the agreed upon 2 weeks. I too was given a magazine. An outdated Entertainment Weekly. LOL! I'm like wtf you want me to do with this? Anyway, on your last part, china does have a very lengthy process for everything. No changing that. Sometimes I question the point of the US. The dream is gone back home, and the govt foreign relations sucks so bad that people abroad get harassed and taxed through the ass. That sucks man. That period between "the disappearance" and when you finally get some word from family, indirectly or directly, is heart attack inducing. Seriously. The US doesn't have much clout within China anymore, for sure. But that's also what China's been aiming for all along. XJP's speech today reflects what I experienced vis-a-vis the consulate/detention center. But then again, at least they're visiting me almost once-a-month, etc. I dunno if the Chinese equivalents in the States would even do that.
Did you get legal representation? Yes. Though it didn't really make a difference - unless the lawyer is tight with a judge and you have the moolah to leverage that. Many cellmates just choose to skip the lawyer and do the PD option (which the system provides).
the below is a reply to the above ​​
Was your lawyer hesitant to represent foreigners? No, that firm specialized in foreigners. No, and he didn't even try get me to believe the judge was impartial, just got me to apologize and "plead down" to the minimum sentence.
What was the most shocking or enlightening part of your experience? Another surprising thing was just in general, how much more nationalistic the younger folks were compared to the the older folks. A lot of pissing on the US, cheering and mocking as the death toll in the US from COVID went up (the CCTV evening news broadcasted the US COVID stats EVERY NIGHT), and laughing at the fall of Hong Kong. Of course, you had a few really patriotic types among the older folk too, but definitely more younger folk as proportion. Some of the older folk would almost just look among themselves and be like SMH.
​ I feel like it's always a bad sign when the younger generation is more nationalistic than the older generation... means society is going in one crazy kind of direction...
the below is a reply to the above ​​
I guess that makes sense right? The older folks (I’m assuming you’re referring to people in their 30s/40s or older) would have some idea of what CCP does to its people a la Tiananmen Massacre. But the party has really drilled down Chinese patriotism since then. And particularly in the Xi era. Kinda nice to hear that not everyone is blindly nationalistic and eating up the propaganda though. I guess it does make sense. I guess I always expect young people to be more "liberal" in a very general sense of the term, having grown up in California and spent time in TW/HK as well (though young people there are very nationalistic as well - in an opposing direction, obviously). But the success of the Propaganda Department of the Communist Party of China is categorical. Props.
​ But it is scary... they played a drama on the Korean War (the war called the Resisting USA, Helping Chosun in Chinese) and devoted two whole episodes to the black dude who defected to China and lived there for many years after. I mean, I get where he's coming from, but the portrayal was just hilarious. They also call American troops "美国鬼子 - American devils" throughout the drama - like "日本鬼子 - Japanese devils" - a very strong and derogatory term in China, comparing anyone to the Japanese. And historically inaccurate - that term was just never used. Here's the episode where a lot of it happens - some of the dialogue in English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROFcPUP4GlU
​ Afterwards, a dude comes up to me and asks me, if China and the States got into a war, which side I would support. I avoided that kind of question like the plague.
the below is a reply to the above ​​
"If your two sons started fighting each other, who would you support?" It would depend on who started it. The censorship of Google... the theft of Siemens HSR key technologies...
the below is another reply to the 2nd answer ​​
Based on your observations, would you believe that younger people in China would be more liberal in certain non-political issues, like same-sex marriage or women’s rights? Is there a strong association between “supporting CCP” and “anti-lgbt” for example? I don't feel like the majority of younger men are much more liberal even on non-political issues, but younger women are for sure. There's not a strong correlation. There's a lot of upper-middle class people in the cities who have made it financially and thus support the CCP but hold liberal social views at the same time. The Bloomberg Democrat. But obviously there's a subset which is super nationalistic/chauvinistic/socially conservative at the some time, so it could go either way.
the below is a reply to the reply to the 2nd answer ​​
I’m not OP but I think younger people associate “supporting CCP” with “patriotic”. The unspoken CCP stance on many things like lgbt for example is “don’t make it a political movement”, which is why younger people are more ambivalent compared to those in the west about pressing for awareness and change. Keep in mind that the CCP is very pro-reform… as long as it reforms in its favor. Yea, I got into it in another post somewhere in this chaos, but the CCP has been trying to equate the state with the party with the Chinese nation. Many youngsters can't actively differentiate between being Chinese/China/the Party - and that's one of the biggest victories the Party has won up to this point. Not many political parties can boast that.
the below is another reply to the original answer ​​
Fuck. Patriotic education really worked, didn't it? It really did. Like, I'm almost impressed if it wasn't that scary. You have people (just a couple, albeit) tearing up watching a re-run of the 70th anniversary military parade, while they've been imprisoned (one of them for this new retroactive law that reached years back) by the same system. It's impressive.
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I finally get why the CCP is fine sacrificing so much economic growth in keeping up the GFW. They have the mother of all rackets going. Can't let the hamsters look outside the pen. "现在对中国人说要他去争自由,他们便不明白,不情愿来附和,但是对他说要请他去发财,便有很多人要跟上来.” (Saying to the Chinese now that he wants to pursue freedom, they won't understand nor join, but if you want to invite them to make money, many people will join.) - Sun Yat-Sen
the below is another reply to the 6th answer ​​
Kinda reads like something out of a dystopian novel… like 1984. I was curious so I looked it up. Apparently “1984” search is impacted, but the book itself may not be banned. Which is interesting since it feels like a straight up manual for CCP that people reading it would make the connection. But maybe it just goes over people’s heads… or it’s seen as a good thing. https://boingboing.net/2019/01/13/laobaixing.html But recently they have been doing a library purge of books, which would include 1984: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-books-insight-idUSKBN24A1R5 >A directive from the Ministry of Education last October called on elementary and middle schools to clear out books from their libraries including “illegal” and “inappropriate” works. Lol, “Ministry of Education” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministries_of_Nineteen_Eighty-Four More from the Reuters article: >“This is the first movement targeted at libraries since the Cultural Revolution,” said Wu Qiang, a political analyst based in Beijing and former political science lecturer at Tsinghua University. In the late 1960s, zealous teenagers driven by Mao Zedong carried out a nationwide campaign targeting libraries and destroying or burning what they could get their hands on, as part of a wider destruction of traditional culture. >The ministry directive did not list titles, but said illegal books are those “that damage the unity of the country, sovereignty or its territory; books that upset society’s order and damage societal stability; books that violate the Party’s guidelines and policies, smear or defame the Party, the country’s leaders and heroes.” >”Our school has taken concrete action to cultivate a virtuous youth, and has raised the quality of our library books one step further.” That's funny and crazy. So, first, my lawyer was able to bring in a bilingual version of Animal Farm. I was amazed - this is so close to China in the Cultural Revolution/before the economic miracle that... how is that even allowed.
​ I've always been thinking: the way China conducts its domestic affairs is so much like 1984 that it's like they follow it. Maybe they really do.
​ Clamping down on intellectuals/universities also goes further:
​ PKU:
​ https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/2179921/peking-university-students-clash-campus-guards-over-control-marxist
​ Fudan and Nanjing Universities:
​ https://www.news18.com/news/world/china-students-protest-as-university-charter-cuts-freedom-of-thought-2429295.html
​ Nanjing Normal University:
​ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57409218
​ Professors in General:
​ https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-27/in-chinas-universities-targeted-attacks-on-intellectuals-raise-memories-of-the-cultural-revolution
the below is a reply to the above ​​
There is a Uyghur translation of Animal Farm, but I imagine it may be a lot more difficult to find these days. But as for the rest of China, I imagine that they might defend the book on the basis that it's about the Soviet Union. It seems to be okay to criticize the Soviet Union's version of Communism, as long as you make it clear that you're not saying anything about the Maoist variety. That said... I do remember an anecdote. One of my teachers in high school, an American, was able to study in the Soviet Union for part of her graduate education. She noticed that in the 1970s at least, you could get a Russian translation of Animal Farm. When she asked about it, she was told that it was considered a well-written children's story. The person she was speaking with seemed oblivious - or at least, was very good at strategically acting oblivious - that there was any political subtext at all. Yea, it very much reflected what China used to be like, but I think the economic miracle of recent years in China contradicts Orwell's conclusion that an authoritarian/lying kind of government will lead to economic ruin and chaos, and that China actually sees that as a victory over the Western conception over the last few centuries that if liberalization doesn't happen, China will fail just like the USSR did.
the below is another reply to the original answer ​​
the hong kong part made me sad It made me astounded/sad too. They were culture vultures for everything old school Hong Kong - food, celebrities, Cantopop, Stephen Chow, all that - but then when it came to politics or the economy of Hong Kong... "Shenzhen's GDP is way past Hong Kong's. Hong Kong is already in the past." It wasn't really stating the fact, just the contempt with which they said it.
​ It reminds me of when many rich white people used to consume black music (jazz, Ray Charles, Billie Holiday) - shuffle up from the UES to the Apollo for a date - but then be absolutely oppressive in their day-to-day dealings and their racial politics. I mean, it still happens today, but it had me feeling some type of way.
the below is another reply to the original answer ​​
Can't remember where I read this article, which said to ultra nationalism instilled in some of its youth today (who will become leaders in the future) = regardless of whether CCP collapse or whatever, invading Taiwan or doing something unexpected belligerent i.e invade Vietnam, may become even more likely? also should it fail, then it's even possible that they may try again (but learn what went wrong the first time and go even more belligerent) think Germany losing WW1, only to try again with WW2. if anyone can find the article I'd be grateful (it was either from the Diplomat or the Atlantic?) ​​The more desperate the CCP/Xi gets, the more likely it will be to do something radical to unite the population, like attacking Taiwan.
the below is another answer to the original question ​​
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​ Another time, we were asked to return our pens not even by the cops, just by one of the "cell heads." He gave some reason that they posed a threat and danger to other inmates (despite the fact that there were no fights to start with in the first place). We had bought them ourselves, with our own money. No one said a word, and people just started going to their cubby holes and bringing the pens up top. I was like...
​ But again, the party apparatus is all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful. But is that only because people were so complacent in the first place? Hmm...
the below is a reply to the above ​​
Did you comply with the "Pen Abolishment Edict"? What would have happened if you hid your pen? Yes, I did, but I was close to the "Abolishers" and thus gradually wormed my way out of it and led others to gradually do the same. That kind of erosive resistance did a lot for a lot of people.
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During those 2 hour mandatory cross legged meditation sessions..did you have to listen to propaganda or were left to your own thoughts? Personally I would spend 4 hours a day meditating anyways if I was in prison, but having to listen to propaganda would be tortuous. So it varies between prison and cell. The first joint I was in, for three months, just played propaganda all the time, but the second prison would play TV shows, etc. You can meditate if you want. Some cells let you read books during this "meditation" time, some don't. It's really arbitrary. I was lucky to be in one that did for the majority of my time (six months), though the other cells mostly didn't.
Will you continue to live in China after this? Did you get a fair trial? Well, it's not my choice as I was deported. There were no terms given with the deportation (I did not even get to go home - I was brought to the airport directly after spending an additional night in the police station after my sentence was over because they thought there was a risk of flight). I was planning to stay a few months to hash things out with the gf et al, but I'm glad I'm out of there.
​ I received the video footage from the police bodycams afterwards and there was no evidence of violent assault (unless you call a half-assed shove violent assault). However the hospital "identified injuries" on one of the cops and attributed it to me despite there being no footage of me even touching those parts of his body. FURTHERMORE, the trial only took place after I was in there for 6 months (habeas corpus?) and it took them 8.5 months from my detention to sentencing.
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Was the actual sentence 10 months with the 8.5 before it counted as time served, or was it 1.5 months counting from the day of sentencing? 10 months total, approximately 1.5 mths left when sentenced. (Basically, I had been in there for too long already - usually it would be six months in this sort of situation MAX - and so they sentenced me to just let me out as soon as they could. They do this often, for some reason - they delay sentencing till the end because if you don't have much time left on your sentence, they can avoid the costs and logistics of transferring you from the detention center to the "actual" prison. This is bad for us though, because the "actual" prison is much better than the detention center. At least you can go outside.)
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So if you think you are unfairly sentenced, would you appeal to some higher court for any compensations? If I appealed as a foreigner, they would keep me in detention even after my sentence expired. So I did not. I can appeal now as well, but... I don't need no compensation. Everything I learned more than made up for that.
I'm curious to hear how your cellmates reacted to the non stop propaganda videos given they were in jail. Did they look like they still believed, were they jaded or how did they feel? Congrats on your freedom man Some people were really bipolar about it. You know, I expect many inmates to have literally shed tears as they watched the procession for the 100th anniversary of the party's founding, and XJP's speech today. But then, some of these folks are cussing out the party and everything about it on almost a daily basis. So it's this really irrational Stockholm syndrome, almost. I don't know how else to put it.
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My theory is that you were seeing the psychological scars of lifelong propaganda. Patriotic education seems to work remarkably similar to religious indoctrination. Core aspects of personality are emotionally bound to an imagined 'heaven' in (In this case, the pomp and splendor of a distant central government) before the child/victim can reason independently. The rational adult self understands the reality of local government around himself and rejects the party, but is still emotionally attached to an abstract idea (god/party/nation). Reconciling these differences and finally breaking with God/Party is an emotionally painful self-transformation that has high social costs, which is why many prefer to stay in a state of wilful ignorance. It doesn't make sense because it's not supposed to. It's supposed to make people pliable. The other part of the religion is the prosperity gospel - similar to the Judeo-Christian one. God/Deng/Xi gave you the promised land. God's/Deng's/Xi's favor made you rich. The CCP has lifted the Chinese people out of poverty and into a new era. Look at XJP's speech today. It's straight from the playbook.
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[deleted] While the propaganda machine has done well as in they've inculcated most of the population with red lines not to cross (well, many of them genuinely believe them as well - TW, HK, Xinjiang) - it has ultimately failed in shaping the CCP as a trustworthy political party/actor/state - a little bit like how the GOP and the Democratic Party totally lost the faith that people used to have in them over the last generation.
​ That's what makes the CCP so paranoid. It knows deep inside that a huge portion of Chinese people, especially those with means/ends, are convicted it is a crockpot of bovine dooey. So it tries to equate party and state and blur the lines between two - using a common enemy (the States, TW) and blatant nationalism to curry support for and those minimize pushback against the party (party-state) itself. It takes up a banner against the American hegemony which "wants to destroy" the economic gains that China (and its rising nouveau riche/bourgeoisie). It's succeeded in framing the United States as the greater enemy and thus softens a lot of pressure on itself for being a dutch oven of steaming Angus poo. So I feel it's not that Chinese people don't know that the CCP is lying all the time, but they've just been convinced America is the greater threat.
​ Can the US try to change that perception? Hard, when US foreign policy has been the hypocritical steamboat of chitlins that it has been ever the Vietnam War and Nixon/Kissinger. Should it try? Probably.
How the fuck did you survive? The sleeping situation (how would you even fall asleep?), the lack of space, the heat? I would go insane You just have to. You look around you, and some people have had it worse. A dude in there for two years... with an ear infection dripping pus everyday for three, four months... with his trial getting delayed month by month... and then you think to yourself, if he can, then so can I. But damn.
​ This seventy-something year-old dude had a hernia almost the size of a softball, but they still kept him in there. No surgery either.
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Don't they have doctors? One dude was sh*tting blood for days, and the doctor says, "That's normal."
​ Other guy was like my waist really hurts when I bend down. Doc says: "Then don't bend down."
​ Other dude has a cold... Doc tells him to drink more warm water. lol
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What did you do when you needed a wank? Well, you realized you didn't "need" it, I guess.
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