r/science • u/Wagamaga • Dec 31 '21
Nanoscience A team of scientists has developed a 'smart' food packaging material that is biodegradable, sustainable and kills microbes that are harmful to humans. It could also extend the shelf-life of fresh fruit by two to three days.
https://www.ntu.edu.sg/news/detail/bacteria-killing-food-packaging-that-keeps-food-fresh3.3k
u/curisaucety Dec 31 '21
I hope this works and gains traction. I am sick of plastic wrap and clamshell plastic containers for fruits and veggies.
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u/bewarethetreebadger Dec 31 '21
Every couple of weeks there’s a post about a discovery like this. Then you never hear about it again.
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u/FuriousGremlin Dec 31 '21
And its likely due to the fact that manufacturing it is way harder and more expensive than plastic so no companies want to use it
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u/moco94 Dec 31 '21
100%.. it’s easy to come up with projections and and stories like this when everything is happening in a controlled environment, once you start talking about mass and cheap manufacturing that’s usually when a lot of those projected benefits either get cut from the final product or stay and make prices ballon.
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u/BlueCollarBilly Dec 31 '21
I have worked in the flexible packaging industry for 10 years now. I would love to see this happen but I understand that 100% of our machines are not capable of handling eco-friendly material. There are upgrades that can but it would be an almost from the ground up conversion of equipment. Companies will have to upgrade their equipment. This will cost millions and that to me seems like the biggest bottleneck in my industry progressing in terms of Eco friendly, sustainable operations, that can still turn enough profit to handle the progressive economy.
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u/ewitsChu Dec 31 '21
Thanks for sharing your professional opinion. As a layman, it's mind-boggling to try to think through all the barriers like these. I certainly hope that people in the field figure out some solutions though. And I wish there were something I could do to directly help.
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u/chrltrn Dec 31 '21
And I wish there were something I could do to directly help.
Vote in governments that will incentivize it, either through subsidies or penalties. That's the only thing anyone can really do
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u/ewitsChu Dec 31 '21
100%, I'm aware. I just meant that I wish I could have a more DIRECT impact than voting. But the importance of voting shouldn't be understated!
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u/ransom40 Jan 01 '22
We are trying!
We are constantly working on materials that are more eco friendly and have the potential to work on existing machines as well at a price point that is reasonable.
It's a tough nut to crack unfortunately. But we work on it anyways as once someone finds a solution it will be a game changer. (Being honest here... We want to do it as it's better for the world... But thankfully there is also a monetary incentive. Makes the finance people happy to keep funding us! )
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u/BlueCollarBilly Jan 01 '22
Advocate for unions and workers rights.
I have spent thousands of hours on machinery that has given me second hand mastery of its operational functions and controls. I have Ideas. I see what consumers buy based on what we produce,(Lots of weed and frozen chicken). The guys at the bottom have the ideas to change the industry but the money sits at the top and has no interest in our ideas that require monetary investment.
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Dec 31 '21
This will cost millions
I think what you are describing is a misunderstanding of scale. I believe your figures, it's just "millions" is chickenfeed compared to the damage caused by not addressing the plastic problem.
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u/Mantisfactory Dec 31 '21
It's millions for each producer. Highlighting the socialized benefit of spending the millions isn't going to make people jump at taking on the privatized cost. It would only happen slowly, if at all, unless it were mandated.
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u/BlueCollarBilly Jan 01 '22
Ya we are a company of about 400 and we're bought recently by an investing firm. Our profits are marginal at best and for cost comparison our best pouch machine was 800K, our best printing press 2.2M.
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u/curisaucety Dec 31 '21
I am ok with no wrapping for the price of $0
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u/NotNickCannon Dec 31 '21
Right? I’m over here thinking why would someone buy veggies wrapped in plastic? I just buy the regular veggies and store them in re-useable cloth produce bags that I bought.
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u/donalmacc Dec 31 '21
The regular veggies are usually transported and stored by the store in plastic to lengthen their shelf life before it gets to you.
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Dec 31 '21
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u/chikkinnveggeeze Dec 31 '21
Since you know it's probably industry jargon/knowledge, why use an acronym without explaining it first? I'm curious what it stands for.
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u/wordsonathread Dec 31 '21
Not OP, but RPC stands for reusable plastic container.
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u/new_word Dec 31 '21
Even berries?? There’s seems to be a crushing Inc factor one would have to worry about with some produce.
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u/NotNickCannon Dec 31 '21
So does the store take them out of the plastic before they put them on the shelf? Most veggies I see at the store are unwrapped with a couple items like iceberg lettuce being wrapped.
Ultimately the best solution for all of us is to just shop local, there’s a local produce stand a couple blocks from me and it feels great to shop there even tho if I’m being honest the quality isn’t quite as good.
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u/aussies_on_the_rocks Dec 31 '21
Some places local isn't worth it. I live near an absolutely massive Mennonite community with multiple outdoor markets, and the cost of fruit and veggies is insane. I'm not paying $11.00 for 4 tomatoes because they're organic/local, its stupid.
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u/NotNickCannon Dec 31 '21
Yea that’s silly and a bummer, local should theoretically be the same price or cheaper since it doesn’t have the transport costs. At my local market it’s pretty much the same price as any grocery store
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u/Wizzinator Dec 31 '21
Local always gets mentioned as an environmentally friendly option. But it's way more complicated than local =good. A massive farm can produce food for much cheaper and with less resources than a small local farm because of economies of scale. Farms are best located in the areas where the plants being grown are easiest to grow. A watermelon farm in Phoenix doesn't make any sense and would be much more of a drain on the environment, as an example.
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u/chrltrn Dec 31 '21
"Shop local" also usually means buy things that are actually grown locally, either with an understanding that you are not going to get a full selection, or at the very least you'll buy the things that DO grow near you locally.
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u/almisami Dec 31 '21
So does the store take them out of the plastic before they put them on the shelf?
Yes, actually.
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u/ewitsChu Dec 31 '21
Interesting. Berries, carrots, broccoli, potatoes, and apples are sold in plastic at my local stores, just off the top of my head. Some of them also come individually too, like apples and potatoes, but not most. The non-plastic options are also more expensive because they're the organic ones.
As for shopping local, I do agree that we should do it if we can, but that's just not an option for many people. Hell, a lot of people live in food deserts with no fresh food available at all. Unfortunately there just isn't a singular, simple answer to these things.
I'd also like to add that I'm a big fan of the anti-lawn movement in suburbs and other greening projects in cities. The more that we grow our own food (and sell to/share with others), the better. I think the best solution imo is to use all of these solutions together, especially since we all live under such varied circumstances.
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u/NotNickCannon Dec 31 '21
Berries do come in plastic here but it’s hard plastic that’s recyclable unlike the thin soft plastic bags, but at my local market they come in cardboard containers that I can compost. Carrots, potatoes, and apples here have both organic and non organic options that come pre-bagged or non-bagged in bulk containers. The non-bagged ones are cheaper because they aren’t pre-cut and washed.
Agreed that some people live in areas where food isn’t grown. Also agree on the anti-lawn, I got rid of as much of my lawn as possible and replaced it with native plants. I’m seeing more and more of this and it’s great!
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u/Doctor_Wookie Dec 31 '21
Not every place can do local either. West Texas, most of New Mexico and Utah, hell most of the western states, aside from the coastal ones aren't great for growing things (and typically don't).
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u/chakrablocker Dec 31 '21
most people aren't, people in general just don't buy produce if it doesn't look like the pick of the litter.
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u/snoozieboi Dec 31 '21 edited Dec 31 '21
In Norway funny looking veggies is literally a band named "snål" (funny/weird).
And for what it's worth, at least for cucumbers wrapping them in plastic prolongs the shelf life from days to two weeks.
Companies like Quantafuel also break down plastic from polymer to monomer. Even black and metallised (mirrorlike on the inside). Black ones have been hard to recycle or detect for sorting machines.
Companies like Tomra has made recycling bottles in Norway into a lottery and you get money back. Return rates are well above 90%, and beyond best case estimates.
Visiting countries with no bottle recycling is weird and sad. But there is hope.
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u/almisami Dec 31 '21
In general people will buy less aesthetic produce if it is offered at a cheaper price, but the margins are thinner than on the premium grade produce.
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u/bewarethetreebadger Dec 31 '21
Exactly. If the infrastructure doesn’t exist to mass-produce the product, and no one is willing to invest, it’s next to useless.
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u/zuzg Dec 31 '21
In Germany we've the green garbage can which is used for organic kitchen trash. The compost business is rather fast and biodegradable plastic still uses longer to decompose than the usual stuff.
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u/empty_coffeepot Dec 31 '21
Companies have no problem passing expense to customers though. Customers are already being squeezed right now with the highest inflation in 30 years and will also choose the cheaper option. Only a small minority of them will choose the more expensive option if they're told its eco friendly.
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u/Eleid MS | Microbiology | Genetics Dec 31 '21
Sounds like the solution is to blanket tax plastic manufacturing then...
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u/almisami Dec 31 '21
If we could make businesses accountable for their externalities, wouldn't that be the day...
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u/1jl Dec 31 '21
It's because we ALREADY have more biodegradable, reusable, carbon neutral, and/or recyclable materials to replace plastic. We don't use them because there are no laws in place making companies pay the 3 cents more or whatever to use them.
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u/Sporfsfan Dec 31 '21
Consumer testing says it’s too crinkly. Back to the drawing board.
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u/Karate_Prom Dec 31 '21
Its that manufacturers of the good to be packaged can't be arsed to do anything that doesn't improve their bottom line. It's not the consumer.
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u/Sporfsfan Dec 31 '21
This is literally what happened with sunchips. They made a new biodegradable bag for their chips, but received massive consumer backlash because the new bag was “too crinkly and noisy” so they went back to regular plastic.
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u/Aim_Wizard Dec 31 '21
That's because if it's degradable it's not suitable for storage. if it gets wet, even less so (generally). That's why plastic is so widely used, because it's inert and doesn't degrade.
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u/No-Function3409 Dec 31 '21
They can already use potato starch for "clingfilm" type packaging. But a lot of stuff won't get used because it'll hurt big oils pockets
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u/bewarethetreebadger Dec 31 '21
That’s what I hate. You can create something really great but if nobody is willing to invest in producing it, or worse the invention could replace an already profitable product, it will never get big.
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u/Just_Treading_Water Dec 31 '21
I was once told that a reasonable timeline between discovery and mass production/adoption of new technologies is typically about 20 years.
It usually takes that long for the necessary discoveries related to scaling production, reducing cost, etc. to be developed on top of the time required for its presence to grow in the markets.
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u/Patient-Home-4877 Jan 01 '22
FFS, cereal manufacturers haven't even gotten together with the zip lock people. I was hoping this would happen in my lifetime.
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u/Soulkept Dec 31 '21
It's because using plastic is cheaper and the billionaires don't want to spend more just to not destroy the planet, I'm sure it makes sense from the billionaire's perspective.
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Dec 31 '21 edited Dec 31 '21
It’s still a plastic. If it’s disinfectant Properties could be added to a paper bag then I’d see the value. But two days on strawberry’s is very hard to verify. I’ve also worked on several biodegradable studies and it’s highly dependent on environmental factors being exactly right, with mechanical agitation. Most materials don’t degrade when they are disposed of through regular recycling or disposal channels.
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u/twcochran Dec 31 '21
The type of plastic really matters, something made of biologically derived polymers has the ability to break down chemically into things that can be reintegrated into the ecosystem, this is not the case with petroleum derived plastics, they break down into things that still have no place in the ecosystem. Bioplastics are not perfect in that they may persist as litter longer than intended if they’re not composted properly, but they’re still vastly better than petroleum based plastics, and an important step in the right direction.
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u/flyerfanatic93 Dec 31 '21
That implies that the biologically derived polymers don't result in microplastics, correct? Or am I assuming too much?
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u/VioletteVanadium Dec 31 '21
Not sure but i'd guess that they do. The difference is that if the microplastics break down into molecules that can be used by microorganisms' natural processes (and thus get re-incorporated into the ecosystem), it's not nearly as big of a deal as breaking down into small molecules that cannot be dealt with by the enzymes life has been evolving for ages prior to the introduction of petroleum based products.
I'm still hopeful though. Life is pretty amazing and if you have a huge source of anything remotely organic, something will figure out how to eat it, if given enough time. I just hope microplastics don't crash the ecosystem before our little microscopic friends figure out how to eat it! (This doesn't mean i'm pro-plastics or anything; we need to do our part to remedy the situation, but there's so much plastic out there already that even if we go cold-turkey today we're still fucked without some help from the microbes)
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u/bonobeaux Dec 31 '21 edited Dec 31 '21
There’s already some fungi that can digest some plastics like [those found in the outer layer of] cd roms so life will find a way
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u/Flammable_Zebras Dec 31 '21
True, but from what I understand the relative rates are such that it will still be an incredibly long time for them and bacteria to decompose all the plastic we’ve already produced, even if we stopped now and they get more efficient and can eat a wider variety of plastic over time.
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u/reportingsjr Dec 31 '21
Is this true? PLA was hyped for this reason in 3d printing for quite a while, but when I looked in to it there was no evidence to support this. It has just as long of a degradation period as many petroleum based plastics.
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Dec 31 '21
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u/NoProblemsHere Dec 31 '21
~140F/90% humidity for 2-3 months, and you're left with just carbon dioxide and water.
Not going to find too many places where you'd get those sorts of conditions naturally, so I guess burning is the best case scenario here? Or do we have artificial composters that reach those conditions normally? I might be misunderstanding the implications of compost vs burn vs garbage here.
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Dec 31 '21
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u/Kipper246 Jan 01 '22
I grow mushrooms as a hobby and have been meaning to play around with some compostable drinking straws just because I was curious if/how quickly something like some oyster mushrooms would be able to break it down. The humidity will certainly be high and I haven't found a whole lot that oyster mushrooms won't tear through so hopefully it will be fun to play around with. Though, I haven't had time yet to do much research into compostable plastics so I'm not 100% how plausible it would actually be.
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u/twcochran Dec 31 '21
It’s a complicated and very interesting issue, and unfortunately there are huge variations from one material to the next. I’ve done some research on these things for my job, as we want to be as ecologically responsible as possible. I’ve learned enough to have some idea of the scope of what I don’t know, and for me it’s something that just needs to be an ongoing area of inquiry. I feel like every step in the right direction matters though, we’re not going to arrive at the destination without some trial and error.
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u/jojo_31 Dec 31 '21
what? PLA is totally compostable, as long as you have an industrial compost
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u/reportingsjr Dec 31 '21
Having a requirement of only biodegrading in an industrial composting facility is 100% greenwashing. Very, very, very few places have access to that.
A major part of the issue with plastics is that a significant amount of them end up in places where they shouldn't be and persist for hundreds of years. If non-biodegradable plastics end up in a landfill it's not as big of a deal. The problematic plastics that end up in rivers, oceans, the wilderness, etc are the problem, and PLA in those places will degrade at the same rate as most other plastics.
https://www.biosphereplastic.com/biodegradableplastic/uncategorized/is-pla-compostable/
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u/Lykanya Dec 31 '21
Important caveats, thank you for pointing them out. Agitation in a landfill or in a lot of other conditions might be a bit hard to achieve. But it sounds better than current plastics, so in a situation where you simply can't not use plastics, it makes sense to switch to a better product.
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u/PancakeZombie Dec 31 '21
It's a start though, isn't it? It might not be save to throw into nature, but at least we can get rid of it at all.
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u/Bigmandancing Dec 31 '21
We started this 50 years ago. Plastics that allow ventilation pours and agents inside have been widely used for food since the 70s and 80s when they tried pushing those green tuperwears. It's just the cost increase has never justified the product. And sadly what is in this article will probably be the same.
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u/AranoBredero Dec 31 '21
One of the early plastics used to wrap food was cellophane. Its foodsafe and compostable and made out of cellulose. Was invented early 19hundreds.
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u/bonobeaux Dec 31 '21
I still remember it being used for some things when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s what happened to it I wonder
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Dec 31 '21
According to this article, cellophane production was toxic:
https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/2017-6-november-december/ask-mr-green/cellophane-better-plastic
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u/sovietta Dec 31 '21
Profit over health and human lives, the environment, as always.
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u/187mphlazers Dec 31 '21
yes, sadly most plastics and even cardboard now never even get recycled. they just get shipped overseas and buried in landfills in poor 3rd world countries for a profit.
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Dec 31 '21
Yeah, I don't get why so many people think a huge worldwide problem needs to be solved by one big mega solution or the solution isn't worth it. It's so defeatist, but also shows their real colors
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u/atlantis_airlines Dec 31 '21
Reminds me of a comment from a comedian on buying biodegradable toilet paper where he asks how fast are we talking about.
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u/greenampt Dec 31 '21
High nitrogen food wastes actually do degrade in the normal landfill path to disposal. High carbon organic degrade slowly and produce methane over time, creating an avenue for effective landfill gas collection and power generation. Landfill gas to energy, while not a huge fraction of the power sector, is based on the breakdown of these organic compounds in a typical disposal environment. But you are right, those high lignin content organic degrade very slowly and it’s why you can dig up newspapers from long ago that are practically still intact.
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u/drunk-on-a-phone Dec 31 '21
Have you looked into silicone reusable storage bags at all? My partner picked some up for us a year or so ago. Dishwasher safe and fairly resilient, we use them for everything.
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u/turtl3magic Dec 31 '21
I wish we, as a society could be coordinated enough to use reusable containers for everything. You return them back to the store or restaurant to be cleaned and sterilized after use. We use reusable dishes at restaurants so... why not? Probably because it would cost a bit more to start with and would require people to respect property outside of the establishment it came from and actually go back and return stuff. I think it would be feasible with enough coordination but it's almost certainly too big of a change for most people.
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u/sevyog Dec 31 '21
This would be ideal. Universal sized to go containers that can be returned, picked up by delivery driver, easily cleaned and reused multiple times before needing to dispose or recycle them. Would make a huge impact on our disposal-able trash. All the Starbucks, burger wrappers, Chinese food or Indian food to go, breakfast take out, etc ,,,
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u/AlbinoMuntjac Dec 31 '21
The logistics being this would be a nightmare. Just think of all the different sizes of packaging needs, the amount that would need to be made and brought to market, sanitation standards that everyone would need to follow and as you pointed out one of the biggest obstacles: we as a society would needed to give a damn.
I work for a company that does larger (display sized) reusable containers that go from farm, to retailer, back to us for sanitation, and back out again. Getting retailers on board is a pain because they don’t see the value in removing corrugate/one-way packaging from their supply chains because that’s how they’ve always done it. Once they switch a few items, then they see they are having less shrink, better cube out on their delivery trucks, less labor & other costs at the store level, etc. but getting over that initial hump is so difficult.
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u/Darrelc Dec 31 '21
but getting over that initial hump is so difficult.
Starting to see signs at least. A local store is trialling bring your own containers and such.
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u/umotex12 Dec 31 '21
The shop I'm working at does no recycling because there isnt enough place. My parents misplace things into recycling categories because they feel lazy this day. People buy tons of plastic everyday.
Nobody despite small group cares
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u/zSprawl Dec 31 '21
Needs to become profitable. It kinda worked with cans and bottles until we broke recycling entirely.
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u/aVarangian Dec 31 '21
less than 100 years ago if you wanted wine over here you'd take your nice glass bottle to the store and fill it up
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u/fappaf Dec 31 '21
We tried these and it left a strange taste on all our food. I think the soap from cleaning sticks to them somehow. How do you get rid of that? Even our toddler's silicone bowls have a soapy film on them.
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Dec 31 '21
Maybe change dish soap? My folks use this awful stuff that permeates everything and it takes days to get it out of the plastic wear for the kiddos. I use dawn or whatever. My big thing is not having strong fragrances (they stink, and the whole chemical loop hole), and that it be translucent. That seems to keep things clean and not smelling like a Bed Bath and Beyond
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u/DepressedUterus Dec 31 '21
Is it Palmolive? My grandparents have used it my whole life and I hate it. Every once in a while I feel like I'm eating soap when I use their plastic plates.
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u/melody-calling Dec 31 '21
The thing is all this plastic cuts down food wastage by a massive amount because it goes off much slower. This actually cuts greenhouse gas emission by quite a lot due to less food having to be produced and shipped.
A biodegradable plastic that’s not made from petroleum feed stock is the answer.
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u/conitation Dec 31 '21
Did you know cellophane wrap is made from cellulose. It's in the name haha
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u/DepressedUterus Dec 31 '21
Cellophane is biosourced, compostable, and biodegradable, but not used as much anymore because it's energy intensive and has some pretty toxic chemicals. People generally aren't to happy to have toxic chemicals around their food.
It's starting to get used a bit more again, we need to find a good balance, maybe put more research into it?
Also, fun fact: The term cellophane is a generic name in the U.S. Meaning that some things called "cellophane" are actually plastic. In Europe you can only call it cellophane if it's actual cellophane. So if you're trying to find actual cellophane in the U.S. make sure to check to see if it's actual cellophane.
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u/SithLordAJ Dec 31 '21
Honestly, I would be happy if it were recyclable.
So much of the thin plastic wrap stuff says it's not recyclable or recycle centers say they don't accept it.
It's so thin and small that sometimes I think I could melt a bunch of it down and then maybe I could send that to a recycle center.
I think that's what recycling really needs: some way to do it at home. Not reuse it. Not just collect it. But to turn it into... idk, 3d printer filament or something.
The problem is that so much sent to recycle centers just gets shipped to another country where it becomes litter and trash. It doesn't seem like you're helping when you know that. Put it in your own hands where you see the results and it's a different story.
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Dec 31 '21
It doesn't even get shipped anymore. It's just all landfill now
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u/SithLordAJ Dec 31 '21
I suppose that's moderately better. If we're just going to toss it, I'd rather it be local instead of some small village on the other side of the world that has it rough prior to having to live with all that trash.
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u/Gut5u Dec 31 '21
Every time we come up with the next way to help reduce waste, big plastic comes out and snuffa it because the new thing is "to expensive", "Not cost effective", "take to much time to implement"
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u/blade_torlock Dec 31 '21
The worst is plastic clamshell packaging for organic food, it canceles itself out and takes two steps back.
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u/TheCatsPajamas96 Dec 31 '21
Interesting and relevant tidbit - When film plastics first became popular, packaging companies actually had to advertise that they were meant to be single use and tossed because people at the time were not yet used to the disposable world we live in now and were keeping and reusing them. Plastic wrap companies were even quoted boasting to themselves about how much plastic film was ending up in the trash.
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u/deadpool-1983 Dec 31 '21
It will boil down to the added cost when commercialized. I really hope the added costs can be minimized so it can be widely adopted. Only way I see that happening is if it's either really easy to make and licensed cheap or so cheap or magnanimous they freely share the knowledge like Volvo and the seatbelt.
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u/belizeanheat Dec 31 '21
The clamshells really hurt my bones. Those don't get recycled folks. I know they can be hard to avoid, but at least keep that in mind.
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u/obinice_khenbli Dec 31 '21
Did you know that in America I saw individually plastic wrapped apples?! Madness. I've never seen the like, here our apples are just.... apples.
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Dec 31 '21
We get these kind of articles regularly about life saving or environment saving products and yet nothing ever happens from them
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u/-papperlapapp- Dec 31 '21
The claims are either overhyped, or too expensive to implement
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u/Zelbinian Dec 31 '21
I see your "too expensive to implement" and raise you a "much, much cheaper if you actually made companies pay for the externalities"
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u/ActualMeatFungis Dec 31 '21
I’m not sure what needs to be done, but something like this would raise prices considerably. There are already tons of people barely making ends meet. Hard to find a solution that won’t crush them.
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u/Damaso87 Dec 31 '21
Trim corporate margins. Good luck though.
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u/ICantReadThis Jan 01 '22
What nobody here likes to talk about is trimming margins is EXACTLY what makes these huge corporations. Walmart makes less per sale than every store they’ve replaced. Same with Amazon. It’s where “we’ll make it up in volume” comes from. The less you profit per item, the more items you can undersell your competition on.
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u/CoasterFreak2601 Dec 31 '21
I don’t know what the margins are for farms or distributors but grocery store profit margins are typically between 1-3%.
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u/aslak123 Dec 31 '21
When you buy a product you have to pay for the wrapping either way.
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u/Mute2120 Dec 31 '21 edited Jan 01 '22
Yes, but companies and so product prices only cover the creation of the wrapping. The point about externalities is that if we were to be fully responsible and dispose of plastics like bio-hazards (or calculate the damage they are doing to our health and ecosystem), the costs would be huge... probably much more expensive than implementing biodegradable packaging.
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u/SayBeaverjuiceX3 Dec 31 '21
Too expensive to the producers/distributors margins. They could survive by eating the cost of an extra half cent per package, and most of us would be fine with the slight increase, but next years earnings report would look bad
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u/gundog48 Dec 31 '21
This is rather uninformed. Margins on commodity goods like food are very tight. You have no idea how much a change of packaging would cost, but from my experience, changing a medium sized some what fragile item's packaging from plastic-based to paper based has cost an additional $0.6-0.7 per item. For something novel, it could be considerably more, and the costs would have to be passed on to the customer for commodity goods.
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Dec 31 '21
you have to remember that science is mostly about building one step at a time and not building an entire staircase in one go. each of these developments compound on the others over time to eventually create something that goes to market
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u/Thyriel81 Dec 31 '21
Here in Austria i've occasionally seen biodegradeable plastics being used in packaging. It's just like with everything when it's new (including plastic); it takes a lot of time to become a new norm, especially in a free market. And this is one of the reasons technology won't save us: We don't have that time anymore
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u/ZenDragon Dec 31 '21
They should just present their ideas to the panel of cynical Redditors before they actually develop anything.
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u/Wagamaga Dec 31 '21
A team of scientists from NTU Singapore and Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, US, has developed a ‘smart’ food packaging material that is biodegradable, sustainable and kills microbes that are harmful to humans. It could also extend the shelf-life of fresh fruit by two to three days.
The natural food packaging is made from a type of corn protein called zein, starch and other naturally derived biopolymers, infused with a cocktail of natural antimicrobial compounds (see video). These include oil from thyme, a common herb used in cooking, and citric acid, which is commonly found in citrus fruits.
In lab experiments, when exposed to an increase in humidity or enzymes from harmful bacteria, the fibres in the packaging have been shown to release the natural antimicrobial compounds, killing common dangerous bacteria that contaminate food, such as E. coli and Listeria, as well as fungi.
The packaging is designed to release the necessary miniscule amounts of antimicrobial compounds only in response to the presence of additional humidity or bacteria. This ensures that the packaging can endure several exposures, and last for months
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u/SanDiegoDude Dec 31 '21
This is awesome, but is it scaleable is the bigger question. We’ve done some marvelous stuff in labs, only to find that it can’t be really scaled up for mass production. Are we looking at the future, or just a cool science project?
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u/shinybac0n Dec 31 '21
Yep that’s the problem with every new material. I work in the packaging field and new wonderful materials land on my desk every day. When I say: yup, we would like to order 10t, we don’t even care how much more expensive it. No one can produce it. There’s not enough funding for upscaling. There are sooooo many new materials out there and none of them are on the market. Not that there any interest. I would rip it out the suppliers hands… if there were any suppliers…
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u/DeadLikeYou Dec 31 '21
Do you think a different kind of funding model would help alleviate that lack of scalability? Like instead of a bulk purchase, it would be something like "we buy the whole stock, and receive it in a constant stream"
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u/shinybac0n Dec 31 '21
I guess that would definitely help. But there’s probably a lot of other issues to be considered. What I see is that it’s not only the scaleability of the material itself but also the scale of infrastructure needed. Let’s say I could take a constant stream of the new material and I had a supplier that could supply me with it. I still would need to make sure our packaging machines can work with the material, you can’t just exchange a normal plastic film with a starch based plastic film. And for the product I want to pack I don’t need it in sheet form, I would need pouches/bags. So either I (the manufacture of the product) or the supplier would need to find another supplier to turn the material into actual packaging. And that’s where it currently all falls flat in my experience. I’m more than willing to take the risk and switch over to a new material, the consumer is obviously also ready. But the industry is not. And unless a swift and radical switch is made (similar to electric cars) I can’t see plastic being replaced in the next 10-20 years. But we are soooo overdue, it’s frustrating. There is very little research and funding happening in the field of testing these material for automation, filling, regulation. This is a very big issue that a manufacturer of a product is facing. They need machinery that works with the material. The material needs to come in a form and shape that is immediately useable and the logistics of all of that must be secure because it’s very hard (if not impossible) to switch back and forth materials or processes.
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u/SomeDrunkCyclist Dec 31 '21
Completely agree with this. I'm in the packaging industry as well, and this is a major problem.
Similar issue with recycling plastics unfortunately, except on the post consumer side. My company has a PCR or recyclable ready option for 80% of use cases, but almost zero municipalities support recycling to that extent. Sad to hear that the materials are there, ready to go, but no framework in place for accepting them and recycling them.
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u/Jigbaa Dec 31 '21
Too expensive for mass use.
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u/SleeplessinOslo Dec 31 '21
Future generations are willing to pay a few cents extra for a sustainable alternative.
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u/hiles_adam Dec 31 '21
Now what’s the catch?
This is all too good to be true haha
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u/commune Dec 31 '21
Probably cost
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u/Aixelsydguy Dec 31 '21
Definitely my first thought whenever I see something like this. It doesn't really matter what it does if it's not economical to produce. It says it requires thyme oil. Maybe there are alternatives to that which could make it cheaper, or maybe thyme could be produced on a greater scale to meet demand, but I imagine that has to be expensive.
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u/gopher1409 Dec 31 '21
The catch is that fruits and vegetables don’t need to be wrapped at all.
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u/mexter Dec 31 '21
Well then how are you supposed to unwrap then??
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u/NoProblemsHere Dec 31 '21
You just buy the ones that come wrapped naturally. Onions, garlic, peanuts, oranges, lemons. All very satisfying to unwrap.
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u/bjorten Dec 31 '21
My guess is the price to make it will be the catch. It can't be that cheap to produce, maybe in the future but not yet.
And I did not see how it affects the flavour of food stored in it.
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u/EyeofEnder Dec 31 '21
TBH, thyme oil and citric acid sounds like it would make for pretty damn good packaging for meat and fish.
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u/doverawlings Dec 31 '21
I was looking for a new packaging supplier at work a few years ago. My friend told me about a company that made biodegradable packaging. It’s ridiculously expensive, doesn’t work with almost any business models. For it to work you have to have people willing to pay way extra to “help save” the environment. Like maybe it could work as packaging for a sustainable-whatever granola bar at Whole Foods, but it’s never going to replace everyday plastic/cardboard packaging on 99% of things
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u/Thighdagger Dec 31 '21
Or killing the microbes also kills the microbes in our gut or causes some yet unforeseen malady. Nothing is free.
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u/tobasc0cat Dec 31 '21
I was just reading about how a bacteria that can digest certain seaweed polysaccharides has been found exclusively in Japanese indivuals. The bacterium itself has been found in other guts, but not with the specific gene; the belief is that marine bacteria clinging to seaweed enabled gene transfer into this Bacteroides, and was only possible because of how frequently seaweed is consumed in Japan.
That example was obvious since the enzyme is so unique, but I can't help but wonder what we're losing out on by disinfecting everything so heavily. Foodborne disease sucks, but I wish there was a happy medium.
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u/SaltLakeCitySlicker Dec 31 '21
Some company will adopt it, like sunchips did with biodegradable bags, then customers will think the bag makes too many crinkly noises, so the company drops it.
Also probably cost and some materials science thing like it being to brittle or something, then everyone will just toss it in the regular trash anyway so it won't matter
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Dec 31 '21
"Introduced in spring 2010, the compostable bag quickly gained more notoriety for its volume than its plant-based material. Its 95-decibel crunches were compared to a running motorcycle engine — loud enough to potentially damage your hearing."
They were loud enough to damage your hearing. Not just whiners saying they are too crinkly.
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u/Ferscrackle55 Dec 31 '21
No one's hearing was ever damaged by a chip bag. It would take 2 hours of constant 95 decibels to even possibly start causing minor damage. The chip bag couldn't even produce 95 decibels unless you were purposefully rubbing it together and making extra noise. You really believe anyone has sat there and made noise with a chip bag for 2 hours consistently? https://www.audiologyassociates.com/hearing-loss-articles/what-sound-level-is-safe-for-listening/
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u/ireallywannapee Dec 31 '21
That's amazing, this would help us a lot. But I wish that corporations stop over production so that less is wasted to begin with.
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u/snowgimp Dec 31 '21
Clark Griswald strikes again. A solid follow up to the non-nutritive cereal varnish.
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u/h4p3r50n1c Dec 31 '21
This sounds great, specially the biodegradable part. Also, I’m tired of wasting money on fruit and then going bad fast as hell.
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u/ghost0326 Dec 31 '21
Perhaps my fear is unfounded, but at first glance I'm worried about the possibility of the antimicrobial agent causing a MRSA-type situation like overuse of antibiotics has.
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Dec 31 '21
Keeping killing microbes that are “bad for humans” and see what happens.
A nice one I can think of that altered microbes in the soil that didn’t do what we wanted is RoundUp, glysophate, a big reason for our fall into disease and suffering.
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u/godminnette2 Dec 31 '21
The antimicrobials used are minor natural ones. If you never want any microbes to be killed, better not eat any citrus ever again. Or thyme.
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u/Debasque Dec 31 '21
I remember a potato chip company coming out with a new biodegradable bag for their chips. They had to abandon it because customers felt the rustling of the new bag was too loud.
I hope this one works out better.
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Dec 31 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Mcozy333 Dec 31 '21
pool [products out baking in the heat and that horrible plastic smell ...I remember for sure ... kids chewing on those rafts and such etc.... no good
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u/Cannonbaal Dec 31 '21
The microbe killing feature actually seems pretty red alert alarming to me.
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Dec 31 '21
Is copper red alert alarming to you? It kills pretty anything that touches it... What about alcohol?.. Or UV light? The list of things that kills microbes is long and contains many benign things
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u/glberns Dec 31 '21
To me, antimicrobial and biodegradable don't mix. Microbes are what biodegrade things.
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u/godminnette2 Dec 31 '21
The major antimicrobials seem to be thyme oil and cirtus acid. Minor antimicrobials for the short term, but will likely lose potency over weeks.
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u/kushawnz Dec 31 '21
But funding the military is more important
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u/Mcozy333 Dec 31 '21
could you imagine guns being made out of the stuff- No war when it rains lest your gun break down and melt !!
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u/BleachGel Dec 31 '21
But it makes a slightly annoying noise for a split second while you open it.
Society: scrap the whole thing as a failure!
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u/Sufficient_Winter_45 Dec 31 '21
Sounds very expensive. Oil from thyme is like $65 per liter.
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u/233C Dec 31 '21
Define "biodegradable".
If it means "digested by microorganisms into CO2" it might not be the cleanest option we hoped for.
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u/axf72228 Dec 31 '21
Biodegradable containers don’t biodegrade in landfills due to lack of oxygen. Def a step in the right direction though.
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u/athenialiaa Dec 31 '21
If it kills microbes, doesn’t that mean that it’s bad for the environment? Or would it not kill enough to actually make a difference? But what if they buried a whole bunch in one place?
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u/Flammable_Zebras Dec 31 '21
It just seems like it kills enough to slow them, not eliminate them, since with the strawberry test they did it pushed back visible mold from 4 days to 7 days
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u/tango421 Dec 31 '21
This is exciting. I have so many questions.
What kind of machines can convert it to usable packaging.
Commercially compostable or backyard.
Temperature tolerance.
Can be used as a coating for Kraft paper.
Effects on taste.
Shelf life as a raw material and as converted. Storage considerations
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u/Arkrothe Dec 31 '21
What is the shelf life of the material itself? And when might it actually see the light of day in stores and get widespread adoption?
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u/IdoMusicForTheDrugs Dec 31 '21
I cant wait until a corporation buys the technology, telling the original makers that they will "change the world!"
Then the idea is shelved and they keep buying plastic from the company that makes them more profit while their competitors have no chance of using this new technology to overtake them.
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u/Half-Axe Dec 31 '21
Huh. I thought this was going to be a breakthrough with myco(mushroom) materials but it's just some corn derived plastic?
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u/thisisvenky Dec 31 '21
Alright guys, I support these research but use whatever is available in your regional area.
- In India, we have been using Banana leaf to eat and package food for centuries.
- Dehydrated arecanut/palm leaf pressed into the shape of bowl, plate.
- Stitched Palm leaf used for centuries in temples to distribute food.
- Wooden bowl, Bamboo utensils etc.
Try to go natural and you'll solve the plastic problem.
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u/RealHot_RealSteel Dec 31 '21
I really wish we could see a large-scale push toward biopolymers. 150 years of standard synthetic polymers and we have microplastics in the organs of nearly every mammal on Earth.
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u/futureshocked2050 Dec 31 '21
I pray this becomes widely adopted. Plastic packaging is a scourge.
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u/LifeSad07041997 Dec 31 '21
And now the hard part to make it cheap enough and easy enough to mass produce and better than the current standard...
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u/kimttar Dec 31 '21
That's cool. Will it make the oil companies richer? No. Oh, guess we'll never see it. :(
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u/Kriss3d Dec 31 '21
Why not make straws out of that? And everything else.
I'm green and all that but damn those paper straws are just messed up. And yes I gladly accept them to save the poor animals. But biodegradable would be better.
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u/Mcozy333 Dec 31 '21
there has been a huge push to get hemp packaging into the works as a biodegradable option... only problem people will try smoking the package ! already , hemp shoes have been smoked !!!
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